Posted: 5/18/2011 5:35:20 PM EDT
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Interviewed for a job 3 weeks ago. Showed up with fresh hair cut (always military-style short fade), dress slacks and button-down shirt with tie, dress shoes, 10 minutes early. I'm old-school and know how to show up for an interview. It is a medical field job in a small facility. I've been doing this type of work for 21 years; extensive resume, including the specific niche within my job field that this job entailed, from ground level to management.
Things were going well until the administrator (a guy) flipped to the second page of my resume where he saw my Army service listed. He asked "So, you were in the Army?". I replied "Yes sir, I was." He commented "You still carry a little with you, huh?" I again replied "Yeah, I guess so. You never lose it." He closed the resume and tapped his fingers on it and said "You know, your experience is beyond reproach, heck, probably more than is needed. But one thing I have to ask you is do you have a Type-A personality?" I was a bit taken aback, but replied "As opposed to a Type-B? Yeah, probably so." A bit of laughter ensued, then he continued. "The only reservation I have is how well would you work with others?" Needless to say, at this point I felt the prospects for this job slipping through my fingers; anything I said after this would seem or sound like explaining one's self. I replied that diplomacy was the best course, that any issues would be best dealt with personally but that in an extreme that's what the DON or himself were for. He then proceeded to ask me about my ability to take instructions from women. WTF? I've been in healthcare for 21 years and since it's a female-heavy field, at least half my supervisors have been women over the years. After mentioning the previous, I replied that it hasn't been an issue so far, why would it be in the future? So, over 3 weeks later I get an email saying someone else was offered the position. Now, not tooting my own horn, it is highly unlikely they had a MORE qualified candidate, given the specific niche experience I mentioned previously. IMHO it came down to the questions I mention above. In fact, I left the interview with a bad gut feeling. Best part? The corporation that owns this facility has a "Commitment To Veterans" page on it's website. I'm going to email the CEO as well as the recruiters about this and the apparent hypocracy. It will be well-worded and polite, but will drive home the point. I will emphasize that this is after-the-fact as I did not want to have it seen as an attempt to taint the selection process. Nonetheless, I think it's bullshit. So veterans who display a little "military bearing" are imcompatible with female supervision and playing well with others? |
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you e-mailing to complain about not being hired is definitely going to make him wish he had hired you It isn't the guy who interviewed me I'm emailing. He is the administrator of a facility. I'm going to email the CEO of the company that owns it. I don't expect to have them say "Oh sorry, you can have it". It's the freakin' principle of the matter, especially when your home website has a "Commitment to Veterans" page. Hypocracy at it's finest, although the big wigs may not be aware of what is taking place at a lower level. Now they will. |
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you e-mailing to complain about not being hired is definitely going to make him wish he had hired you This. OP: What exactly do you hope to accomplish by emailing his boss? They certainly won't hire you after you send this email - the only possible outcome for you is negative, in that you will alienate people in your industry. My $.02 - don't do it. You win some jobs, and you lose some. Let it go. |
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you e-mailing to complain about not being hired is definitely going to make him wish he had hired you This. OP: What exactly do you hope to accomplish by emailing his boss? They certainly won't hire you after you send this email - the only possible outcome for you is negative, in that you will alienate people in your industry. My $.02 - don't do it. You win some jobs, and you lose some. Let it go. Nah, it won't matter. Like I said, it's a niche corner of the market, a small employer of my field. Very small. Nonetheless, I don't like his attitude and intend to call him on it––-from above. Fuck it. |
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you e-mailing to complain about not being hired is definitely going to make him wish he had hired you This. OP: What exactly do you hope to accomplish by emailing his boss? They certainly won't hire you after you send this email - the only possible outcome for you is negative, in that you will alienate people in your industry. My $.02 - don't do it. You win some jobs, and you lose some. Let it go. Nah, it won't matter. Like I said, it's a niche corner of the market, a small employer of my field. Very small. Nonetheless, I don't like his attitude and intend to call him on it––-from above. Fuck it. *shrug*. It's your career, and not my industry, so I'll take your word for it. I've bookmarked this thread so I can read your email and their response 
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Your accusation/assumption of "apparent hypocrisy" is based on your ASSUMPTION that the other candidate is less qualified than you. You also assume that you fully understand this company's values for a candidate for this position. I see nothing in your writing that indicates that you have this inside knowledge. Thus - your negative assumption about the hiring decision is based upon your speculation - and not fact. How can you possibly know that there isn't a candidate that is as qualified as you - or more so? How do you know that you weren't considered over-qualified? Perhaps they were looking for a more junior or senior candidate - or one with specific experience or quality that you lack. A corporate commitment to veterans doesn't mean that veterans always get the job. I don't think you understand this. Although I wasn't there - your account of your response to the question about whether you still had some Army in you could have been answered better - IMO. I interview a fair of candidates. I seldom tell candidates that I suspect won't make the cut - what I see their shortcomings as. What is very obvious to me is probably not apparent to them at all. Sometimes it is just my instinct that they will not mesh well with the Team or with my client. They have little way of sensing this. IMO you are rushing to judgement on this company with few if any facts - and for a candidate.... that does not come across well. Firing off a letter to the CEO shows IMO a bridge-burning attitude that I would not want on my team - and I would tell HR to note that permanently. Burning that bridge permanently is IMO a very poor decision. This is a small world and people in an industry talk. |
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I had almost EXACTLY the same set of reactions when
an interviewer noted that I was in the military. Take instructions from women? Hell, my first NCOIC was a woman! Work in a team? WTF do you think the Army IS?! I clearly articulated all of these things. Some places simply won't hire "A"s because they are "B"s or "C"s and they fear for job security. |
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you e-mailing to complain about not being hired is definitely going to make him wish he had hired you This. OP: What exactly do you hope to accomplish by emailing his boss? They certainly won't hire you after you send this email - the only possible outcome for you is negative, in that you will alienate people in your industry. My $.02 - don't do it. You win some jobs, and you lose some. Let it go. Nah, it won't matter. Like I said, it's a niche corner of the market, a small employer of my field. Very small. Nonetheless, I don't like his attitude and intend to call him on it––-from above. Fuck it. yOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE TO EMAIL CORPORATE THAT THE INTERVIEWER HAD A NEGATIVE SLANT TOWARDS MILITARY PERSONNEL - DO IT! |
