[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Room Clearing Class today. AAR (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 3/22/2010 4:31:29 PM EDT
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It's been many years since I have been to a room clearing class. Today was the day.
Rolled out of Bama house at 0530, rained all the way on my hour plus drive and all day, temps in the mid 40's. Bought a Burger King Ciabatta breakfast sandwich on the way, very tasty. Arrived at the class, sign the papers and have about two hours of classroom presentation. All the instructors are very well versed in the subject of firearms tactics, served on various SWAT teams, protective details and private contractors in the sandbox. Head over to the shoot area, old Army buildings turned over to the civilian authorities. The building had about 30 small offices and a half dozen more rooms of various sizes. Safety shakedown, no weapons, magazines, knives or other weapons in the training area. Check yourself, buddy check and instructor check. We were issued Glock 17, blue framed simmunition guns. On the dry runs we were taught to to tuck the pistol in over our hip area instead of the traditional low ready gun I had learned in the past when approaching the door way. This is done so if the bad guy pops out on you your firearm is basically pointed at their torso, bang bang. Also to prevent a subject from grabbing your firearm. As you enter the room you extend the firearm out to clear the room. Remember to cant the pistol to the side so if you fire the slide clears your clothing. Worked on our dry runs with two and three man teams for about an hour or more then off to lunch. Came back another safety shakedown. More dry runs before we are issued simmunitions rounds. Our next drill was in a large room, very dark, the instructor puts a black hood over your head, walks and spins you around the room. He has instructed the five other participants on their roles, some will be shooters, others will be screamers/runners, and some will just stand there. Then the hood is pulled off the and the games begin. My turn, hood comes off, I have five people in the room, some are moving and shouting, one pulls a gun and starts shooting, I get off two rounds center mass and my gun jams, I slap the mag and rack the slide, double feed and it's jammed up, I hesitate for a moment before moving for concealment as a second gunman starts shooting at me. He missed me. I stripped the mag, cleared the jam and inserted a new mag, fired two rounds, they hit, then ordered him into an arrest position. Let me tell you the time I spent under the hood, by heart rate and breathing increased to something I have not experienced in a long time. Even though I knew it was an exercise and what was basically going to happen I was very anxious. More than dealing with certain situations in real life. After all the students went through the same various drills we moved on to room clearing with role players. During one of the drills I was lead in the stack, made entry into the room, caught one round in the pelvis area returned three rounds to the role players chest area as I took two more rounds to the groin. I tried to figure out the lesson learned but it's hard to beat someone ready to smoke you. I picked up as a role player in the active shooter drill. I let the three man team clear a couple of rooms, fired a couple of rounds then began a zig zag pattern of going in and out of the offices firing a few rounds (at my pretend hostage/victims) and moving to the next office and firing more rounds. My gun ran dry as I was moving from one office to the next, dropped the mag on the run reloaded, started to shoot again. The room clearing team breaks off and comes after me, my gun jams again, worked the slide, stripped the mag, clear the jam, reinsert mag and begin shooting hostages again, team makes entry and shoots me. My turn, clearing rooms for the active shooter, the shooter pops out and shoots a couple rounds at me, I return fire, my gun runs dry (only allowed four rounds in the mag as a room clearer), mag change as I move towards the shooter, the shooter retreats to another room, as I approach he pops back out and fires at me, I bust off two rounds, he retreats, I move forward into the next room, he moved into another room, as I head for the doorway I can hear him working his slide, make entry and two rounds center mass. Shoot and move, clear jams and reload on the move, clearing sim jams are a bitch. Practice your room clearing, my neglect in this area showed during the exercises. Overall a great day and some much needed training. |
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Fatal funnel's a nasty bitch. Statistically the 2 man usually gets waxed...but the 1 man is a high pucker factor position to say the least.  And you're right..entering a room when someone's ready and waiting is bad, bad juju. Nothing good will happen unless all the bad guy's guns jam.  Happen to be at Ft McClellan was it? |
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thanks for the AAR
I am having trouble picturing this: Quoted:
.................... On the dry runs we were taught to to tuck the pistol in over our hip area instead of the traditional low ready gun I had learned in the past when approaching the door way. This is done so if the bad guy pops out on you your firearm is basically pointed at their torso, bang bang. Also to prevent a subject from grabbing your firearm. As you enter the room you extend the firearm out to clear the room. Remember to cant the pistol to the side so if you fire the slide clears your clothing. Worked on our dry runs with two and three man teams for about an hour or more then off to lunch. ................................. |
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Fatal funnel's a nasty bitch. Statistically the 2 man usually gets waxed...but the 1 man is a high pucker factor position to say the least. And you're right..entering a room when someone's ready and waiting is bad, bad juju. Nothing good will happen unless all the bad guy's guns jam.
