Posted: 9/10/2007 7:31:21 AM EDT
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Our water is TERRIBLE. It is starting to ruin our clothes, our brand new freaking dish washer is developing a rust stain in it, the stainless steel kitchen sink has a nice orange glow to it, and on and on. Mostly though I am just tried of hearing about my fiance's hair looking orange. I realize all of this can be remedied but I would rather take care of the solution not bandade it. The softer appears to be eating the salt I feed it (using the rust stuff, green bag) so I don't know what the problem is. It is currently set to cycle every 300 gallons. Is there a filter that could be clogged or something? Thanks The water.  The softener     |
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very first thing I AM NOT A EXPERT IN THIS! i can only tell you what i have run into and give you more questions. first thing is how old is the "beads" in the system?? how much water are you using a day? my personnal experiance: i have a iron reading that is off the scales in tests. i replaced the softener about 4-5 years ago. i also installed a med. sized 20 micron filter BEFORE softener and found i now backwash every 5 days vs. every 2-3 days before installing. i am planning on installing a larger "prefilter" at some point. hope this helps. |
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A little hard to see just what your equipment is from the pics, and your description. I see you're on either well, or spring water from the pressure tank, gauges, etc. This source water can really be a challenge, I know from vast experience trying to get the water soft, while at the same time trying to get rid of the iron content, and sulpher in a house I used to own. First thing I would do is get a water softner test kit if you don't already have one. Make sure you get a genuine test kit, where you take a sample of water, add a purple powder to the water, then start adding a clear chemical one drop at a time, till the water turns from purple, back to clear. You count the number of drops of the clear chemical, and if it takes say 2 drops of the chemical to turn the water to clear again, then you've got 2 grains of hardness (this is good). Anything above 5-6 drops, and your softner probably isn't working to it's full capacity. I went thru this long description, as some water softner companies are selling "test kits" which are noting but a premeasured beaker, and a soap type solution, and are a total waste of money. Get what I described above, don't settle for less. Assuming your water is soft, you can try adding some "Iron Out" to the salt bed / brine solution. This is a powder that you can generally find at good hardware stores. Just pour a goodly amount in the salt bed. Then backwash the softner twice, back to back. This is really a band-aid type fix, as it sounds like you've got a lot of iron in your water. Depending on how often you're set up for automatic backwash of the softner will determine how often you have to add the "Iron Out" to the salt bed. The resin beads don't last forever, so if they've been in there for quite a while, you may have to replace them. A good water softner company should be able to give you the average life of the resin beads. If this proves unsuccessful, you can try adding an inline chlorinator to your system. This injects chlorine into you household water, killing bacteria, removing some sulphur and some iron, if I remember correctly. You'll have to experiment with the amount of chlorine to inject, as you only want enough to do the job. Chlorine is hard on your system components, and can shorten the life you your resin beads. When you can barely smell the chlorine when you draw water from the tap, it's set about right. If none of this works, about the only thing left is a dedicated iron removal filter. From your pics, you've got an extra piece of equipment that I can't identify, and it may be an iron removal filter. It's the piece that you have the scissors laying on top of. do you know what this piece of equipment is? The piece of equipment with the black plastic head should be your softner (with the resin beads), and the short stubbie blue plastic piece should be your salt bed / brine tank. If the piece with the scissors is in fact an iron removal filter, it's obvisouly not working properly. You do have to add a chemical to these periodically. It's "magneisum phosphate" of something named pretty close to that. Sorry, but it's been quite a few years since I've fooled with this stuff. Anyway, it's a purple powder that you have to add, and it stains anything it comes in contact with very badly. Any good softner supply store will know the exact name of the chemical. This also has to backwash IIRC, set on about the same backwash schedule as your softner. I've listed these in order of expense. "Iron Out" being the least expensive (just a few bucks), with the iron removal filter being the most expensive (several hundred bucks). If you can positively identify exactly what gear you've got down there, and repost that info, may be able to come up with some more info for you. There are other ways to soften water, and remove other unwanted minerals, etc. One of them being RO, or reverse osmosis. I'm not familiar with these types of systems, other than knowing that the water passes thru a membrane, and that's how it does its job. With the more traditional ion exchange type systems (which is what you appear to have), I would try to get it in working order, because your alternatives are going to be costly. I was never in the water business, so maybe someone that is, or has been in that business can correct me if I've made some errors here, or shed some additional light on your problem. All my experience comes from having to work on my own system for 10 years, and I sold that property quite a few years ago. Very long post I know, but felt it was needed to give you some proper information. Best of luck!  ETA: you can run some "Iron Out" thru your dishwasher, and washing machine, and it will get the rust stains out of them. Don't know how much to tell you to add, as again it's been too long since I've dealt with this stuff. |