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Your accusation/assumption of "apparent hypocrisy" is based on your ASSUMPTION that the other candidate is less qualified than you. You also assume that you fully understand this company's values for a candidate for this position. I see nothing in your writing that indicates that you have this inside knowledge. Thus - your negative assumption about the hiring decision is based upon your speculation - and not fact. How can you possibly know that there isn't a candidate that is as qualified as you - or more so? Like I said, it is a niche field in my profession and MAYBE someone was equally qualified, but I'd bet a paycheck not MORE How do you know that you weren't considered over-qualified? Could be, but why not offer anyway? Perhaps they were looking for a more junior or senior candidate - or one with specific experience or quality that you lack. A corporate commitment to veterans doesn't mean that veterans always get the job. I don't think you understand this. Yeah, I know it doesn't guarantee anything Although I wasn't there - your account of your response to the question about whether you still had some Army in you could have been answered better - IMO. Really? By all means, elaborate. I mean, is it something to run from? If so, count me out I interview a fair of candidates. I seldom tell candidates that I suspect won't make the cut - what I see their shortcomings as. What is very obvious to me is probably not apparent to them at all. Sometimes it is just my instinct that they will not mesh well with the Team or with my client. They have little way of sensing this. Actually, I sensed it as soon as his line of questioning began. It wasn't rocket science. I too have hired folks before IMO you are rushing to judgement on this company with few if any facts - and for a candidate.... that does not come across well. What does it matter? I waited until the choice had been made, not before. No attempt to sway things. It doesn't matter now except for the principle of it Firing off a letter to the CEO shows IMO a bridge-burning attitude that I would not want on my team - and I would tell HR to note that permanently. Burning that bridge permanently is IMO a very poor decision. This is a small world and people in an industry talk. Not too worried about that |
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I had almost EXACTLY the same set of reactions when an interviewer noted that I was in the military. Take instructions from women? Hell, my first NCOIC was a woman! Work in a team? WTF do you think the Army IS?! I clearly articulated all of these things. Some places simply won't hire "A"s because they are "B"s or "C"s and they fear for job security. Well well. Maybe CWO can read your post. Apparently I'm not alone. ETA––-I think the guy was a weasel-dick, but it's just a guess. 
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Quoted: Quoted: Your accusation/assumption of "apparent hypocrisy" is based on your ASSUMPTION that the other candidate is less qualified than you. You also assume that you fully understand this company's values for a candidate for this position. I see nothing in your writing that indicates that you have this inside knowledge. Thus - your negative assumption about the hiring decision is based upon your speculation - and not fact. How can you possibly know that there isn't a candidate that is as qualified as you - or more so? Like I said, it is a niche field in my profession and MAYBE someone was equally qualified, but I'd bet a paycheck not MORE How do you know that you weren't considered over-qualified? Could be, but why not offer anyway? Perhaps they were looking for a more junior or senior candidate - or one with specific experience or quality that you lack. A corporate commitment to veterans doesn't mean that veterans always get the job. I don't think you understand this. Yeah, I know it doesn't guarantee anything Although I wasn't there - your account of your response to the question about whether you still had some Army in you could have been answered better - IMO. Really? By all means, elaborate. I mean, is it something to run from? If so, count me out I interview a fair of candidates. I seldom tell candidates that I suspect won't make the cut - what I see their shortcomings as. What is very obvious to me is probably not apparent to them at all. Sometimes it is just my instinct that they will not mesh well with the Team or with my client. They have little way of sensing this. Actually, I sensed it as soon as his line of questioning began. It wasn't rocket science. I too have hired folks before IMO you are rushing to judgement on this company with few if any facts - and for a candidate.... that does not come across well. What does it matter? I waited until the choice had been made, not before. No attempt to sway things. It doesn't matter now except for the principle of it Firing off a letter to the CEO shows IMO a bridge-burning attitude that I would not want on my team - and I would tell HR to note that permanently. Burning that bridge permanently is IMO a very poor decision. This is a small world and people in an industry talk. Not too worried about that I generally don't make offers to over- or under-qualified candidates. There are good and obvious reasons for this approach that any good manager understands. You are taking a relative blind candidate's viewpoint of this. Why not make an offer anyway? Because you aren't the candidate I prefer. Period. Many candidates can be rather cocky about their qualifications - and frankly - your writing seems to be no exception to this. The harsh reality that candidates are often blind to ian understanding what a company is looking for, what problems they have, what negative experiences they have had, who left the open position and why, challenges that lie ahead in their business and dynamics within the team. Each of these shape a manager's needs, priorities, candidate selection criteria and instincts. Candidates don't care about them - but they spell the difference receiving an offer - or not. No-one said to "run" from your military experience. Do you usually dramatize your reactions like this? The fact is - you are applying for a PRIVATE SECTOR position - not a military one. Showing an interviewer that your head is well-centered in the private sector makes good sense - because he is in the private sector. As is the job, the company and the team you will need to smoothly integrate into. Trying to tout your strengths as a German Shepard in the field of lambs isn't going to win you any prizes. In the private sector - a candidate needs to gain and demonstrate a grasp that it isn't the military any more. A company that doesn't have a really strong percentage of former military on staff can be a little wary if the candidate's primary experience is military - or if he/she shows a style of dealing with people that is more military-esque than private sector. If you (as you stated) are intent on intentionally writing the company CEO to knowingly burn that bridge permanently - aware that it could easily get out to other firms that may be future employers - then I'll suggest that such a reckless attitude can come across in an interview and may be the reason you received no offer. No manager needs headaches from such staff. All your letter is going to do is make them feel better about their hiring decision. A wise man would respectfully call the manager, thank them for their time, tell them that you liked the company and would be open to future opportunities with them. If the manager was receptive - I would ask what I could do to strengthen my bona fides and use it as a valuable learning moment. But you seem intent on hurling a rock through the front window - so have at it. Your chosen approach is speaking loudly about you as a candidate. |
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you e-mailing to complain about not being hired is definitely going to make him wish he had hired you This. OP: What exactly do you hope to accomplish by emailing his boss? They certainly won't hire you after you send this email - the only possible outcome for you is negative, in that you will alienate people in your industry. My $.02 - don't do it. You win some jobs, and you lose some. Let it go. Nah, it won't matter. Like I said, it's a niche corner of the market, a small employer of my field. Very small. Nonetheless, I don't like his attitude and intend to call him on it––-from above. Fuck it. that'll show him he was wrong |
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you e-mailing to complain about not being hired is definitely going to make him wish he had hired you It isn't the guy who interviewed me I'm emailing. He is the administrator of a facility. I'm going to email the CEO of the company that owns it. I don't expect to have them say "Oh sorry, you can have it". It's the freakin' principle of the matter, especially when your home website has a "Commitment to Veterans" page. Hypocracy at it's finest, although the big wigs may not be aware of what is taking place at a lower level. Now they will. you're going to make yourself seem combative. that is, exactly why the guy didn't hire you to begin with. |
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I had a professor in one of my business classes that went to West Point and served in the Army for around a decade if I remember correctly. He instructed everyone in the class that if they had served or were planning to serve in the future to not list any specifics about your years of service, instead list a broad generalized summary of what you did. He also recommended instead of naming the branch you were in, simply list Department of Defense as your employer for those years.
