Posted: 7/5/2011 1:15:08 PM EDT
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My buddy is in IT and says that college degrees don't mean jack and certifications are not much better. Is he just being lazy or is this true? He's not the edumacation type so I think he just doesn't want to sit in a class while some professor who's never been in the real word teaches him.
I'm a CPA and got a boost fro the 50k area to the mid 60's area when I got my certification. (I don't work in public so I don't really use my CPA. I just have nifty letters behind my name.) Best investment ever. |
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If you have at least a good 10 years of verifiable and well referenced experience under your belt, making other people a LOT of money? Nah, they lose some of their luster. Otherwise? Yeah. They help. Not all certs are created equal, however. If there is a CCIE in America making less than $100,000 a year, he's doing so by deliberate choice and/or engaging in acts of charity. |
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Some certifications and various degrees are basically proof that you have mastered a baseline of knowledge for a given task. Extremeley technical certs carry more weight than non technical or entry level certs, i.e. a CISSP is worth more than a Security+. The biggest thing is they establish a baseline of ability on your resume and help you get past the HR drones and into the interview. |
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Quoted: My buddy is in IT and says that college degrees don't mean jack and certifications are not much better. Is he just being lazy or is this true? He's not the edumacation type so I think he just doesn't want to sit in a class while some professor who's never been in the real word teaches him. I'm a CPA and got a boost fro the 50k area to the mid 60's area when I got my certification. (I don't work in public so I don't really use my CPA. I just have nifty letters behind my name.) Best investment ever. Your buddy is pretty much spot on in this day and age. As an IT Director who's worked his way up through the ranks from desktop and router flunkie in the late 80's to my current position, I've done it all and been through it all. I look for experience first, degrees and certs dead last. Any 2-bit bookworm can sit through a class and pass a test. I need to know that, under pressure, you can find the problem and solve it. Certs are about the same. Again, really doesn't mean anything to me when put up against someone who doesn't have the cert, but can sit down with IOS and configure a router correctly. College degrees and certs generally mean that I have to re-train someone and can't count on them to know what to do in a pinch, because they've never done it. 15 years ago it was different with regard to certs. Now all a boatload of certs means is that you have a metric fuckton of time to sit around in a classroom, and probably very little time spent actually putting hands on in a real production environment, or making decisions which contribute to a resolution. Of course, YMMV, and that's not to say that folks with certs and degrees are idiots or incapable. It simply means that when I'm looking to fill a position, I look at experience first, and your degree/cert doesn't get you very far with me. Certs and experience speaks for itself, but again, for me, experience first, certs last. eta: clarity. |
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My buddy is in IT and says that college degrees don't mean jack and certifications are not much better. Is he just being lazy or is this true? He's not the edumacation type so I think he just doesn't want to sit in a class while some professor who's never been in the real word teaches him. I'm a CPA and got a boost fro the 50k area to the mid 60's area when I got my certification. (I don't work in public so I don't really use my CPA. I just have nifty letters behind my name.) Best investment ever. Your buddy is pretty much spot on in this day and age. As an IT Director who's worked his way up through the ranks from desktop and router flunkie in the late 80's to my current position, I've done it all and been through it all. I look for experience first, degrees and certs dead last. Any 2-bit bookworm can sit through a class and pass a test. I need to know that, under pressure, you can find the problem and solve it. Certs are about the same. Again, really doesn't mean anything to me when put up against someone who doesn't have the cert, but can sit down with IOS and configure a router correctly. College degrees and certs generally mean that I have to re-train someone and can't count on them to know what to do in a pinch, because they've never done it. 15 years ago it was different with regard to certs. Now all a boatload of certs means is that you have a metric fuckton of time to sit around in a classroom, and probably very little time spent actually putting hands on in a real production environment, or making decisions which contribute to a resolution. Of course, YMMV, and that's not to say that folks with certs and degrees are idiots or incapable. It simply means that when I'm looking to fill a position, I look at experience first, and your degree/cert doesn't get you very far with me. Certs and experience speaks for itself, but again, for me, experience first, certs last. eta: clarity. This man speaks the truth. Certs matter to me when they are in something specialized...something I specifically need. Beyond that though, experience is the key when I'm looking to hire...Typically I'll take a guy with 5+ years of experience over a person with a buttload of certs. As far as college degrees go, I see them as a plus myself, but not necessarily a requirement. (not an IT Director, just a mere IT Manager) 
