[ARCHIVED THREAD] - First Aid Kit for the Range (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 9/4/2010 8:31:14 AM EDT
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So the family is doing more shooting at the ranch these days which puts us ~30 minutes from the closest medical facility. I'm thinking it's time to pick up a first aid kit to lug around with us when we're shooting. Everyone is super safe and obeys the four rules––never had a problem.
Any advise on which kit to buy? I'm not looking to spend more than $60 or so but I want something that will treat GSWs. FerFal mentioned Quickclot on his blog this week. Anyone have any advise/experience? |
| I've got this that I throw in my range bag. ZI paid about $30 less than they want here, might have to do some internet ninja shit to find for that price. It's been about 3 years since I bought it. |
| Pressure is about all your going to do to a gsw thats worth a damn unless you are some type of trauma surgeon. A trauma kit for a non trained person to treat a GSW with should be a big ass roll of gauze, some scissors, maybe a pair of hemostats and some betadine. anything else would be a big time waster. A tourniquet would be handy as well if you dont want to get your belt all bloody. |
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i built my own, mostly from chinookmed.com.
it contains a quickclot gauze, a halo seal for sucking chest wounds, a pressure bandage (H style), shears, tourniquet, gloves, streamlight stylus pro and lots of surgi pads and misc gauze. it also has some neosporin, bandaids, a small amount of tape and some petroleum gauze for minor scrapes and cuts. fits nicely in the FR-1 pouch from maxpedition. |
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I would skip the quick clot, in a lot of circles it has been phased out in favor of less destructive methods such as a Hem-Con bandage. Quick clot can do more harm than good if used wrong and even if used right is still not the best product out there.
I would have at least one CAT tourniquet or a SOF-T if you can find one. Then i would make sure I had several Israeli pressure dressings. Couple of rolls of Kerlix gauze for shoving in wounds. Throw in a large abdominal dressing. Asherman chest seal. Some good tape. Space blanket for shock. Add a good pair of EMT shears and some gloves and that's a good start. It's all about controlling massive bleeding. Last but not least KNOWLEDGE.... at least find a Combat Lifesaver training presentation online or something so that you can learn how to control bleeding and dress wounds properly, using your knee on the inside of the groin for example will buy you time by controlling leg bleeding until you can get a good pressure dressing or tourniquet on. Little things like knowing how to make a occlusive dressing can be helpful too. If you can find some EMT training books even better. This is really all you need. If you can get an Epi-Pen add one, never know who might be allergic to a bite or sting, if you cant get one add some benadryl. After you have massive bleeding stopped you can deal with other injuries. Sky is the limit here as far as supplies go. If you wanted you could throw in gear for a tension pneumothorax needle decompression or even add enough gear to get an IV started but realistically the pro's would be there by then so your main concern is stopping massive bleeding. Don't forget to teach them how to use the blowout kit, if you get shot and lose consciousness due to blood loss, all the gear in the world won't help ya. |
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I can't hotlink easily on mobile, otherwise I'd point you to the ongoing discussion elsewhere on this site. Go to armory, tactical gear, "let's talk med pouches."
Some folks will sound authoritative and loudly decry or push their opinions with respect to tourniquets, needles, clotting activator, etc. Make sure you know their credentials and can back up their opinion with logic and/or studies. You may not know how to use the stuff, but someone else might. I have a bunch of Ventilated Operator Kits, too much $ in spendy North American Rescue stuff, and even a DIY kit in 2 mag pouches on an ATS war belt. Even found another needle, pressure dressing, and CAT tourniquet in my diaper bag. Get trained. Even just watching Tactical Response's GSW video is a good start. Disclosure: I'm a bit of a medical gear geek. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Quoted: Quoted: What about first aid for a snake bite? Definitive care (your closest hospital hopefully with an envenomation center). Cover the wound, remove all restrictive items and keep the person calm. 20 Unless she's cute, in which case you could use the old "suck the poison out" line.  Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Edited for spelling |
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What about first aid for a snake bite? Definitive care (your closest hospital hopefully with an envenomation center). Cover the wound, remove all restrictive items and keep the person calm. 20 Unless she's cute, in which case you could use the old "sick the poison out" line.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Only if it's on her boob or inner thigh. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What about first aid for a snake bite? Definitive care (your closest hospital hopefully with an envenomation center). Cover the wound, remove all restrictive items and keep the person calm. 20 Unless she's cute, in which case you could use the old "suck the poison out" line. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Edited for spelling. Only if it's on her boob or inner thigh. Not if you're creative enough to explain why poison in one location can be sucked out at another.  |
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Pressure is about all your going to do to a gsw thats worth a damn Gauze Gauze Gauze Gloves More Gauze Your local Walgreens will have the larger abdominal pads. Rolls can be had most anywhere. Unless you've had the training to do otherwise, keeping it simple and just focusing on minimizing blood loss until EMS arrives will probably be the most realistic route. |