Happen to be at Ft McClellan was it? I go in the door, bang. Yes. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Fatal funnel's a nasty bitch. Statistically the 2 man usually gets waxed...but the 1 man is a high pucker factor position to say the least. And you're right..entering a room when someone's ready and waiting is bad, bad juju. Nothing good will happen unless all the bad guy's guns jam. Happen to be at Ft McClellan was it? I go in the door, bang. Yes. Cool. I can neither confirm nor deny that I might have used to trounce around some of the training areas when I was growing up around there 20 some odd years ago. Good to see it's being used for more than just college student housing |
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thanks for the AAR I am having trouble picturing this: Quoted:
.................... On the dry runs we were taught to to tuck the pistol in over our hip area instead of the traditional low ready gun I had learned in the past when approaching the door way. This is done so if the bad guy pops out on you your firearm is basically pointed at their torso, bang bang. Also to prevent a subject from grabbing your firearm. As you enter the room you extend the firearm out to clear the room. Remember to cant the pistol to the side so if you fire the slide clears your clothing. Worked on our dry runs with two and three man teams for about an hour or more then off to lunch. ................................. Draw your firearm from the holster, hold firearm right above the holster (over your hip) pointed at basiclly 90 degrees (straight forward), cant at roughly 45 degrees (butt end towards your hip, slide rotated out away from your body). |
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Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter: During one of the drills I was lead in the stack, made entry into the room, caught one round in the pelvis area returned three rounds to the role players chest area as I took two more rounds to the groin. I tried to figure out the lesson learned but it's hard to beat someone ready to smoke you. Sounds like you did the best you could. If anyone's got the solution, I'm all ears. Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter: Our next drill was in a large room, very dark, the instructor puts a black hood over your head, walks and spins you around the room. He has instructed the five other participants on their roles, some will be shooters, others will be screamers/runners, and some will just stand there. Then the hood is pulled off the and the games begin. Interesting variant on this is have a "good civilian shooter." A lot of people just shoot anyone with a gun in these kinds of drills. I don't know what you're up against in terms of protocols or mindset, but it's good to train for instances in which the armed guy might not be the bad guy. What little I've seen in terms of role playing reactions (one department, not making any sort of sweeping generalization) made me rather nervous about carrying in any proximity to a local PD.  Originally Posted By DontShootMyDog: Originally Posted By sailsail: Quoted: Best way to clear a room is to toss in a glock. fixed Boy, that never gets old. No, no it doesn't. |
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Fatal funnel's a nasty bitch. Statistically the 2 man usually gets waxed...but the 1 man is a high pucker factor position to say the least. And you're right..entering a room when someone's ready and waiting is bad, bad juju. Nothing good will happen unless all the bad guy's guns jam.
