Posted: 7/7/2010 5:59:56 PM EDT
| The boss has changed from a Mustang, to putting money on a Phenom. I've flown one for 3 hours, and wanted to see if anyone else has flow one, or is typed in one. I want the good, bad and ugly. Opinions count, give em to me. Thanks. |
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Not typed, nor am I a pilot but I can say............your boss chose.........wisely!
Range, room, the ability to put a suitcase in it without taking gas off. Mustangs are made for owner pilots, and they are good at what they do. However if your boss wants a workin plane, a Mustang is not for him. The bad...........turn radius sucks, watch out for the leading edges during refueling (I'd get wing mats and keep them in the plane). |
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I was a HUGE fan of the Mustang, it took alot of work by Embraer to convince me on the Phenom.
As an A&P they will send parts directly to me for field replacement. Thats alot cheaper than flying a jet to a service center for a 200 dollar part. Seeing it first hand, its built to commercial standards, the Mustang a 421 with turbines. From a sales point of view, Cessna is coasting on a long ago built reputation. The seperate divisions (SE vs Citation) is silly, my boss got screwed by the Cessna Sales center that I used to work for when they bought the Corvallis, and Cessna Citation could care less. Embraer has been OUTSTANDING, they really work overtime to get me information and 1 phone call is all I need to get what I want. Not 3 and a guy that could care less that I am representing the guy that wants a jet yesterday, and will buy it cash if needed. I wasn't so happy about the no speed brakes/reversers, but after flying it, and knowing that they are going into Aspen with no issues, I am liking it so far. The Phenom really is built like a brick shit house. |
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I took a good look at the Phenom at Sun n Fun and it is definitely a cool plane. If aftermarket support is there, I say it is good to go. I don't understand the lack of speedbrakes/spoilers. It probably has a gear extended speed of 250 for those times when you need some extra drag. (Mustang gear speed is 250, also, but it has speed brakes).
As for the comment about the Mustang not being a good working plane, we replaced a Citation 501 with the Mustang and it has worked out well for us. It depends on the mission. My friends who fly Embraer products speak very highly of them. Brian |
Thanks, Pickle- got the link.  I've been single-pilot typed on the Phenom 100 since around Jan 2009. Went through Simuflite only a couple of weeks after certification and am probably getting close to 500 hours in the jet. I'd gladly answer anything I can about the plane. PM me if you'd like. We were a little apprehensive about the lack of speed brakes, TRs, or Ground Flaps (such as a CJ), but we haven't really needed them. Zero wind landing distances are usually around 2500-2900 feet at typical landing weights. Wet/contaminated runways are a different story though. As a general rule, if the runway is wet, we won't go in unless it's at least 5000 ft and grooved. Speed brakes would have been nice a time or two, but really, as long as you plan accordingly it works out alright. We operate in/out of Aspen frequently as well- was supposed to go on Friday but it's not on the schedule anymore. On a VFR day it's a piece of cake- configure early (before you descend over Red Table) and there's no issue. Unfortunately (fortunately??  ), I haven't had to shoot and approach in IMC yet. We did have some guys shoot an approach once in IFR and, even, though they had the runway a long ways out, they couldn't slow down and had to go missed and come around again. They got it on the second try. It definitely sounds like it's best to go VFR into ASE if you can. The trouble comes when you're not prepared for the Flap and Gear extension times... they take a LONG time to move, so it'll catch you off guard if you're not thinking ahead.The plane has been a great performer, especially during the Winter months, but it struggles in the Summer. The highest TAS I've seen was 402 kts (FL300-320, can't remember) during the cold months. In the mid-30s it would do around 380-390, and 370-380 about FL370 and up. Very few of us take it to FL410 anymore unless we've burned 2 hrs or so out of it. Once up there, however, I've seen burns around 480 lb/hr total @ around 350 KTAS (again, Winter). If you take off at Max Gross and go to 410, you'll be hanging around 312-320 KTAS. Ugh. With the warm months upon us, I'm only seeing around 360 kts at FL360 now and around 380 kts in the low 30s. The avionics (Garmin Prodigy) are wonderful. If you've ever worked a Garmin-anything, you'll take to it quickly. If you have no Garmin experience, you'll probably be tossing quarters into the Cuss Jar for a while.  