His explanation was that some employers are less motivated to hire folks from the military because of a percieved difficulty readjusting to the private sector, and why give them a reason to toss your resume if that's something they don't like. At least generalize it on your resume and maybe get a shot at an interview, then you can at least get some face time and go more in depth on your years of service. In the years since that class I've worked with a good number of folks with prior service and I completely understand what my professor was talking about after seeing it first hand. It has seemed to me folks right out tend to have a hard time adjusting(I understand this is not your case). That being said, the best manager I ever had was in the Marines and was only with the company a few years longer than me. I would say he had no trouble adjusting. |
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Your accusation/assumption of "apparent hypocrisy" is based on your ASSUMPTION that the other candidate is less qualified than you. You also assume that you fully understand this company's values for a candidate for this position. I see nothing in your writing that indicates that you have this inside knowledge. Thus - your negative assumption about the hiring decision is based upon your speculation - and not fact. How can you possibly know that there isn't a candidate that is as qualified as you - or more so? Like I said, it is a niche field in my profession and MAYBE someone was equally qualified, but I'd bet a paycheck not MORE How do you know that you weren't considered over-qualified? Could be, but why not offer anyway? Perhaps they were looking for a more junior or senior candidate - or one with specific experience or quality that you lack. A corporate commitment to veterans doesn't mean that veterans always get the job. I don't think you understand this. Yeah, I know it doesn't guarantee anything Although I wasn't there - your account of your response to the question about whether you still had some Army in you could have been answered better - IMO. Really? By all means, elaborate. I mean, is it something to run from? If so, count me out I interview a fair of candidates. I seldom tell candidates that I suspect won't make the cut - what I see their shortcomings as. What is very obvious to me is probably not apparent to them at all. Sometimes it is just my instinct that they will not mesh well with the Team or with my client. They have little way of sensing this. Actually, I sensed it as soon as his line of questioning began. It wasn't rocket science. I too have hired folks before IMO you are rushing to judgement on this company with few if any facts - and for a candidate.... that does not come across well. What does it matter? I waited until the choice had been made, not before. No attempt to sway things. It doesn't matter now except for the principle of it Firing off a letter to the CEO shows IMO a bridge-burning attitude that I would not want on my team - and I would tell HR to note that permanently. Burning that bridge permanently is IMO a very poor decision. This is a small world and people in an industry talk. Not too worried about that I generally don't make offers to over- or under-qualified candidates. There are good and obvious reasons for this approach that any good manager understands. You are taking a relative blind candidate's viewpoint of this. Why not make an offer anyway? Because you aren't the candidate I prefer. Period. Many candidates can be rather cocky about their qualifications - and frankly - your writing seems to be no exception to this. The harsh reality that candidates are often blind to ian understanding what a company is looking for, what problems they have, what negative experiences they have had, who left the open position and why, challenges that lie ahead in their business and dynamics within the team. Each of these shape a manager's needs, priorities, candidate selection criteria and instincts. Candidates don't care about them - but they spell the difference receiving an offer - or not. No-one said to "run" from your military experience. Do you usually dramatize your reactions like this? The fact is - you are applying for a PRIVATE SECTOR position - not a military one. Showing an interviewer that your head is well-centered in the private sector makes good sense - because he is in the private sector. As is the job, the company and the team you will need to smoothly integrate into. Trying to tout your strengths as a German Shepard in the field of lambs isn't going to win you any prizes. In the private sector - a candidate needs to gain and demonstrate a grasp that it isn't the military any more. A company that doesn't have a really strong percentage of former military on staff can be a little wary if the candidate's primary experience is military - or if he/she shows a style of dealing with people that is more military-esque than private sector. If you (as you stated) are intent on intentionally writing the company CEO to knowingly burn that bridge permanently - aware that it could easily get out to other firms that may be future employers - then I'll suggest that such a reckless attitude can come across in an interview and may be the reason you received no offer. No manager needs headaches from such staff. All your letter is going to do is make them feel better about their hiring decision. A wise man would respectfully call the manager, thank them for their time, tell them that you liked the company and would be open to future opportunities with them. If the manager was receptive - I would ask what I could do to strengthen my bona fides and use it as a valuable learning moment. But you seem intent on hurling a rock through the front window - so have at it. Your chosen approach is speaking loudly about you as a candidate. Cocky? Since you weren't there I'd say you're speculating at best. I too have interviewed folks before, so I've been on the other side of the table. BTDT. I know how to interview. As I spelled out above, my experience in this nuche was gonna be hard to beat. Bet you think I mentioned that, don't ya? Absolutely not! I was respectful, polite, well-spoken, carried myself in a proper manner (i.e. sat up straight, not slouching or leaning on the guy's desk, etc.). I let my resume speak for itself. In fact, I didn't mention one word of my past experience except when specifically asked about it. I also have enough sense not to tout the "German Shepherd in a field of lambs" thing. There is such a thing as a "game face", and the prudent person has it on for an interview. How I'm speaking here is frank and to the point; rather different than the interview. I was well aware of what they were looking for: team approach with patient care foremost (even used the word "resident" when referring to the patients, as in this particular corner of the industry they are known as such, again remembering that from the past). This is not the beginning of litigation or whining to please give me the job. It's a done deal now. However, instead of fellating them as you suggest, and acting as though I'm some kind of novice thankful for the head-master's admonishment, I'll just throw the rock––-in a professionally written way. It chaps me that the gut feeling I had that day was spot-on: a line of questioning began with military service and devolved into speculative mamby-pamby bullshit about my ability to play nice with others and listen to women. It's horseshit and I intend to let it be known as such. But thanks for your advice......
