[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Question about drawing down (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 3/7/2011 12:27:39 PM EDT
| I don't cc now but when I get 21 I plan to. I have been wondering lately what one should do if they have to draw down on some one, and don't have to shoot. Do you call the cops, and get them your story first or go about your business and risk the "victim" telling a shady lie? |
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Call it in. It's almost certain the other guy will, and possibly other witnesses you're not aware of. You want your story on the top of the stack. Thanks everyone I really appreciate it. This has been an issue that has really made me rethink getting my CCW when I turn 21, that is all I want is to get hooked and booked because I may have to draw down. I understand the responsibility in carrying such a device, and will look for any other option that does not involve my sidearm but I don't want to have some liar ruin my chances of becoming a leo because he lied. 
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I will not draw unless I am going to apply deadly force.
My advice is to study the definition of deadly force and the circumstances for its application. Then go through every scenario possible in your mind and what your reaction will be. Become very familiar with your CCW including weak hand shooting and every possible failure and it's quick/efficient resolution. Some people here think that a CCW gives them an automatic badass certificate; be a church mouse and don't put yourself in a position in which you will have to use it. Above all, situational awareness, always. |
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I will not draw unless I am going to apply deadly force. My advice is to study the definition of deadly force and the circumstances for its application. Then go through every scenario possible in your mind and what your reaction will be. Become very familiar with your CCW including weak hand shooting and every possible failure and it's quick/efficient resolution. Some people here think that a CCW gives them an automatic badass certificate; be a church mouse and don't put yourself in a position in which you will have to use it. Above all, situational awareness, always. Exactly, however if I can use the display of my sidearm to avoid a shooting then that is an additional benefit. If I can deescalate the situation into the aggressor retreating then I am fine with that. Displaying a sidearm does have benefits as discussed in another thread. I just wasn't sure if displaying a sidearm needed to have LEO involvement. |
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First one to cry "Woe is me" wins. This, unfortunately. This is why I have a Menacing charge on my record now and the shit stain that almost killed me went home for dinner that night. Wow bud I'm sorry that is my fear! If I get that buh bye any chance at being a deputy.
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Always call it in, even if you don't draw.
I had some jackass threaten to kill me, and follow me and my fiancee home one day... blocked me in with his car, made an advance towards me. I cleared my shirt over my holster and prepared to draw and shoot should he block my forward escape route (I was between two cars, getting out in the parking lot at my complex); he stopped, put his hands up, and (profanely) retreated back to his car and drove away. You bet your ass I was on the phone not more than 5 min. later with the local PD. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: First one to cry "Woe is me" wins. This, unfortunately. This is why I have a Menacing charge on my record now and the shit stain that almost killed me went home for dinner that night. Wow bud I'm sorry that is my fear! If I get that buh bye any chance at being a deputy. Just think....if you become a deputy you can shoot dogs. 
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Call it in. It's almost certain the other guy will, and possibly other witnesses you're not aware of. You want your story on the top of the stack. Thanks everyone I really appreciate it. This has been an issue that has really made me rethink getting my CCW when I turn 21, that is all I want is to get hooked and booked because I may have to draw down. I understand the responsibility in carrying such a device, and will look for any other option that does not involve my sidearm but I don't want to have some liar ruin my chances of becoming a leo because he lied. Take the attitude that it's for in case your life is in danger of ending. You see so many "luck I wasn't carrying" types of responses on arfcom. If you come out of your CCW thinking "why the hell would anyone want to carry", then your instructor has done a good job of pounding in the legal liability aspect. |
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First one to cry "Woe is me" wins. This, unfortunately. This is why I have a Menacing charge on my record now and the shit stain that almost killed me went home for dinner that night. Wow bud I'm sorry that is my fear! If I get that buh bye any chance at being a deputy. Just think....if you become a deputy you can shoot dogs. Hahah, a family member of mine had to shoot a dog that a meth head sicked on him during a search warrant. His fellow deputies gave him shit about it until the day he retired.
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Call it in. It's almost certain the other guy will, and possibly other witnesses you're not aware of. You want your story on the top of the stack. Thanks everyone I really appreciate it. This has been an issue that has really made me rethink getting my CCW when I turn 21, that is all I want is to get hooked and booked because I may have to draw down. I understand the responsibility in carrying such a device, and will look for any other option that does not involve my sidearm but I don't want to have some liar ruin my chances of becoming a leo because he lied. Take the attitude that it's for in case your life is in danger of ending. You see so many "luck I wasn't carrying" types of responses on arfcom. If you come out of your CCW thinking "why the hell would anyone want to carry", then your instructor has done a good job of pounding in the legal liability aspect. Yeah that is kind of how I look at it. Damn its almost like I'd be better of not carrying, but I can say I'd rather go to jail protection my family and myself then have myself or them get hurt because I was stupid and not carrying. |
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I will not draw unless I am going to apply deadly force. My advice is to study the definition of deadly force and the circumstances for its application. Then go through every scenario possible in your mind and what your reaction will be. Become very familiar with your CCW including weak hand shooting and every possible failure and it's quick/efficient resolution. Some people here think that a CCW gives them an automatic badass certificate; be a church mouse and don't put yourself in a position in which you will have to use it. Above all, situational awareness, always. Exactly, however if I can use the display of my sidearm to avoid a shooting then that is an additional benefit. If I can deescalate the situation into the aggressor retreating then I am fine with that. Displaying a sidearm does have benefits as discussed in another thread. I just wasn't sure if displaying a sidearm needed to have LEO involvement. If you display, you will have LEO involvement whether you want it or not. In my opinion if you can deescalate with a display you aren't really in a position in which you will need your CCW. |
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I will not draw unless I am going to apply deadly force. My advice is to study the definition of deadly force and the circumstances for its application. Then go through every scenario possible in your mind and what your reaction will be. Become very familiar with your CCW including weak hand shooting and every possible failure and it's quick/efficient resolution. Some people here think that a CCW gives them an automatic badass certificate; be a church mouse and don't put yourself in a position in which you will have to use it. Above all, situational awareness, always. Exactly, however if I can use the display of my sidearm to avoid a shooting then that is an additional benefit. If I can deescalate the situation into the aggressor retreating then I am fine with that. Displaying a sidearm does have benefits as discussed in another thread. I just wasn't sure if displaying a sidearm needed to have LEO involvement. Some places call that brandishing a firearm (misdemeanor charge). |