The NEXRAD, SafeTaxi, Weather Charts (Winds Aloft, AIR/SIGMETs, Cloud Tops, Echo Tops, etc) kick ass! Having the ability to pull up weather for anywhere (that reports) in the country has, undoubtedly, saved a lot of money due to deviations.The Prodigy lacks a few features that would be helpful: you cannot program a User-Defined hold.  Supposedly this is coming soon, but who knows. It won't tell you ISA, either. There are a few other features missing, but nothing major. All airways, Hi and Low, are in the Prodigy. That's an improvement from the 530 that I used to fly on.The turning radius on the ground isn't great. You need AT LEAST an 80 ft wide runway to turn around on. We've never tried it on anything less than 100', but it takes a lot of that 100 so I'm guessing 80 would be very close. Everything is AUTO in the plane- you hardly touch a thing. The Vapor Cycle System moves a lot of air and cools the cabin like no other plane I've flown. This system has been a huge PITA in the past, but I think they've got the bugs worked out. Some planes still have Flap issues as well, but is usually a quick fix once MX gets there. The baggage space is absolutely HUGE. We've had four sets of golf clubs and four of the really big, bulky suitcases, as well as crew bags and other small bags loaded in back and still had room. You'd more than likely blow the weight (353 lb) before you cube out. That's all I can hit on now, gotta get back to TV with the wifey. Hope it helps. |
| WOW thanks for the great writeup. I have been out of town with the Guard and was able to read but a cell phone is a little small to write on. Pretty much everything I have read mirrors what you have said. I found out while I was on my trip that we indeed bought an Phenom, so I will have a good bit of first hand experiance in the upcomming weeks. I can't wait to get the type school started to get a chance to fly the plane more. I have a few hundred hours with the g-1000 so that part will be a smooth transition. I also get to do the MX course because I am an A&P so that will be a very nice thing to have. Good times indeed. |
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Quoted: WOW thanks for the great writeup. I have been out of town with the Guard and was able to read but a cell phone is a little small to write on. Pretty much everything I have read mirrors what you have said. I found out while I was on my trip that we indeed bought an Phenom, so I will have a good bit of first hand experiance in the upcomming weeks. I can't wait to get the type school started to get a chance to fly the plane more. I have a few hundred hours with the g-1000 so that part will be a smooth transition. I also get to do the MX course because I am an A&P so that will be a very nice thing to have. Good times indeed. Awesome, congrats! Their (CAE/Simuflite) course is pretty good. When I went through Initial the plane had only been certified for about 2 weeks. Needless to say, the program was all over the place. Every morning they were bringing in new Limitations/Specs packets... "Remember everything you memorized last night? Forget it. It's changed." LOL. All of our flight training was in the actual aircraft at AFW. PP-XOG S/N 004 was the plane we flew. Had Brazilian instructors from Embraer training us. Pretty interesting time. Anyway, back on track, their program is much, much better now. Went through Recurrent a couple of months back and I was impressed. They have some good guys in the course. If you get Loel for your checkride...you have your type, haha. Unless, of course, you royally screw the pooch! Let me know if you ever need tips or help. Oh yeah, just added my logbook up and I have about 500 PIC in the Phenom already. |
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Can't help you with the 100, but the 135, 140, and 145 are great machines.
Company policy is to NOT use the TR's that are installed and operational (WTF?) unless landing on a RW that is less than 7000'. The brakes work great and you have no problem making early exits. You do get used to it pretty quick. Now if the 100 has the same brakes or logic????? |
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I like the airplane. A modern, small, fast, efficient hot rod. However, as an operator of a number of foreign aircraft, I can say, without question, customer support and product support are always seriously lacking. I have to wonder what kind of "act of God" it would take to get a part from South America to Iowa overnight? Don't kid yourselves, these companies don't stock every possible part. They can't.