ETA––-I fully realize, having conducted interviews myself, that there is a certain degree of subjectivity involved. Had I simply not gotten the job it wouldn't rub me the way it does. It's what occurred during the interview I take issue with. |
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Interviewed for a job 3 weeks ago. Showed up with fresh hair cut (always military-style short fade), dress slacks and button-down shirt with tie, dress shoes, 10 minutes early. I'm old-school and know how to show up for an interview. It is a medical field job in a small facility. I've been doing this type of work for 21 years; extensive resume, including the specific niche within my job field that this job entailed, from ground level to management. Things were going well until the administrator (a guy) flipped to the second page of my resume where he saw my Army service listed. He asked "So, you were in the Army?". I replied "Yes sir, I was." He commented "You still carry a little with you, huh?" I again replied "Yeah, I guess so. You never lose it." He closed the resume and tapped his fingers on it and said "You know, your experience is beyond reproach, heck, probably more than is needed. But one thing I have to ask you is do you have a Type-A personality?" I was a bit taken aback, but replied "As opposed to a Type-B? Yeah, probably so." A bit of laughter ensued, then he continued. "The only reservation I have is how well would you work with others?" Needless to say, at this point I felt the prospects for this job slipping through my fingers; anything I said after this would seem or sound like explaining one's self. I replied that diplomacy was the best course, that any issues would be best dealt with personally but that in an extreme that's what the DON or himself were for. He then proceeded to ask me about my ability to take instructions from women. WTF? I've been in healthcare for 21 years and since it's a female-heavy field, at least half my supervisors have been women over the years. After mentioning the previous, I replied that it hasn't been an issue so far, why would it be in the future? So, over 3 weeks later I get an email saying someone else was offered the position. Now, not tooting my own horn, it is highly unlikely they had a MORE qualified candidate, given the specific niche experience I mentioned previously. IMHO it came down to the questions I mention above. In fact, I left the interview with a bad gut feeling. Best part? The corporation that owns this facility has a "Commitment To Veterans" page on it's website. I'm going to email the CEO as well as the recruiters about this and the apparent hypocracy. It will be well-worded and polite, but will drive home the point. I will emphasize that this is after-the-fact as I did not want to have it seen as an attempt to taint the selection process. Nonetheless, I think it's bullshit. So veterans who display a little "military bearing" are imcompatible with female supervision and playing well with others? It's quite possible that they have experience with some ex-military folks who do have a bit of a problem with women. I really doubt the issue was your being a veteran, but your not responding to those questions "properly". He asked how you would work with others. It sounds like you didn't have a good answer ready, and went with something about "diplomacy being the best course", which could be construed to mean you would be "diplomatically" trying to get others to do things your way. And when asked about women, instead of a simple, "No, of course not... I've worked for women before and have no problems"; you said, "it hasn't been an issue so far, why would it be in the future?"... which, again, could be construed as there is the possibility of a problem. Remember...if they hire someone who does have any kind of a problem with women (or whatever), they face huge potential legal exposure... and they have stacks of resumes for other people who might not be as good, but avoiding lawsuits is huge. Questions like this, they're looking for an emphatic, "No, that isn't going to be a problem. Period." |
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you e-mailing to complain about not being hired is definitely going to make him wish he had hired you Oh boy, I misssed that part. OP, do not send that email. It will accomplish nothing positive, and will guarantee you that company will never call you again. You might send an email saying something like, since there is no doubt that I am qualified for this position, I believe it's possible Mr. So-and-so misinterpreted my responses to questions about how I would work with others and women. I apologize for having been caught off-guard, but those questions never occurred to me... during my years in the Army, I was always part of a team working with others and frequently worked for female superiors. I never thought this was something that would be questioned. I apologize for being unclear on that point, and if another position were to open in the future, I would ask that you consider me again. Thank you so much for the opportunity to interview with you, etc. etc. |
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I generally don't make offers to over- or under-qualified candidates. There are good and obvious reasons for this approach that any good manager understands. You are taking a relative blind candidate's viewpoint of this. Why not make an offer anyway? Because you aren't the candidate I prefer. Period. Many candidates can be rather cocky about their qualifications - and frankly - your writing seems to be no exception to this. The harsh reality that candidates are often blind to ian understanding what a company is looking for, what problems they have, what negative experiences they have had, who left the open position and why, challenges that lie ahead in their business and dynamics within the team. Each of these shape a manager's needs, priorities, candidate selection criteria and instincts. Candidates don't care about them - but they spell the difference receiving an offer - or not. No-one said to "run" from your military experience. Do you usually dramatize your reactions like this? The fact is - you are applying for a PRIVATE SECTOR position - not a military one. Showing an interviewer that your head is well-centered in the private sector makes good sense - because he is in the private sector. As is the job, the company and the team you will need to smoothly integrate into. Trying to tout your strengths as a German Shepard in the field of lambs isn't going to win you any prizes. In the private sector - a candidate needs to gain and demonstrate a grasp that it isn't the military any more. A company that doesn't have a really strong percentage of former military on staff can be a little wary if the candidate's primary experience is military - or if he/she shows a style of dealing with people that is more military-esque than private sector. If you (as you stated) are intent on intentionally writing the company CEO to knowingly burn that bridge permanently - aware that it could easily get out to other firms that may be future employers - then I'll suggest that such a reckless attitude can come across in an interview and may be the reason you received no offer. No manager needs headaches from such staff. All your letter is going to do is make them feel better about their hiring decision. A wise man would respectfully call the manager, thank them for their time, tell them that you liked the company and would be open to future opportunities with them. If the manager was receptive - I would ask what I could do to strengthen my bona fides and use it as a valuable learning moment. QFT |
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you e-mailing to complain about not being hired is definitely going to make him wish he had hired you Pretty much. Unless you have some way of filing a union grievance or some such, it will get you nowhere, possibly even prevent you from being hired in the future. Sorry bout your luck, though. i would advise not sending the email. |
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That employer feared you, he feared your background and your age. After 20 some years of experience I'm guessing that you are around mid 40's. Hence, you've been around the block and he figures you won't be a push over and won't take any shit.
