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Posted: 9/15/2010 4:57:18 PM EDT
How many innocent civilians have died by our bullets and bombs? I've seen numbers from 8000 to 1.6 million CIVILIANS. 8000 seems way too high for collateral damage. It's not like we carpet bomb or napalm entire cities anymore.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 4:58:55 PM EDT
I'm guessing that you already know the official number.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 5:00:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By America-first:
I'm guessing that you already know the official number.


No I'm hoping random arfcom surfer will pull a number out of his ass because it has to be more accurate.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 5:00:49 PM EDT
First you'd have to find someone in that country that is innocent. Then you would have to prove that they are indeed civilians.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 5:03:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BD1a:
First you'd have to find someone in that country that is innocent. Then you would have to prove that they are indeed civilians.


Hopefully my sarcasm meter is out of adjustment. But...... really?
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 5:03:18 PM EDT
Pre-Obama: 6.2 million

Now that Obie's in office: Maybe two, but purely accidental.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 5:04:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BD1a:
First you'd have to find someone in that country that is innocent. Then you would have to prove that they are indeed civilians.


Right. I'm gonna go with 38 innocent civilians dead.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 5:05:04 PM EDT
87 civilians dead.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 5:07:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By gogoquadzilla:
Originally Posted By America-first:
I'm guessing that you already know the official number.


No I'm hoping random arfcom surfer will pull a number out of his ass because it has to be more accurate.


Nope; I'm betting shenanigans,
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 5:07:43 PM EDT
trolls are out heavy tonight. drive careful folks.


Link Posted: 9/15/2010 5:08:04 PM EDT
This woman says there were 4.4 million killed. These two bullets killed her and her husband, but they got better.

Link Posted: 9/15/2010 5:08:35 PM EDT
Thing is, the people over there, even if they're not our "Enemies" lie out their ass, so it's real hard to get a real figure.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 5:11:17 PM EDT
Today's "civilian" is tomorrow's combatant. And vice versa.

Just saying.

Link Posted: 9/15/2010 5:12:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By larkinmusic:
This woman says there were 4.4 million killed. These two bullets killed her and her husband, but they got better.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00DR976etH2wQ/610x.jpg


holy shit that's 16,000 per day killed by flying brass!
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 5:15:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By larkinmusic:
This woman says there were 4.4 million killed. These two bullets killed her and her husband, but they got better.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00DR976etH2wQ/610x.jpg




Somebody should show her and weapons work.

What she meant to say was, not those two bullets, but two bullets just like them.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 5:19:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Avandir:
Originally Posted By larkinmusic:
This woman says there were 4.4 million killed. These two bullets killed her and her husband, but they got better.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00DR976etH2wQ/610x.jpg




Somebody should show her and weapons work.

What she meant to say was, not those two bullets, but two bullets just like them.

No, IIRC that was an AP report with the woman saying those bullets were the same ones that were used.

Then again, I have also seen doctored AP photos and pictures of "dead" civillians that are alive and walking in the next picture.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 5:20:11 PM EDT
The high number, "1.6 million" or whatever it is now, came from a George Soros funded organization that used "sampling" to determine their number. It's not an accurate number. It's a guesstimation.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 5:23:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RolandBozz:
The high number, "1.6 million" or whatever it is now, came from a George Soros funded organization that used "sampling" to determine their number. It's not an accurate number. It's a guesstimation.


Included in that number are all the deaths "caused by" the sanctions we put on them in 1991.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 5:25:13 PM EDT
I remember when the Somalis said we killed a pregnant lady with a .50, and when we actually sent a team out to investigate it turns out she was hit by a truck, driven by skinnys.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 5:26:37 PM EDT


Ok, I'm ready...
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 5:31:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BD1a:
First you'd have to find someone in that country that is innocent. Then you would have to prove that they are indeed civilians.

+1
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 5:34:11 PM EDT
hahahaa!
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 5:34:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AKengineer:
I remember when the Somalis said we killed a pregnant lady with a .50, and when we actually sent a team out to investigate it turns out she was hit by a truck, driven by skinnys.


That was common over there. Half of the "civilians" they claim we killed ended up being casualties of skinnys shooting at any and everything.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 5:41:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By larkinmusic:
This woman says there were 4.4 million killed. These two bullets killed her and her husband, but they got better.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/00DR976etH2wQ/610x.jpg


That made me LOL. Then a ROFL.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 5:41:45 PM EDT
There isn't really a way to get an accurate answer. I worked foreign claims in Tikrit for a year and we got claims all the time for civilian deaths when there were no units operating in the area the claimants described. A lot of stuff that happens from AIF, tribal violence, etc. gets turned into us as a claim against coalition forces. It's a lot of bullshit to weed through. I would guess maybe one out of fifteen to twenty claimants actually received money.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 5:42:29 PM EDT
When Bush is in office: 10 million innocents killed

When Obama is in office: 1000 innocents killed.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 5:59:22 PM EDT
There is no accurate number, as stated above the Iraqi people live and die for their own. Hope this helps your research.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 6:14:23 PM EDT
realistically... id say 5kish was from the 7 years of coalition warfare (true collateral damage) while the bg's probably killed almost 100 times that on purpose.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 6:15:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BD1a:
First you'd have to find someone in that country that is innocent. Then you would have to prove that they are indeed civilians.