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Thank you so much for that explanation! I know nothing about this system. At worst it was installed in 92 and at best some time in between then and now. Judging by the work the previous owners did, they didn't do anything to the softener and if they did, it was half-ass. According to the heating and air guy that I asked about it while he was looking at the furnace, (he seemed to know a little about softeners) the second take is a separate softener tank. According to him, the house runs off one tank while the other treats. I don't know if that is true but it is the best info I have so far. The two tanks seem to be directly connected so it made sense to me. Question: How full should the salt tank be with salt? I've been putting a bag or two in every week or two. The highest the salt gets it to the top of the water. Should I be filling the MOFO up to the top? Thanks for all the help. I really don't want to spend another $60 for a service call if I don't have to. $60/hour . . . . I am in the wrong line of work!  Thanks ETA: I found this, it is a two tank system to supply constant soft water. "Dual-Tank Water Softeners When a softener is recharging, it is designed to disconnect from the water system. Large families or those who live where water is particularly hard--with more than 10 GPG, for example--may want to consider a unit with two resin tanks. With these units, when one tank is in use, the other is regenerating. As a result, you never run out of softened water." It either isn't working or I am not putting enough salt in it. |
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Three years ago I moved into a house with a well and water conditioning equipment. I didn’t know shit about any of it. I asked the realtor who was the best water system guy in the area. I called the guy and paid him to walk me through the entire system from the well head to the kitchen faucet, and everything in between. I took lots of notes and learned a great deal about operation, maintenance, diagnosis, and system vulnerabilities. Money well spent. His company has had my business ever since. Something to consider... |
Oh, where to start.  I can see a two tank system maybe if: 1. the house is very, very large, like 3.5K sq. st or larger, OR 2. everybit of the water on the entire property is softened including the outside taps, AND a sprinkler and / or swimming pool system if the property has one. On a good installation all the outside taps are left hard, with one or two left soft for car washing etc. If the property has a sprinkler and / or pool and it's soft, that's nothing but laziness on the part of the installer of the softener who didn't want to take the time to "split" the system. These dual tank systems were probably started by an unethical dealer in the area to put more money in his pocket, then other dealers saw how easy it was to make the extra profit, and it probably just sort of "caught on" in your area. What you've got to understand is when the hard water passes thru the resin, the minerals that make the water hard are drawn out of the water, and attach themselves to the resin. When the resin can't take any more minerals, it's time to regenerate (or backwash). The salt water brine knocks the minerals back off the resin, then rinses the salt water out of the resin tank and down the drain, and you're back to fully soft water. The reason 99% of the people can get by with one tank, is they just set their softener to backwash every night (or whatever it takes to always have soft water), picking a time of night when no water will be used, say 3:00AM. So that every morning when they get up they have a "fresh" tank delivering soft water. In other words the ONLY reason you would need two tanks is if you're using so much water thru the system that one tank gets hard in less than 24 hours. Simply put, you just adjust the backwash cycle to your water usage. More likely the company that sold and installed the softener just plain sold the property owner something they didn't need. EXAMPLE: my house was 2.5K sq. ft. and I just had one tank, and I had all the soft water I wanted, and I had 20 grains of hardness before treating. There were four of us living in the house, and I had it set to backwash every other night, and as I said, I had plenty of soft water. All water inside the house was softened, and all the water outside was left hard. So, back to your system. First thing you've got to do is get the test kit I mentioned to see if your softener is working 100%, not at all, or somewhere in between. Only test the cold water as you'll get a more true reading. Hot water is always softer than cold, as the process of heating water in a water heater will naturally pull out some of the minerals that make water hard. Try to test right after the system has backwashed, and test from about 3 different taps, and take the average. Ideally you'll hope to only have to add one drop of the chemical in the kit which indicates 0-1 grains of hardness. Go ahead and test ONE hot water source, and see what that reads, keeping that reading seperate. The only reason I suggest this, is I have seen systems where the homeowner left a lot of the inside cold water taps hard which I think is ignorant, but I have seen it done. Anyone that has a softener needs this kit anyway to be able to monitor their system thru periodic checks. When a softener fails, it's kind of like the shocks on your car, they usually just don't fail one day, but rather slowly stop working over a period of time. It's also the best way to keep your dealer "honest", as without the kit, how do you know the degree of hardness of your water? BTW, there are a LOT of schlock dealers out there, so proceed carefully. Try to get recommendations from friends / relatives on a dealer that charges a fair price, shows up on time, and