[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Bloom Box may replace solar panels? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 2/24/2010 12:43:43 PM EDT
This was announced today, a fuel cell power plant in a box. |
| It will not replace the solar cell. It may compete with it, but this is fueled by hydrocarbons. I do think we are within 10 years of a break away discovery in the field though. Something that can survice without the crazy subsidizing currently propping up the "market". |
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Quoted: That video wasn't very informative.  How does it generate electricity? It is a fuel cell. More info: At a press conference Wednesday, Silicon Valley startup Bloom Energy showed off its new, heavily hyped technology, which harnesses chemical reactions to create energy. The company's mission: to revolutionize the world's fuel sources. Bloom's main product is the Bloom Energy Server, a generator based around a smart new fuel cell technology. Fuel cells rely upon chemical reactions to generate energy rather than fossil fuels, and as such are considered cleaner, more affordable, and more reliable than the traditional energy sources. Fuel cell technology has been under development for decades, primarily concentrating on chemical reactions using hydrogen –– an element that can be volatile and difficult to store. Bloom's fuel cell technology is fundamentally different, running on a wide range of renewable or traditional fuels. The technology has roots in NASA's Mars space program, where Dr. KR Sridhar, principal co-founder and CEO of Bloom Energy, was charged with building technology to help sustain life on Mars. His mandate: Use solar energy and water to produce air to breathe and fuel for transportation. Sridhar's invention converts air and nearly any fuel source –– ranging from natural gas to a wide range of biogases –– into electricity via a clean electrochemical process, rather than dirty combustion. Even running on a fossil fuel, the systems are approximately 67% cleaner than a typical coal-fired power plant, explains Bloom. When powered by a renewable fuel, the company's Energy Server can be 100% cleaner. Each Energy Server consists of thousands of Bloom's fuel cells, flat, solid ceramic squares made from a common sand-like "powder." Bloom Energy states that to date, Bloom Energy Servers, currently in deployment for several Fortune 500 companies, have produced more than 11 million kilowatt hours (kWh) of electricity, with CO2 reductions estimated at 14 million pounds. The technology industry breathlessly watched and waited for Wednesday's unveiling. John Doerr, a partner at investment firm Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers and Bloom Energy board member, shared in the hype. "For years, there have been promises of new energy solutions that are clean, distributed, affordable, and reliable; today we learn that Bloom, formerly in stealth, has actually delivered," he said. "Americans want clean, affordable, energy, 24x7 –– and all the jobs that go with it. Bloom's boxes are a breakthrough, serving energy, serving demanding customers, and serving our country." The company's customers seem to echo Doerr's enthusiasm, many of which are leading businesses. Coca-Cola, Cox, eBay, FedEx, Google, Staples, and more have been running the Energy Servers. Coke's 500kW installation at its Odwalla plant in Dinuba, CA, will run on re-directed biogas and is expected to provide 30% of the plant’s power needs while reducing its carbon footprint by an estimated 35%. "This new fuel cell technology has great promise and represents an important step for Coca-Cola in continuing to grow our business without growing the carbon footprint," said Brian Kelley, President and General Manager, Coca-Cola North America. He noted that the Bloom Servers can help the company reduce carbon emissions while improving efficiency and using cleaner forms of energy." In a video shown at the event, California Senator Dianne Feinstein, Cypress Semiconductor CEO T.J. Rogers, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg and others raved about the new innovation. Mayor Bloomberg said he was excited from the first time he saw the technology in action: "My first reaction was this was a company guaranteed for greatness." "When we look at Bloom Energy," he added, "we are looking at the future of business, at the future of the economy, at the future of America." |
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The technology has roots in NASA's Mars space program, where Dr. KR Sridhar, principal co-founder and CEO of Bloom Energy, was charged with building technology to help sustain life on Mars. His mandate: Use solar energy and water to produce air to breathe and fuel for transportation. |
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Quoted: I ain't holding my breath. it's legitimate technology. it has a flexible fuel input (natural gas, biogas, etc) and also uses oxygen to create a chemical reaction that provides power. the interesting part to me is the scalability. a unit the size of a shoebox could generate enough power CHEAPLY to power a large residence. while the large industrial units are running in the hundreds of thousands, the individual pieces should be much more affordable. i would purchase 4-5 of these to have a system in place and a backup just in case. supposedly 2 of the small fuel cells are all that is needed to power a large house. it uses natural resources (gas, etc.) at a GREATLY reduced rate compared to conventional technology. for you doubters, watch the video and listen to the companies who have already bought into it and have saved hundreds of thousands of dollars. google, ebay, microsoft, etc... |
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Quoted:
Fuel cells rely upon chemical reactions to generate energy rather than fossil fuels, and as such are considered cleaner, more affordable, and more reliable than the traditional energy sources.