Happen to be at Ft McClellan was it? I go in the door, bang. Yes. Cool. I can neither confirm nor deny that I might have used to trounce around some of the training areas when I was growing up around there 20 some odd years ago. Good to see it's being used for more than just college student housing
I did a lot of training out there in the early-mid 90's. Miss the trips to the NCO club for pitchers of Killians. |
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During one of the drills I was lead in the stack, made entry into the room, caught one round in the pelvis area returned three rounds to the role players chest area as I took two more rounds to the groin. I tried to figure out the lesson learned but it's hard to beat someone ready to smoke you. Sounds like you did the best you could. If anyone's got the solution, I'm all ears. Quoted:
Our next drill was in a large room, very dark, the instructor puts a black hood over your head, walks and spins you around the room. He has instructed the five other participants on their roles, some will be shooters, others will be screamers/runners, and some will just stand there. Then the hood is pulled off the and the games begin. Interesting variant on this is have a "good civilian shooter." A lot of people just shoot anyone with a gun in these kinds of drills. I don't know what you're up against in terms of protocols or mindset, but it's good to train for instances in which the armed guy might not be the bad guy. What little I've seen in terms of role playing reactions (one department, not making any sort of sweeping generalization) made me rather nervous about carrying in any proximity to a local PD.
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Best way to clear a room is to toss in a glock. fixed Boy, that never gets old. No, no it doesn't.
It would be, I really missed my weapon light, it happened so fast I didn't have time to pull my flashlight out. |
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thanks for the AAR I am having trouble picturing this: Quoted:
.................... On the dry runs we were taught to to tuck the pistol in over our hip area instead of the traditional low ready gun I had learned in the past when approaching the door way. This is done so if the bad guy pops out on you your firearm is basically pointed at their torso, bang bang. Also to prevent a subject from grabbing your firearm. As you enter the room you extend the firearm out to clear the room. Remember to cant the pistol to the side so if you fire the slide clears your clothing. Worked on our dry runs with two and three man teams for about an hour or more then off to lunch. ................................. Draw your firearm from the holster, hold firearm right above the holster (over your hip) pointed at basiclly 90 degrees (straight forward), cant at roughly 45 degrees (butt end towards your hip, slide rotated out away from your body). thanks. I was thinking "maybe he means in the shoulder pocket with the heel of the hand against the pectoral" |
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During one of the drills I was lead in the stack, made entry into the room, caught one round in the pelvis area returned three rounds to the role players chest area as I took two more rounds to the groin. I tried to figure out the lesson learned but it's hard to beat someone ready to smoke you. How do they teach folks to clear the door frame? |
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We do alot of similar training. It always gets me that you know it's training but it's SO realistic that your heart rate and breathing sky rocket. It's a great way to practice your combat breathing. I hate room entry. Every room gets a flash bang  The thing is I don't recall the same reaction in real life. |
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So for those of us who don't play with simmunitions, do they normally jam that much? Or did they give you the special gun? The last time I shot sims was in a revolver. I saw LOT'S of issues with it today. The jams required stripping the mags and several cycles of the slides. I like the noise and marking factor but I think airsoft for the money and reliability might be better. Make an airsoft gun that goes bang with realistic mags and actions. |
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During one of the drills I was lead in the stack, made entry into the room, caught one round in the pelvis area returned three rounds to the role players chest area as I took two more rounds to the groin. I tried to figure out the lesson learned but it's hard to beat someone ready to smoke you. How do they teach folks to clear the door frame? Basically move from one room directly into the next, one goes left the other right. I got shot as soon as I entered the doorway. We didn't cut the pie before entering. |
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thanks for the AAR I am having trouble picturing this: Quoted:
.................... On the dry runs we were taught to to tuck the pistol in over our hip area instead of the traditional low ready gun I had learned in the past when approaching the door way. This is done so if the bad guy pops out on you your firearm is basically pointed at their torso, bang bang. Also to prevent a subject from grabbing your firearm. As you enter the room you extend the firearm out to clear the room. Remember to cant the pistol to the side so if you fire the slide clears your clothing. Worked on our dry runs with two and three man teams for about an hour or more then off to lunch. ................................. Draw your firearm from the holster, hold firearm right above the holster (over your hip) pointed at basiclly 90 degrees (straight forward), cant at roughly 45 degrees (butt end towards your hip, slide rotated out away from your body). the movie with jamie foxx and tom cruise... he draws and shoots at one point in a perfect example of this. |