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Quoted: Quoted: My buddy is in IT and says that college degrees don't mean jack and certifications are not much better. Is he just being lazy or is this true? He's not the edumacation type so I think he just doesn't want to sit in a class while some professor who's never been in the real word teaches him. I'm a CPA and got a boost fro the 50k area to the mid 60's area when I got my certification. (I don't work in public so I don't really use my CPA. I just have nifty letters behind my name.) Best investment ever. Your buddy is pretty much spot on in this day and age. As an IT Director who's worked his way up through the ranks from desktop and router flunkie in the late 80's to my current position, I've done it all and been through it all. I look for experience first, degrees and certs dead last. Any 2-bit bookworm can sit through a class and pass a test. I need to know that, under pressure, you can find the problem and solve it. Certs are about the same. Again, really doesn't mean anything to me when put up against someone who doesn't have the cert, but can sit down with IOS and configure a router correctly. College degrees and certs generally mean that I have to re-train someone and can't count on them to know what to do in a pinch, because they've never done it. 15 years ago it was different with regard to certs. Now all a boatload of certs means is that you have a metric fuckton of time to sit around in a classroom, and probably very little time spent actually putting hands on in a real production environment, or making decisions which contribute to a resolution. Of course, YMMV, and that's not to say that folks with certs and degrees are idiots or incapable. It simply means that when I'm looking to fill a position, I look at experience first, and your degree/cert doesn't get you very far with me. Certs and experience speaks for itself, but again, for me, experience first, certs last. eta: clarity. +Eleventybillion^23 |
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Yes, Certs absolutely don't hurt, but they are kind of at the bottom of the list when it comes to positives. Your resume and experience will mean much more in terms of getting hired. Even above and beyond your degree as well. The problem with certs is that every IT hiring manager has seen guys (and girls) with certs that couldn't even function well enough to perform the simplest tasks. Or worse, they're an absolute short-bus train wreck in terms of their personality and "soft skills". Unless they're REALLY looking hard for a specific skillset, a candidate who comes across in interviews as smooth, likable, and dependable will get picked over the person who looks better on paper almost every time. Being clean cut and affable in interviews is worth 100x more than any cert.
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| I am 27, I have two semesters worth of college, I have 8 years experience in Small business support "jack of all trades" and 1 year experience as help desk/call center for a very niche proprietary software. I am currently making ~$65k + regular bonuses + yearly ~8% raises + bennies + extra pay for on call. I have zero certifications. I will admit I am very lucky to be where I am at today and that I got my foot in the door working (from the ground up with zero experience) for my dads tech company for those 8 years and then having a friend put in the good word for me at the company that I currently work at. But it does show that you can make a good living in the tech field with no degree and no certs. |
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My buddy is in IT and says that college degrees don't mean jack and certifications are not much better. Is he just being lazy or is this true? He's not the edumacation type so I think he just doesn't want to sit in a class while some professor who's never been in the real word teaches him. I'm a CPA and got a boost fro the 50k area to the mid 60's area when I got my certification. (I don't work in public so I don't really use my CPA. I just have nifty letters behind my name.) Best investment ever. Your buddy is pretty much spot on in this day and age. As an IT Director who's worked his way up through the ranks from desktop and router flunkie in the late 80's to my current position, I've done it all and been through it all. I look for experience first, degrees and certs dead last. Any 2-bit bookworm can sit through a class and pass a test. I need to know that, under pressure, you can find the problem and solve it. Certs are about the same. Again, really doesn't mean anything to me when put up against someone who doesn't have the cert, but can sit down with IOS and configure a router correctly. College degrees and certs generally mean that I have to re-train someone and can't count on them to know what to do in a pinch, because they've never done it. 15 years ago it was different with regard to certs. Now all a boatload of certs means is that you have a metric fuckton of time to sit around in a classroom, and probably very little time spent actually putting hands on in a real production environment, or making decisions which contribute to a resolution. Of course, YMMV, and that's not to say that folks with certs and degrees are idiots or incapable. It simply means that when I'm looking to fill a position, I look at experience first, and your degree/cert doesn't get you very far with me. Certs and experience speaks for itself, but again, for me, experience first, certs last. eta: clarity. lol, that's what he does. He's got about 4 years solid experience. A few years before that of doing this and that and being unemployed half the time. |
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I've seen too many college grads and people with certs that don't know jack. They mean nothing to me. I will hire someone out of high school if they can answer my technical interview questions. I look for the skills they have listed on their resume. If they list they know computers thats not very attractive. But if they have listed knowledge of using Debian to create IPv6 routers and firewalls I might be all over that. Course I'm going to ask them questions on specifics of what they've listed. If you're looking for an IT position in the northern VA area I've been looking to hire people since last fall. -Foxxz |
