[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Red Flag (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 8/12/2008 6:16:43 AM EDT
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I have a good buddy flying the F15K this week with the South Koreans. Is Red Flag considered an "All Star" training session or is it a lottery type opportunity? This guy is one of the smarterst folks I've ever been around: Valedictorian in HS, USAFA and Computer Science Masters- all with high/highest marks....... Its good to know there are so many bright people watching out for us. |
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My squadron, VMFA(AW)-224 (USMC F/A-18D), was invited twice to go there. The first time it was Green Flag, the second was Red Flag. Both times was a lot of fun. It's kinda like Top Gun, but not quite like it. It's also international. The last time I went, we had planes from Thailand, Germany, Italy, and a few others that I can't think of at the moment. Great thing... it's a few miles away from Las Vegas! Oh... tell your buddy to make sure he doesn't fly anywhere near the RED BOX! That is super, super, super, super critical! |
| In the late 70's, I went there twice in F-4s. It was a lot of fun and very good training. I did fly through the NE corner of the box. I had an engine fire light and was going back as directly as I could. Even though it was a valid emergency, the security folks were still pissed. I found out years later that at that time, they were developing the F-117, the blackest project of it's day. |
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Most guys in the USAF that have been there would say its, ho-hum BUT its considered the best training in the world by outsiders- where else can you have a full up war with all support assets and fight with the best in the world. Its there for specific purpose- to get a wingman a taste of chaos/controlled aggression/ a feel for what combat might be like. Ive flown in 4, have 2 more coming up. You get asked to participate, countries will ask and they usually have to meet min reqs before being allowed to fly. They usually get training (large force exercises) with US forces before they are allowed to go. We flew with the K models in ROK "mini RF" a couple of months ago to get them "ready" |
| The specific purpose was to get over the “first two days” hump of a major war. It was modeled on the Israeli experience of the '73 war. I presume in the last 35 years it has continued to evolve. When I did it in the ‘70s, there wasn’t much foreign participation. Foreign then was the Navy and Marine Corps. |
""The origin of Red Flag was the unacceptable performance of U.S. Air Force pilots in air combat maneuvering (ACM) (air-to-air combat) during the Vietnam War in comparison to previous wars. Among the several factors resulting in this disparity was a lack of realistic ACM training. USAF pilots were not versed in the core values and basics of ACM due to the belief that BVR (Beyond Visual Range) engagements and equipment made maneuvering combats obsolete, and nearly all pilots were unpracticed in maneuvering against dissimilar aircraft because of an Air Force emphasis on flying safe An Air Force analysis (Project Red Baron II) showed that a pilot's chances of survival in combat dramatically increased after he had completed 10 combat missions. Red Flag was created in 1975 to offer US pilots the opportunity to fly 10 realistically-simulated combat missions in a safe training environment with measurable results." From Wiki |
While this is true, it is incomplete. Red Flag isn’t ACM training. It is force on force training. ACM training was to be provided by the 64th and 65th Tactical Fighter Squadrons by going to the home field of the unit and providing ACM instruction and training. They flew F-5Es to simulate the MIG-21. They then put things together at Red Flag. The Navy did much the same thing. They had a 2 to 1 exchange ratio prior to the shutdown in ’68. CAPT Ault threw himself on his sword by telling the Navy they were totally screwed up. The result was the creation of the Navy Fighter Weapons School, aka “Top Gun.” The Navy used the F-5E and T-38 to simulate the MIG-21, and the A-4, with slats bolted up, to simulate the MIG-17. When we went back north in ’72, the exchange ratio was 12 to 1. We came out of Viet Nam with a bunch of MIG killers and two ACES, Randy Cunningham for the Navy and Steve Richie for the Air Force. What pushed them off the dime was the Israeli experience in ’73. They took major hits their first couple of days of that totally unexpected war. After the first two days, they got things back together and the loss rate went way down. Red Flag was, IMO, set up to duplicate that experience, safely, to get guys over the hump. “Safely” wasn’t safe. They still lost two a/c per year in the ‘70s due to guys getting overly enthusiastic and screwing up. |
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ClemY Thanks for your insight. I can see your point when the ground attack portion is taking into consideration as a force on force type excercise. In my years stationed at Nellis and being involved with Red Flag from the start, the limelight was always on the air to air portion of the excercise. The IAF suffered major loss during the Yom Kippur war due to Soviet Surface to air missles. Air to Air they kicked Eygpts butt when you got 2 IAF F4's going against 12 Egyptian Migs scoring 7 kills |
| I don’t know how effective the canards are on the SU. If nothing else, they should generate downwash that should help the main wing work better at high angles of attack and reduce supersonic trim drag. All this stuff is light years a head of the F-4s I flew back in the ‘70s. |
