Posted: 5/11/2011 9:57:51 AM EDT
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So I am having a discussion with coworkers concerning obama's push for amnesty for illegal aliens. My argument is I want a more secure border before we even think of amnesty for those already here. I know walls have worked in the past (wall o china, Berlin wall, Hadrian's wall, the wall on the west bank in Israel.....etc)
I know that we have a wall in some areas of our southern border. My question is how effective is it? |
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I guess I was kind of vague in my question. Does anybody on here live in an area that has put in a wall and noticed a decrease in crime, illegals, etc. I've noticed the difference. Back in the '80s, the border area between Tijuana and the US was very bad. I lived inland, on the other side of Otay Mtn, and in our area we had some illegals but it wasn't as bad. When the Tijuana portion of the wall was built, that area became much better. But the illegals began crossing in our area. Late 90s the local illegal situation was very bad, because the wall had pushed them eastward. The wall has since been extended. Now the number of illegals has dropped considerably. |
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I fail to see what I wall could do that different policies on the border and inside the country could not. An effective obstacle needs to be observed. We can observe the border without a wall, and there is plenty of maneuver room to interdict crossers. It makes it more difficult to cross, so that fewer eyes are required at the border. The wall is different at different portions of the border. In remote desert sections, some of the wall is great at stopping vehicles but it does not appear to be a significant obstical for fit foot traffic. But it prevents vehicles from crossing at will. Also, if you jump the wall, you may have to jump back if BP shows up unless you don't care if they pick you up. That's to say, it is harder to escape back to the other side. IMO, the wall can multiply the effectiveness of the BP who patrol the border. And it will do so with little recurring cost. |
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I fail to see what I wall could do that different policies on the border and inside the country could not. An effective obstacle needs to be observed. We can observe the border without a wall, and there is plenty of maneuver room to interdict crossers. It makes it more difficult to cross, so that fewer eyes are required at the border. The wall is different at different portions of the border. In remote desert sections, some of the wall is great at stopping vehicles but it does not appear to be a significant obstical for fit foot traffic. But it prevents vehicles from crossing at will. Also, if you jump the wall, you may have to jump back if BP shows up unless you don't care if they pick you up. That's to say, it is harder to escape back to the other side. IMO, the wall can multiply the effectiveness of the BP who patrol the border. And it will do so with little recurring cost. Walls / fences in built up areas make perfect sense to me. It's the idea of extending one through the rural open desert that does not. |
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Quoted: Depends. Are we talking Berlin Wall or a fence? A simple obstacle will be easily circumvented. A well defended wall could do something, but the costs are astronomical. A million per mile is 2 billion. Even if it costs 100 billion, it would be a go in my book. |
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It is effective until a secret device ( a ladder ) is used to circumvent it. There is a pic of a truck the narcos modified to create a ramp over a rather tall section of the wall. It folded over the wall, and was used to allow a jeep cherokee to drive to the other side, filled with weed. But the people who used it were cought on both sides. This shows the wall's effectiveness. They invested quite a bit of effort on this ramp. It worked to get them over, but they still got caught. The same is true of the tunnels. The more they invest in trying to cross, the better. The wall does need human back up. and it won't be 100% effective. But it will slow things down enough to make enforcement more effective. The real key would be deporting illegals after they get past the wall. Once they reach LA it is home free. Hell, they will march in the open and protest when an illegal who threatened people with a knife is killed by the police. If you started rounding them up and sending them home, you would see many flee the country. They won't risk investing in living here if there is a real risk of deportation. |
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Walls / fences in built up areas make perfect sense to me. It's the idea of extending one through the rural open desert that does not. I've seen the effect of the wall in rural parts of Socal. Not desert, but heavy brush. The walls I've seen in the desert here seem to be more intended to stop vehicle traffic. They do make it harder to cross on foot, but it would be very hard to get a vehicle through unless you came prepared with special hardware. |
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Depends. Are we talking Berlin Wall or a fence? A simple obstacle will be easily circumvented. A well defended wall could do something, but the costs are astronomical. A million per mile is 2 billion. Even if it costs 100 billion, it would be a go in my book. At a million per mile of fence, you could put up a remote camera tower for the same amount instead. I'd much rather have a camera tower every mile than the fence. The cameras are more effective than the wall. In true ARFCOM fashion, get both! |
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As an aside, when I last went camping in the desert near the border (north of I-8 near Ocotillo, so several miles from the border) there was some sort of radar installation. It included a camera and some weather station stuff.
Edited to add: http://www.basinandrangewatch.org/OcotilloWind-Spring2011.html The radar was for birds and bats!? I thought it might have something to do with border enforcement. Granted it was a bit far from the border for that. |
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Since most illegals come to this country by walking across the international bridge, a wall/fence is not going to help a lot. Which one? El Paso? What do you base this on? The fact that it cost 27 Pesos (About $2) to come shopping and sightseeing on the US side for a day. They just never return. Have you ever BEEN to the border? More "tourists" come north than ever go south. |
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I suggest we do away with walls around all prisons because walls won't stop all escape attempts.