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I will not draw unless I am going to apply deadly force. My advice is to study the definition of deadly force and the circumstances for its application. Then go through every scenario possible in your mind and what your reaction will be. Become very familiar with your CCW including weak hand shooting and every possible failure and it's quick/efficient resolution. Some people here think that a CCW gives them an automatic badass certificate; be a church mouse and don't put yourself in a position in which you will have to use it. Above all, situational awareness, always. Exactly, however if I can use the display of my sidearm to avoid a shooting then that is an additional benefit. If I can deescalate the situation into the aggressor retreating then I am fine with that. Displaying a sidearm does have benefits as discussed in another thread. I just wasn't sure if displaying a sidearm needed to have LEO involvement. If you display, you will have LEO involvement whether you want it or not. In my opinion if you can deescalate with a display you aren't really in a position in which you will need your CCW. Depends on the state's description of "brandishing." I did not intentionally brandish––that fucker was about .0025 seconds from having about 9 extra holes, but apparently a govt' model 1911 with a stainless finish catches the eye pretty quick, even in a holster. It de-escalated the situation. In my state, what I did (even if I did it intentionally) is not a crime. |
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I will not draw unless I am going to apply deadly force. My advice is to study the definition of deadly force and the circumstances for its application. Then go through every scenario possible in your mind and what your reaction will be. Become very familiar with your CCW including weak hand shooting and every possible failure and it's quick/efficient resolution. Some people here think that a CCW gives them an automatic badass certificate; be a church mouse and don't put yourself in a position in which you will have to use it. Above all, situational awareness, always. Exactly, however if I can use the display of my sidearm to avoid a shooting then that is an additional benefit. If I can deescalate the situation into the aggressor retreating then I am fine with that. Displaying a sidearm does have benefits as discussed in another thread. I just wasn't sure if displaying a sidearm needed to have LEO involvement. Some places call that brandishing a firearm (misdemeanor charge). Yeah exactly. That is my concern. |
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Quoted: I'm of the same mind. If I ever draw my firearm it will be because I've exhausted every other option and feel I am about to die. I do not add a firearm to an already tense situation in an attempt to de-escalate things. That's what my voice is for. From my mindset, when its time for the gun to come out, its time to shoot. I will not draw unless I am going to apply deadly force. |
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I will not draw unless I am going to apply deadly force. My advice is to study the definition of deadly force and the circumstances for its application. Then go through every scenario possible in your mind and what your reaction will be. Become very familiar with your CCW including weak hand shooting and every possible failure and it's quick/efficient resolution. Some people here think that a CCW gives them an automatic badass certificate; be a church mouse and don't put yourself in a position in which you will have to use it. Above all, situational awareness, always. Exactly, however if I can use the display of my sidearm to avoid a shooting then that is an additional benefit. If I can deescalate the situation into the aggressor retreating then I am fine with that. Displaying a sidearm does have benefits as discussed in another thread. I just wasn't sure if displaying a sidearm needed to have LEO involvement. If you display, you will have LEO involvement whether you want it or not. In my opinion if you can deescalate with a display you aren't really in a position in which you will need your CCW. I disagree. If I am carrying a gun and can draw down on an individual say if he is attempting to car jack me. Say I draw down and command him to back down, leave and then call leos. I would say that it was the display of my firearm that provided the solution. In my opinion a firearm is carried to gain compliance with someone presenting deadly force. That compliance can be measured by either shooting to stop the threat, or by displaying the firearm and the threat backs down. In both cases the threat was mitigated however, one has a better outcome. |
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I don't cc now but when I get 21 I plan to. I have been wondering lately what one should do if they have to draw down on some one, and don't have to shoot. Do you call the cops, and get them your story first or go about your business and risk the "victim" telling a shady lie? Jeez, I thought you were much older. When did you start posting on here, when you were 15?? |
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I will not draw unless I am going to apply deadly force. My advice is to study the definition of deadly force and the circumstances for its application. Then go through every scenario possible in your mind and what your reaction will be. Become very familiar with your CCW including weak hand shooting and every possible failure and it's quick/efficient resolution. Some people here think that a CCW gives them an automatic badass certificate; be a church mouse and don't put yourself in a position in which you will have to use it. Above all, situational awareness, always. Exactly, however if I can use the display of my sidearm to avoid a shooting then that is an additional benefit. If I can deescalate the situation into the aggressor retreating then I am fine with that. Displaying a sidearm does have benefits as discussed in another thread. I just wasn't sure if displaying a sidearm needed to have LEO involvement. Some DAs will call that brandishing. A very good case can be made that if just drawing got you out of a sticky situation then you weren't justified in using deadly force. Remember, most state's laws require that you be in imminent danger of death or grievous bodily injury (or in defense of others in the same situation). If you're walking down that dark alley and three goblins come harrass you, up until the fight is on (and you're losing) the DA may well say that you weren't in that danger. It was strongly hinted in my CCW class (albeit in NC) that you better have some injuries or can show the perp had a deadly weapon (and you had no escape route) or you're looking at a brandishing/assault charge. Also, any time you draw or, heaven forbid, shoot, EXPECT to be arrested and treated like you're a criminal. If you end up shooting someone don't plan on spending the night in your bed. Your responses to LE questions should generally revolve around "I'm pretty shook up right now, I'd prefer not to make a statement", "I was in fear for my life", and I'd be happy to answer your questions once my attorney is present". While the cops may not be out to get you, they're for sure not on your side. |
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I disagree. If I am carrying a gun and can draw down on an individual say if he is attempting to car jack me. Say I draw down and command him to back down, leave and then call leos. I would say that it was the display of my firearm that provided the solution. In my opinion a firearm is carried to gain compliance with someone presenting deadly force. That compliance can be measured by either shooting to stop the threat, or by displaying the firearm and the threat backs down. In both cases the threat was mitigated however, one has a better outcome.
