[ARCHIVED THREAD] - HSLD Myth Busting thread (Page 1 of 4)
Posted: 3/15/2011 7:01:02 AM EDT
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This is the thread we discuss, and debunk, stupidness implemented by high speed/low drag "operators". I'll start us out with these: 1) muzzle direction. High port in a stack. Fail or good practice? 2) loss of "fine motor skills". It happens when gunfire erupts? 3) safety on or off. Take the safety off before you have eyes on target so you don't miss a beat? feel free to add more. oh, and in before JW777.  |
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Might want to put the "operators" stuff in quotes so as not to confuse the ninnies with the real deal.
1. There are certain circumstances where having muzzles up is desirable even when there is a stack...but generally muzzle up means just that, not having muzzles a couple of inches from the base of your teammate's skull. 2. "Fine motor skills" is a technical term used in the study of human development, generally in relation to children learning to do things with their fingers and hands. Those claiming that you can use a trigger and mag eject button but not a slide release are talking out of their ass....or, more often, out of someone else's ass because they were fed bad information and just don't know it. 3. If the weapon has a useable safety (like a 1911 or an AR), use it. The grandpas you don't kill accidentally will make it well worth your while. |
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IMO, regarding the safety off vs. safety on, this is akin to the curve that LE went through some years ago when they started training "finger off the trigger". For about eleventy billion years, LE was trained to keep the finger on the trigger. Someone did a study recently about how much time was actually lost, and it was negligible with proper training. <updated with details>it takes approximately .677 seconds to react and fire a handgun that is already pointed at a threat with the finger out of the triggerguard. Same would go for the safety on an AR, I would think. If you were moving with your thumb on the safety, then sweeping it off and engaging the trigger would be second nature if you trained it that way. Which FWIW, I do train that way, but doing so disqualifies me from being a HSLD operator.  edit for spelling and added in facts |
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Quoted: IMO, regarding the safety off vs. safety on, this is akin to the curve that LE went through some years ago when they started training "finger off the trigger". For about eleventy billion years, LE was trained to keep the finger on the trigger. Someone did a study recently about how much time was actually lost, and it was negligible with proper training. <updated with details>it takes approximately .677 seconds to react and fire a handgun that is already pointed at a threat with the finger out of the triggerguard. Same would go for the safety on an AR, I would think. If you were moving with your thumb on the safety, then sweeping it off and engaging the trigger would be second nature if you trained it that way. Which FWIW, I do train that way, but doing so disqualifies me from being a HSLD operator. edit for spelling and added in facts I'd like to know where the .677 seconds comes from. In my experience with a PACT timer, I can clear leather and get an A zone hit, counting reaction time in under a second, consistently. During practice, I can get down in the .7 second range. This is with a Bianchi Askin's avenger, not a race rig. You'd have to be a slow, dolt to take over half a second for your first shot. Hell, I was doing .3-.25 seconds from third eye position at TDI on 7 yard plates. All firing done with 1911, manipulated properly. As far as the "slide release" goes, while you might be able to manipulate it under stress, it's better to have a more simple manual of arms as opposed to a more complex one. Therefore, I'll stick with TRB whether it's a malfunction or charging with a fresh mag. You do it how you want. |
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For the loss of fine motor skills argument, and JW_777 has already torn it to shreds, I would ask that those perpetuating the myths to look at fighter pilots and tank/bradley gunners. These folks have 10 times the number of switches, buttons, and triggers for the different weapons, and have to (in many cases) not only flip a switch with their finger but find the switch without taking their eyes off what they're doing.