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If you can get an Epi-Pen add one, never know who might be allergic to a bite or sting, if you cant get one add some benadryl. After you have massive bleeding stopped you can deal with other injuries. Sky is the limit here as far as supplies go. If you wanted you could throw in gear for a tension pneumothorax needle decompression or even add enough gear to get an IV started but realistically the pro's would be there by then so your main concern is stopping massive bleeding. Don't forget to teach them how to use the blowout kit, if you get shot and lose consciousness due to blood loss, all the gear in the world won't help ya. Doubt that you can get an Epi-Pen without some rangling, but what you can get OTC is Primatine Mist asthma inhalers. The main ingredient in these is Epinepherine, so it will work in a pinch. |
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gloves gauze abd pads quikclot tourniquet but as others have stated KNOWLEDGE is the most important Have seen a patient pass away due to GSW because small town EMS crew unwillingness to apply a simple and effective tourniquet ETA: will post pics of my kit later this afternoon if time which camera phone pic, it's more than just a simple BOK. But it's in the car 24/7  |
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gloves gauze abd pads quikclot tourniquet but as others have stated KNOWLEDGE is the most important Have seen a patient pass away due to GSW because small town EMS crew unwillingness to apply a simple and effective tourniquet ETA: will post pics of my kit later this afternoon if time which camera phone pic, it's more than just a simple BOK. But it's in the car 24/7 http://i367.photobucket.com/albums/oo118/EPOCHsPics/IMAG0029.jpg It wasn't their unwillingness it was going aginst protocol. You break protocol you could loose your license. I have had several arterial bleeds in my 10 years ALL of them have been stopped with direct pressure and elevation. I'm not saying tourniquets don't work I'm saying you can stop bleeding without them. |
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gloves gauze abd pads quikclot tourniquet but as others have stated KNOWLEDGE is the most important Have seen a patient pass away due to GSW because small town EMS crew unwillingness to apply a simple and effective tourniquet ETA: will post pics of my kit later this afternoon if time which camera phone pic, it's more than just a simple BOK. But it's in the car 24/7 http://i367.photobucket.com/albums/oo118/EPOCHsPics/IMAG0029.jpg It wasn't their unwillingness it was going aginst protocol. You break protocol you could loose your license. I have had several arterial bleeds in my 10 years ALL of them have been stopped with direct pressure and elevation. I'm not saying tourniquets don't work I'm saying you can stop bleeding without them. Your anectdotal experience is nice, but don't be so dogmatic as to give people wrong info. I personally had a guy show up in my OR with uncontrolled hemorrhage from a traumatic amputation. An ER nurse was holding pressure on the arterial bleed, but it was still ourinh out of the stump. I put a tourniquet on him, and this young Marine survived. On another occasion, we had a guy come in with his leg shredded by a grain auger. No place to hold direct pressure. The helo crew out on a tourniquet before lifting off, and he survived. When the tournets came down in the OR, it was impressive. You may not have had to use one, but stay in your lane with respect to recommending against them. TCCC, PHTLS, and ATLS disagree with you. I did the new ATLS curriculum, and can personally attest to your info being out of date. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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I might add into this, I have a first aid kit in my range bag for worse case situation. But the reality is don't forget band aids, gauze, and some tape. This is the stuff you will end up using most of the time. True. I firmly believe those should be separate from your blowout kit. The last thing you want is for someone to gut your trauma gear for a boo boo. Some guys even zip tie their trauma bag zippers, and I may do that for a couple of my trauma bags. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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gloves gauze abd pads quikclot tourniquet but as others have stated KNOWLEDGE is the most important Have seen a patient pass away due to GSW because small town EMS crew unwillingness to apply a simple and effective tourniquet ETA: will post pics of my kit later this afternoon if time which camera phone pic, it's more than just a simple BOK. But it's in the car 24/7 http://i367.photobucket.com/albums/oo118/EPOCHsPics/IMAG0029.jpg It wasn't their unwillingness it was going aginst protocol. You break protocol you could loose your license. I have had several arterial bleeds in my 10 years ALL of them have been stopped with direct pressure and elevation. I'm not saying tourniquets don't work I'm saying you can stop bleeding without them. Your anectdotal experience is nice, but don't be so dogmatic as to give people wrong info. I personally had a guy show up in my OR with uncontrolled hemorrhage from a traumatic amputation. An ER nurse was holding pressure on the arterial bleed, but it was still ourinh out of the stump. I put a tourniquet on him, and this young Marine survived. On another occasion, we had a guy come in with his leg shredded by a grain auger. No place to hold direct pressure. The helo crew out on a tourniquet before lifting off, and he survived. When the tournets came down in the OR, it was impressive. You may not have had to use one, but stay in your lane with respect to recommending against them. TCCC, PHTLS, and ATLS disagree with you. I did the new ATLS curriculum, and can personally attest to your info being out of date. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I'm not saying they don't work I'm saying you can stop most arterial bleeding without them. There is a time and a place for them, the examples you gave are ones that needed them. Most pepole on this site have no medical training besides what the read on the internet and most of what I read on here is if you have a GSW pour Quickclot in it or stuff it with combat gauze and that is NOT the correct way to Tx a GSW could it work ? Maybe. What I'm saying is there is another way to stop bleeding. |
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All that HSLD stuff is nice, but unless you know how to use it, it's going to do you and the wounded person about as much good as a honest politician in DC.
