Posted: 10/4/2011 11:52:47 AM EDT
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Geeze do these poor guys look beaten down.
This is the first time I've noticed it but so many of them look like hell. Their shirts are wrinkled, hair is disheveled, and their ties are crooked. So much for "living the dream." I'm convinced they are their own worst enemy and can really carry most of the blame for their poverty wages. |
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Quoted: Geeze do these poor guys look beaten down. This is the first time I've noticed it but so many of them look like hell. Their shirts are wrinkled, hair is disheveled, and their ties are crooked. So much for "living the dream." I'm convinced they are their own worst enemy and can really carry most of the blame for their poverty wages. You would be mostly wrong. Alpa and APA screwed it up decades ago by letting management divide and conquer. The one I used to work for was the only company that ever received a 100% vote in favor of a strike.  That's what they told us anyway. |
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Quoted:
Geeze do these poor guys look beaten down. This is the first time I've noticed it but so many of them look like hell. Their shirts are wrinkled, hair is disheveled, and their ties are crooked. So much for "living the dream." I'm convinced they are their own worst enemy and can really carry most of the blame for their poverty wages. 
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Quoted:
I have never seen a willingness to work for peanuts at any other job. Pilots really do stick it out. The shortage will come... Someday...  No, actually it won't. In 1964 my second cousin took his muli-engine checkride in a DC-7 into Stapleton for United Air Lines. This is what will happen if they ever run out of pilots. UAL was hiring with a PPL with a draft deferment / or done with federal service in 1964. This was the only time between 1903 and 2011 there was ever a pilot shortage - short of war... 
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Pilots are a wierd bunch.
I get calls every day from people that will do my job for less. They have no clue what my salary is, but they will do it for less. Between young guys with that attitude and no support from the pilot union, the regionals are in a bad place. Some day the union will be filled with young guys that got fucked for 3/4 of their career. Guess what they will do to the younger guys? Im staying corporate. I've carved out a nice hole for myself by having both pilot and mechanic ratings. I could never do 121 service. |
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Quoted:
Geeze do these poor guys look beaten down. This is the first time I've noticed it but so many of them look like hell. Their shirts are wrinkled, hair is disheveled, and their ties are crooked. So much for "living the dream." I'm convinced they are their own worst enemy and can really carry most of the blame for their poverty wages. to the OP: I'm couious, as a former Regional Pilot, and ASA pilot for that matter, what do you base this pithy observation on? These poor excuses for pilots that you observed, how many legs had they flown, did they have an APU, where they trying like heck to make up for a delay that was not of their doing? At the same time, who the hell are you to criticize? Industry insider, neutral observer, or disgruntled passanger? It's been a hell of a long day for me, over 9.5 hours in the air, and a long trip...I did get to bring 253 troops out of Iraq tonight though so you can see that I'm a bit tired and testy...but I'd love to hear about your in depth study of the industry.
ka oh, yeah, please post your qualifications . ie: flight time, A/C flown, ratings. Just curious |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Geeze do these poor guys look beaten down. This is the first time I've noticed it but so many of them look like hell. Their shirts are wrinkled, hair is disheveled, and their ties are crooked. So much for "living the dream." I'm convinced they are their own worst enemy and can really carry most of the blame for their poverty wages. to the OP: I'm couious, as a former Regional Pilot, and ASA pilot for that matter, what do you base this pithy observation on? These poor excuses for pilots that you observed, how many legs had they flown, did they have an APU, where they trying like heck to make up for a delay that was not of their doing? At the same time, who the hell are you to criticize? Industry insider, neutral observer, or disgruntled passanger? It's been a hell of a long day for me, over 9.5 hours in the air, and a long trip...I did get to bring 253 troops out of Iraq tonight though so you can see that I'm a bit tired and testy...but I'd love to hear about your in depth study of the industry.
ka oh, yeah, please post your qualifications . ie: flight time, A/C flown, ratings. Just curious +1 |
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You got to fly troops out of Iraq today! I'm going to guess that you work for either World Airways, Ryan or North American. I ask this because at Delta Airlines we have the contract for these aircraft.
