Posted: 2/3/2010 8:56:58 AM EDT
Yesterday I was told by a buddy who is a WO1 Blackhawk pilot, that he was told by an aireal gunnery instructor that at some angles the rotor wash of a helo can bounce the bullets back into the Aircraft and bring it down. 
I am a civilian helo pilot so I am not totally dumb to the physics of rotary wing flight but it doesnt seem like a bullet traveling at over 2500 fps would be affected at all. So I replyed "that guys was an idiot". Anybody have any experience with this? I have been flying for a little bit and have never heard of this from Vietnam to present. I'm pretty sure this is bogus. |
|
Its the Army. I had an M16 "SME" tell me that the 5.56 round tumbles through the air, etc, and that's how it is so effective... I tried to explain wound channels and hydraulics, but there was no persuading him... This was last summer.
Take anything "taught" by .mil with a grain of salt. |
|
Quoted:
Its the Army. I had an M16 "SME" tell me that the 5.56 round tumbles through the air, etc, and that's how it is so effective... I tried to explain wound channels and hydraulics, but there was no persuading him... This was last summer. Take anything "taught" by .mil with a grain of salt. More importantly, take any claim relayed by a WO1 with a grain of salt. -CW4 (ret) |
|
Flew AH1s and armed 58Ds. Fired a lot of ordinance both fixed and flex. Lots of bullets down range with never a problem.
Aerodynamic has some effect on projectiles, but generally airflow downward through the rotor is negligible. Takes a larger projectile to be really effected, like the 2.75" rocket. There are a lot of factors that go into Aerial Ballistics, but someone is full of shit. My guess would be that someone is having fun with the WOJG. Maybe he should be looking for rotor wash, flight line, grid squares or sky hooks. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Beware of 2nd Lt's that say "it's been my exerience" and WO!1s who say "watch this". 
(CW4 Ret.) Or pilots who say, "I'll help you load the rockets." Then bounce the proxy fuse for the 10 pound HE warhead on the ground.   
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b265/bytor94/LoadingAH-1Graf1986or87.jpg Boy, does this bring back memories! Check out the surgical tubing on the helmet. Early NVG rig. Been there, done that. I used to but the fuse on the end of my boot when loading, kept it off the ground. I was in Germany flying out of Fuecht AAF with the 2nd ACR in 86 and 87. Flew into and out of Graf a lot. Is this your picture or did you find it somewhere? |
|
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Beware of 2nd Lt's that say "it's been my exerience" and WO!1s who say "watch this". (CW4 Ret.) Or pilots who say, "I'll help you load the rockets." Then bounce the proxy fuse for the 10 pound HE warhead on the ground. http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b265/bytor94/LoadingAH-1Graf1986or87.jpg Boy, does this bring back memories! Check out the surgical tubing on the helmet. Early NVG rig. Been there, done that. I used to but the fuse on the end of my boot when loading, kept it off the ground. I was in Germany flying out of Fuecht AAF with the 2nd ACR in 86 and 87. Flew into and out of Graf a lot. Is this your picture or did you find it somewhere? It's one I took when I didn't have an aircraft on my pad. I spent many a day at Graf humping rockets and 20mm. Since you were there in those years, I may have loaded your aircraft a time or two. I know we went to Graf with the 2nd a couple of times. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Beware of 2nd Lt's that say "it's been my exerience" and WO!1s who say "watch this".
(CW4 Ret.) Or pilots who say, "I'll help you load the rockets." Then bounce the proxy fuse for the 10 pound HE warhead on the ground.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b265/bytor94/LoadingAH-1Graf1986or87.jpg As a current gun pilot I love seeing these old pics. I've had the pleasure of meeting some former cobra pilots and listening to their soldiers about taming the beast I gotta say that I have a ton of respect for you guys, I have heard that it was a handful to fly.
|
|
'As a current gun pilot I love seeing these old pics. I've had the pleasure of meeting some former cobra pilots and listening to their soldiers about taming the beast I gotta say that I have a ton of respect for you guys, I have heard that it was a handful to fly.'
When you say "current gun pilot", I'm assuming you mean AH-64. During my time as a Cobra pilot, I primarilly flew the S (MC) model, now more commonly known as the F. I also have a lot of time in the G series and most of the single engine versions of the Cobra. I enjoyed the hell out of flying them. Most of the time! While I was still flying them, the MGW was 10,000 lbs (I understand that was upped to 10,500 for DS/DS). At that weight you had to be careful with the collective. Easy to over torque. But at about 9,000 lbs, it was still very manueverable. I was part of an early (short lived) program at Ft. Lewis back in the early 80s. Helicopter Air-to-Air. Seems we had a couple of IPs really interested in the concept and got approval to attend the Marine course. When they got back, they put together a course, I was in the 2nd and next to last class. What a blast! The most intense flying I've ever done, and that includes flying armed OH-58D under NVGs off of Navy ships in the very darkest of nights. A friend from my Germany days went to the Apache course and stayed as an IP. He thought it was wonderful to have all the power you required. He also felt sorry for the younger generation of Army pilots (both Blackhawk and Apache) that hadn't really learned to fly. By that I mean that you don't get the feeling of oneness with the aircraft. You had to have good pilot technique to get the most from the single engine airframes. That includes the OH-58D now. If you really want to become a great pilot, put yourself in an underpowered single engine helicopter and try doing armed recon work in a hot environment. I will give the current generation credit for being able to manage a lot more going on in the cockpit then in the old days. |
|
Hes a good guy, We work together he is also a 60 driver and he even said it to me with an air of hesitation, like he even thought is was B.S.
I bag on him all the time at work about him being Army and me being a Navy reservist (even though I tried to join the Army...Twice) but its all in good fun. He is fresh outta Rucker and in the WA Natl guard. |
|
I flew the F-4 in the ‘70s. There was some concern that during low dive angle strafing, bullets could bounce off hard ground/rocks and come up as you were overflying the target after firing. With tracers you can sometimes see them bounce and come back up. To preclude this, we made a hard, short 90 degree bank angle pull as a part of clearing the target.
Bombs and rockets generally have a 3000 ft. frag pattern. When you release them, you want to take a jink clearing the target to make sure you stay out of the frag pattern. Low altitude/low dive angle bombing has its own hazards. High drag devices are generally used to provide safe separation of the bomb and a/c to prevent fragging. One of our guys shot himself down when snakeye fin only partially deployed. The bomb followed the a/c and when it detonated, he was in his own frag pattern. It should be harder for a helo to frag himself with bomb or rocket fragments or bullet ricochets due to his slower speed. We were bombing at 500 kts. in F-4s. I would expect an AH-64 to be somewhere around 150 kts. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Somebody is full of sh*$. Lots of bullets fired from an M60D, and not one made it back. Same here...twins even. Did he end his story with "now, I gotta go down to Ace Hardware and get me some rotor wash" It's stored right next to the spare boxes of flight line. |