My experience comes with the Bradley. The gunner has selections for Thermal and optical sight, AP and HE ammo, Magnification level, plus the turret control. He has to select the appropriate round, view type, and magnification without taking his eye out of the sight while acquiring or tracking the target. Some of these are whole arm movements and selections are both up-down and dial. Difficult in the extreme without extensive practice and muscle memory. I've seen gunners that can operate their weapon system just like taking out their cock to piss. While I with my whole 3 hours of simulation training can't get anything right. The fact that these gunners and pilots can do this, blows the whole "safety switch becomes fort knox" out of the water. Train to muscle memory and maintain constantly. |
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Quoted: Quoted: IMO, regarding the safety off vs. safety on, this is akin to the curve that LE went through some years ago when they started training "finger off the trigger". For about eleventy billion years, LE was trained to keep the finger on the trigger. Someone did a study recently about how much time was actually lost, and it was negligible with proper training. <updated with details>it takes approximately .677 seconds to react and fire a handgun that is already pointed at a threat with the finger out of the triggerguard. Same would go for the safety on an AR, I would think. If you were moving with your thumb on the safety, then sweeping it off and engaging the trigger would be second nature if you trained it that way. Which FWIW, I do train that way, but doing so disqualifies me from being a HSLD operator. edit for spelling and added in facts I'd like to know where the .677 seconds comes from. In my experience with a PACT timer, I can clear leather and get an A zone hit, counting reaction time in under a second, consistently. During practice, I can get down in the .7 second range. This is with a Bianchi Askin's avenger, not a race rig. You'd have to be a slow, dolt to take over half a second for your first shot. Hell, I was doing .3-.25 seconds from third eye position at TDI on 7 yard plates. <snip> http://www.warriortalknews.com/2011/01/finger-off-the-trigger-sacred-cow-in-need-of-butchering.html this isn't the only place I've seen it quoted. |
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Quoted: My instructor pushed the "don't use the slide release". Problem for me is that I am seriously married to that damn thing. I simply cannot train myself off of it.As far as the "slide release" goes, while you might be able to manipulate it under stress, it's better to have a more simple manual of arms as opposed to a more complex one. Therefore, I'll stick with TRB whether it's a malfunction or charging with a fresh mag. You do it how you want. So, a few years back, I installed extended slide releases, and kept what felt natural to me. |
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Quoted: Quoted: My instructor pushed the "don't use the slide release". Problem for me is that I am seriously married to that damn thing. I simply cannot train myself off of it.As far as the "slide release" goes, while you might be able to manipulate it under stress, it's better to have a more simple manual of arms as opposed to a more complex one. Therefore, I'll stick with TRB whether it's a malfunction or charging with a fresh mag. You do it how you want. So, a few years back, I installed extended slide releases, and kept what felt natural to me. I like the slingshot method because it works on any auto pistol you pick up. Some guns have weird control placement when compared to your carry weapon. Sigs and 1911s have very different control layouts, for example. The down side is that you need two hands to do it, which is why the slide stop lever is handy in some scenarios. Training, as always, is key. |
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Quoted:
In a stack, rifle should be muzzle up. The only reason it is trained muzzle down is due to the design of Army training facilities. The shoot houses having instructors above on catwalks. LOL 3. Safety is always on. When transitioning from the low ready to to on target, it gets flipped off After engaging target, it immediately goes back on. Muscle memory |
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And I'm just the opposite, I have always trained to ignore the slide release except as a slide LOCK. The only time I use it is if I want to lower the slide on an empty mag and am too lazy to drop the mag first. Lemme tell ya, that made for some interesting fumbles in a training class when we were doing reload drills but with empty magazines. I just could NOT force myself to switch methods on the fly, I always went for the slide first then had to switch to the slide release.
As far as I'm concerned, both techniques work, both have advantages in terms of operation and safety, neither has a major disadvantage other than when switching between various styles of pistol with the slide release in different spots. I trained the way I did simply because that's how I started and never saw a convincing reason to switch. A buddy I've trained does it the other way because it's more natural to him, different strokes for different folks, I just adjust any training I do for him to suit that method of operation. Quoted:
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My instructor pushed the "don't use the slide release". Problem for me is that I am seriously married to that damn thing. I simply cannot train myself off of it.
As far as the "slide release" goes, while you might be able to manipulate it under stress, it's better to have a more simple manual of arms as opposed to a more complex one. Therefore, I'll stick with TRB whether it's a malfunction or charging with a fresh mag. You do it how you want. So, a few years back, I installed extended slide releases, and kept what felt natural to me. |
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Quoted:
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My instructor pushed the "don't use the slide release". Problem for me is that I am seriously married to that damn thing. I simply cannot train myself off of it.