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During one of the drills I was lead in the stack, made entry into the room, caught one round in the pelvis area returned three rounds to the role players chest area as I took two more rounds to the groin. I tried to figure out the lesson learned but it's hard to beat someone ready to smoke you. How do they teach folks to clear the door frame? Basically move from one room directly into the next, one goes left the other right. I got shot as soon as I entered the doorway. We didn't cut the pie before entering. No bangs, I assume. |
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During one of the drills I was lead in the stack, made entry into the room, caught one round in the pelvis area returned three rounds to the role players chest area as I took two more rounds to the groin. I tried to figure out the lesson learned but it's hard to beat someone ready to smoke you. How do they teach folks to clear the door frame? Basically move from one room directly into the next, one goes left the other right. I got shot as soon as I entered the doorway. We didn't cut the pie before entering. No bangs, I assume. This was room clearing for patrol, not SWAT. |
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I went through a FISH type class once (Shivworks AMIS). It was geared towards a lone armed individual who had to enter a structure for any number of reasons (retrieve a loved one, escape the structure, end an active shooter etc). I performed horribly and died in every single engagement. The thing I learned from the class is entering a structure and negotiating your way through it is a nightmare. I have to hand it to anyone who enters an urban environment knowing that there is an armed person inside. Given the option I would probably burn the structure down rather then enter it. |
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So for those of us who don't play with simmunitions, do they normally jam that much? Or did they give you the special gun? The last time I shot sims was in a revolver. I saw LOT'S of issues with it today. The jams required stripping the mags and several cycles of the slides. I like the noise and marking factor but I think airsoft for the money and reliability might be better. Make an airsoft gun that goes bang with realistic mags and actions. Bama, I've used the Sim Glocks several times, and they've always had poor reliability. I think regular cleaning (as in, after every session) would help, but I also believe the shape and design of the cartridge contributes to the malfunctions. BTW, on the "went in and got hit in the pelvis" scenario, did the instructors stress "violence of action?" IOW, did they teach you to penetrate into the room quickly, and to keep moving until the room had been cleared? I ask because several instructors in courses I've taken have said these things, but even then they didn't always turn out well for the room clearer.  Shooting accurately while walking sideways briskly is not an easy task.
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I went through a FISH type class once (Shivworks AMIS). It was geared towards a lone armed individual who had to enter a structure for any number of reasons (retrieve a loved one, escape the structure, end an active shooter etc). I performed horribly and died in every single engagement. The thing I learned from the class is entering a structure and negotiating your way through it is a nightmare. I have to hand it to anyone who enters an urban environment knowing that there is an armed person inside. Given the option I would probably burn the structure down rather then enter it. Very good point. I've come to a similar conclusion. Something to think about for those here that have the house-clearing fetishes whenever something goes bump in the night. My worst nightmare when I worked in LE was having to clear an entire school in an AS scenario. Building clearance is EXTREMELY taxing on your mind and body. |
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So for those of us who don't play with simmunitions, do they normally jam that much? Or did they give you the special gun? The last time I shot sims was in a revolver. I saw LOT'S of issues with it today. The jams required stripping the mags and several cycles of the slides. I like the noise and marking factor but I think airsoft for the money and reliability might be better. Make an airsoft gun that goes bang with realistic mags and actions. Bama, I've used the Sim Glocks several times, and they've always had poor reliability. I think regular cleaning (as in, after every session) would help, but I also believe the shape and design of the cartridge contributes to the malfunctions. BTW, on the "went in and got hit in the pelvis" scenario, did the instructors stress "violence of action?" IOW, did they teach you to penetrate into the room quickly, and to keep moving until the room had been cleared? I ask because several instructors in courses I've taken have said these things, but even then they didn't always turn out well for the room clearer. Shooting accurately while walking sideways briskly is not an easy task.Yes. I was shot as soon as I rounded the doorway from the room nextdoor. It was muzzle flash, bang, my firing three rounds, then receiving two more rounds. |