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At one time, certs were very valuable. The reason? For a time, the only people capable of passing the tests were those who were legitimately bright, and had been at it for a while. For a short time, it was almost assured that a person who possessed an MSCE or a CNE (for example) was the real deal. Hire with confidence. The problem is, tech schools, book publishers and computer learning centers quickly picked up on this, and did a fantastic job of convincing paying students of a false correlation, namely that cert = money. Actually, they recognized a correlation and errantly assigned a cause to it. Tsk tsk. It was the beginning of the end. Prior to this, most certificate holders were very motivated and self taught. The test proved that they knew what they said they knew. Over the course of a few years, schools realized that you could teach to the test. In other words, you could actually teach people to pass a test, rather than teach them how to learn. It took a while for this to be noticed, in my industry. But it happened. Hiring managers continued along as they always did, giving preferential treatment to certificate holders. But this didn't last forever. After a while, they began to realize that these new hires weren't living up to expectations. These new hires had the same certs as the "old school" guys, but weren't performing nearly as well. Oops. And the degradation of the value of most IT certifications has continued unabated, ever since. There are a few exceptions (CCIE comes to mind), but that's what generally happened over the years. |
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Quoted: At one time, certs were very valuable. The reason? For a time, the only people capable of passing the tests were those who were legitimately bright, and had been at it for a while. For a short time, it was almost assured that a person who possessed an MSCE or a CNE (for example) was the real deal. Hire with confidence. The problem is, tech schools, book publishers and computer learning centers quickly picked up on this, and did a fantastic job of convincing paying students of a false correlation, namely that cert = money. Actually, they recognized a correlation and errantly assigned a cause to it. Tsk tsk. It was the beginning of the end. Prior to this, most certificate holders were very motivated and self taught. The test proved that they knew what they said they knew. Over the course of a few years, schools realized that you could teach to the test. In other words, you could actually teach people to pass a test, rather than teach them how to learn. It took a while for this to be noticed, in my industry. But it happened. Hiring managers continued along as they always did, giving preferential treatment to certificate holders. But this didn't last forever. After a while, they began to realize that these new hires weren't living up to expectations. These new hires had the same certs as the "old school" guys, but weren't performing nearly as well. Oops. And the degradation of the value of most IT certifications has continued unabated, ever since. There are a few exceptions (CCIE comes to mind), but that's what generally happened over the years. Yep. I don't even bother anymore. my 12 years gets me farther than certs. |
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Quoted: This right here.At one time, certs were very valuable. The reason? For a time, the only people capable of passing the tests were those who were legitimately bright, and had been at it for a while. For a short time, it was almost assured that a person who possessed an MSCE or a CNE (for example) was the real deal. Hire with confidence. The problem is, tech schools, book publishers and computer learning centers quickly picked up on this, and did a fantastic job of convincing paying students of a false correlation, namely that cert = money. Actually, they recognized a correlation and errantly assigned a cause to it. Tsk tsk. It was the beginning of the end. Prior to this, most certificate holders were very motivated and self taught. The test proved that they knew what they said they knew. Over the course of a few years, schools realized that you could teach to the test. In other words, you could actually teach people to pass a test, rather than teach them how to learn. It took a while for this to be noticed, in my industry. But it happened. Hiring managers continued along as they always did, giving preferential treatment to certificate holders. But this didn't last forever. After a while, they began to realize that these new hires weren't living up to expectations. These new hires had the same certs as the "old school" guys, but weren't performing nearly as well. Oops. And the degradation of the value of most IT certifications has continued unabated, ever since. There are a few exceptions (CCIE comes to mind), but that's what generally happened over the years. Test king pdfs were readily available on shares in the dormitories. Just memorize the answers. Go pay for the test and it was a sure thing. -Foxxz |
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Quoted: No. As a matter of fact, all of my certs have expired (including my CCVP, which I was once very proud of - 100% self study and work experience). Subnet, do you have your CCIE? That is my goal within the next several years. I would actually have to start all over again, if I cared enough to bother. I suppose I could test out again, but there's some pretty arcane knowledge in there that I'm not going to know off the top of my head, without study. What my employers have noticed (especially since I can prove it), is that I can solve any problem without relying on rote memorization. Once this happens, the certs become more or less meaningless. EDIT: I could bump my pay around $10k/yr, if I buckled down and went for my CCIE. The thing is, I don't want to. I have an awesome job, I make awesome money, and at some point, I call well enough...well enough. I get to do what interests me, and I get paid for it. Good deal. |