As far as the "slide release" goes, while you might be able to manipulate it under stress, it's better to have a more simple manual of arms as opposed to a more complex one. Therefore, I'll stick with TRB whether it's a malfunction or charging with a fresh mag. You do it how you want. So, a few years back, I installed extended slide releases, and kept what felt natural to me. That all goes back to train like you fight argument. If thats how you do it then roll with it. If that day comes you will do it, you mind won't but you muscles will so to speak. I actually use to use the slide stop/release but once I started to shoot Sigs the majority of the time I started using the power stroke for all handguns. Reason being, the way I hold my Sig my slide does not stay back on the last round fired, it does of course with my 1911's. Thats ok with me because I compete with a Sig so after 20 rounds I'm not to concerned with needing to reload too often. I carry a 1911 so after 8 rounds should I need so many I'll know I need to reload when the slide locks back. But I still power stroke the slide son I am consistent across the board. With my AR I have a BAD lever on it and have gotten so used to it that fumble on reloads with a rifle that doesn't have it. Fight like you train and all. |
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A tidbit from Kyle Defoor...formerly of DEVGRU, formerly head instructor at Blackwater/USTC, formerly head firearms instructor for Tiger Swan, etc:
Firstly, I do not use the slingshot method anymore. I switched over permanantly around summer of 2005. The reason is fourfold. Number one- I now grip all handguns with my strong hand thumb laid over on my support hand, just a smidge. This is mainly for Sigs, as the release lever is so far to the rear. I keep it the same on all pistols so that I always get slide lock. We have to shoot different pistols sometimes weekly. Bottom line is its simpler, and faster. Number two- I've measured the size of an average mag release button and an average slide release button. The slide release is at a minimum 3X bigger. I no longer buy the argument that you can hit the mag release, and then .005 seconds later you lose your mind and can't find the slide release. Doesn't hold water. Number three- Around 2005, when I started shooting with Bill Go a lot getting ready for IDPA/IPSC type functions, I realized that my biggest weakness was emergency reloads. I simply could not keep up, even though I would be ahead on hits. I can?/could slingshot as fast as I think is possible just because of the fact that's what the Teams do, but, I can use the slide release and at a minimum its .65 sec faster. Number four - As far as I know, John (Shaw) started this whole thing in the early eighties when the Teams started going there. All the old timers have told me that it was mainly because at that time we didn't spend a lot of time on pistols, flight gloves were the tightest glove around, and water/cold (remember, this is pre-9/11) on shipboardings were the biggest worry in regards to reloads. In comparision, Jerry (Barnhardt) would cringe when the training department at each Team, especially The Command, would ask him to teach it to us that way. I equate this to bypassing the bolt release on an M4. Just not the best idea. We shoot/teach here more than most (96,000 rds for me last year) and see it all on a weekly basis, and I'm a firm beleiver in using the slide release now, no matter how you do it (support thumb on 1911, master thumb on others) As far as what to teach, it depends on the weapon (1911's are different), and the desire, physical limitations and experience of the student. In the end, just like gear, simpler, less movement is going to rule. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: My instructor pushed the "don't use the slide release". Problem for me is that I am seriously married to that damn thing. I simply cannot train myself off of it.As far as the "slide release" goes, while you might be able to manipulate it under stress, it's better to have a more simple manual of arms as opposed to a more complex one. Therefore, I'll stick with TRB whether it's a malfunction or charging with a fresh mag. You do it how you want. So, a few years back, I installed extended slide releases, and kept what felt natural to me. I like the slingshot method because it works on any auto pistol you pick up. Some guns have weird control placement when compared to your carry weapon. Sigs and 1911s have very different control layouts, for example. The down side is that you need two hands to do it, which is why the slide stop lever is handy in some scenarios. Training, as always, is key. Yea, I will say that my method only works on glocks, AFAIK. Luckily thats all I train with. |
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Quoted:
