Posted: 3/23/2010 4:23:31 PM EDT
So on another board I came across an outfit having a sale on what appeared to be a very interesting flashlight. It's made by Nitecore and it is dubbed the SR3:
It's next to a Surefire E2E for comparison. I'm the kind of guy who likes his lights simple. I like them simple because on more than one occasion I've needed to use them in a hurry and I didn't have the time or inclination to fool with a bunch of different features. I want to be able to draw the light, hit the button, and get a known quantity of light instantly. I looked at the SR3 because the adjustment ring for the LED based light looked like one of the simpler control arrangements I've seen. Turn the ring to the setting you want and the ring is positive enough that it should stay more or less in place, giving me that all-important instant known light source I want. Since it looked to be a quality light, I ordered it. The light arrived and I eagerly opened the really nice box and eagerly started playing with my new toy. Unfortunately my joy was short lived. I quickly found that the main activation button is set up wrong. The travel between the momentary setting and the click on setting is too short, which means that if you hit the button you're likely to click it on rather than get a momentary burst of light. On the pictured Surefire E2E the button travel is longer, requiring a very deliberate and long button push to engage the click on setting. The little pushback ring they have on the SR3 is WAY too close to the button, which keeps you from getting a decent purchase to pull it back into the hand like you are supposed to with the Rogers technique. The E2E lacks a ring entirely, but the long knurled surface of the light allows for sufficient purchase to use it with the rogers technique. The button on the SR3 is also stiff, making it difficult to activate using the Rogers technique, and unlike Surefires you can't adjust the tailcap to vary the sensitivity of the activation. If you loosen the tailcap at all, the light doesn't work anymore. The combination of those factors makes it basically impossible to use in the Rogers technique...which happens to be the best handheld light technique, and the one that I depend on most. The construction and quality of the SR3 actually appears to be very, very good: 
The problem is that the controls suck. The turn ring that varies the output of the LED element is relatively positive and not likely to switch accidentally assuming a reasonable carry method, but the function of the adjustment ring makes no sense. Activating the strobe mode requires a priest, apparently, as I cannot get it to consistently activate the same way more than a couple of times. Sometimes it requires turning the adjustment ring back and forth quickly between the brightest and lowest position, and other times it engages if a ring hits the right notch. You would also think that the adjustment ring is sequential...proceeding from lowest to highest settings when turned clockwise. It doesn't. At the left-most position it goes from bright to brighter to brightest to strobe (sometimes) and then to the lowest setting and on up to a medium setting at the last point on the ring. Now this is a sample of 1 and it may have some sort of defect or problem that's producing this weird behavior, but even if the LED adjustment was working sensibly the other complaints remain. Also, no surprise, their lumen ratings are the typical FUBAR non-Surefire way of measuring things. Their "220 lumens" is as bright as a Surefire G2 with a factory LED upgrade, although it is brighter than the E2E with an incandescent bulb on the right setting. The SR3 does this with one battery as opposed to two, which is a bonus in it's favor, but again hindered by all the other stuff mentioned. This is an example of something I've said many times: Features can never trump design. The SR3 is a well-made light, but the design problems that become apparent when you try to use it make it useless for my purposes. Surefire's design is better thought out and geared more toward my preferences in a light. I fully understand that others may have different requirements and needs. Personally I want a light I can use in conjunction with a handgun. Yes, I'll use it for lots of other things, but that's the critical requirement for me in a daily carry light. So far I have yet to find a light maker whose products are as easy to use in that role as a Surefire handheld, and that's why I keep shelling out the money for Surefire's better products. (It should be noted that some of the things Surefire makes are absurd) I've spent a bunch of money on other lights looking for something that's a better mousetrap and while I've found lights that are slightly brighter or that have more features (most of which I don't have any use for) at lower prices, when it comes time to use them for serious low light training invariably I find that they just aren't as good at everything I need them to do as Surefires. A lot of people are quick to complain about Surefire kool-aid, but they miss the point. It's been my experience that Surefire's better products deliver a blend of reliability, durability, and ease of use nobody else in the market comes close to touching right now. I don't say that in a vaccum, I say it after having tried other options on the market...options like this SR3 or the TLR-1/TLR-2, or the Gladius (remember those?), etc...and found them wanting in some way. Like an unstoppable idiot I will probably see some neat looking light in the future and I'll order it on the spur of the moment hoping beyond hope that it will finally best my Surefires, and like every other time I'll probably end up giving it the yuk face and sending it back. If other light companies really want to take over the market, they need to bring in guys like me (preferably guys who are smarter and more experienced than me, but I can do it in a pinch) and talk to us about what we want/need in a light, including making sure all the controls work like they should. |
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Haven't seen one of those yet. M R 'spensive! |
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One of the biggest points for me, is the warranty.