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At one time, certs were very valuable. The reason? For a time, the only people capable of passing the tests were those who were legitimately bright, and had been at it for a while. For a short time, it was almost assured that a person who possessed an MSCE or a CNE (for example) was the real deal. Hire with confidence. The problem is, tech schools, book publishers and computer learning centers quickly picked up on this, and did a fantastic job of convincing paying students of a false correlation, namely that cert = money. Actually, they recognized a correlation and errantly assigned a cause to it. Tsk tsk. It was the beginning of the end. Prior to this, most certificate holders were very motivated and self taught. The test proved that they knew what they said they knew. Over the course of a few years, schools realized that you could teach to the test. In other words, you could actually teach people to pass a test, rather than teach them how to learn. It took a while for this to be noticed, in my industry. But it happened. Hiring managers continued along as they always did, giving preferential treatment to certificate holders. But this didn't last forever. After a while, they began to realize that these new hires weren't living up to expectations. These new hires had the same certs as the "old school" guys, but weren't performing nearly as well. Oops. And the degradation of the value of most IT certifications has continued unabated, ever since. There are a few exceptions (CCIE comes to mind), but that's what generally happened over the years. Interesting. The CPA has become a lot easier to get also. It used to be very difficult. 2 days of testing in four sections. You had to work in public (ie a cpa firm doing either audit or tax) for 3 years. Now you can take each section, one at a time (four sections at 4 hours a piece), you can use almost any experience, (doing bookeeping for a petshop) and the continueing education is a joke. They require so much that you end up taking the accounting equivelent of basketweaving. This is exactly the reason I sat for it. 
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With more then 15 years experience in IT, i completely agree with everything said above. All of my certs have expired and since i am unemployed, i have no money to take the tests again. Most managers and directors i know, could care less about certs. It is the same with a college degree. There seems to be a cycle to this.
Long past: You couldn't get in the door without a degree. (IBM and EDS were the king of this) Past: Nobody cared about degree's or certs, need to do the job on day one, no training time. Recent: Must have certs and degree. Wanted people that they could pay little and ask for alot. Now: Companies are starting to go back to doing the job on day one. Alot less emphasis on certs and degree. Pay seems to be coming back up some too. I actually had an interview the other day and was asked point blank, why i have a computer science degree and I am not a programer. My answer, i hate programing and when i was in college, there was only either computer science or EE. Which i have a major in one and minor in the other. They all laughed and agreed completly. |
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Quoted: Quoted: At one time, certs were very valuable. The reason? For a time, the only people capable of passing the tests were those who were legitimately bright, and had been at it for a while. For a short time, it was almost assured that a person who possessed an MSCE or a CNE (for example) was the real deal. Hire with confidence. The problem is, tech schools, book publishers and computer learning centers quickly picked up on this, and did a fantastic job of convincing paying students of a false correlation, namely that cert = money. Actually, they recognized a correlation and errantly assigned a cause to it. Tsk tsk. It was the beginning of the end. Prior to this, most certificate holders were very motivated and self taught. The test proved that they knew what they said they knew. Over the course of a few years, schools realized that you could teach to the test. In other words, you could actually teach people to pass a test, rather than teach them how to learn. It took a while for this to be noticed, in my industry. But it happened. Hiring managers continued along as they always did, giving preferential treatment to certificate holders. But this didn't last forever. After a while, they began to realize that these new hires weren't living up to expectations. These new hires had the same certs as the "old school" guys, but weren't performing nearly as well. Oops. And the degradation of the value of most IT certifications has continued unabated, ever since. There are a few exceptions (CCIE comes to mind), but that's what generally happened over the years. Yep. I don't even bother anymore. my 12 years gets me farther than certs. I haven't taken a certification exam since 2001, at that time, adding the Sun Certified System Administrator line on my resume GREATLY improved my response rate from job applications and recruiters. Now, I'm not even sure they HAVE relevant certifications for what I do, and I get at least one call a week asking if I'm available :-) (IBM pSeries and SAN admin, primarily, neither of which can really be learned without some expensive hardware to practice on). |
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As someone who did well during the golden days of certs (CNE3, CNE4, MCSE, etc.), I'd say they are certainly viewed with far more skepticism than in the past. I wouldn't say they don't matter, though.