Holy crap! Does you mom know you are using the Internet? You = FAIL, enjoy prison 
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I will not draw unless I am going to apply deadly force. My advice is to study the definition of deadly force and the circumstances for its application. Then go through every scenario possible in your mind and what your reaction will be. Become very familiar with your CCW including weak hand shooting and every possible failure and it's quick/efficient resolution. Some people here think that a CCW gives them an automatic badass certificate; be a church mouse and don't put yourself in a position in which you will have to use it. Above all, situational awareness, always. Exactly, however if I can use the display of my sidearm to avoid a shooting then that is an additional benefit. If I can deescalate the situation into the aggressor retreating then I am fine with that. Displaying a sidearm does have benefits as discussed in another thread. I just wasn't sure if displaying a sidearm needed to have LEO involvement. If you display, you will have LEO involvement whether you want it or not. In my opinion if you can deescalate with a display you aren't really in a position in which you will need your CCW. I disagree. If I am carrying a gun and can draw down on an individual say if he is attempting to car jack me. Say I draw down and command him to back down, leave and then call leos. I would say that it was the display of my firearm that provided the solution. In my opinion a firearm is carried to gain compliance with someone presenting deadly force. That compliance can be measured by either shooting to stop the threat, or by displaying the firearm and the threat backs down. In both cases the threat was mitigated however, one has a better outcome. You do not draw a weapon to gain compliance, that's what your voice and demeanor are for. You draw a weapon to make someone dead. Carried for 21 years in the mil. including law enforcement, security, and contract security and have had a CCW for 10 years. You seriously need to rethink all that you have up to this point and get some training. No offense, guys like you scare me. |
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I will not draw unless I am going to apply deadly force. My advice is to study the definition of deadly force and the circumstances for its application. Then go through every scenario possible in your mind and what your reaction will be. Become very familiar with your CCW including weak hand shooting and every possible failure and it's quick/efficient resolution. Some people here think that a CCW gives them an automatic badass certificate; be a church mouse and don't put yourself in a position in which you will have to use it. Above all, situational awareness, always. Exactly, however if I can use the display of my sidearm to avoid a shooting then that is an additional benefit. If I can deescalate the situation into the aggressor retreating then I am fine with that. Displaying a sidearm does have benefits as discussed in another thread. I just wasn't sure if displaying a sidearm needed to have LEO involvement. If you display, you will have LEO involvement whether you want it or not. In my opinion if you can deescalate with a display you aren't really in a position in which you will need your CCW. I disagree. If I am carrying a gun and can draw down on an individual say if he is attempting to car jack me. Say I draw down and command him to back down, leave and then call leos. I would say that it was the display of my firearm that provided the solution. In my opinion a firearm is carried to gain compliance with someone presenting deadly force. That compliance can be measured by either shooting to stop the threat, or by displaying the firearm and the threat backs down. In both cases the threat was mitigated however, one has a better outcome. You do not draw a weapon to gain compliance, that's what your voice and demeanor are for. You draw a weapon to make someone dead. Carried for 21 years in the mil. including law enforcement, security, and contract security and have had a CCW for 10 years. You seriously need to rethink all that you have up to this point and get some training. No offense, guys like you scare me. I don't take offense to that, I am just trying to see if my opinion regarding carrying is what is considered being in the right. As I stated I have some time before I can carry and I want to make sure that I am viewing it in the correct mindset. So, based upon your statement would you consider physical assault deadly force? After all, if you have to draw down because someone is going physical does that make you a pussy? My reasoning is that you can get killed just as easy via a punch as you can a gun shot? |
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I disagree. If I am carrying a gun and can draw down on an individual say if he is attempting to car jack me. Say I draw down and command him to back down, leave and then call leos. I would say that it was the display of my firearm that provided the solution. In my opinion a firearm is carried to gain compliance with someone presenting deadly force. That compliance can be measured by either shooting to stop the threat, or by displaying the firearm and the threat backs down. In both cases the threat was mitigated however, one has a better outcome.
Holy crap! Does you mom know you are using the Internet? You = FAIL, enjoy prison Unfortunately for you I live on my own, and she died when I was 16 so nice try...
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I don't cc now but when I get 21 I plan to. I have been wondering lately what one should do if they have to draw down on some one, and don't have to shoot. Do you call the cops, and get them your story first or go about your business and risk the "victim" telling a shady lie? Jeez, I thought you were much older. When did you start posting on here, when you were 15?? 