Take a Red Cross First Aid class. While your at it, might as well get your CPR / AED cert. I'm noticing AED's all over the place, and they are relativity easy to use, and proper training can help lower the chances of you locking up when time comes to "do something". One of my instructors in Hospital Corps School would scream that in your ears if you froze or hesitated when we were doing our practicals. I at the time I hated him, but I haven't froze or hesitated when it came time to "do something", so he must have been doing something right. He also used tell us that it was people like us that killed people like him out in the fleet. Once you know what to use and how to use it, then you can think about picking up some stuff for your kit. Contents: a couple of rolls of kerlex band aids alcohol wipes antibacterial ointment zip lock bag with un-sterile 4x4 gauze sterile 4x4's trauma sheers Tylenol 1 inch white surgical tape Silver Duct tape Tourniquet Black Sharpie Epi Pen (for me) |
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Quoted: Ok, very sorry I misunderstood. I thought you had said that you'd never needed to use a tourniquet in 10 years and were advocating against them. Please accept my apology. Quoted: Quoted: It wasn't their unwillingness it was going aginst protocol. You break protocol you could loose your license. I have had several arterial bleeds in my 10 years ALL of them have been stopped with direct pressure and elevation. I'm not saying tourniquets don't work I'm saying you can stop bleeding without them. Your anectdotal experience is nice, but don't be so dogmatic as to give people wrong info. I personally had a guy show up in my OR with uncontrolled hemorrhage from a traumatic amputation. An ER nurse was holding pressure on the arterial bleed, but it was still ourinh out of the stump. I put a tourniquet on him, and this young Marine survived. On another occasion, we had a guy come in with his leg shredded by a grain auger. No place to hold direct pressure. The helo crew out on a tourniquet before lifting off, and he survived. When the tournets came down in the OR, it was impressive. You may not have had to use one, but stay in your lane with respect to recommending against them. TCCC, PHTLS, and ATLS disagree with you. I did the new ATLS curriculum, and can personally attest to your info being out of date. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I'm not saying they don't work I'm saying you can stop most arterial bleeding without them. There is a time and a place for them, the examples you gave are ones that needed them. Most pepole on this site have no medical training besides what the read on the internet and most of what I read on here is if you have a GSW pour Quickclot in it or stuff it with combat gauze and that is NOT the correct way to Tx a GSW could it work ? Maybe. What I'm saying is there is another way to stop bleeding. I completely agree with you that too many people buy magic clotting goo & carry it as some kind of magic talisman. There's no substitute for the training. You and many of the other medically trained folks on this site could do an awful lot with a pocket knife, t-shirts, and a stick with respect to making bandages and tourniquets. Knowledge is king; the cool gadgets make our job easier, but I've demonstrated good arterial occlusion to boy scouts with the above-described t-shirt and a stick. FWIW, I only have Hemcon dressings in my big STOMP aid bag that sits at home for the zombie apocalypse. One of these days may add some into the car kit, but I don't feel helpless without them. |
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Ok, very sorry I misunderstood. I thought you had said that you'd never needed to use a tourniquet in 10 years and were advocating against them. Please accept my apology.