I suggest we do away with the walls around the White House because the walls won't stop every wacko from getting in. I suggest that all ranchers take down all their fences because fences won't keep all the cows in all the time. I suggest we do away with all fences around day care centers and kindergartens because the fence can't keep all the kids in all the time and won't prevent a really dedicated creep from running off with one. Let's see how all of those work out. The purpose of a fence or wall is not to stop every attempt to get across. It is to make it more difficult to get across and reduce the manpower required to protect an area. People escaped from the Evil Empire even with the Berlin Wall but how many more would have flooded across if the wall hadn't been there? A good border fence/wall should be a PART of a coordinated strategy to protect this nation. No one part of the strategy will be effective by itself. A coordinated strategy won't stop all illegals or terrorists from getting in but that is not a good reason to not try at all. |
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The goal shouldn't be to stop 100% of traffic, as that is impossible. Instead the goal should be reducing illegal traffic. This is doable. Basically you find the areas where a wall would do the most good. Just be strategic. The border is so many miles long, but not all miles are equal. Some are easier for illegals to pass, especially if there is road access. Block those and you reduce traffic. Make it more difficult, make less illegal traffic.
Or think of it another way: If building border fences was worthless, why are pro-illegal immigration people so against it? Because they think it's a waste of money? To them that should be "stimulus" money. They know it works. |
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"... it's mostly completed..."
"... completely effective..." Can we please get a President that works for America instead of the one who works against America? If you were born in the United States are you considered to be an American or do you have to be here from another country illegally to be considered an American? I think, for instance, that I am a citizen of the United States since I was born in a hospital located in one of our sovereign states and have the COLB signed by the attending physician and witnessed properly but I'm not sure I'm an American because I've lived here all my life. I've been identified as an American when visiting nation states outside of the United States like in Europe. Could they have been mistaken? Was I just a citizen of the United States? Not really an American? For the record... the moat with alligators was a Democratic proposal... and a kenyan would know all about alligators, right? Especially since Kenya has crocodiles... |
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Since most illegals come to this country by walking across the international bridge, a wall/fence is not going to help a lot. Which one? El Paso? What do you base this on? The fact that it cost 27 Pesos (About $2) to come shopping and sightseeing on the US side for a day. They just never return. Have you ever BEEN to the border? More "tourists" come north than ever go south. Been there, crossed there by foot and car, lived there. What evidence do you have that "most illegals" come here by that route? |
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It is effective until a secret device ( a ladder ) is used to circumvent it. Or a shovel. That's what countermining tunnels are for. You have your own network of tunnels, solid ones, that allow you to listen for digging sounds. Sections of the walls are able to be taken apart to allow for digging to areas in close proximity to the tunnels being dug to try to circumvent the wall. At the end of these new tunnels, charges are planted and detonated, collapsing the recently made countermining tunnel and also the tunnels being dug by the smugglers. Fort Adams in Rhode Island is a good example, having some of the most extensive countermining tunnels in the country, so many that the location of all of them are not even known anymore. |
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So I am having a discussion with coworkers concerning obama's push for amnesty for illegal aliens. My argument is I want a more secure border before we even think of amnesty for those already here. I know walls have worked in the past (wall o china, Berlin wall, Hadrian's wall, the wall on the west bank in Israel.....etc) I know that we have a wall in some areas of our southern border. My question is how effective is it? I'm hard pressed to think of a single way that giving amnesty is a good long term plan (other than for the democrat voting base). We gave about three million illegals amnesty in return for immigration reform and look where we are 25 years later, with folks wanting to give amnesty to another God knows how many million illegals. How about we instead tighten the boarder, make being caught as an illegal more uncomfortable, and increase enforcement of the laws we have regarding working as an illegal. You take the money away, you take the illegal problem away. |
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So I am having a discussion with coworkers concerning obama's push for amnesty for illegal aliens. My argument is I want a more secure border before we even think of amnesty for those already here. I know walls have worked in the past (wall o china, Berlin wall, Hadrian's wall, the wall on the west bank in Israel.....etc) I know that we have a wall in some areas of our southern border. My question is how effective is it? I'm hard pressed to think of a single way that giving amnesty is a good long term plan (other than for the democrat voting base). We gave about three million illegals amnesty in return for immigration reform and look where we are 25 years later, with folks wanting to give amnesty to another God knows how many million illegals. How about we instead tighten the boarder, make being caught as an illegal more uncomfortable, and increase enforcement of the laws we have regarding working as an illegal. You take the money away, you take the illegal problem away. Amnesty, especially under our circumstances, has no merits whatsoever. |