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I will not draw unless I am going to apply deadly force. My advice is to study the definition of deadly force and the circumstances for its application. Then go through every scenario possible in your mind and what your reaction will be. Become very familiar with your CCW including weak hand shooting and every possible failure and it's quick/efficient resolution. Some people here think that a CCW gives them an automatic badass certificate; be a church mouse and don't put yourself in a position in which you will have to use it. Above all, situational awareness, always. Exactly, however if I can use the display of my sidearm to avoid a shooting then that is an additional benefit. If I can deescalate the situation into the aggressor retreating then I am fine with that. Displaying a sidearm does have benefits as discussed in another thread. I just wasn't sure if displaying a sidearm needed to have LEO involvement. If you display, you will have LEO involvement whether you want it or not. In my opinion if you can deescalate with a display you aren't really in a position in which you will need your CCW. I disagree. If I am carrying a gun and can draw down on an individual say if he is attempting to car jack me. Say I draw down and command him to back down, leave and then call leos. I would say that it was the display of my firearm that provided the solution. In my opinion a firearm is carried to gain compliance with someone presenting deadly force. That compliance can be measured by either shooting to stop the threat, or by displaying the firearm and the threat backs down. In both cases the threat was mitigated however, one has a better outcome. You do not draw a weapon to gain compliance, that's what your voice and demeanor are for. You draw a weapon to make someone dead. Carried for 21 years in the mil. including law enforcement, security, and contract security and have had a CCW for 10 years. You seriously need to rethink all that you have up to this point and get some training. No offense, guys like you scare me. I don't take offense to that, I am just trying to see if my opinion regarding carrying is what is considered being in the right. As I stated I have some time before I can carry and I want to make sure that I am viewing it in the correct mindset. So, based upon your statement would you consider physical assault deadly force? After all, if you have to draw down because someone is going physical does that make you a pussy? My reasoning is that you can get killed just as easy via a punch as you can a gun shot? To equate getting bitch slapped with shot = all kinds of fail. Here it is from memory old school: Deadly force is that force which a person knows or should know could create a substantial risk of death serious bodily harm. Its use is only justified under conditions of extreme necessity, as a last resort when all lesser means have failed or can not be reasonably employed. Circumstances: Self defense or defense of others Prevent serious crimes against persons Prevent the theft of property vital to national security Prevent the theft of property inherently dangerous to others Arrest or apprehension Escape Memorized that shit when I was 18 and can still remember it verbatim, I'm 47. |
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I will not draw unless I am going to apply deadly force. My advice is to study the definition of deadly force and the circumstances for its application. Then go through every scenario possible in your mind and what your reaction will be. Become very familiar with your CCW including weak hand shooting and every possible failure and it's quick/efficient resolution. Some people here think that a CCW gives them an automatic badass certificate; be a church mouse and don't put yourself in a position in which you will have to use it. Above all, situational awareness, always. Exactly, however if I can use the display of my sidearm to avoid a shooting then that is an additional benefit. If I can deescalate the situation into the aggressor retreating then I am fine with that. Displaying a sidearm does have benefits as discussed in another thread. I just wasn't sure if displaying a sidearm needed to have LEO involvement. If you display, you will have LEO involvement whether you want it or not. In my opinion if you can deescalate with a display you aren't really in a position in which you will need your CCW. I disagree. If I am carrying a gun and can draw down on an individual say if he is attempting to car jack me. Say I draw down and command him to back down, leave and then call leos. I would say that it was the display of my firearm that provided the solution. In my opinion a firearm is carried to gain compliance with someone presenting deadly force. That compliance can be measured by either shooting to stop the threat, or by displaying the firearm and the threat backs down. In both cases the threat was mitigated however, one has a better outcome. You do not draw a weapon to gain compliance, that's what your voice and demeanor are for. You draw a weapon to make someone dead. Carried for 21 years in the mil. including law enforcement, security, and contract security and have had a CCW for 10 years. You seriously need to rethink all that you have up to this point and get some training. No offense, guys like you scare me. I don't take offense to that, I am just trying to see if my opinion regarding carrying is what is considered being in the right. As I stated I have some time before I can carry and I want to make sure that I am viewing it in the correct mindset. So, based upon your statement would you consider physical assault deadly force? After all, if you have to draw down because someone is going physical does that make you a pussy? My reasoning is that you can get killed just as easy via a punch as you can a gun shot? To equate getting bitch slapped with shot = all kinds of fail. Here it is from memory old school: Deadly force is that force which a person knows or should know could create a substantial risk of death serious bodily harm. Its use is only justified under conditions of extreme necessity, as a last resort when all lesser means have failed or can not be reasonably employed. Circumstances: Self defense or defense of others Prevent serious crimes against persons Prevent the theft of property vital to national security Prevent the theft of property inherently dangerous to others Arrest or apprehension Escape Memorized that shit when I was 18 and can still remember it verbatim, I'm 47. down would be one of those lesser means if I am reading this statement correctly? You know very well that I wasn't referencing getting bitch slapped as physical assault I'm talking about getting punched and or kicked in the head. While carrying and you get attacked you add an additional threat of having your gun fall out during the conflict which escalates the situation. It would appear that one has a split second to decide to employ deadly force against that aggressor, or else they could in up on the ground getting stomped or rendered unconscious. What I am failing to recognize is why in your definition of deadly force its stated "last resort when all lesser means have failed." drawing down would appear to be one of those lesser instances when its justified. For example, law enforcement does not clear leather only to shoot and kill someone, they draw down to gain compliance with their orders. Why is it that such a concept can not extend to civilians? |
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Trying to point out that even putting that in your mind puts you in danger. Many people here don't understand the burden and responsibility that they are saddled with by CCWing.