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It wasn't their unwillingness it was going aginst protocol. You break protocol you could loose your license. I have had several arterial bleeds in my 10 years ALL of them have been stopped with direct pressure and elevation. I'm not saying tourniquets don't work I'm saying you can stop bleeding without them. Your anectdotal experience is nice, but don't be so dogmatic as to give people wrong info. I personally had a guy show up in my OR with uncontrolled hemorrhage from a traumatic amputation. An ER nurse was holding pressure on the arterial bleed, but it was still ourinh out of the stump. I put a tourniquet on him, and this young Marine survived. On another occasion, we had a guy come in with his leg shredded by a grain auger. No place to hold direct pressure. The helo crew out on a tourniquet before lifting off, and he survived. When the tournets came down in the OR, it was impressive. You may not have had to use one, but stay in your lane with respect to recommending against them. TCCC, PHTLS, and ATLS disagree with you. I did the new ATLS curriculum, and can personally attest to your info being out of date. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I'm not saying they don't work I'm saying you can stop most arterial bleeding without them. There is a time and a place for them, the examples you gave are ones that needed them. Most pepole on this site have no medical training besides what the read on the internet and most of what I read on here is if you have a GSW pour Quickclot in it or stuff it with combat gauze and that is NOT the correct way to Tx a GSW could it work ? Maybe. What I'm saying is there is another way to stop bleeding. I completely agree with you that too many people buy magic clotting goo & carry it as some kind of magic talisman. There's no substitute for the training. You and many of the other medically trained folks on this site could do an awful lot with a pocket knife, t-shirts, and a stick with respect to making bandages and tourniquets. Knowledge is king; the cool gadgets make our job easier, but I've demonstrated good arterial occlusion to boy scouts with the above-described t-shirt and a stick. FWIW, I only have Hemcon dressings in my big STOMP aid bag that sits at home for the zombie apocalypse. One of these days may add some into the car kit, but I don't feel helpless without them. No problem, we are on the same team you just get to push waaaay better drugs than I do. I carry tournis and combat gauze in my BOK but it is my absolute last trick I pull out. |
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we dumped our hem con for quik clot gauze.
I have never seen hem con in action. but the old powder quick clot fucking WORKS. High femoral bleeder stopped IMMEDIATELY. I mean that second. I don't care if it is fucking recommended or not. Kerlex. Combat Tourniquet. Nitrile gloves Izzy Bandage More Kerlex. KNOWLEDGE. |
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OP-
With respect to bullet wounds, there are three types. 1. Ones that will kill you outright and you can do nothing about. 2. Ones that won't kill you anytime in the next 24 hours. 3. Ones that will kill you in the next two to fifteen minutes if not treated. This last category is what you want to be concerned about. If someone gets shot and it's not spurting blood or causing breathing difficulties, put them in the car and transport and put some gauze on it to keep the blood off the upholstery. If someone gets shot and the blood is pumping out, you need a tourniquet and quickly. Bleeding won't typically be a problem with a round to the abdomen, at least not that you can do anything about. The hemostatics (Combat Gauze is what the military uses or at least is supposed to use) are for wounds like the one seen in Blackhawk Down where you really can't use a tourniquet. The only other thing is some sort of "chest seal" but since at least Vietnam they've been teaching troops to use cigarette wrappers and such (luckily now they have actual manufactured products for that, and having one or two isn't a bad idea) Two tourniquets (CAT or SOF-T) because they get lost. Two or three non-stick gauze pads like "Telfa" Roll of Kerlix EMT shears Chest seal (Bolin or Hyfin are both good, stay away from the Asherman) *This assumes you can't get QuikClot Combat Gauze, which like all hemostatics very recently became a prescription only item. You may be able to find the granulated QuikClot, but be advised that while it does work it does so at somewhere north of 160 degrees. The point is not that you will cook your patient, but that you will be unable to hold direct pressure without piling gauze on top of it. All of this stays in a pocket of a small duffel bag that is sealed with a twistie tie or something that's easy to get through but that assures nothing got lost since the last time you inventoried it. Elsewhere in this bag, put bandaids, peroxide, antibiotic ointment, that sort of thing. That's your range bag. As was said many times with good reason- learn some medicine. I recommend the military edition of the PHTLS Manual. *ETA |