They're like a high school diploma: they're not going to bowl anyone over, but if you don't have one, it'll probably raise eyebrows at interview time. Some employers (read: HR departments) do look for certs on resumes. The other extreme is that someone with a lot of certs tends to be viewed as a paper chaser. I'd advise getting certified in your area of expertise, and leave it at that. Going further afield than that (say, getting a Cisco cert when you're a DBA) isn't a good idea. Not to say that gaining familiarity outside your core is a bad thing, but going out of your way to chase certs can make you appear to be someone who's trying to write checks his ass can't cash. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: At one time, certs were very valuable. The reason? For a time, the only people capable of passing the tests were those who were legitimately bright, and had been at it for a while. For a short time, it was almost assured that a person who possessed an MSCE or a CNE (for example) was the real deal. Hire with confidence. The problem is, tech schools, book publishers and computer learning centers quickly picked up on this, and did a fantastic job of convincing paying students of a false correlation, namely that cert = money. Actually, they recognized a correlation and errantly assigned a cause to it. Tsk tsk. It was the beginning of the end. Prior to this, most certificate holders were very motivated and self taught. The test proved that they knew what they said they knew. Over the course of a few years, schools realized that you could teach to the test. In other words, you could actually teach people to pass a test, rather than teach them how to learn. It took a while for this to be noticed, in my industry. But it happened. Hiring managers continued along as they always did, giving preferential treatment to certificate holders. But this didn't last forever. After a while, they began to realize that these new hires weren't living up to expectations. These new hires had the same certs as the "old school" guys, but weren't performing nearly as well. Oops. And the degradation of the value of most IT certifications has continued unabated, ever since. There are a few exceptions (CCIE comes to mind), but that's what generally happened over the years. Yep. I don't even bother anymore. my 12 years gets me farther than certs. I haven't taken a certification exam since 2001, at that time, adding the Sun Certified System Administrator line on my resume GREATLY improved my response rate from job applications and recruiters. Now, I'm not even sure they HAVE relevant certifications for what I do, and I get at least one call a week asking if I'm available :-) (IBM pSeries and SAN admin, primarily, neither of which can really be learned without some expensive hardware to practice on). That's the secret, really. Find something you kind of like, that "coincidentally" cannot be learned without hands on experience. In my world, that might mean learning UCCE. You might have picked it up in your bedroom, but you have to be independently wealthy to do it. And if you were, you wouldn't be looking to score a job here, dig?  |
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Quoted: Some certifications and various degrees are basically proof that you have mastered a baseline of knowledge for a given task. Extremeley technical certs carry more weight than non technical or entry level certs, i.e. a CISSP is worth more than a Security+. The biggest thing is they establish a baseline of ability on your resume and help you get past the HR drones and into the interview. cissp is not an extremely technical cert, it's a mile wide and an inch deep. |
Certs are a "nice to have" type of thing IMO. I came into IT with a 2 year degree from a technical school. I've climbed the ladder by showing what I'm worth in the trenches and OTJ has been more beneficial than anything I learned in school. Classroom training will show you the "right" or "preferred" way to do something, but it's not always the best. Just have to go with your instincts and with what your gut tells you sometimes. (Just make sure you have a valid backup.  )
I actually just looked at a resume today where the person posted in large font and graphics their major certs across the top, I just skimmed past them. |