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I went through a FISH type class once (Shivworks AMIS). It was geared towards a lone armed individual who had to enter a structure for any number of reasons (retrieve a loved one, escape the structure, end an active shooter etc). I performed horribly and died in every single engagement. The thing I learned from the class is entering a structure and negotiating your way through it is a nightmare. I have to hand it to anyone who enters an urban environment knowing that there is an armed person inside. Given the option I would probably burn the structure down rather then enter it. Very good point. I've come to a similar conclusion. Something to think about for those here that have the house-clearing fetishes whenever something goes bump in the night. My worst nightmare when I worked in LE was having to clear an entire school in an AS scenario. Building clearance is EXTREMELY taxing on your mind and body. The military pretty much plans for 50% casualties if they're assaulting a dug in, well-armed and trained adversary, even one thats outnumbered. We were taught this applies to every room and hallway in a building, which means it'd kill a squad to take an average size house. Scary things to think of when you're doing it for reals. |
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If you get the chance, check out SouthNarc's AMIS (Armed Movement In Structures) class. I have had the pleasure of taking his ECQC, AMIS, and a knife class with him. Great instructor.
A goodly part of our AMIS class also involved FxF lowlight searching a structure using SIMS with an armed adversary hidden and waiting. Quite the "fun" experience. And yes, I have had the pleasure of having my SIMS jam in the ECQC class a number of times while engaging role playing classmates, or having it run dry at an inopportune time during his kick-ass F.U.T drill, a 2 on 1 FxF encounter. Thankfully Glocks also make great impact weapons on FIST helmets
AMIS review My 2005 ECQC review EDIT: danj makes a "colorful" appearance in my reviews above
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I went through a FISH type class once (Shivworks AMIS). It was geared towards a lone armed individual who had to enter a structure for any number of reasons (retrieve a loved one, escape the structure, end an active shooter etc). I performed horribly and died in every single engagement. The thing I learned from the class is entering a structure and negotiating your way through it is a nightmare. I have to hand it to anyone who enters an urban environment knowing that there is an armed person inside. Given the option I would probably burn the structure down rather then enter it. Very good point. I've come to a similar conclusion. Something to think about for those here that have the house-clearing fetishes whenever something goes bump in the night. My worst nightmare when I worked in LE was having to clear an entire school in an AS scenario. Building clearance is EXTREMELY taxing on your mind and body. The military pretty much plans for 50% casualties if they're assaulting a dug in, well-armed and trained adversary, even one thats outnumbered. We were taught this applies to every room and hallway in a building, which means it'd kill a squad to take an average size house. Scary things to think of when you're doing it for reals. In training...to put it in light...running with 5 other guys to defend an inner city building...we destroyed a light infantry company that was assaulting us. So...yeah...a properly prepared unit can devastate people in a MOUT environment. |
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Basically move from one room directly into the next, one goes left the other right. I got shot as soon as I entered the doorway. We didn't cut the pie before entering. EDIT - NVM...my reading comprehension sucks. Sounds like you were using 2 guys to make entry into the room. D'oh! |
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Bama
The gas airsoft guns have everything but recoil (slide moves and all but it's not the same) Weight is real close but it's distributed wrong ie a LOT of weight in the mag And the guns from china are less than $100 shipped Load the proper amount of bbs in a mag and it's a real good training tool |
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Basically move from one room directly into the next, one goes left the other right. I got shot as soon as I entered the doorway. We didn't cut the pie before entering. EDIT - NVM...my reading comprehension sucks. Sounds like you were using 2 guys to make entry into the room. D'oh! We ran two and three man teams depending. Two man team, one man enters and clears, second man posts up at the door for rear security. Three man team, one goes right the other left and clear the room, third man posts at the door for rear security. |
| I took an active shooter class a coupele weeks ago and the room clearing does suck. We were using airsoft pistols and rifles. I love the hooded drill that you got to experience. I have thrown this in a few training situations with my guys before. It is eye opening to say the least. I have seen people just shoot everyone, completely freeze, and every reaction in between. I videotape the drill and then show it to the student after we are done. Then it gets erased immediately. |
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Quoted: On the dry runs we were taught to to tuck the pistol in over our hip area instead of the traditional low ready gun I had learned in the past when approaching the door way. This is done so if the bad guy pops out on you your firearm is basically pointed at their torso, bang bang. Also to prevent a subject from grabbing your firearm. Interesting. I have heard this before too, as a criticism of the standard position SUL. |
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I attended operation urban Shield in the San Francisco bay area as a Role Player for the Assault on Amtrak mission site. After 2 twelve hour shifts with SIM firing H&K MP5A5s and Sig Sauer P226s, I lost all interest in using SIM coverted guns for training ever again.