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OP- With respect to bullet wounds, there are three types. 1. Ones that will kill you outright and you can do nothing about. 2. Ones that won't kill you anytime in the next 24 hours. 3. Ones that will kill you in the next two to fifteen minutes if not treated. This last category is what you want to be concerned about. If someone gets shot and it's not spurting blood or causing breathing difficulties, put them in the car and transport and put some gauze on it to keep the blood off the upholstery. If someone gets shot and the blood is pumping out, you need a tourniquet and quickly. Bleeding won't typically be a problem with a round to the abdomen, at least not that you can do anything about. The hemostatics (Combat Gauze is what the military uses or at least is supposed to use) are for wounds like the one seen in Blackhawk Down where you really can't use a tourniquet. The only other thing is some sort of "chest seal" but since at least Vietnam they've been teaching troops to use cigarette wrappers and such (luckily now they have actual manufactured products for that, and having one or two isn't a bad idea) Two tourniquets (CAT or SOF-T) because they get lost. Two or three non-stick gauze pads like "Telfa" Roll of Kerlix EMT shears Chest seal (Bolin or Hyfin are both good, stay away from the Asherman) *This assumes you can't get QuikClot Combat Gauze, which like all hemostatics very recently became a prescription only item. You may be able to find the granulated QuikClot, but be advised that while it does work it does so at somewhere north of 160 degrees. The point is not that you will cook your patient, but that you will be unable to hold direct pressure without piling gauze on top of it. All of this stays in a pocket of a small duffel bag that is sealed with a twistie tie or something that's easy to get through but that assures nothing got lost since the last time you inventoried it. Elsewhere in this bag, put bandaids, peroxide, antibiotic ointment, that sort of thing. That's your range bag. As was said many times with good reason- learn some medicine. I recommend the military edition of the PHTLS Manual. *ETA You can use almost any thin plastic like material to make a chest seal, in the early days we were taught to use one of the halves of a petroleum gauze and tape it down on 3 sides but if you can get the ready made chest seals get them they are waaaay better than taping shit to somebodies chest. Also FYI all the hemostatic agents have a expiration date on them like all medical stuff, now what happens to them as they go past their exp date I have no idea but if I had to guess nothing. |
| Cell phone and a helicopter is your best bet. Heavy trauma dressing, petroleum jelly 4x4 gauze, and rolls of kerlex gauze would be useful until the helicopter lands if you have the knowledge to use it. And since you are asking here, you will need to school yourself in bleeding control. |
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It's not the dumbest idea on earth to have stuff in your first aid kit that other people might know how to use on you, but the rule of thumb is usually this:
Don't pack anything you don't know how and when to use. I have a first aid kit in my truck, but the only range-specific first aid stuff is an asherman chest seal and a couple israeli bandages in the door pocket. And I'm dubious on the utility of even of the asherman in the short time it would be before hospital care. |
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You can use almost any thin plastic like material to make a chest seal, in the early days we were taught to use one of the halves of a petroleum gauze and tape it down on 3 sides but if you can get the ready made chest seals get them they are waaaay better than taping shit to somebodies chest. Also FYI all the hemostatic agents have a expiration date on them like all medical stuff, now what happens to them as they go past their exp date I have no idea but if I had to guess nothing. This is what I was originally taught in the military but in this recent class I took the instructor said they don't do that anymore. Apparently they found it to be ineffective and just recommend sealing it completely. I believe Hemcon is much more expensive and has a much shorter shelf life than QuickClot and Celox. That's stupid if the gauze and hemostats are going Rx only. The latter certainly has uses outside of medicine. Hell, I think Harbor Freight sells 'em. |
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Other than getting some basic first aid training, I'd suggest a nice pocket guide to first aid to keep in the kit. Also, think about what the most common injuries might be. You are more likely to see hammer bite, minor burns from hot brass, and maybe debris or gasses into the eyes rather than sucking chest wounds. Get a small eyewash kit and a small bottle of sterile saline for wound flushing. Tweezers and magnifier for removing splinters or small metal shavings from fingers or such. Basic dressing materials. Add some of the things others have mentioned if you know how to use them and see a need.
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This is what I was originally taught in the military but in this recent class I took the instructor said they don't do that anymore. Apparently they found it to be ineffective and just recommend sealing it completely. I believe Hemcon is much more expensive and has a much shorter shelf life than QuickClot and Celox. That's stupid if the gauze and hemostats are going Rx only. The latter certainly has uses outside of medicine. Hell, I think Harbor Freight sells 'em. Correct, that is no longer recommended. Hem Con is a little piece of foam that I used once in a class. Only once. It works great for road rash, but not so well on 3-dimensional wounds. And I don't mean to imply by my "hurt feelings" comment that those hurt feelings were in anyway unjustified. It really is first class horseshit. The active ingredient in Combat Gauze is kaolin, as in Kaopectate, the OVER THE COUNTER medication. I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to assume that the restriction was just the FDA looking to expand its little fiefdom. |