Can't go bar hopping with your pals while CCWing, or talk shit to people you don't know. Or flip dumb asses off on the interstate. Best to give yourself an ability to use lesser means. Had a tweaker approach my wife and I once in the parking lot of a Harley dealer, started asking for money, I used a loud firm voice, "get the fuck out of here", that's all it took. Didn't think about drawing or whipping out my blur. |
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I will not draw unless I am going to apply deadly force. My advice is to study the definition of deadly force and the circumstances for its application. Then go through every scenario possible in your mind and what your reaction will be. Become very familiar with your CCW including weak hand shooting and every possible failure and it's quick/efficient resolution. Some people here think that a CCW gives them an automatic badass certificate; be a church mouse and don't put yourself in a position in which you will have to use it. Above all, situational awareness, always. Exactly, however if I can use the display of my sidearm to avoid a shooting then that is an additional benefit. If I can deescalate the situation into the aggressor retreating then I am fine with that. Displaying a sidearm does have benefits as discussed in another thread. I just wasn't sure if displaying a sidearm needed to have LEO involvement. If you display, you will have LEO involvement whether you want it or not. In my opinion if you can deescalate with a display you aren't really in a position in which you will need your CCW. I disagree. If I am carrying a gun and can draw down on an individual say if he is attempting to car jack me. Say I draw down and command him to back down, leave and then call leos. I would say that it was the display of my firearm that provided the solution. In my opinion a firearm is carried to gain compliance with someone presenting deadly force. That compliance can be measured by either shooting to stop the threat, or by displaying the firearm and the threat backs down. In both cases the threat was mitigated however, one has a better outcome. You do not draw a weapon to gain compliance, that's what your voice and demeanor are for. You draw a weapon to make someone dead. Carried for 21 years in the mil. including law enforcement, security, and contract security and have had a CCW for 10 years. You seriously need to rethink all that you have up to this point and get some training. No offense, guys like you scare me. I don't take offense to that, I am just trying to see if my opinion regarding carrying is what is considered being in the right. As I stated I have some time before I can carry and I want to make sure that I am viewing it in the correct mindset. So, based upon your statement would you consider physical assault deadly force? After all, if you have to draw down because someone is going physical does that make you a pussy? My reasoning is that you can get killed just as easy via a punch as you can a gun shot? To equate getting bitch slapped with shot = all kinds of fail. Here it is from memory old school: Deadly force is that force which a person knows or should know could create a substantial risk of death serious bodily harm. Its use is only justified under conditions of extreme necessity, as a last resort when all lesser means have failed or can not be reasonably employed. Circumstances: Self defense or defense of others Prevent serious crimes against persons Prevent the theft of property vital to national security Prevent the theft of property inherently dangerous to others Arrest or apprehension Escape Memorized that shit when I was 18 and can still remember it verbatim, I'm 47. down would be one of those lesser means if I am reading this statement correctly? You know very well that I wasn't referencing getting bitch slapped as physical assault I'm talking about getting punched and or kicked in the head. While carrying and you get attacked you add an additional threat of having your gun fall out during the conflict which escalates the situation. It would appear that one has a split second to decide to employ deadly force against that aggressor, or else they could in up on the ground getting stomped or rendered unconscious. What I am failing to recognize is why in your definition of deadly force its stated "last resort when all lesser means have failed." drawing down would appear to be one of those lesser instances when its justified. For example, law enforcement does not clear leather only to shoot and kill someone, they draw down to gain compliance with their orders. Why is it that such a concept can not extend to civilians? Generally speaking, cops do not consider themselves equal to you and will treat you accordingly. I should mention not all cops are like this. Cops are civilians too just fyi. |
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I will not draw unless I am going to apply deadly force. My advice is to study the definition of deadly force and the circumstances for its application. Then go through every scenario possible in your mind and what your reaction will be. Become very familiar with your CCW including weak hand shooting and every possible failure and it's quick/efficient resolution. Some people here think that a CCW gives them an automatic badass certificate; be a church mouse and don't put yourself in a position in which you will have to use it. Above all, situational awareness, always. Exactly, however if I can use the display of my sidearm to avoid a shooting then that is an additional benefit. If I can deescalate the situation into the aggressor retreating then I am fine with that. Displaying a sidearm does have benefits as discussed in another thread. I just wasn't sure if displaying a sidearm needed to have LEO involvement. If you display, you will have LEO involvement whether you want it or not. In my opinion if you can deescalate with a display you aren't really in a position in which you will need your CCW. I disagree. If I am carrying a gun and can draw down on an individual say if he is attempting to car jack me. Say I draw down and command him to back down, leave and then call leos. I would say that it was the display of my firearm that provided the solution. In my opinion a firearm is carried to gain compliance with someone presenting deadly force. That compliance can be measured by either shooting to stop the threat, or by displaying the firearm and the threat backs down. In both cases the threat was mitigated however, one has a better outcome. You do not draw a weapon to gain compliance, that's what your voice and demeanor are for. You draw a weapon to make someone dead. Carried for 21 years in the mil. including law enforcement, security, and contract security and have had a CCW for 10 years. You seriously need to rethink all that you have up to this point and get some training. No offense, guys like you scare me. I don't take offense to that, I am just trying to see if my opinion regarding carrying is what is considered being in the right. As I stated I have some time before I can carry and I want to make sure that I am viewing it in the correct mindset. So, based upon your statement would you consider physical assault deadly force? After all, if you have to draw down because someone is going physical