Quoted:
Quoted:
Geeze do these poor guys look beaten down. This is the first time I've noticed it but so many of them look like hell. Their shirts are wrinkled, hair is disheveled, and their ties are crooked. So much for "living the dream." I'm convinced they are their own worst enemy and can really carry most of the blame for their poverty wages. to the OP: I'm couious, as a former Regional Pilot, and ASA pilot for that matter, what do you base this pithy observation on? These poor excuses for pilots that you observed, how many legs had they flown, did they have an APU, where they trying like heck to make up for a delay that was not of their doing? At the same time, who the hell are you to criticize? Industry insider, neutral observer, or disgruntled passanger? It's been a hell of a long day for me, over 9.5 hours in the air, and a long trip...I did get to bring 253 troops out of Iraq tonight though so you can see that I'm a bit tired and testy...but I'd love to hear about your in depth study of the industry.
ka oh, yeah, please post your qualifications . ie: flight time, A/C flown, ratings. Just curious |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Geeze do these poor guys look beaten down. This is the first time I've noticed it but so many of them look like hell. Their shirts are wrinkled, hair is disheveled, and their ties are crooked. So much for "living the dream." I'm convinced they are their own worst enemy and can really carry most of the blame for their poverty wages. to the OP: I'm couious, as a former Regional Pilot, and ASA pilot for that matter, what do you base this pithy observation on? These poor excuses for pilots that you observed, how many legs had they flown, did they have an APU, where they trying like heck to make up for a delay that was not of their doing? At the same time, who the hell are you to criticize? Industry insider, neutral observer, or disgruntled passanger? It's been a hell of a long day for me, over 9.5 hours in the air, and a long trip...I did get to bring 253 troops out of Iraq tonight though so you can see that I'm a bit tired and testy...but I'd love to hear about your in depth study of the industry.
ka oh, yeah, please post your qualifications . ie: flight time, A/C flown, ratings. Just curious First off, I never said they were "poor excuses for pilots". Those are your words and not mine. Maybe there is something Freudian going on. My observation was made around 11:45 in the am at ATL in terminal D yesterday. It appears to me as if those pilots had no pride in their appearance and they did not present themselves well. I made no comments about their skills. Since you ask for my qualifications I'll be happy to tell you that I'm not just some PPL/IFR who couldn't get an airline job. I'm an ATP, CFI-MEI (22 1st time passes), and an A&P. I've logged more than 5 hours in over 45 different aircraft types and 6 different helicopters. I've been a single pilot 135 and flown charter for a year in a B200. I made more as a Asst. Chief 141 CFI than most 3rd year regional pilots made. Shiny Jet Syndrome, I don't has it. That's what I meant by saying pilots are their own worst enemies. "I'll fly for peanuts if I can fly a jet!!!" Well, I can't buy a hamburger with turbine time so I never fell for that Kit Darby crap. I refuse to whore myself out for poverty wages. No thanks, I'll go back to Alaska instead. Please spare me the "you just don't know" crap, I've been there and I know. I've flown 9 legs in a day where I was responsible for fueling the plane, changing the seat config, putting the PAX on and pulling them off in addition to slinging their bags. I've had some hard days but I always presented myself as a professional and never looked like I rolled out of bed straight into my airplane. There is no excuse for unkempt hair, a wrinkled shirt, and dirty shoes. None. I was offered a job while still in college with ASA but I declined since I wanted to finish my degree. Had I taken the job I'd have been one of the first furloughs when they hit not too long ago and I'd be flipping burgers. I never once criticized these pilots as professionals, I criticized them for not appearing as such. Tell me you can't tell the difference between a Delta 737 FO and the FO of a CRJ-200 at a glance. |
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I am not a commercial pilot, as I have said before I wasn't willing to go on food stamps to follow in my father and grandfathers footsteps. (Between the two of them, they have worked for, been laid off from, quit, or retired from every major airline except Pan Am, Delta and American.) Both my dad and grandfather struggled and fought for their jobs both in the military and in the civilian wold. Both have commented for the past decade that they don't know how or why the regional guys and junior 1st officers put up with the crappy compensation for what they go through.
Both have also commented that pilots are their worst enemies sometimes. No other industry that I know of aside from professional motor sports has employees that are willing to sacrifice so much for such little compensation. Regional jets are real jets. They do the same job as the old short 737s and DC-9s of old. But they pay like commuters. I hope that RJs aren't dictating the expectations and future pay scales for the airlines. We aren't seeing wage or union issues here. We are seeing pilots WILLING to work for peanuts. It isn't necessarily their fault, but its just what they are willing to do to fly. If they weren't willing to fly at those wages, you would see a wage increase to draw pilots. Supply & Demand dictate prices for any industry. My industry (oil & gas) is short of people with good technical experience now, and pays well. The 1980s SUCKED for my industry. The demand for people dropped, and people left in droves. We are only now getting staffed back up (as an industry) with experience. Demand dropped for pilots since ~2001, yet the supply has remained high. As an aviation brat and aviation junkie, I have slowly seen things change. General aviation is dead and the pilot "pipeline" is broken. There aren't many "struggling CFIs building hours" anymore. I can't even find a decent instructor to do basic instrument work anymore outside of metro areas. Good luck in finding a twin, not to mention a good MEI outside of the pilot mills around the country. Most outlying airports are dead except for the retired and wealthy plane owners. Nobody is training right now. Professional aviation is in a sad state. And I feel that esa17s observaion is fair. Many regional jet and commuter pilots do look bushed. Hell, I would look like ass if I worked like that for those pay grades. I look like ass sometimes after spending a few days at some oil or gas well for a few days overseeing a project. They aren't bad pilots, they are just being (and in some ways accepting) being beat down. 