The majority of employers today prefer a younger work force as they will work cheaper and are easily controlled. Good luck in your job pursuit. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Your accusation/assumption of "apparent hypocrisy" is based on your ASSUMPTION that the other candidate is less qualified than you. You also assume that you fully understand this company's values for a candidate for this position. I see nothing in your writing that indicates that you have this inside knowledge. Thus - your negative assumption about the hiring decision is based upon your speculation - and not fact. How can you possibly know that there isn't a candidate that is as qualified as you - or more so? Like I said, it is a niche field in my profession and MAYBE someone was equally qualified, but I'd bet a paycheck not MORE How do you know that you weren't considered over-qualified? Could be, but why not offer anyway? Perhaps they were looking for a more junior or senior candidate - or one with specific experience or quality that you lack. A corporate commitment to veterans doesn't mean that veterans always get the job. I don't think you understand this. Yeah, I know it doesn't guarantee anything Although I wasn't there - your account of your response to the question about whether you still had some Army in you could have been answered better - IMO. Really? By all means, elaborate. I mean, is it something to run from? If so, count me out I interview a fair of candidates. I seldom tell candidates that I suspect won't make the cut - what I see their shortcomings as. What is very obvious to me is probably not apparent to them at all. Sometimes it is just my instinct that they will not mesh well with the Team or with my client. They have little way of sensing this. Actually, I sensed it as soon as his line of questioning began. It wasn't rocket science. I too have hired folks before IMO you are rushing to judgement on this company with few if any facts - and for a candidate.... that does not come across well. What does it matter? I waited until the choice had been made, not before. No attempt to sway things. It doesn't matter now except for the principle of it Firing off a letter to the CEO shows IMO a bridge-burning attitude that I would not want on my team - and I would tell HR to note that permanently. Burning that bridge permanently is IMO a very poor decision. This is a small world and people in an industry talk. Not too worried about that I generally don't make offers to over- or under-qualified candidates. There are good and obvious reasons for this approach that any good manager understands. You are taking a relative blind candidate's viewpoint of this. Why not make an offer anyway? Because you aren't the candidate I prefer. Period. Many candidates can be rather cocky about their qualifications - and frankly - your writing seems to be no exception to this. The harsh reality that candidates are often blind to ian understanding what a company is looking for, what problems they have, what negative experiences they have had, who left the open position and why, challenges that lie ahead in their business and dynamics within the team. Each of these shape a manager's needs, priorities, candidate selection criteria and instincts. Candidates don't care about them - but they spell the difference receiving an offer - or not. No-one said to "run" from your military experience. Do you usually dramatize your reactions like this? The fact is - you are applying for a PRIVATE SECTOR position - not a military one. Showing an interviewer that your head is well-centered in the private sector makes good sense - because he is in the private sector. As is the job, the company and the team you will need to smoothly integrate into. Trying to tout your strengths as a German Shepard in the field of lambs isn't going to win you any prizes. In the private sector - a candidate needs to gain and demonstrate a grasp that it isn't the military any more. A company that doesn't have a really strong percentage of former military on staff can be a little wary if the candidate's primary experience is military - or if he/she shows a style of dealing with people that is more military-esque than private sector. If you (as you stated) are intent on intentionally writing the company CEO to knowingly burn that bridge permanently - aware that it could easily get out to other firms that may be future employers - then I'll suggest that such a reckless attitude can come across in an interview and may be the reason you received no offer. No manager needs headaches from such staff. All your letter is going to do is make them feel better about their hiring decision. A wise man would respectfully call the manager, thank them for their time, tell them that you liked the company and would be open to future opportunities with them. If the manager was receptive - I would ask what I could do to strengthen my bona fides and use it as a valuable learning moment. But you seem intent on hurling a rock through the front window - so have at it. Your chosen approach is speaking loudly about you as a candidate. Cocky? Since you weren't there I'd say you're speculating at best. I too have interviewed folks before, so I've been on the other side of the table. BTDT. I know how to interview. As I spelled out above, my experience in this nuche was gonna be hard to beat. Bet you think I mentioned that, don't ya? Absolutely not! I was respectful, polite, well-spoken, carried myself in a proper manner (i.e. sat up straight, not slouching or leaning on the guy's desk, etc.). I let my resume speak for itself. In fact, I didn't mention one word of my past experience except when specifically asked about it. I also have enough sense not to tout the "German Shepherd in a field of lambs" thing. There is such a thing as a "game face", and the prudent person has it on for an interview. How I'm speaking here is frank and to the point; rather different than the interview. I was well aware of what they were looking for: team approach with patient care foremost (even used the word "resident" when referring to the patients, as in this particular corner of the industry they are known as such, again remembering that from the past). This is not the beginning of litigation or whining to please give me the job. It's a done deal now. However, instead of fellating them as you suggest, and acting as though I'm some kind of novice thankful for the head-master's admonishment, I'll just throw the rock––-in a professionally written way. It chaps me that the gut feeling I had that day was spot-on: a line of questioning began with military service and devolved into speculative mamby-pamby bullshit about my ability to play nice with others and listen to women. It's horseshit and I intend to let it be known as such. But thanks for your advice...... ETA––-I fully realize, having conducted interviews myself, that there is a certain degree of subjectivity involved. Had I simply not gotten the job it wouldn't rub me the way it does. It's what occurred during the interview I take issue with. Well then - it sounds like you are certain that you were the "Perfect Candidate". Odd how the hiring manager didn't see it your way. The warning sign that things were awry was when you were asked whether you are a Type A. The manager was on the fence already about you when that question came up. Since you are so insightful - its up to you to determine what drove him to that point in your prior discussion or your qualifications. Your answer and/or tone in your response to the Type A question sealed the deal against you. I will observe this: Your posts on this topic come across to the neutral observer as cocky, somewhat arrogant and have a know-it-all tone about them. If you exhibited this mindset in the interview - I think you have your answer. Your plan to scold the company CEO in a letter does nothing to disprove this. |
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That employer feared you, he feared your background and your age. After 20 some years of experience I'm guessing that you are around mid 40's 45yo. Hence, you've been around the block and he figures you won't be a push over and won't take any shit. The majority of employers today prefer a younger work force as they will work cheaper and are easily controlled. Good luck in your job pursuit. I wondered that myself. I also keep in decent shape and am not a small guy, maybe that's intimidating to some. Dunno.... |
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Were the questions illegal?