does that make you a pussy? My reasoning is that you can get killed just as easy via a punch as you can a gun shot? To equate getting bitch slapped with shot = all kinds of fail. Here it is from memory old school: Deadly force is that force which a person knows or should know could create a substantial risk of death serious bodily harm. Its use is only justified under conditions of extreme necessity, as a last resort when all lesser means have failed or can not be reasonably employed. Circumstances: Self defense or defense of others Prevent serious crimes against persons Prevent the theft of property vital to national security Prevent the theft of property inherently dangerous to others Arrest or apprehension Escape Memorized that shit when I was 18 and can still remember it verbatim, I'm 47. down would be one of those lesser means if I am reading this statement correctly? You know very well that I wasn't referencing getting bitch slapped as physical assault I'm talking about getting punched and or kicked in the head. While carrying and you get attacked you add an additional threat of having your gun fall out during the conflict which escalates the situation. It would appear that one has a split second to decide to employ deadly force against that aggressor, or else they could in up on the ground getting stomped or rendered unconscious. What I am failing to recognize is why in your definition of deadly force its stated "last resort when all lesser means have failed." drawing down would appear to be one of those lesser instances when its justified. For example, law enforcement does not clear leather only to shoot and kill someone, they draw down to gain compliance with their orders. Why is it that such a concept can not extend to civilians? It is NOT that hard to stay out of fights, seriously. I am 32 and have avoided them since probably 14. (standard stupid kid fight stuff). If you aren't mature enough to do this, then don't carry. |
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Trying to point out that even putting that in your mind puts you in danger. Many people here don't understand the burden and responsibility that they are saddled with by CCWing. Can't go bar hopping with your pals while CCWing, or talk shit to people you don't know. Or flip dumb asses off on the interstate. Best to give yourself an ability to use lesser means. Had a tweaker approach my wife and I once in the parking lot of a Harley dealer, started asking for money, I used a loud firm voice, "get the fuck out of here", that's all it took. Didn't think about drawing or whipping out my blur. Great now we are getting into it. Say this individual kept advancing and didn't leave say for instance that you were blocked from egress as in he was between you and your car. Simply advancing towards someone does not equate to using preemptive deadly force. Given that, if you could have drew down and further repeated your commands getting him to comply and going about your business would you do so? Surely you wouldn't shoot a guy simply for walking towards you, if he is unarmed? Or would you go hands on with the guy? Or would you turn your back towards him and walk away? Lastly, had it escalated to hands on would you then draw and end the hostile action via a shot or would you have continued to fight the individual to the ground? |
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I will not draw unless I am going to apply deadly force. My advice is to study the definition of deadly force and the circumstances for its application. Then go through every scenario possible in your mind and what your reaction will be. Become very familiar with your CCW including weak hand shooting and every possible failure and it's quick/efficient resolution. Some people here think that a CCW gives them an automatic badass certificate; be a church mouse and don't put yourself in a position in which you will have to use it. Above all, situational awareness, always. Exactly, however if I can use the display of my sidearm to avoid a shooting then that is an additional benefit. If I can deescalate the situation into the aggressor retreating then I am fine with that. Displaying a sidearm does have benefits as discussed in another thread. I just wasn't sure if displaying a sidearm needed to have LEO involvement. If you display, you will have LEO involvement whether you want it or not. In my opinion if you can deescalate with a display you aren't really in a position in which you will need your CCW. I disagree. If I am carrying a gun and can draw down on an individual say if he is attempting to car jack me. Say I draw down and command him to back down, leave and then call leos. I would say that it was the display of my firearm that provided the solution. In my opinion a firearm is carried to gain compliance with someone presenting deadly force. That compliance can be measured by either shooting to stop the threat, or by displaying the firearm and the threat backs down. In both cases the threat was mitigated however, one has a better outcome. You do not draw a weapon to gain compliance, that's what your voice and demeanor are for. You draw a weapon to make someone dead. Carried for 21 years in the mil. including law enforcement, security, and contract security and have had a CCW for 10 years. You seriously need to rethink all that you have up to this point and get some training. No offense, guys like you scare me. I don't take offense to that, I am just trying to see if my opinion regarding carrying is what is considered being in the right. As I stated I have some time before I can carry and I want to make sure that I am viewing it in the correct mindset. So, based upon your statement would you consider physical assault deadly force? After all, if you have to draw down because someone is going physical does that make you a pussy? My reasoning is that you can get killed just as easy via a punch as you can a gun shot? To equate getting bitch slapped with shot = all kinds of fail. Here it is from memory old school: Deadly force is that force which a person knows or should know could create a substantial risk of death serious bodily harm. Its use is only justified under conditions of extreme necessity, as a last resort when all lesser means have failed or can not be reasonably employed. Circumstances: Self defense or defense of others Prevent serious crimes against persons Prevent the theft of property vital to national security Prevent the theft of property inherently dangerous to others Arrest or apprehension Escape Memorized that shit when I was 18 and can still remember it verbatim, I'm 47. down would be one of those lesser means if I am reading this statement correctly? You know very well that I wasn't referencing getting bitch slapped as physical assault I'm talking about getting punched and or kicked in the head. While carrying and you get attacked you add an additional threat of having your gun fall out during the conflict which escalates the situation. It would appear that one has a split second to decide to employ deadly force against that aggressor, or else they could in up on the ground getting stomped or rendered unconscious. What I am failing to recognize is why in your definition of deadly force its stated "last resort when all lesser means have failed." drawing down would appear to be one of those lesser instances when its justified. For example, law enforcement does not clear leather only to shoot and kill someone, they draw down to gain compliance with their orders. Why is it that such a concept can not extend to civilians? It is NOT that hard to stay out of fights, seriously. I am 32 and have avoided them since probably 14. (standard stupid kid fight stuff). If you aren't mature enough to do this, then don't carry. That is the whole point of this thread. I haven't had an issue with a fight since grade school. I avoid parties, bars, shady people, and the bad side of town. But I am trying to think of what if scenarios because I do not want to be in the wrong here. |