Wait... huh? Reporters are stupid. Let's peer inside their thoughts for a spell, shall we? Anything "clean" musn't have a thing to do with those dirty republican fossil fuels |
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Quoted:
It will not replace the solar cell. It may compete with it, but this is fueled by hydrocarbons. I do think we are within 10 years of a break away discovery in the field though. Something that can survice without the crazy subsidizing currently propping up the "market". Which field, solar or fuel cell? |
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Quoted:
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It will not replace the solar cell. It may compete with it, but this is fueled by hydrocarbons. I do think we are within 10 years of a break away discovery in the field though. Something that can survice without the crazy subsidizing currently propping up the "market". Which field, solar or fuel cell? Either really. Non traditional power generation. The selling point of this product is that it can be installed anywhere with nat. gas lines, requires no grid. If electric vehicles actually become viable, the grid is in danger of being overloaded. Having a way for consumers to efficiently produce power consistently, reliably, and in quantity off the "grid" will be imperative. Whether this particular product can fill that void without subsidizing is anyones guess. My reasoning behind a new viable technology emerging is that the consumer is ready for it, provided it is competitive with current methods. Traditional energy sources are only getting more expensive and every increase makes other methods more reasonable. Back in the day our world ran on whale oil, then it became scarce/expensive and the world hunted down a cure: Crude oil. While a simpler fix then, the same is possible now. It will happen when the market is ready for it. I think that time is approaching. As far as this particular fuel cell, i don't know enough about the technology to speculate on it's future. |
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Where is Doc Brown when we need him most? Oh wait, November 5, 1955. Damn! |
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Also if I remember it correctly our natural gas resources are as large as Saudi Arabia's oil resources, so this is a really big deal to us.
My question is, will this technology drive down the price of oil? Will for instance homes with oil fired furnaces switch to this technology? Google, Ebay and a Fedex instilation are using the technology and it is working well. So, this not a pipe dream. |
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It's a great system , if it does what they say it does (cheap fuelcells with a long lifespan). Many companies have been looking for long term , cheap fuel cells , if this company can do it , then they're on to something. Clean energy it is not , cheap portable super dense energy it is. |
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Nothing really in the world is 'clean' , solar cells generate arsenic while being produced and a host of other heavy metals , wind turbines are almost as bad , ect ect. I'm not saying it's evil or bad, it's just that the 'clean ' crew seems to think of everything as roses and kittens if their KGB handlers tell them to like it. Quoted: Quoted: How is it not clean? In the terminology of global warming fanatics, it is not clean when it runs on natural gas or other fossil fuels. Teh evil CO2 and all that jazz. |
| Was reading about this in the paper at lunch today, they seem to have made a big breakthrough, hopefully this will pan out. Hell this would if nothing else have great military applications, but it would be nice if we were able to decentralize our electric grid. |
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From their own information, $7-8 million per mwh installed capacity, a heat rate of roughly 6.6, a lifespan of 10 years, plus two replacements of the plates inside during that timeframe at an unknown cost. No mention that I could find if the unit can regulate or not.