A tidbit from Kyle Defoor...formerly of DEVGRU, formerly head instructor at Blackwater/USTC, formerly head firearms instructor for Tiger Swan, etc: Firstly, I do not use the slingshot method anymore. I switched over permanantly around summer of 2005. The reason is fourfold. Thats what I learned from my Blackwater and CACI instructors |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: IMO, regarding the safety off vs. safety on, this is akin to the curve that LE went through some years ago when they started training "finger off the trigger". For about eleventy billion years, LE was trained to keep the finger on the trigger. Someone did a study recently about how much time was actually lost, and it was negligible with proper training. <updated with details>it takes approximately .677 seconds to react and fire a handgun that is already pointed at a threat with the finger out of the triggerguard. Same would go for the safety on an AR, I would think. If you were moving with your thumb on the safety, then sweeping it off and engaging the trigger would be second nature if you trained it that way. Which FWIW, I do train that way, but doing so disqualifies me from being a HSLD operator. edit for spelling and added in facts I'd like to know where the .677 seconds comes from. In my experience with a PACT timer, I can clear leather and get an A zone hit, counting reaction time in under a second, consistently. During practice, I can get down in the .7 second range. This is with a Bianchi Askin's avenger, not a race rig. You'd have to be a slow, dolt to take over half a second for your first shot. Hell, I was doing .3-.25 seconds from third eye position at TDI on 7 yard plates. <snip> http://www.warriortalknews.com/2011/01/finger-off-the-trigger-sacred-cow-in-need-of-butchering.html this isn't the only place I've seen it quoted. I hope that dude isn't in law enforcement. I've seen that article before. All one has to do is juxtapose that material with all the accidental shootings. The one that leaps to mind is the cop broad who nearly shot the proned out perp in the head cause she had her finger on the trigger. The times I stated are real, as timed with a real timer, shooting with a real gun and real bullets at real targets with real hits. If you're covering someone as an LEO, there is no way your finger should be on the trigger unless you're shooting. In any other situation, it is the height of stupidity to do so. Sympathetic reflex is a demonsterable phenomenon. Could someone, given enough time and practice, train out of it...possibly. Do the vast majority of people who handle a gun put in that kind of time...hardly. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: IMO, regarding the safety off vs. safety on, this is akin to the curve that LE went through some years ago when they started training "finger off the trigger". For about eleventy billion years, LE was trained to keep the finger on the trigger. Someone did a study recently about how much time was actually lost, and it was negligible with proper training. <updated with details>it takes approximately .677 seconds to react and fire a handgun that is already pointed at a threat with the finger out of the triggerguard. Same would go for the safety on an AR, I would think. If you were moving with your thumb on the safety, then sweeping it off and engaging the trigger would be second nature if you trained it that way. Which FWIW, I do train that way, but doing so disqualifies me from being a HSLD operator. edit for spelling and added in facts I'd like to know where the .677 seconds comes from. In my experience with a PACT timer, I can clear leather and get an A zone hit, counting reaction time in under a second, consistently. During practice, I can get down in the .7 second range. This is with a Bianchi Askin's avenger, not a race rig. You'd have to be a slow, dolt to take over half a second for your first shot. Hell, I was doing .3-.25 seconds from third eye position at TDI on 7 yard plates. <snip> http://www.warriortalknews.com/2011/01/finger-off-the-trigger-sacred-cow-in-need-of-butchering.html this isn't the only place I've seen it quoted. I hope that dude isn't in law enforcement. I've seen that article before. All one has to do is juxtapose that material with all the accidental shootings. The one that leaps to mind is the cop broad who nearly shot the proned out perp in the head cause she had her finger on the trigger. The times I stated are real, as timed with a real timer, shooting with a real gun and real bullets at real targets with real hits. If you're covering someone as an LEO, there is no way your finger should be on the trigger unless you're shooting. In any other situation, it is the height of stupidity to do so. Sympathetic reflex is a demonsterable phenomenon. Could someone, given enough time and practice, train out of it...possibly. Do the vast majority of people who handle a gun put in that kind of time...hardly. Oh, yea, I'm on the same page with you. Actually, my reason for posting the time, was to support the idea. IE, that it doesn't take much away from your ability to fire on target but adds limitless safety to situation. |
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Quoted: He makes exceptions in his very explanation for what he's doing/teaching. Thereby reducing his argument.A tidbit from Kyle Defoor...formerly of DEVGRU, formerly head instructor at Blackwater/USTC, formerly head firearms instructor for Tiger Swan, etc: Firstly, I do not use the slingshot method anymore. I switched over permanantly around summer of 2005. The reason is fourfold. Number one- I now grip all handguns with my strong hand thumb laid over on my support hand, just a smidge. This is mainly for Sigs, as the release lever is so far to the rear. I keep it the same on all pistols so that I always get slide lock. We have to shoot different pistols sometimes weekly. Bottom line is its simpler, and faster. Number two- I've measured the size of an average mag release button and an average slide release button. The slide release is at a minimum 3X bigger. I no longer buy the argument that you can hit the mag release, and then .005 seconds later you lose your mind and can't find the slide release. Doesn't hold water. Number three- Around 2005, when I started shooting with Bill Go a lot getting ready for IDPA/IPSC type functions, I realized that my biggest weakness was emergency reloads. I simply could not keep up, even though I would be ahead on hits. I can?