I have broken the tailcap and the clip on my E1L outdoorsman. Both times i called surefire customer service and offered to purchase a replacement. Both times the CS rep declined and shipped me a replacement, free. |
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Haven't seen one of those yet. M R 'spensive! What did you think of the Fenix lights? |
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Have you tried the Fenix TK11 or TA30? I tried one after my last surefire died in the laundry. I really like the TA30 enough that I am going to get a TK11 now... I think they are worth trying, I haven't experienced any of the button or adjustment ring issues with my Fenix TA30 that you complained about with the Nitecore... |
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Quoted: Quoted: Haven't seen one of those yet. M R 'spensive! What did you think of the Fenix lights? I'd like to hear your opinion as well. |
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I own quite a few Surefires and a couple Fenix lights, and one Thrunite. They all do different things. But I will say the TK11 has replaced my Centurion C3. With 2 cells it's brighter, it runs longer, in a smaller package, and takes an 18650 rechargeable cell saving me lots of money in the long run. It has 2 modes. 60 lumens for 12 hours and 220 lumens for 2.5 hours. These are changed by rotating the bezel. The tailcap is on/off, nothing else, just the way I like it. |
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Why I prefer surefire: Dropped my light outside in the snow. The temps were around 0-10 degrees. I couldn't find the light because it snowed that night. After a few days my friend's mom found it in her driveway frozen to the ground, she kicked it free and everything works fine. I will never buy a cheap flashlight again.
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Quoted: Quoted: This and the R & D that goes into the products they sell. There is a reason why they have the LEO and MIL market dominated.One of the biggest points for me, is the warranty. Yeah, but they've had it locked up so long that they've become complacent. They are too content to rest on their laurels. Thats never good for any company... |
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Have you tried the Fenix TK11 or TA30? I haven't tried some of the newer Fenix options. I tried some of the first Fenix lights I ever saw in a class. They were brought by another student and they died on us pretty quick. Sooner or later I'll see them on sale somewhere and probably buy. The Fenix lights seem to have a fairly good rep, but lots of lights I've tried that didn't make the cut had good reps. |
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This and the R & D that goes into the products they sell. There is a reason why they have the LEO and MIL market dominated.
One of the biggest points for me, is the warranty. Yeah, but they've had it locked up so long that they've become complacent. They are too content to rest on their laurels. Thats never good for any company... 
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For HD, weapon lights, and other serious uses, I use exclusively Surefire and Pentagon when they were still around. For other flashlights that I use to toss into a drawer, walk the dog, put by the computer, keep bedside, I buy cheapie ones from Target and Wal-Mart. They work well enough. That way you can have many bright fairly dependable lights placed all around the house. I like LifeGear as it's sufficiently bright, cheap as dirt, and not a single one has broke on me yet. I think something like Fenix is in the middle ground and while not Surefire, they are still fairly great lights for the price. I keep two in my car.