Probably. Were there answers YOU could have given to overcome them? Definitely. Use this as a learning experience. Raise up your interview game. Remember, all job interview questions are really there to determine one of three things: A) Why do you (the candidate) want the job? B) Why should the company hire you? C) What value do you add? |
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Your accusation/assumption of "apparent hypocrisy" is based on your ASSUMPTION that the other candidate is less qualified than you. You also assume that you fully understand this company's values for a candidate for this position. I see nothing in your writing that indicates that you have this inside knowledge. Thus - your negative assumption about the hiring decision is based upon your speculation - and not fact. How can you possibly know that there isn't a candidate that is as qualified as you - or more so? Like I said, it is a niche field in my profession and MAYBE someone was equally qualified, but I'd bet a paycheck not MORE How do you know that you weren't considered over-qualified? Could be, but why not offer anyway? Perhaps they were looking for a more junior or senior candidate - or one with specific experience or quality that you lack. A corporate commitment to veterans doesn't mean that veterans always get the job. I don't think you understand this. Yeah, I know it doesn't guarantee anything Although I wasn't there - your account of your response to the question about whether you still had some Army in you could have been answered better - IMO. Really? By all means, elaborate. I mean, is it something to run from? If so, count me out I interview a fair of candidates. I seldom tell candidates that I suspect won't make the cut - what I see their shortcomings as. What is very obvious to me is probably not apparent to them at all. Sometimes it is just my instinct that they will not mesh well with the Team or with my client. They have little way of sensing this. Actually, I sensed it as soon as his line of questioning began. It wasn't rocket science. I too have hired folks before IMO you are rushing to judgement on this company with few if any facts - and for a candidate.... that does not come across well. What does it matter? I waited until the choice had been made, not before. No attempt to sway things. It doesn't matter now except for the principle of it Firing off a letter to the CEO shows IMO a bridge-burning attitude that I would not want on my team - and I would tell HR to note that permanently. Burning that bridge permanently is IMO a very poor decision. This is a small world and people in an industry talk. Not too worried about that I generally don't make offers to over- or under-qualified candidates. There are good and obvious reasons for this approach that any good manager understands. You are taking a relative blind candidate's viewpoint of this. Why not make an offer anyway? Because you aren't the candidate I prefer. Period. Many candidates can be rather cocky about their qualifications - and frankly - your writing seems to be no exception to this. The harsh reality that candidates are often blind to ian understanding what a company is looking for, what problems they have, what negative experiences they have had, who left the open position and why, challenges that lie ahead in their business and dynamics within the team. Each of these shape a manager's needs, priorities, candidate selection criteria and instincts. Candidates don't care about them - but they spell the difference receiving an offer - or not. No-one said to "run" from your military experience. Do you usually dramatize your reactions like this? The fact is - you are applying for a PRIVATE SECTOR position - not a military one. Showing an interviewer that your head is well-centered in the private sector makes good sense - because he is in the private sector. As is the job, the company and the team you will need to smoothly integrate into. Trying to tout your strengths as a German Shepard in the field of lambs isn't going to win you any prizes. In the private sector - a candidate needs to gain and demonstrate a grasp that it isn't the military any more. A company that doesn't have a really strong percentage of former military on staff can be a little wary if the candidate's primary experience is military - or if he/she shows a style of dealing with people that is more military-esque than private sector. If you (as you stated) are intent on intentionally writing the company CEO to knowingly burn that bridge permanently - aware that it could easily get out to other firms that may be future employers - then I'll suggest that such a reckless attitude can come across in an interview and may be the reason you received no offer. No manager needs headaches from such staff. All your letter is going to do is make them feel better about their hiring decision. A wise man would respectfully call the manager, thank them for their time, tell them that you liked the company and would be open to future opportunities with them. If the manager was receptive - I would ask what I could do to strengthen my bona fides and use it as a valuable learning moment. But you seem intent on hurling a rock through the front window - so have at it. Your chosen approach is speaking loudly about you as a candidate. Cocky? Since you weren't there I'd say you're speculating at best. I too have interviewed folks before, so I've been on the other side of the table. BTDT. I know how to interview. As I spelled out above, my experience in this nuche was gonna be hard to beat. Bet you think I mentioned that, don't ya? Absolutely not! I was respectful, polite, well-spoken, carried myself in a proper manner (i.e. sat up straight, not slouching or leaning on the guy's desk, etc.). I let my resume speak for itself. In fact, I didn't mention one word of my past experience except when specifically asked about it. I also have enough sense not to tout the "German Shepherd in a field of lambs" thing. There is such a thing as a "game face", and the prudent person has it on for an interview. How I'm speaking here is frank and to the point; rather different than the interview. I was well aware of what they were looking for: team approach with patient care foremost (even used the word "resident" when referring to the patients, as in this particular corner of the industry they are known as such, again remembering that from the past). This is not the beginning of litigation or whining to please give me the job. It's a done deal now. However, instead of fellating them as you suggest, and acting as though I'm some kind of novice thankful for the head-master's admonishment, I'll just throw the rock––-in a professionally written way. It chaps me that the gut feeling I had that day was spot-on: a line of questioning began with military service and devolved into speculative mamby-pamby bullshit about my ability to play nice with others and listen to women. It's horseshit and I intend to let it be known as such. But thanks for your advice......
ETA––-I fully realize, having conducted interviews myself, that there is a certain degree of subjectivity involved. Had I simply not gotten the job it wouldn't rub me the way it does. It's what occurred during the interview I take issue with. Well then - it sounds like you are certain that you were the "Perfect Candidate". Odd how the hiring manager didn't see it your way. The warning sign that things were awry was when you were asked whether you are a Type A. The manager was on the fence already about you when that question came up. Since you are so insightful - its up to you to determine what drove him to that point in your prior discussion or your qualifications. Your answer and/or tone in your response to the Type A question sealed the deal against you. I will observe this: Your posts on this topic come across to the neutral observer as cocky, somewhat arrogant and have a know-it-all tone about them. If you exhibited this mindset in the interview - I think you have your answer. Your plan to scold the company CEO in a letter does nothing to disprove this. You're missing what I said earlier. I have confidence (not cockiness) that my experience was more than adequate, as articulated by the guy himself. Not getting the job is one thing––-no big deal. But how I strongly suspect it went down is what chaps me, and the reasons for it that started with his notation of my Army service. If you can't see that part then perhaps you have developed a bit of arrogance sitting on the other side of the desk. |
FWIW, the woman there didn't seem to have an issue with any answers. Only weasel-dick did. 