/could slingshot as fast as I think is possible just because of the fact that's what the Teams do, but, I can use the slide release and at a minimum its .65 sec faster. Number four - As far as I know, John (Shaw) started this whole thing in the early eighties when the Teams started going there. All the old timers have told me that it was mainly because at that time we didn't spend a lot of time on pistols, flight gloves were the tightest glove around, and water/cold (remember, this is pre-9/11) on shipboardings were the biggest worry in regards to reloads. In comparision, Jerry (Barnhardt) would cringe when the training department at each Team, especially The Command, would ask him to teach it to us that way. I equate this to bypassing the bolt release on an M4. Just not the best idea. We shoot/teach here more than most (96,000 rds for me last year) and see it all on a weekly basis, and I'm a firm beleiver in using the slide release now, no matter how you do it (support thumb on 1911, master thumb on others) As far as what to teach, it depends on the weapon (1911's are different), and the desire, physical limitations and experience of the student. In the end, just like gear, simpler, less movement is going to rule. Another reason to TRB for mag change: When I shoot glocks, my thumbs prevent the slide stop from engaging. If I were to be used to using it as a slide release on my 1911s, I may very well insert the mag into the glock and reach for the slide stop on a slide that's already in battery on an empty chamber. As far as IPSC competition goes...if you have to do an emergency reload, you're already out of the running. You NEVER shoot to slide lock in competition. |
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My instructor pushed the "don't use the slide release". Problem for me is that I am seriously married to that damn thing. I simply cannot train myself off of it.
As far as the "slide release" goes, while you might be able to manipulate it under stress, it's better to have a more simple manual of arms as opposed to a more complex one. Therefore, I'll stick with TRB whether it's a malfunction or charging with a fresh mag. You do it how you want. So, a few years back, I installed extended slide releases, and kept what felt natural to me. I like the slingshot method because it works on any auto pistol you pick up. Some guns have weird control placement when compared to your carry weapon. Sigs and 1911s have very different control layouts, for example. The down side is that you need two hands to do it, which is why the slide stop lever is handy in some scenarios. Training, as always, is key. I don't see it as a problem to use different methods with different pistols. When I use my XD I always use the slide release. It's perfectly placed and is fast and smooth as can be. I slam the mag home and instantly click the release dropping the slide into battery. I do not like the slide release on most 1911's I've handled, including the one I often carry. It's a little bit out of reach for my thumb to grab 100% comfortably every time. So I overhand it. Some people say you should train the same with every gun, but that makes no sense to me as it is quite obvious that some guns work differently. I am not flipping a safety off with my XD before I fire, sooo.... Familiarity with your weapon is the important thing. Not mindless drone syndrome where you just "do everything the same." |
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Quoted: I flip the "safety" off my glock when I draw it. This comes from tens of thousands of rounds through 1911 pistols. You will do what you practice when under stress. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: My instructor pushed the "don't use the slide release". Problem for me is that I am seriously married to that damn thing. I simply cannot train myself off of it.As far as the "slide release" goes, while you might be able to manipulate it under stress, it's better to have a more simple manual of arms as opposed to a more complex one. Therefore, I'll stick with TRB whether it's a malfunction or charging with a fresh mag. You do it how you want. So, a few years back, I installed extended slide releases, and kept what felt natural to me. I like the slingshot method because it works on any auto pistol you pick up. Some guns have weird control placement when compared to your carry weapon. Sigs and 1911s have very different control layouts, for example. The down side is that you need two hands to do it, which is why the slide stop lever is handy in some scenarios. Training, as always, is key. I don't see it as a problem to use different methods with different pistols. When I use my XD I always use the slide release. It's perfectly placed and is fast and smooth as can be. I slam the mag home and instantly click the release dropping the slide into battery. I do not like the slide release on most 1911's I've handled, including the one I often carry. It's a little bit out of reach for my thumb to grab 100% comfortably every time. So I overhand it. Some people say you should train the same with every gun, but that makes no sense to me as it is quite obvious that some guns work differently. I am not flipping a safety off with my XD before I fire, sooo.... Familiarity with your weapon is the important thing. Not mindless drone syndrome where you just "do everything the same." I saw a cop at the range practicing his draw with his holster unsnapped. I mentioned that his holster was unsnapped on his last draw (first time I noticed). He says," Yeah, it's too slow with it snapped". I said,"It's none of my business how another man practices. I'd feel bad, though, if I didn't mention that if you're used to drawing like that, you may just stand there and jerk at your pistol with the snap still fastened, in the heat of a gunfight". The guy actually said," I never thought about it like that." Turned out to be a real nice guy, just green. |