I remember as a kid, the days of slapping around those cheap plastic flashlights with the white slider button on top when the power goes out only to find the batteries got sucked or the contacts are shitty. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This and the R & D that goes into the products they sell. There is a reason why they have the LEO and MIL market dominated.One of the biggest points for me, is the warranty. Yeah, but they've had it locked up so long that they've become complacent. They are too content to rest on their laurels. Thats never good for any company... http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/527/mg8354.jpg What is that and how many kidneys must I sell to get one? |
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This and the R & D that goes into the products they sell. There is a reason why they have the LEO and MIL market dominated.
One of the biggest points for me, is the warranty. Yeah, but they've had it locked up so long that they've become complacent. They are too content to rest on their laurels. Thats never good for any company... http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/527/mg8354.jpg Is that robust enough to pistol whip someone with? 
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This and the R & D that goes into the products they sell. There is a reason why they have the LEO and MIL market dominated.One of the biggest points for me, is the warranty. Yeah, but they've had it locked up so long that they've become complacent. They are too content to rest on their laurels. Thats never good for any company... http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/527/mg8354.jpg What is that and how many kidneys must I sell to get one? Awesome, and 3. Dunno how you'll sell the wife on this idea.  Quoted: Surefire E series. Pure win. Yes they do. I wish SF made a 9 ( or 12  ) P LED with 200-250 lumens. Something to walk the dog with, in Harlem. |
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Fenix tailcap lifespan was about 3 weeks for me when it stopped working.
To their credit they shipped me a new one, that hasn't died yet, but I really cut back using it after it died. My surefire has been 100% except when I dropped it fairly hard one time and the incandescent bulb died. This was after about 7-8 years of reliable service however. Fenix lights are fun to play with, but Im grabbing the Surefire if I really need a light in the night. |
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I won't own another incandescent light. Surefire won't make LED's that have the features I want. I hope someday they will get their heads far enough out of their asses that they will start to give options and features that suit people who don't need a tactical light all damn day. My nitecore D10 absolutely saved the day during a resent kaizan event I participated in for a customer. Ran it quite a bit for 4 days on one eneloop. Quit at the end of the 4th day. For a purely tactical light, the Fenix TK11 is my first choice. Nothing wrong with Surefire's tac lights. Just don't have the low and that makes them useless for me. |
| It seems (to me) that most of the Chicom lights are made by flash-in the pan companies with little staying power in the market. They either fold or change their name, which leaves the end user with a useless piece of shit if the light ever needs warranty work. Same goes for Arc/HDS/Novatac. Nice lights, but Jesus, figure out a business plan that keeps you around for more than 5 years. |
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John_Wayne777...
A little off topic but your post got me thinking. I learned / trained in the Weaver / Chapman stance and the Harries technique. It seems like current training favors isosceles and Rogers? I can see where the Rogers technique affords better control of the gun. In your opinion do you think it is worthwhile to retrain or does it come down to personal preference? Thanks! |
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surefire has a great rep because they were the first company to make a "serious" flashlight. before they came along everyone used maglights
but.....as stated before they are falling behind in both features and performance, especially in the LED world. I have used several other manufacturer (olight, 4 sevens, nitecore) with success for everything from EDC to weaponlights that I run in classes and on weekly match nights where they are subjected to abuse (Intentionally, because if they are going to fail, I want it to be during a match). I can only speak to those 3 brands, but all have served me well...At a third of the price of surefire. Look at it this way....how much technology goes into a flashlight? it is not a machine that has a lot of moving parts that must work in synchronozation under extreme stresses like a firearm. They consist of a power source, an emitter, and a switch.....its not difficult to make those things bombproof, or at least as bombproof as surefire. Do they have a great warranty––-yep. A buddy of mine broke his X300 a few weeks ago when his AR (MS2) sling failed...Surefire is replacing the damaged parts free of charge.....the point is that surefires can fail as well. dont be afraid to try other brands, especially if they have the features and performance that you want. I certainly suggest (like anything that may be used to save your life) you put them thru the wringer first to make sure the can handle the abuse, but I would not assume that because it does not have the surefire name on it that it is unsuitable. |
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J_W777: Shoot them an email and tell them you'd like to offer to be a tester. Send them your links to your flashlight/low light shooting techniques and tell them you have ideas you could offer, that would make the lights better...