Between not one person, RP or SWAT being able to get more than 4 rounds out of a gun before it jammed, (sometimes the on site armorer couldn't even get them loaded without the round breaking and jamming it!) And the rediculous accuracy, or lack of it, made the guns a nightmare to use. Training in type 1/2/3 malfunctions doesn't help when you have to strip the mag, lock the slide back, find a pen to push out the broken plastic slug, and then twist a napkin inside the chamber to get enough of the colored soap out for the next round to actually be able to enter the chamber. And someone obvious missed on the boxes of SIM ammo where it says to not store them any way other than rounds flat and pointed down. (So the soap settle weight forward.) The roundswere so randomly off balance than one shot would go straight, the next would impact 10 feet to the left/right/up/down of your point of aim, and the next would almost seem to curve wildly in the air. And since the ammo was "old leftover stock we got for cheap", more than half of the rounds wouldn't even break open, no matter the distance. One officer ened up getting to watch his team medic fish an unbroken SIM round out from 3 inches inside his hand as the round entered between his knuckels and traveled under his skin between his fingers. 
As cool as it was to get to help out and meet some awesome Local SWAT, FBI HRT, and other LE Officers, I think I speak for everyone there that day when I say, "Go get some good airsoft pistols, load them with good bbs, and finish up the end of the day with some live fire drills so the lack of recoil doesn't screw up your perception of the guns." You'll say money buying four $130 airsoft pistols vs one $800+ converstion kit and them more $ for the ammo. In comparison, the UTM training rounds I used during Tactical Responses "The Fight-Force on Force Scenarios" were fantastic. We used converted Glcok 17s with XS Big Dot sights. And the only cleaning they needed was a dry bore snake every 50 or so rounds. And IF they did jam, any normally practiced malfunction clearance would solve the issue. So no going for your pocket knife to get some mangled plastic sabot out. Downside, I think the UTM kits are even more expensive then the SIM kits. But it's been a long time since I looked at them and I could definatly be mixing the prices up. Thats my humple opinion based on my experiances with SIM guns/rounds. Sounds like awesome training Bama. It makes me want to ask my friends in the local Dept if they need any OPFOR/role players for upcoming training. Never knew where I can learn more tools to keep me alive and help out the guys on the front lines too. ETA, forgive any spelling errors. I haven't slept tonite and the screen is a tad blurry. I'll clean it up one I've rested my eyes. |
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On the dry runs we were taught to to tuck the pistol in over our hip area instead of the traditional low ready gun I had learned in the past when approaching the door way. This is done so if the bad guy pops out on you your firearm is basically pointed at their torso, bang bang. Also to prevent a subject from grabbing your firearm. Interesting. I have heard this before too, as a criticism of the standard position SUL. With SUL your pistol is against your chest and pointed down. With the Tuck it's pointed 90 degrees to floor and ready to squeeze off a round if attacked from the front. The second and third man in the stack is in what they called a Modified Tuck which is basically a one hand SUL because your other hand is on the man in front of you shoulder for the squeeze. |