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I will not draw unless I am going to apply deadly force. My advice is to study the definition of deadly force and the circumstances for its application. Then go through every scenario possible in your mind and what your reaction will be. Become very familiar with your CCW including weak hand shooting and every possible failure and it's quick/efficient resolution. Some people here think that a CCW gives them an automatic badass certificate; be a church mouse and don't put yourself in a position in which you will have to use it. Above all, situational awareness, always. Exactly, however if I can use the display of my sidearm to avoid a shooting then that is an additional benefit. If I can deescalate the situation into the aggressor retreating then I am fine with that. Displaying a sidearm does have benefits as discussed in another thread. I just wasn't sure if displaying a sidearm needed to have LEO involvement. If you display, you will have LEO involvement whether you want it or not. In my opinion if you can deescalate with a display you aren't really in a position in which you will need your CCW. I disagree. If I am carrying a gun and can draw down on an individual say if he is attempting to car jack me. Say I draw down and command him to back down, leave and then call leos. I would say that it was the display of my firearm that provided the solution. In my opinion a firearm is carried to gain compliance with someone presenting deadly force. That compliance can be measured by either shooting to stop the threat, or by displaying the firearm and the threat backs down. In both cases the threat was mitigated however, one has a better outcome. You do not draw a weapon to gain compliance, that's what your voice and demeanor are for. You draw a weapon to make someone dead. Carried for 21 years in the mil. including law enforcement, security, and contract security and have had a CCW for 10 years. You seriously need to rethink all that you have up to this point and get some training. No offense, guys like you scare me. I don't take offense to that, I am just trying to see if my opinion regarding carrying is what is considered being in the right. As I stated I have some time before I can carry and I want to make sure that I am viewing it in the correct mindset. So, based upon your statement would you consider physical assault deadly force? After all, if you have to draw down because someone is going physical does that make you a pussy? My reasoning is that you can get killed just as easy via a punch as you can a gun shot? To equate getting bitch slapped with shot = all kinds of fail. Here it is from memory old school: Deadly force is that force which a person knows or should know could create a substantial risk of death serious bodily harm. Its use is only justified under conditions of extreme necessity, as a last resort when all lesser means have failed or can not be reasonably employed. Circumstances: Self defense or defense of others Prevent serious crimes against persons Prevent the theft of property vital to national security Prevent the theft of property inherently dangerous to others Arrest or apprehension Escape Memorized that shit when I was 18 and can still remember it verbatim, I'm 47. down would be one of those lesser means if I am reading this statement correctly? You know very well that I wasn't referencing getting bitch slapped as physical assault I'm talking about getting punched and or kicked in the head. While carrying and you get attacked you add an additional threat of having your gun fall out during the conflict which escalates the situation. It would appear that one has a split second to decide to employ deadly force against that aggressor, or else they could in up on the ground getting stomped or rendered unconscious. What I am failing to recognize is why in your definition of deadly force its stated "last resort when all lesser means have failed." drawing down would appear to be one of those lesser instances when its justified. For example, law enforcement does not clear leather only to shoot and kill someone, they draw down to gain compliance with their orders. Why is it that such a concept can not extend to civilians? Generally speaking, cops do not consider themselves equal to you and will treat you accordingly. I should mention not all cops are like this. Cops are civilians too just fyi. Right exactly, but what I am saying is that why is it bad to utilize the display of force to preempt any further escalation of hostility from the aggressor, which would then require the use of force to end it? |
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I will not draw unless I am going to apply deadly force. My advice is to study the definition of deadly force and the circumstances for its application. Then go through every scenario possible in your mind and what your reaction will be. Become very familiar with your CCW including weak hand shooting and every possible failure and it's quick/efficient resolution. Some people here think that a CCW gives them an automatic badass certificate; be a church mouse and don't put yourself in a position in which you will have to use it. Above all, situational awareness, always. Good advice ETA: Couldn't wait to get my permit. Once I got it, it hit me. When you strap on a gun, you also carry a great weight on your shoulders. First time you go out packing, you really feel it. Everytime you put on a gun, you better remember it. This ain't no joke, no game and shit can happend quickly and violently. It's a lot of responsibility and once you realize it - the better off you'll be. Not saying you don't - but the last thing on anyone's mind oughta be shooting/drawing getting into a fight. |
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It is NOT that hard to stay out of fights, seriously. I am 32 and have avoided them since probably 14. (standard stupid kid fight stuff). If you aren't mature enough to do this, then don't carry. That is the whole point of this thread. I haven't had an issue with a fight since grade school. I avoid parties, bars, shady people, and the bad side of town. But I am trying to think of what if scenarios because I do not want to be in the wrong here. That is good to hear (seriously, many 20-something kids don't know how to do that). What it sounds like you really need to do is take a good CCW class, what/where those are, I do not know, I don't carry myself (see state ). But I would like to eventually take one for the interest of this stuff. See your hometown forum for recommendations.