Worst they can say is "no" and best they can say is "OK", take a list of your suggestions, and then send you some prototype lights to check out... On the subject, I prefer Surefire too, but I welcome competition. Too bad Pentagonlight was so screwy, I bought a pile of their 123 batts before they went bellyup for like 75 cents each. |
Dude,  ~ JW777
I still haven't figured out a real need for something more than a basic plastic Surefire G2 for a carbine mounted or handheld white light. The only issues I've had with these are that the clicky-caps are sometimes prone to shitting the bed - they seem to do the job otherwise. As for aluminum body options, I feel the same way about the 6P's. Am I missing something here? -B |
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John_Wayne777... A little off topic but your post got me thinking. I learned / trained in the Weaver / Chapman stance and the Harries technique. It seems like current training favors isosceles and Rogers? As far as stances go, modern iso is the way to go. I was training with Ken Hackathorn a few months ago and he said that some big agency (FBI, IIRC) did a comprehensive study of shootouts captured on video and found that nobody....I repeat, nobody...used the Weaver stance in a gunfight, not even firearms instructors for police departments that were hardcore, diehard Weaver guys. It's really not as efficient as modern iso at controlling the firearm...which is why you don't see any of the top competition shooters using the stance. As far as the Rogers light technique, that's more a matter of personal preference. The Harries is great, but ultimately very fatiguing because of the isometric tension it requires. The Rogers technique is my preferred technique because it allows me to get both hands on the handgun, which is a plus when it comes to hitting a target under stress. I've invested a lot of time into getting the technique right as it can be hard to master, but once mastered it's awesome, in my opinion. Different people with different physiology might find that it sucks donkey water for them. The snag here is that one needs to learn multiple techniques as no one technique will be sufficient for every occasion. I use 4, the FBI technique, the neck index, the Harries, and the Rogers. My two primary techniques are the Harries and the Rogers. As a for instance, if I'm clearing a corner that opens to my right, the Rogers technique will be useless as the light is positioned to the left of my muzzle. I can use it, but I'd have to lean out more and expose more of myself to incoming fire. In such a situation it's preferable to switch to my "outside" technique, the Harries, to be able to expose as little of me as possible. In your opinion do you think it is worthwhile to retrain or does it come down to personal preference? There is much to be gained by really learning modern iso and playing with subtle variations to yield the ideal level of control for you. To be honest, Jack Weaver's technique was only developed because Weaver himself had an injury that forced him to have that stance. Many people don't know this because for whatever reason Cooper saw it and thought it was the bees knees and that became how "it" was supposed to be done for everybody everywhere no matter what. Those of us not burdened by an injury like Mr. Weaver's would be better off using iso. As for light techniques, learn several. If you have to do something like clear a building you'll need multiple techniques. Quoted:
Look at it this way....how much technology goes into a flashlight? it is not a machine that has a lot of moving parts that must work in synchronozation under extreme stresses like a firearm. They consist of a power source, an emitter, and a switch.....its not difficult to make those things bombproof, or at least as bombproof as surefire. That's not really my point. It's not just about the function of the light, but about how the controls work on their own. The tailcap on this SR3 doesn't seem to be any less robust than any of my Surefire stuff, but it's FAR more difficult to actually use in conjunction with a handgun than my Surefire. On that alone it makes the Surefire a better buy even at the higher price. The "falling behind on features" thing also doesn't matter to me. Personally speaking, I don't want a flashlight that has 19 different modes on it, programmable switches, etc. I just want a light that I can pull out of a pocket or a holster in a real hurry and use to get an instant, known quantity of light. I want the ability to use it with my primary handgun + light technique. I want that because in the past the ability to whip out a light post-haste and light up a dude has kept me from having to resort to gunfire to stop his hostile actions. Even if the situation had escalated to the point of requiring gunfire, the light would have worked splendidly with my preferred handheld light techniques. Those are the features I want...and that's