It happened before I got there in 1995. The 335th and 336th had both switched over to F-15E by the time Desert Shield happened but both were not considered fully operational ready yet. But they were still sent to the gulf anyway. The 334th still had F-4s and didn't deploy. I was assigned to the 333rd while I was there form '95 to 2000. The 333rd was stood up there in '94 as the F-15E aircrew training unit. From the Shady J website; In 1988 the Fourth began transitioning to the F-15E Strike Eagle, the Air Force's newest and most advanced tactical fighter aircraft. The first F-15E arrived Dec. 29, 1988, and the 336th Tactical Fighter Squadron became the first operational F-15E squadron in the Air Force Oct. 1, 1989. The transition from the F-4E to the F-15E was completed July 1, 1991, making the Fourth the first operational F-15E wing in the Air Force. At the height of conversion training, the Fourth was one of the first units tasked to react to Iraq's invasion of Kuwait Aug. 2, 1990. Two F-15E tactical fighter squadrons were deployed to Southwest Asia in August and December of that year. The unit earned another first by spearheading nighttime strikes against Iraqi forces Jan. 16, 1991, helping to bring the Persian Gulf War to a successful conclusion Feb. 28. www.seymourjohnson.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=4330 |
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From Aviation Week today. India's Advanced Su-30MKIs Come to USA Aug 21, 2008 By David A. Fulghum [email protected] American, French and South Korean aircrews are getting a close look at one of the world's fabled aircraft - the Indian air force's Su-30MKI strike fighter. An Indian air force group of 50 pilots and weapon systems officers - flying eight Su-30MKIs, two Il-78 tankers and an Il-76 transport - are just finishing a month-long deployment to the United States with a training cycle at the latest, annual Red Flag aerial combat excercises based at Nellis Air Force Base, Nev. They were part of a contingent of 246 IAF personnel selected from 20 (fighter) Squadron, Poona; 78 (tanker) Squadron, Agra; 44 (transport) Squadron, Nagpur, and a special operations team trained for combat search and rescue, says Group Captain Dee Choudhry. Of great interest to observers - and no doubt to U.S. intelligence - was the Su-30MKI's Russian-made, long-range radar and AA-12 Adder air-to-air missile capability. In fact, foreign air force officials admit that they suspect that intelligence gathering goes on at an event like Red Flag. India's Su-30MKI aircraft offers an especially attractive target. It carries the Tikhomirov Scientific Research Institute of Instrument Design NIIP-BARS radar that so far has only been seen on the MKI. But it's considered a variant of what NIIP developed for Russia's new Su-35 multi-role aircraft and what it's working on for the next-generation PAK-FA fifth-generation stealth fighter. One long-time military analyst mused to Aviation Week that the event might provide insight, although it was no certainty. "I'll bet your [intelligence] boys hovered up every little squiggly amp from BARS. [Yet] sometimes the [radar's] training mode is just a software package that emulates the radar transmissions, but it's actually not emitting." Indeed, to observers' dismay, and no doubt to that of the U.S. intelligence community, the IAF flew with a number of handicaps, some of them self-imposed, some not. Their powerful Russian-made radar was, in fact, emitting, says Choudhry, but operating only in the training mode which limited all its range and spectrum of capabilities. In addition, the IAF wasn't allowed to use chaff and flares to avoid being targeted by surface-to-air missiles nor did its aircraft have the common data link. CDL brings a flow of targeting information into the cockpit displays that improves the accuracy and speed of data transfer and eliminates the need for most communications. The Indian air crews had to rely on voice communications which slowed the process and limited situational awareness. Despite its limitations, the Su-30MKI's radar was able enough to allow the IAF's Sukhois to participate in a beyond-visual-range fight with U.S. aggressor aircraft carrying simulated AA-10C air-to-air missiles. Because there were so many foreign aircraft capable of offensive counter-air/escort missions (including French Rafales and South Korean F-15Ks), the Sukhois are flying fewer air-to-air missions than Indian team members had hoped, Choudhry says. "It was almost what we expected," Choudhry says. "Because we couldn't use our chaff and flares, when we were targeted by SAMs we were shot down. And there was no picture in the cockpit to help our situational awareness so the workload on the [aircrews] was very high." Nonetheless, "We came a long way. We trained hard. And the degree of difficulty was not unexpected." Photo showing Indian Air Force support conducting post-flight maintenance on an SU-30 Fighter following a Red Flag mission at Nellis Air Force Base on Aug. 13 by USAF Airman 1st Class Ryan Whitney.) Article Comments |
Even the mechanic is wearing aviators 
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Great pictures! What's the source? I thought the RB57Gs were long gone. Recently reported in Aviation Week that ROK and McCair were promoting a possible super F-15 with FBW, thrust vector control, F-22-type radar, AND a vertical stabalizerless airframe--horizontal stabs with significant dihedral to compensate. Would be a poor man's F-22. Interesting conversaton piece. |
The NASA plane is an RB57G, which was a derivative of the B57 Martin Canberra bomber. It was used during the cold war as a supplement to the U2 and pretty much duplicated it's capabilities, but could carry a much larger payload. The modified airplane had huge wings, and signficantly upgraded engines over the standard B57. Don't know what NASA is doing with one now. Has to cost a fortune to keep flying. |
Nope, WB-57F. W = Weather  NASA WB-57 High Altitude Research Program |
Those are obviously not Wright J65s in the wings. What are they? I guess nobody misses cartridge engine starters. 
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TF-33s |
FAPFAPFAP. There are few planes I'd rather fly than a WB-57, if I got a chance. |
LITENING targeting pod 
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Wow, I bet the guys at North Grumman, Rolling Meadows, IL never thought their equipment would be bolted under THAT aircraft!! Thanks for the pics. |