Might work well for remote areas, otherwise this is not the distributed generation solution you are looking for. ETA: Pressure requirements are 15 psi for the natural gas which does not bode well for the residential market, and if you are above 6k feet in elevation, you are out as well. |
| It relies on chemical reactions rather than fossil fuels for energy? What the heck do they think the energy comes from when you burn fossil fuels? It's a freakin' chemical reaction! It's like saying that this new steam engine uses vaporized water rather than steam for its power. |
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Quoted:
Was reading about this in the paper at lunch today, they seem to have made a big breakthrough, hopefully this will pan out. Hell this would if nothing else have great military applications, but it would be nice if we were able to decentralize our electric grid. This factor makes this a huge item if this turns to be viable tech. All power plants are critical infrastructure now, but the grid is old and is very susceptible to massive failures as seen in the problems on the east coast the past few years. Decentralized power like this could be set up quickly and offer alot of options in disaster situations. I for one will keep a eye on this product. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Was reading about this in the paper at lunch today, they seem to have made a big breakthrough, hopefully this will pan out. Hell this would if nothing else have great military applications, but it would be nice if we were able to decentralize our electric grid. This factor makes this a huge item if this turns to be viable tech. All power plants are critical infrastructure now, but the grid is old and is very susceptible to massive failures as seen in the problems on the east coast the past few years. Decentralized power like this could be set up quickly and offer alot of options in disaster situations. I for one will keep a eye on this product. I love the idea of viable distributed generation as much as anyone, but dont forget that these things run on natural gas...yeah they do seem to be fuel flexible but their primary focus SEEMS to be on natural gas. As far as a disaster situation source for electricity, I don't think it is. Each 100kw unit is $700-800k, plus fuel. A 100kw diesel generator can be had easily for $15-20k. Yes, the diesel unit is not nearly as efficient but I think we can all agree that the price differential would buy A LOT of fuel, especially for a unit that would be typically be used for disaster situations. FWIW, and this is NOT a very fair comparison at all considering capacity factors, a 1.5 mwh GE wind turbine generator costs about $2 million, per GE. Just a reference for competing "green" energy out there. I am not going to comment on the capacity factor for wind...you can do your own research and draw your own conclusions. These guys claim to have a new angle on fuel cell technology, I just don't think it is viable yet given their numbers. Correct me if I am wrong. |
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Quoted:
I ain't holding my breath. I agree. Quoted:
Eventually, this sort of decentralized power will win in the market. When it does, the price of copper and aluminum will plummet as we salvage all of the power lines. Let me refer you to this post: Quoted:
I ain't holding my breath. That being said, I am very interested... but I've seen this shit come and go a LOT and no tangible results thus far. I'll buy 2 when they get here. |
| The most interesting part of it is the ability to print the fuel cell layers with an "ink" which makes it cheaper to produce. That technology could make hydrogen and lithium fuel cells cheaper too. If the price is right I'd buy one to offset my peak load draw, especially if they go to a scaled meter system here locally that charges me more during peak. The Bloom box will work on any biogas, I believe one company has been pumping the methane from a garbage dump into them to produce electricity. It would be a hell of a masters project to get a few and run them off several fuels at different ambient environments to see how the box really performs. |
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Quoted: The 60 Minutes video claims eBay is running theirs off gas from a landfill.The most interesting part of it is the ability to print the fuel cell layers with an "ink" which makes it cheaper to produce. That technology could make hydrogen and lithium fuel cells cheaper too. If the price is right I'd buy one to offset my peak load draw, especially if they go to a scaled meter system here locally that charges me more during peak. The Bloom box will work on any biogas, I believe one company has been pumping the methane from a garbage dump into them to produce electricity. It would be a hell of a masters project to get a few and run them off several fuels at different ambient environments to see how the box really performs. This may not be the holy grail, but I do believe a step closer. We may be getting close to personal power plants for everyone. |
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Quoted:
He claims in the 60 minutes video that it should cost about $3000 for the average home.  That's awesome. I already have natural gas here. If it ended up costing about $0.07/kWh, which is half of what I'm paying now, it would be very interesting, but the payoff may still take a few years. KR says it would run off of solar... so I wonder, does that mean it would run off of hydrogen? One could use solar panels to electrolyze water and store hydrogen. However, it looks like the cost and output benefits are not there yet with solar. Right now, I think the cheapest photovoltaic cells are around $1/W, but have read that advancements could get that to $0.10/W. At $100 per kW, that makes it very cost effective. I figure if I could get even 3kW for most of the day on a hot sunny summer day, it would run my house. This is a great advancement, and I hope it takes off. |
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We have been eagerly discussing the Bloom Box at the lunch table
for several days now. The implications for this are ENORMOUS. Thankfully, one of our group understands power pretty well, and can explain some of the technical stuff to the rest of us. No power grid, other than street and traffic lights. No more power outages during severe weather. Almost no emissions, very low gas supply costs, you could recharge your electric vehicle, and/or "gas" up your natural gas-run vehicle from the house. Evidently, more than a few big name corporate headquaters are using this power source right now. I really hope this is what it's inventor says it is; it would be revolutionary as far as our energy is concerned. The Bloom Box would replace ALL energy sources now in use. |