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Quoted: <snip> I saw a cop at the range practicing his draw with his holster unsnapped. I mentioned that his holster was unsnapped on his last draw (first time I noticed). He says," Yeah, it's too slow with it snapped". I said,"It's none of my business how another man practices. I'd feel bad, though, if I didn't mention that if you're used to drawing like that, you may just stand there and jerk at your pistol with the snap still fastened, in the heat of a gunfight". The guy actually said," I never thought about it like that." Turned out to be a real nice guy, just green. I find myself snapping the last level of retention off my BH rig on higher risk traffic stops. probably a bad idea, but I do it. |
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Quoted:
When I shoot glocks, my thumbs prevent the slide stop from engaging. If I were to be used to using it as a slide release on my 1911s, I may very well insert the mag into the glock and reach for the slide stop on a slide that's already in battery on an empty chamber. ...and Kyle's argument would be to train for proficiency on the weapon you're using. He and the other BW/USTC instructors had to maintain a qual standard (based on the Hackathorn standards) with a bunch of different handguns. Most people only have to be proficient with one or two pistols. It makes no sense for me to base my handling practices on what I have to do on a pistol that I don't carry often. On Sigs, for instance, my natural grip deactivates the slide lock. It would be silly for me to run my P30 without using the slide release levers because if I pick up a Sig I might not be able to drop the slide from lock. If I run a Sig all the time, it behooves me to do as Kyle did and adjust my grip to allow for the proper operation of the slide lock. I've been on the clock when attempting to use the slide release on a closed slide (by surprise) and on the clock doing a standard slide rack. The difference between the two is negligible. In other words, I lose absolutely nothing in my ability to get the slide racked when required by using the slide release to drop from lock, but on the occasions where the slide is locked open for a reload I gain a minimum of 1/2 a second in speed with less chance of inducing a malfunction by using the slide release. |
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Here's a little story on "fumbling fine motor skills". I was sitting at the Musayieb power plant in Iraq, and had just gotten off radio watch for awhile. Went out to the smoke pit to get some air and see my buddy sitting there, still geared up from patrol, head hung down. I ask him whats up, and he tells me about how he was on the 240, and a guy popped out with an RPG from an ally, and he had fumbled the safety. Finally gets it off and hits the guy. Real shook up. I smoke, BS with him for a minute them leave him alone. On my way back in, I catch a few other guys who had been on the Patrol, who ask if I heard what my buddy did. I tell them what I heard, their jaws drop, and they tell me what really happened. The guy with the RPG had popped out of an ally, firing his RPG immediately (missed). My buddy was on target and cut the guy down before the rocket even exploded. Moral of the story, sometimes you're faster than you think. My buddy thought he let everyone down because he was fumbling with the safety. Everyone he thought he let down thought He was fucking superman. |
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I prefer high ready, I shoot a lot of skeet and I am faster with it. I used low-carry for normal operations, but when in firefights everything was high carry for me. Safety on. Not a problem, it was automatic to disengage. As far as pistol reloads. From an infantry point of view, if you are in a firefight and reloading your pistol, you're a fucking moron and need to be removed from the gene pool. |
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IMO, regarding the safety off vs. safety on, this is akin to the curve that LE went through some years ago when they started training "finger off the trigger". For about eleventy billion years, LE was trained to keep the finger on the trigger. Someone did a study recently about how much time was actually lost, and it was negligible with proper training. <updated with details>it takes approximately .677 seconds to react and fire a handgun that is already pointed at a threat with the finger out of the triggerguard. Same would go for the safety on an AR, I would think. If you were moving with your thumb on the safety, then sweeping it off and engaging the trigger would be second nature if you trained it that way. Which FWIW, I do train that way, but doing so disqualifies me from being a HSLD operator.