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[quote.
I never once criticized these pilots as professionals, I criticized them for not appearing as such. Tell me you can't tell the difference between a Delta 737 FO and the FO of a CRJ-200 at a glance. [/quote] Their wings for one and perhaps their silver stripes? ka |
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Its easy to kick the Regional guy in the sac, and I won't excuse them from some blame, but at the end of the day, their negotiating position just plain sucks, and their payscales prove it.
The major pilot groups did little or nothing to prevent this from occurring (either via scope or contractual elements to prevent the lowest low baller operators from providing lift) and when push came to shove, the major pilot groups abandoned scope to save their senior guys, and watched the junior guys flying get poached by the regional. The major pilot groups had the negotiating power to do things like common seniority lists for the benefit of both groups, but in just about every negotiation, the major would sell out its regional brothers for a extra roll in their crew meal. |
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Quoted: First off, I never said they were "poor excuses for pilots". Those are your words and not mine. Maybe there is something Freudian going on. My observation was made around 11:45 in the am at ATL in terminal D yesterday. It appears to me as if those pilots had no pride in their appearance and they did not present themselves well. I made no comments about their skills. Since you ask for my qualifications I'll be happy to tell you that I'm not just some PPL/IFR who couldn't get an airline job. I'm an ATP, CFI-MEI (22 1st time passes), and an A&P. I've logged more than 5 hours in over 45 different aircraft types and 6 different helicopters. I've been a single pilot 135 and flown charter for a year in a B200. I made more as a Asst. Chief 141 CFI than most 3rd year regional pilots made. Shiny Jet Syndrome, I don't has it. That's what I meant by saying pilots are their own worst enemies. "I'll fly for peanuts if I can fly a jet!!!" Well, I can't buy a hamburger with turbine time so I never fell for that Kit Darby crap. I refuse to whore myself out for poverty wages. No thanks, I'll go back to Alaska instead. Please spare me the "you just don't know" crap, I've been there and I know. I've flown 9 legs in a day where I was responsible for fueling the plane, changing the seat config, putting the PAX on and pulling them off in addition to slinging their bags. I've had some hard days but I always presented myself as a professional and never looked like I rolled out of bed straight into my airplane. There is no excuse for unkempt hair, a wrinkled shirt, and dirty shoes. None. I was offered a job while still in college with ASA but I declined since I wanted to finish my degree. Had I taken the job I'd have been one of the first furloughs when they hit not too long ago and I'd be flipping burgers. I never once criticized these pilots as professionals, I criticized them for not appearing as such. Tell me you can't tell the difference between a Delta 737 FO and the FO of a CRJ-200 at a glance. Lol. So, you are basically a frustrated wannabe Regional pilot.  Thing is, you Don't know. You have no idea. (see my sigline) Almost every single Regional pilot is absolutely Militant about improving their contract. They vote to strike, and whenever possible, they vote with their feet. We are all frustrated with the decline of our profession at every level, however, there are many reasons for it, from deregulation, to the price of Oil, to Bad Management, to Unions, Governmental meddling, etc. What you are saying is akin to blaming the Jews for the Holocaust. Sure, you can make twisted rationalizations to support your claim, but you'll just end up sounding simple minded, biased and silly. Stop making excuses, go out and get the job. If you make it through training, you can work to improve it from the inside. |
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Sure, you can make twisted rationalizations to support your claim, but you'll just end up sounding simple minded, biased and silly. Hi there kettle. Quoted:
Lol. So, you are basically a frustrated wannabe Regional pilot. I'm not sure where you get that but whatever helps you sleep at night. I'll keep the job I have now thanks cause I can pay my bills and buy food. |
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Wow.