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I will not draw unless I am going to apply deadly force. My advice is to study the definition of deadly force and the circumstances for its application. Then go through every scenario possible in your mind and what your reaction will be. Become very familiar with your CCW including weak hand shooting and every possible failure and it's quick/efficient resolution. Some people here think that a CCW gives them an automatic badass certificate; be a church mouse and don't put yourself in a position in which you will have to use it. Above all, situational awareness, always. Good advice I do agree, I do recognize that I am making a serious commitment if I choose to carry. I understand I will have to get called a faggot and do nothing but walk away. I understand drinking +ccw is a no go. I get that, but what I am referencing this particular aspect of carrying. What I need answered is this "Great now we are getting into it. Say this individual kept advancing and didn't leave say for instance that you were blocked from egress as in he was between you and your car. Simply advancing towards someone does not equate to using preemptive deadly force. Given that, if you could have drew down and further repeated your commands getting him to comply and going about your business would you do so? Surely you wouldn't shoot a guy simply for walking towards you, if he is unarmed? Or would you go hands on with the guy? Or would you turn your back towards him and walk away? Lastly, had it escalated to hands on would you then draw and end the hostile action via a shot or would you have continued to fight the individual to the ground? " This was my response to POD. |
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It is NOT that hard to stay out of fights, seriously. I am 32 and have avoided them since probably 14. (standard stupid kid fight stuff). If you aren't mature enough to do this, then don't carry. That is the whole point of this thread. I haven't had an issue with a fight since grade school. I avoid parties, bars, shady people, and the bad side of town. But I am trying to think of what if scenarios because I do not want to be in the wrong here. That is good to hear (seriously, many 20-something kids don't know how to do that). What it sounds like you really need to do is take a good CCW class, what/where those are, I do not know, I don't carry myself (see state ). But I would like to eventually take one for the interest of this stuff. See your hometown forum for recommendations.
I've personally observed the effects of drinking and driving as referenced earlier, in addition to working wrecks as a firefighter/emt. As well as had leo's in my family since the 50's, so its a natural progression for myself. I've never really had an interest in anything else. |
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Trying to point out that even putting that in your mind puts you in danger. Many people here don't understand the burden and responsibility that they are saddled with by CCWing. Can't go bar hopping with your pals while CCWing, or talk shit to people you don't know. Or flip dumb asses off on the interstate. Best to give yourself an ability to use lesser means. Had a tweaker approach my wife and I once in the parking lot of a Harley dealer, started asking for money, I used a loud firm voice, "get the fuck out of here", that's all it took. Didn't think about drawing or whipping out my blur. Great now we are getting into it. Say this individual kept advancing and didn't leave say for instance that you were blocked from egress as in he was between you and your car. Simply advancing towards someone does not equate to using preemptive deadly force. Given that, if you could have drew down and further repeated your commands getting him to comply and going about your business would you do so? Surely you wouldn't shoot a guy simply for walking towards you, if he is unarmed? Or would you go hands on with the guy? Or would you turn your back towards him and walk away? Lastly, had it escalated to hands on would you then draw and end the hostile action via a shot or would you have continued to fight the individual to the ground? In the three seconds or so I had to make a decision here is what I did. I got between him add my wife with the car behind her easily accessible, the dealer was to the side left easily accessible. I sized him up 165ish 5'8" blond hair unshaven, clothing was dirty and he did not have any visible weapons along his waist line and hands were empty. I am 6'0" 220 and did not feel anything but inconvenienced by talking to him at all. I squared around as my wife walked behind and to the dealer and I spoke he immediately stopped and turned as I was no longer perceived as a target or sucker. Had it escalated I would have gone into the dealer and called the cops |
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Get some training. There is no such thing as "drawing down". When the threat level rises to that point, the gun goes bang. No matter what, it the gun comes out, YOU CALL THE PO-PO. What if he turns around and hauls ass when he figures out what's happening? |
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I will say the same thing I say to everyone that asks this question in my CCDW courses.
"This class covers everything up to the point when you draw your weapon, after that point you are on your own. I recommend you speak to an attorney about these questions." The last thing I want is a former student of mine to get arrested and then the police and state CCDW investigators start asking me why I told him or her when they could shoot someone or draw their gun on someone. I don't ever give advice on when to draw or when to shoot, I give advice on how to handle weapons and select holsters and such. |
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Trying to point out that even putting that in your mind puts you in danger. Many people here don't understand the burden and responsibility that they are saddled with by CCWing. Can't go bar hopping with your pals while CCWing, or talk shit to people you don't know. Or flip dumb asses off on the interstate. Best to give yourself an ability to use lesser means. Had a tweaker approach my wife and I once in the parking lot of a Harley dealer, started asking for money, I used a loud firm voice, "get the fuck out of here", that's all it took. Didn't think about drawing or whipping out my blur. Great now we are getting into it. Say this individual kept advancing and didn't leave say for instance that you were blocked from egress as in he was between you and your car. Simply advancing towards someone does not equate to using preemptive deadly force. Given that, if you could have drew down and further repeated your commands getting him to comply and going about your business would you do so? Surely you wouldn't shoot a guy simply for walking towards you, if he is unarmed? Or would you go hands on with the guy? Or would you turn your back towards him and walk away? Lastly, had it escalated to hands on would you then draw and end the hostile action via a shot or would you have continued to fight the individual to the ground? In the three seconds or so I had to make a decision here is what I did. I got between him add my wife with the car behind her easily accessible, the dealer was to the side left easily accessible. I sized him up 165ish 5'8" blond hair unshaven, clothing was dirty and he did not have any visible weapons along his waist line and hands were empty. I am 6'0" 220 and did not feel anything but inconvenienced by talking to him at all. I squared around as my wife walked behind and to the dealer and I spoke he immediately stopped and turned as I was no longer perceived as a target. Had it escalated I would have gone into the dealer and called the cops Ok, say that the dealer was closed as in your could not enter there. He was between you and your car, what would you do then? |
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Get some training. There is no such thing as "drawing down". When the threat level rises to that point, the gun goes bang. No matter what, it the gun comes out, YOU CALL THE PO-PO. What if he turns around and hauls ass when he figures out what's happening? Exactly, I'd much rather display the threat of force( being committed to using it if compliance is not garnered) then having to shoot someone. What I am curious about is it seems like there is no middle ground. Either you are in no trouble, or you will kill someone why isn't it that someone can't ratchet up the level of force while not reaching deadly force to gain compliance? |