And as far as answers are concerned, I replied in the PC-esque way about "teamwork" and diplomatically approaching any potential problems. Like I said, I've been on both sides of the interview table and know what to say and how to say it. I just don't care for a line of questioning that is generated by the "discovery" of my military service. While I didn't ask, I'll wager douchebag didn't do a day in his life. |
| Perhaps a call to the hiring manager asking for advise on how to interview better, and why you were not chosen. Ask for constructive criticism. It shows a desire to improve, and a real interest in the company, without making anyone mad. Plus if it doesn't work out with the new hire, you will have left a good impression with them, and up for a possible call back. (this all coming from a new full time job seeker) |
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Perhaps a call to the hiring manager asking for advise on how to interview better, and why you were not chosen. Ask for constructive criticism. It shows a desire to improve, and a real interest in the company, without making anyone mad. Plus if it doesn't work out with the new hire, you will have left a good impression with them, and up for a possible call back. (this all coming from a new full time job seeker) I was one of the first interviewed in a process that has taken 3 1/2 weeks. The HR lady who was supposed to be there was sick that day, so only the other lady and the guy were there. I'll assume the other candidates had all three folks present. Maybe the HR lady would have provided a leveraging against that type of question. Also, this is in a large military community so maybe weasel-dick has a hard-on from a long ways back (?). |
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Abnak,
Some of the comments here are way out of line. Let me give you a few pointers. First do not email anyone. Compose a well written letter and send it to the CEO. Mark it personal and confidential. Use the following code language: I experienced a soft form of bigotry for my Army Service. This was clearly demonstrated by the follow up questions....... While I am disappointed that I was not selected I am also pleased to not have to work for any individual that exhibits such bias behavior against those who have chosen to serve. Accordingly, I believe it is reasonable to question your (company) commitment to Veterans. As such I will share my experience with the Veterans association (VFW/Amer. Legion, ??) I am presently a member. Thank you for your attention to this matter.... Like a Thank You note, a well written letter goes a long way with old school/upper class. Most CEOs can appreciate such. You will not get the job but at least the next Vet may get a better chance. Good Luck. |
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I've been doing this type of work for 21 years; extensive resume, including the specific niche within my job field that this job entailed, from ground level to management.
Were you being hired as a manager? If not, that could have been a problem. Honestly if I had to choose between a former "manager" and someone without a clue, I'm going for the clueless. Why? Because I can train you to do it MY way. I won't hear, "When I ran XYZ Corp, we did it this way...." Also, 21 years experience = old and needs more money and benefits. |
| There is real discrimination against veterans in the civilian job world. Some of it is envy, others are genuinely afraid of you. The best thing I can tell you is that for every business that won't give a veteran a fair shake it seems there are two that want veterans as employees. |
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I've been doing this type of work for 21 years; extensive resume, including the specific niche within my job field that this job entailed, from ground level to management.
Were you being hired as a manager? If not, that could have been a problem. Honestly if I had to choose between a former "manager" and someone without a clue, I'm going for the clueless. Why? Because I can train you to do it MY way. I won't hear, "When I ran XYZ Corp, we did it this way...." Also, 21 years experience = old and needs more money and benefits. 
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Bump for update. Going through my bookmarks and found this thread. Did you write the letter? Get a response? Yeah, I did. No response but I wasn't really expecting any either. OPSEC version is below (names changed): To whom it may concern, My name is ABNAK. On April 25, 2011 I interviewed for a position as a Respiratory Therapist with a XXXXX entity, XXXXX Rehab in Anytown, TN. I was interviewed by Jane (D.O.N.) and Bob (administrator). Nancy, the HR person, was ill that day and not present. I have been in healthcare for 21 years. Several of those were in the long-term care industry during the late 90’s as a Respiratory Therapist, then Team Leader, and finally as an Assistant Disrict Manager. My experience as a Respiratory Therapist is also augmented by years of acute-care. Basically, as a candidate one would be hard-pressed to find my qualifications lacking especially given my role in the specific niche of skilled nursing and long-term care. notice I said "lacking", not that no one had a better resume During the interview Jane asked some questions, then turned the floor over to Bob. He flipped to the second page of my resume and saw where I had been in the U.S. Army some years ago. He commented “So you were in the Army, huh?” I replied “Yes sir, I was.” Bob asked “Still carry a little with you?” “Well, I guess it never leaves you entirely” I replied. At this point Bob closed the resume and tapped his fingers on it. “You know ABNAK, your experience speaks for itself. I think it’s more than sufficient for the job. Do you have a type-A personality?” A bit taken aback, I replied “Well, as opposed to a type-B? Probably so.” He continued: “What concerns me is how well do you get along with others? I mean, how well would you work with the staff here?” It was then I sensed any chance for selection slipping away quickly, as any response I would supply would sound like explaining myself after-the-fact. I went on to suggest that a team attitude with diplomacy was always the best approach, the old “Catch more flies with honey than vinegar.” Bob nodded, thought for a second and then asked “I also have to wonder if you have issues with a woman being in charge.” Once again, that sinking feeling set in as I was surprised by the line of questioning. I responded that given healthcare’s female-heavy makeup in general, and the fact I had 21 years into it, that easily over half my supervisors were women and it was never an issue before. these days there are 3 areas you don't go: race, gender, and sexual orientation––-Bob went there Why am I writing this? Well, yesterday I was notified that the position had been offered to someone else. I did not intend to send this before the selection was made as I did not want it to appear as an effort to taint or sway the decision-making process. Now that it is a done-deal, I would like to express my dismay with a line of subjective (and dare I say speculative) questioning that began with the noting of my military service. I am proud to have served my country. XXXXX has a special Veteran’s page on your website. It ensures a commitment to veterans. Now, obviously just being a veteran does not mean you get the job, nor should it. However, it certainly should NOT exclude you because of speculative perceptions about military experienced people. Since Bob said as much, my clinical experience was more than acceptable, so the issue lies elsewhere. I did not see anywhere on the internet posting of the job where a type-B personality was a qualification, nor anything to disuade military veterans from applying because they might not “play well with others.” This is not a litigious situation, nor am I asking for some kind of reconsideration. What it is is an attempt to inform the higher levels of XXXXX that the individual facilities may not be in keeping with corporate policy of commitment to veterans, at least in respect to an actual slant AGAINST them. To assume that veterans have type-A personalities (not that it should matter), don’t work well with others, and have trouble taking “orders” from women is an insult and is derogatory. Having conducted interviews myself over the years, I know that a certain amount of subjectivity does indeed occur. However, one can follow a timeline starting with the “So you were in the Army” question and see it go downhill from there. Thank you for your time. ABNAK |
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Quoted: Realize that, with the advent of the all volunteer military, less than 1% of the population serves. If you interviewing with somebody under 60, they are probably not a veteran, and may believe many stereotypes about military people.