This goes hand in hand with why one purchases an aircraft in the first place, to save time. Our Eurocopter autopilot computer is going back to France for testing. That's 2 months!!!! The loaner is $30K! Absurd. Get used to hearing "WE NO HAVE". Or purchase an American product and get the support you need. With our Gulfstream, if the part's not in stock, it is possible to get them to pull a part out of a production aircraft and send it overnight. This happens with parts like lower wing access panels (not a common stocked item). Or maybe an internal wing tip casting that got damaged by running the wing into a fence pole...............
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Quoted: I like the airplane. A modern, small, fast, efficient hot rod. However, as an operator of a number of foreign aircraft, I can say, without question, customer support and product support are always seriously lacking. I have to wonder what kind of "act of God" it would take to get a part from South America to Iowa overnight? Don't kid yourselves, these companies don't stock every possible part. They can't. This goes hand in hand with why one purchases an aircraft in the first place, to save time. Our Eurocopter autopilot computer is going back to France for testing. That's 2 months!!!! The loaner is $30K! Absurd. Get used to hearing "WE NO HAVE". Or purchase an American product and get the support you need. With our Gulfstream, if the part's not in stock, it is possible to get them to pull a part out of a production aircraft and send it overnight. This happens with parts like lower wing access panels (not a common stocked item). Or maybe an internal wing tip casting that got damaged by running the wing into a fence pole............... Just because the Phenom is foreign made does not mean it has to be an issue regarding maintenance. We operate several Phenoms and I don't recall our MX guys ever having to wait for parts to come from Brazil. The Phenoms had absolutely horrible VCS systems right out of the factory- I brought one back from Brazil and the air conditioning quit after 30 minutes into the first leg (17 hrs back to the States). Every Phenom we brought back needed a new part, but guess what, the company that makes the system is in Oklahoma, only a couple hour's drive for us. (The VCS systems seem to have been updated by now, no more issues) The planes also had a lot of flap issues in the beginning. Our MX department has a re-rigging tool, so we can fix ourselves. That said, we didn't have the tool in the beginning. I had an issue on the road where we broke in the afternoon/early evening. Obviously, no one could get to us due to the time of day, but EMB had a crew airline up the next day and they had us running in 30-45 mins. There are also several service centers around the country as well- support IS out there. I used to fly a Cessna Caravan several years ago. I broke down at ICT, Wichita Mid-Continent Airport. Right where the friggin' thing is made! I had a brake lock up and the entire assembly got FUBAR'd. You'd think, being within walking distance of their factory, they'd have a part. Nope! Had to special order a part from who knows where. I have a friend who is a mechanic at the Citation Service Center. Just the other day he was telling me they needed a valve for a plane, but they didn't have one. They had to bring one in from some other state. Cujet, I completely understand where you're coming from. Not trying to knock you at all. Just simply saying that Embraer has a good support system in place, from what I've seen anyway. Our MX department handles our issues now, but in the beginning they worked very closely with Embraer and their suppliers, and it seemed to be a decent working relationship. Even though a product is domestically made, it doesn't mean they'll have the parts and support either. |
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Embraer even moved the parts inventory warehouse to the same city as the UPS main hub, so that parts can go over night with 1 plane ride instead of 2.
As a MX guy as a pilot Embraer has impressed me so far, they really thought out alot of stuff. They started new in a modern world. Cessna still has some old time bad habits. |
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Actually, I'd guess that Embraer parts are as easy to come by as anything else. EMB is an integrator, not a designer like Gulfstream. Gulfstream will build things practically from the ground up to fit their specific requirements, where EMB decided that buying existing components was the way to go. This wasn't without its inherent drawbacks...the 145 family and the 170s early on, had some awful integration issues well past IOC. This isn't a slam on either company, just an illustration of their different philosophies. |
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Off the shelf is a blessing and curse. I perfer off the shelf stuff though because it seems that you can get vendors to work with you easily, vs having some wierd one of 5 part that they never made a spare for.
I found out today that I leave for CAE Dallas on the 16th for my type. I can't wait, I'm such an excited noob. |