edit for spelling and added in facts I'd like to know where the .677 seconds comes from. In my experience with a PACT timer, I can clear leather and get an A zone hit, counting reaction time in under a second, consistently. During practice, I can get down in the .7 second range. This is with a Bianchi Askin's avenger, not a race rig. You'd have to be a slow, dolt to take over half a second for your first shot. Hell, I was doing .3-.25 seconds from third eye position at TDI on 7 yard plates. <snip> http://www.warriortalknews.com/2011/01/finger-off-the-trigger-sacred-cow-in-need-of-butchering.html this isn't the only place I've seen it quoted. In-Before-The-Gabe-Suarez-Shitstorm |
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Where I think you can run into issues with training to hit the slide release is when you have small and recessed releases. I have a P239 as a duty gun and try as I might I can never hit that release worth a damn under less than ideal circumstances. My thumb just seems to slide right past it. I don't think I'm the only one- during qualifications people with the 239 were taking seconds to hit the release. I went to the slingshot method a couple of years ago because I also carry a G19 personally that has a small, stiff release.
While I DO believe that training for a particular gun is good, sometimes the design of the pistol itself doesn't help. There's huge difference between this: 
and this: 
How in the blue hell are you supposed to hit that under stress? |
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Quoted: I can see that. You guys are making love to your rifles, while us JBTs are making love to our pistols. I prefer high ready, I shoot a lot of skeet and I am faster with it. I used low-carry for normal operations, but when in firefights everything was high carry for me. Safety on. Not a problem, it was automatic to disengage. As far as pistol reloads. From an infantry point of view, if you are in a firefight and reloading your pistol, you're a fucking moron and need to be removed from the gene pool.  Also, you aren't the first to recommend high ready, and I'm considering making the training change. |
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Quoted:
In-Before-The-Gabe-Suarez-Shitstorm There shouldn't be one...Suarez is wrong. When you talk to people like Vickers, Defoor, Lamb, Howe, Potynsky, etc...people with impeccable service records and a bunch of time logged doing the real thing in real stress situations (as opposed to primarily square range experience) they all emphasize being sure about that trigger pull rather than being inappropriately obsessed with being uber fast. The reasons for that are legion. All the nonsense Gabe can muster doesn't change that. Contrary to what he may believe, he's not on a higher playing field than everyone else. |
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Quoted: Where I think you can run into issues with training to hit the slide release is when you have small and recessed releases. I have a P239 as a duty gun and try as I might I can never hit that release worth a damn under less than ideal circumstances. My thumb just seems to slide right passed it. I don't think I'm the only one- during qualifications people with the 239 were taking seconds to hit the release. I went to the slingshot method a couple of years ago because I also carry a G19 personally that has a small, stiff release. While I DO believe that training for a particular gun is good, sometimes the design of the pistol itself doesn't help. There's huge difference between this: http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0PDoTAFoH9NTVMAnk.jzbkF/SIG=13d7f1jal/EXP=1300238469/**http%3a//www.pyramydair.com/site/manuals/Beretta-M9A1-07050816/Images/Beretta-firing003.jpg and this: http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0PDoTCToH9NvlAAMOWjzbkF/SIG=1280pptj7/EXP=1300238611/**http%3a//www.tjscustomgunworks.com/Macros/0semibob.jpg How in the blue hell are you supposed to hit that under stress? get a gun with a better design?  |
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Quoted:
Where I think you can run into issues with training to hit the slide release is when you have small and recessed releases. I have a P239 as a duty gun and try as I might I can never hit that release worth a damn under less than ideal circumstances. My thumb just seems to slide right past it. I don't think I'm the only one- during qualifications people with the 239 were taking seconds to hit the release. I went to the slingshot method a couple of years ago because I also carry a G19 personally that has a small, stiff release. While I DO believe that training for a particular gun is good, sometimes the design of the pistol itself doesn't help. ...and that's where you're supposed to exercise some initiative and do what works best for your circumstance on that particular weapon. Hence Kyle's closing statement in the post I quoted. One size doesn't always fit all. I also rack the slide on a P239 because I can't hit the release reliably.