one of the reasons I keep buying Surefire's stuff. The other companies seem to be geared to cramming as many features as possible into a light. Their design time seems to be dedicated to producing a light that will do your taxes and julienne fries instead of producing a light that is really laid out well and easy to use when your brain is in "OH ****!!!!" mode. Do they have a great warranty––-yep. A buddy of mine broke his X300 a few weeks ago when his AR (MS2) sling failed...Surefire is replacing the damaged parts free of charge.....the point is that surefires can fail as well. I never contended that they couldn't fail. Surefires can break just like anything else, just like Glock 9mm's can break. That being said, if I had to buy a light and depend on it working and working right out of the box I'd stick to a Surefire product because in my experience (and in the experience of lots of people smarter than me) they are more likely to deliver. Quoted:
J_W777: Shoot them an email and tell them you'd like to offer to be a tester. Send them your links to your flashlight/low light shooting techniques and tell them you have ideas you could offer, that would make the lights better... Worst they can say is "no" and best they can say is "OK", take a list of your suggestions, and then send you some prototype lights to check out... I don't know who "them" is. If I did I'd give it a shot. An instructor friend of mine has been telling me to start a firearms and gear related blog which would doubtless help out with that sort of thing. He contends that people don't "take" me "seriously" because I have quite possibly the goofiest screen name in the history of the internet. I think he has a point. 
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Am I missing something here? After carrying around an E2E for a while, I'm going to go out on a limb and say "Yes". I agree with you on the carbine light thing. There's really no point in considering anything other than an X300 or a G2. Use the X300 if you can afford it, the G2 if you want to spend under 100 bucks. For a daily carry light something smaller like the E2E comes in handy. The ability to just clip it into the pocket and go is pretty cool. It's like the J frame of flashlights. |
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On the pictured Surefire E2E the button travel is longer, requiring a very deliberate and long button push to engage the click on setting. If you can find an older Surefire E2e the tailcap button is momentary-only. I have owned three Surefire E2s over the years (two E2es, one E2). I was very disappointed when they went to the click-on button for the tailcap. If I ever lose my "original" E2e I will be very sad indeed. |
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On the pictured Surefire E2E the button travel is longer, requiring a very deliberate and long button push to engage the click on setting. If you can find an older Surefire E2e the tailcap button is momentary-only. I have owned three Surefire E2s over the years (two E2es, one E2). I was very disappointed when they went to the click-on button for the tailcap. If I ever lose my "original" E2e I will be very sad indeed. I was kinda ticked about it too...well, I could only be so ticked seeing as how I got the E2E for free ...but in using it I've found that the click-on function is done well enough that I don't engage it by accident.
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JW-I hope I did not come off as combative...not my intention at all. Like you, I believe that user interface is a vital element for flashlight criteria. I recently was on a 6 month search to add a AA light to my AR.....(why, because I wanted to ba able to use either style of battery I had acces to at the time.....that being said..).I thought I had found the perfect candidate.....until I played with one at a gunshow. It went to strobe every other time you momentarily pressed the tailcap....Totally unacceptable. I did find a flashlight to fit the bill...I am in the process of torture testing it and will let you know the outcome if you have the interest. Also, like you I am less concerned with features, but more with output, run time and beam quality––-and there are many other companies taking the lead in these areas BTW...check out 4sevens for some really small EDC lights that you can use for the rogers technique....you might be pleased with the outcome (for a modest amount of $$ as well) |
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I like the SF lights with the simple clicky switch. That switch has been the most reliable for me. By far my favorite overall flashlight was my L4 (I think that was the model) LED, simple switch, comfy in the hand. Upgrade that to a better output LED with longer battery life and that would be my ideal flashlight.
I don't like different modes or multiple switch positions. I've seen those fail too often and they make things more complicated. |