I guess my biggest problem with your position is a self disclosed admission that you've never walked in a Regional Pilot's shoes. That alone makes your comments null and void to me. If you really want to examine the issue, go back to 1998 and look at the offer by DAL to the Delta pilots of a pay rate on the 50 seat RJ aircraft. The DL pilots not only rejected the pay rate, but the aircraft as well. The reason being, was that they didn't want their squadron buddys having to fly the "Barbie Jet" as their first aircraft. The SJS that you mention was a fault of mainline pilots. There are other examples that I'll add later, but for now...lets just say, that when you've walked a mile in the shoes of a RJ driver, you might not be so critical. ka |
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You got to fly troops out of Iraq today! I'm going to guess that you work for either World Airways, Ryan or North American. I ask this because at Delta Airlines we have the contract for these aircraft. Yep, MD-11's for World. Stoped in Al Assad (80 miles w of Baghdad) for about 4 hrs. LOVE bringing troops home. ka |
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Oh, btw, to the OP,
I've done all that also. Single pilot 135, King Air 100 time, Lear time, Air Ambulance, Freight, Pax 135, etc. (I'm not an A&P though). Undersatnd that the junior guys anr NOT the ones who negotiate the contract. They are the ones who get screwed by it. Being junior at an airline used to be a temporary situation while the new guys where in class...not any more. If these guys whom you observed looked beat, they might have been. I've had some F/O's when I was there on reserve for over 2 years. It sure as hell isn't what they signed up for...and for you to criticize their appearance without knowing the whole story just pisses me off. I don't know you from a hill of beans...so it is unfair for me to hurl spears and jibes at you...just as unfair for you to throw shit at these guys who, I assume, got you safely home...say thank you for the ride and go on your way. No need to kick these guys on the way out the door. ka |
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Wow. I guess my biggest problem with your position is a self disclosed admission that you've never walked in a Regional Pilot's shoes. That alone makes your comments null and void to me. If you really want to examine the issue, go back to 1998 and look at the offer by DAL to the Delta pilots of a pay rate on the 50 seat RJ aircraft. The DL pilots not only rejected the pay rate, but the aircraft as well. The reason being, was that they didn't want their squadron buddys having to fly the "Barbie Jet" as their first aircraft. The SJS that you mention was a fault of mainline pilots. There are other examples that I'll add later, but for now...lets just say, that when you've walked a mile in the shoes of a RJ driver, you might not be so critical. ka USAirways was offered a flow down furlough clause by Piedmont, PSA and Allegheny in return for a single seniority list, a pref hiring clause, and consolidation of all Express flying scoped to the wholly owned subsidiaries. The Mainline group rejected this offer, for a variety of reasons. Its value seemed slightly more apparent by December 2001, at which time they not only jettisoned scope, they invalidated 70+ years of seniority based precedent to save their skins. Fucksticks. |
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I guess my biggest problem with your position is a self disclosed admission that you've never walked in a Regional Pilot's shoes. That alone makes your comments null and void to me. I understand that and can completely respect that but I am not by any means an ignorant party in the matter. I have watched as my friends spent years living in bunked crew quarters signing up for shower times on a white board. I've also seen 90% of them lose their jobs at Republic, Comair and ASA. Please see below for the rest of my response. Quoted:
Oh, btw, to the OP, I've done all that also. Single pilot 135, King Air 100 time, Lear time, Air Ambulance, Freight, Pax 135, etc. (I'm not an A&P though). Undersatnd that the junior guys anr NOT the ones who negotiate the contract. They are the ones who get screwed by it. Being junior at an airline used to be a temporary situation while the new guys where in class...not any more. If these guys whom you observed looked beat, they might have been. I've had some F/O's when I was there on reserve for over 2 years. It sure as hell isn't what they signed up for...and for you to criticize their appearance without knowing the whole story just pisses me off. I don't know you from a hill of beans...so it is unfair for me to hurl spears and jibes at you...just as unfair for you to throw shit at these guys who, I assume, got you safely home...say thank you for the ride and go on your way. No need to kick these guys on the way out the door. I have not once called anyone's qualifications into question, that was done to me and I am not randomly hurling jabs and spears at anyone. I know the industry and I can't imagine what the passengers think. You have to understand that I made the conscious decision to not become a RJ pilot. I think voting with your feet after you've signed on the dotted line is a bad way to go about it. If the younger guys simply held out for what they are worth the unions that are taking advantage of them would be forced to negotiate a higher wage. I also think it's a mistake to push airline flying as the only way to earn a living flying like many flight schools and colleges do. So many of these young kids see the jet and get so excited they don't think about what it's going to take to pay back that $75,000 flight training loan. I also don't think they understand that no one is looking out for them but them. Life isn't about what's owed to you, it's about what you can get and at of these guys are just giving it away. All of that said, I find it completely unacceptable to look unprofessional at work. There is no good reason not to have a comb in your brain bag and every hotel room I've ever been in had an iron. I don't think they are taking enough pride in themselves which hurts them when it comes time to look themselves in the mirror and demand better pay. |
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Couple of notes:
Don't need a comb, that went away years ago Yes I've been in a nice hotel room that didn"t have an iron After a 12 hour duty night including shoveling several tons of cargo, I might have scuffed shoes A week of night turns followed by a deadhead will find you drooling in your nice uniform in that nice seat back in steerage Try living in an airplane for 14 hours and tell me how great you'll look Give 'em a break, they're just trying to earn a living |