Probably... It's hard to tell who's what over there from what I've heard from those who have been there...
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 6:17:07 PM EDT
No one ever counts the insurgents.

A dead insurgent looks just like a dead civilian.

Those with axes to grind always count them as "innocent civilians".
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 6:32:57 PM EDT
Americans shoot insurgent.

Insurgent's buddies collect gun and leave body.

Americans have shot civilian.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 6:37:40 PM EDT
I'm going with 13, and that's my final answer!
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 6:41:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Cypher15:
realistically... id say 5kish was from the 7 years of coalition warfare (true collateral damage) while the bg's probably killed almost 100 times that on purpose.


I would bet it's well south of that number.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 6:43:19 PM EDT
Not enough. They may be "civilians" but they sure as hell aren't innocent. Pray to the god of jihad, and you deserve whats coming.

Link Posted: 9/15/2010 6:43:37 PM EDT
Depends on whose number you use. One month in, Rosie O'donnell said 100,000. While she was citing incredibly accurate civilian casualty numbers she also sprang on us that steel wouldn't melt.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 8:31:11 PM EDT
Who cares.Mabey when the lead is a flyin get the fuck out of the way. Don't go peekin your nosey ass around the corner. If there were a war in my town I wouldn't runnin out to the market, nor would my kids just be strolling down the street. So back to who cares.....MEH
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 8:39:39 PM EDT
40 billion. There are only about 8 billion on the entire Earth, so this is quite devestating.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 8:42:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2010 8:45:46 PM EDT by Miles_Urbanus]
Troll post?

The insurgents have no qualms detonating IEDs or engaging in firefights with Coalition forces even if Iraqi civilians are in the way.Assigning 100% blame for civilian casualties is a very tricky matter in any war. Artillery and air strikes are highly regulated in built up areas.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 8:49:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Miles_Urbanus:
Troll post?

The insurgents have no qualms detonating IEDs or engaging in firefights with Coalition forces even if Iraqi civilians are in the way.Assigning 100% blame for civilian casualties is a very tricky matter in any war. Artillery and air strikes are highly regulated in built up areas.


For that matter there were plenty of insurgent attacks specifically targeted toward civilians.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 8:51:43 PM EDT
who gives a damn?
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 9:08:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BD1a:
First you'd have to find someone in that country that is innocent. Then you would have to prove that they are indeed civilians.


Are you serious? Are you or do you need

Get back under your rock man.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 9:09:08 PM EDT
Some, but not all.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 9:10:43 PM EDT
does it really matter? how many Germans or Japanese did we kill in WWII?
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 9:16:11 PM EDT
I cannot say a number, because like everyone else who knows exactly right?

However, looking at the amount of reporters killed in Iraq kind of opens your eyes.

Killed Reporters in Iraq - Sorted by perp.
Insurgent/other armed group action: 105 (Includes crossfire, suicide bombings, and murders.)
• U.S. fire: 16 (CPJ has not found evidence to conclude that U.S. troops targeted journalists in these cases. Cases are classified as crossfire.)
• Iraqi armed forces, during U.S. invasion: 3 (All are crossfire or acts of war.)
• Iraqi armed forces, post-U.S. invasion: 1 (Crossfire)
• Source unconfirmed: 14

Draw your own conclusion of who tries not to hurt Civies and who has far better ability to do so.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 9:17:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By staringback05:
who gives a damn?


Link Posted: 9/15/2010 9:28:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2010 9:29:48 PM EDT by bloodsport2885]
Insurgent in Chinese knock-off Nike's with an RPG suddenly becomes a civilian casualty after being shot when his buddies grab the launcher and scoot back to where they hide their shit.

I'm going to say 100.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 9:30:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ChadG:
Originally Posted By staringback05:
who gives a damn?




This.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 9:32:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BD1a:
First you'd have to find someone in that country that is innocent. Then you would have to prove that they are indeed civilians.

Then you'd have to prove that it was our munitions that did it, and not our UXO turned into IEDs by the jihadis.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 9:39:13 PM EDT
With nobody wearing a uniform, how the hell can you say for certain really?
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 9:42:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2010 9:43:55 PM EDT by GNRNR]
Is a civilian still a civilian if he is running around with a PKM ?
Is a civilian still a civilian if he is killed at a check point with cannon fuse and an artillary shell in his trunk?
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 9:43:23 PM EDT
I knew some innocent civilians who were deliberately targeted by the muj because they worked for us.

We had locals run off of the road and then machine-gunned to bits. Some were working as a family, father and son cut down together. One guy went to buy fuses in a shop, and had his throat cut in broad daylight.

I'm sure they go on the big list of war casualties, but they died supporting something they believed in, and were killed by primitive jihadis who shouldnt be allowed to draw another breath.



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