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Quoted:
Here's a little story on "fumbling fine motor skills". I was sitting at the Musayieb power plant in Iraq, and had just gotten off radio watch for awhile. Went out to the smoke pit to get some air and see my buddy sitting there, still geared up from patrol, head hung down. I ask him whats up, and he tells me about how he was on the 240, and a guy popped out with an RPG from an ally, and he had fumbled the safety. Finally gets it off and hits the guy. Real shook up. I smoke, BS with him for a minute them leave him alone. On my way back in, I catch a few other guys who had been on the Patrol, who ask if I heard what my buddy did. I tell them what I heard, their jaws drop, and they tell me what really happened. The guy with the RPG had popped out of an ally, firing his RPG immediately (missed). My buddy was on target and cut the guy down before the rocket even exploded. Moral of the story, sometimes you're faster than you think. My buddy thought he let everyone down because he was fumbling with the safety. Everyone he thought he let down thought He was fucking superman. That is an awesome story with many lessons to be learned hidden inside. |
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Quoted:
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IMO, regarding the safety off vs. safety on, this is akin to the curve that LE went through some years ago when they started training "finger off the trigger". For about eleventy billion years, LE was trained to keep the finger on the trigger. Someone did a study recently about how much time was actually lost, and it was negligible with proper training. <updated with details>it takes approximately .677 seconds to react and fire a handgun that is already pointed at a threat with the finger out of the triggerguard. Same would go for the safety on an AR, I would think. If you were moving with your thumb on the safety, then sweeping it off and engaging the trigger would be second nature if you trained it that way. Which FWIW, I do train that way, but doing so disqualifies me from being a HSLD operator.
edit for spelling and added in facts I'd like to know where the .677 seconds comes from. In my experience with a PACT timer, I can clear leather and get an A zone hit, counting reaction time in under a second, consistently. During practice, I can get down in the .7 second range. This is with a Bianchi Askin's avenger, not a race rig. You'd have to be a slow, dolt to take over half a second for your first shot. Hell, I was doing .3-.25 seconds from third eye position at TDI on 7 yard plates. <snip> http://www.warriortalknews.com/2011/01/finger-off-the-trigger-sacred-cow-in-need-of-butchering.html this isn't the only place I've seen it quoted. Gabe Suarez? This party's just getting started! |
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Slingshot an M9 and you stand a strong risk of flipping the safety on.
I don't even like using the whole hand to lock the slide back. I do now (I find it easier), but I have learned to be very conscientious of hand placement. I'm sure it works fine on Glocks and others. |
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Quoted: I got high ready from an 18B who just got back from 3 months of go-fast CQB school before he deployed.Quoted: I can see that. You guys are making love to your rifles, while us JBTs are making love to our pistols. I prefer high ready, I shoot a lot of skeet and I am faster with it. I used low-carry for normal operations, but when in firefights everything was high carry for me. Safety on. Not a problem, it was automatic to disengage. As far as pistol reloads. From an infantry point of view, if you are in a firefight and reloading your pistol, you're a fucking moron and need to be removed from the gene pool. Also, you aren't the first to recommend high ready, and I'm considering making the training change. Good guy to share a hooch and unlimited ammo with.  as I shot skeet for years before then, it was a natural transition. High ready is faster. Watch the olympics. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: IMO, regarding the safety off vs. safety on, this is akin to the curve that LE went through some years ago when they started training "finger off the trigger". For about eleventy billion years, LE was trained to keep the finger on the trigger. Someone did a study recently about how much time was actually lost, and it was negligible with proper training. <updated with details>it takes approximately .677 seconds to react and fire a handgun that is already pointed at a threat with the finger out of the triggerguard. Same would go for the safety on an AR, I would think. If you were moving with your thumb on the safety, then sweeping it off and engaging the trigger would be second nature if you trained it that way. Which FWIW, I do train that way, but doing so disqualifies me from being a HSLD operator. edit for spelling and added in facts I'd like to know where the .677 seconds comes from. In my experience with a PACT timer, I can clear leather and get an A zone hit, counting reaction time in under a second, consistently. During practice, I can get down in the .7 second range. This is with a Bianchi Askin's avenger, not a race rig. You'd have to be a slow, dolt to take over half a second for your first shot. Hell, I was doing .3-.25 seconds from third eye position at TDI on 7 yard plates. <snip> http://www.warriortalknews.com/2011/01/finger-off-the-trigger-sacred-cow-in-need-of-butchering.html this isn't the only place I've seen it quoted. Gabe Suarez? This party's just getting started! Awww shit... I've done opened a can of shit huh? I don't know the guy, but I googled "finger off the trigger" and looked for the first article that quoted the magic "just over a half second" number I've seen so many places. I'm just distancing myself from the guy(also known as backpeddaling), but not the concept. I dig the concept. |