Showed up with fresh hair cut (always military-style short fade), You took the uniform off years ago. You are trying to build rapport with the interviewer. Why do you go to the interview with this haircut? Things were going well until the administrator (a guy) flipped to the second page of my resume where he saw my Army service listed. He asked "So, you were in the Army?". I replied "Yes sir, I was." He commented "You still carry a little with you, huh?" In an interview, if they are talking, they are selling. If you are talking, you are selling. Remember the phrase: "A-B-C" Always be "Selling.....yourself!" Everytime you open your mouth, you should be giving them a reason to hire you, always highlighting a something you can bring to the company, always building rapport with your interview. Also, ask questions that get them thinking..."dang, this guy is asking some really smart questions." or "dang, this guy really understands my promblems." He asked "So, you were in the Army?". I replied "Yes sir, I was." He commented "You still carry a little with you, huh?" Your reply: "Yes, I do, Sir. The work ethic, the loyalty, attention to detail, the team work. I really like working as part of a team. Every team has a leader, and I think my job is to back up my leader." He closed the resume and tapped his fingers on it and said "You know, your experience is beyond reproach, heck, probably more than is needed. But one thing I have to ask you is do you have a Type-A personality?" "Well, my job is to make my boss look good, help the bottom line, not embarrass the company, and get the job done. I was a bit taken aback, but replied "As opposed to a Type-B? Yeah, probably so."Good come-back. But please tell me you said it with a smile... A bit of laughter ensued, then he continued. "The only reservation I have is how well would you work with others?" "You know, I did a little research about this company before I applied. I hear that, in comparison to your competition, this company (insert some tangible, measurable things here.) I applied to this company, because it is more than company. It is a team....a winning team. I want to work for a winning team, because I am team player. " He then proceeded to ask me about my ability to take instructions from women. He HAD to ask you this question. He was probably directed to by HR or the EO office. It is pro forma. However, you should have used it to your advantage. If you have worked for women in the last 21 years, prep for this question and use it to return to A-B-C. Mention some women who are respected in the field and with whom you accomplished something good. "I'm glad you asked that...(gently point at him, bite your upper lip, and squint for a coule of seconds before you answer, just like Bill Clinton in a town hall meeting)...You know, Dr. so-and-so at X-lab...When I started out, she was my boss...but she was more than my boss...she was my mentor. She helped me save the company X number of dolllars and win XYZ award. e |
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Quoted: Quoted: "...your experience is beyond reproach, heck, probably more than is needed." This may have been what happened. It's the seemless line of questions that started with the Army question that concerns me. Anytime my military service comes up in an interview, it is about how well I "play with others". I really think the majority of people I've interviewed with think the military is a bunch of, "yut, yut, yut, yes sir! More push-ups sir!" type of organization. I really can't get over how ignorant people are of how similar most jobs in the military are to their civilian counterparts. |
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Interviews are really "first dates," that can quickly lead to a "marriage." But for the applicant, an interview is a battle.
How do you properly prepare for a battle? You do your IPB: Intelligence Preperation of the Battlefield. - What are they hiring for? - Why did the last guy leave? Find out about the company. Their weaknesses, their strengths, what they are proud of, what they are ashamed of. Find out as much as you can about your interviewer. Do you have anything in common with him/her? Is there anything he is sensitve about? When you ask the right questions, it is better than giving the right answers. Like a "first date," you should be yourself, but be your "smart" self, your "confident", and "likeable" self. Praise the company, but make sure it is based on research, that way you don't come off like Eddie Haskel trying to butter up Mrs. Cleaver, and so that you sound like somebody who knows what they are talking about. DO send a quick "thank you" letter to your interviewer, as well as his boss, the very same day you have the interview. Mention something nice about the interviewer, and mention some little-covered positive aspect of you. Figure out what stereotypes the interviewer has about the military and come up with clever responses. Who knows, maybe he watched "Full Metal Jacket" on cable the week before, and thinks you are going to turn into R. Lee Armey. Before an interview, you need to practice a short response to every "boner" or "gotcha" question they can come up with. Rehearse the response, then do it again. ...and again. The biggest mistake you can make is answering too quickly and improvisation. When he asks a question, look him in the eye, and wait five seconds before answering. Phrases like: "That's a good question, " or "Could you rephrase that question?" are good stalls while you prep a better answer. |
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Jesus, get over it. Next you're going to say they didn't hire you cause your black. Seriously, why do you care or even more so why the hell would you want to work someplace that "doesn't want you"?
Why does every god damn American think they are entitled to whatever the hell it is they want? Being in any branch of the military does not give you special hiring privilege regardless of what that Dbag recruiter told you 8 years ago!!! |
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Use the "STAR" technique"
Situation: "When I was the (fill in job title here) at (fill in company here)... Task: "...I was responsible for x number of people, x amount of resources/inventory, and x amount of procedures/programs..." Action(s) "....I did X, and Y, and Z...." (address whatever issues/themes you are picking up in his questioning here: teamwork, working with women, working with civilians, diversity, etc....) RESULTS "....and we won this award/had the most profitable division in the company/saved the company x amount of money." |
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Jesus, get over it. Next you're going to say they didn't hire you cause your black. Seriously, why do you care or even more so why the hell would you want to work someplace that "doesn't want you"? Why does every god damn American think they are entitled to whatever the hell it is they want? Being in any branch of the military does not give you special hiring privilege regardless of what that Dbag recruiter told you 8 years ago!!! Wow! just wow..... Never did a day in your life, did ya? Nonetheless, if you read what I sent I specifically said that being a veteran of the military should NOT guarantee you the job. I said it shouldn't work AGAINST you. I never thought I was "entitled" to the job. A fair shake without prejuidice is to be expected though. Oh, and someone crying "Race" would have done so before the decision was made. 
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