corrects the problem! Did you just aquire the property, or have these iron systems just started showing up gradually over a period of time? It does sound like your brine level may be set a little high (this is the water in the salt tank). This is adjustable. Depending on how often the system is set to backwash and the water level in that tank determines how often you have to add salt. It sounds like you're having to add salt a little too often, but you've got two resin tanks, so that doubles the salt usage. Just guessing I'm going to say the water in the brine tank should be about 8". That should be enough brine to regenerate the resin. If the water level is a lot higher than that you'll naturally use more salt. If you can figure out how to adjust the water level in the brine tank, adjust it for about the 8" level. This is usually accomplished by adjusting a float in the brine tank up, or down. If you're close to the 8" level, I wouldn't worry too much about that just now. DO NOT fill the brine tank full of salt till you get it working properly. Water softeners are a wonderful thing, and once you get it straightened out, you'll love it. They do require maintainence however. If you're reasonably handy, I would try to get to the point to where you can do most of the service yourself. That's what I did. There is a learning curve however, so you will probably need a GOOD dealer to get things squared away initially. I would also try to aquire the owners manual for the softener if you don't already have it. Get the kit, do the hardness tests, and report back with the results, and we'll go from there. |
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We bought the house a couple of months ago. It was built back in 92. We think the softener is original. I agree that the two tank system is probably over kill and was definately "sold" to them. I got a couple of tests (one set free) from Lowes. The one tests showed 25+ of hardness. I haven't done the other one.  I also checked the water level in the brine tank. I would say it was between 7-10 inches.  I also checked the salt and it was almost gone. That is probably the latest rustiness and hardness increase however it is an ongoing issue. The people from Culigan are coming out for their test and sales pitch. I plan on getting the explanation that someone stated above but for free.  I added some salt, will let it cycle a couple of times and see that what the hardness is then. I hope we don't have to buy another one yet. |
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If the softener was installed when the house was built, and the resin has never been replaced, it's probably shot, though that's JMO. 15 years is a long time for the resin to hold up. I'm not much of a Culligan fan, but that's a personal thing with me, and in your area you may not have too many choices. I feel like they try to oversell the customer, and I'm not that fond of their equipment. With water softeners, generally "less is more". By that I mean usually the simpler the softener (mechanically), the more trouble free it will be in the long run. I can tell from your pics that your present system is a fairly simple one, so it shouldn't be too difficult to repair provided parts are available. You know that the system is partially working, as it is regenerating, pulling brine, and replacing the brine. You know this because it is using salt. BTW, I think your brine level presently is fine for the time being, so I wouldn't fret over that. So your lack of soft water could be something as simple as a stuck, or leaking valve, plugged orfice, etc. I've seen the system in my old house quit working because an orfice about the size of a pencil lead was plugged. Or as I said before the resin may be shot, or there may be no resin at all left in the tank, as in "gone". This happens, and it wouldn't surprise me if the resin is gone after 15 years, leaving you with an empty tank. One thing I would definately do is to install some type of pre-filter ahead of the softener, whether you repair the one you have, or get a new one. Wells can pull sand, or other foreign matter and there's no sense in letting that get into the softener, and on into your household water supply. I installed an inexpensive prefilter that used the replaceable wound polyester filters. Get one with a clear case so you can tell visually when it's time to replace it. If the economics show that it would be less expensive to replace the unit, I would look at the most mechanically simple unit within their product line. Water softeners really aren't very complicated at all in their simplest form. I would stay far, far away from all the "do-dads" like touch pads, and automation, etc. It's not needed, it drives up the initial cost, and it's more parts to replace when they go bad. All anyone needs is a system to send untreated water thru the resin, pushing soft water into the household water supply, and to backwash properly when it's supposed to. Please keep us posted on your progress. |
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Take a look at Lifesource systems. I've had one for 10 years and it's the best. Before, we had terrible water, etched glasses, all the bad crap. With it we have: -clean dishes -cleaner clothes -less soap used for everything -hair feels better -pipes don't gunk up with calcium |
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After adding salt last night it just so happened to cycle about an hour after that. I checked this morning and it had in fact used up some of the salt. The water seemed to taste a little better, wasn't so cloudy nor did it have such a red color. Once I checked that I popped open the $10 test kit that I purchased from Lowes yesterday. Chlorine was 0 ph was 240 Alkalinity was 9 Hardness was still 25 I figure if I cycle it once more I am assured to have softened water in both tanks. Once it has been cycled one more time I will check again and report back with the results. I like the idea of the unit being mechanically simple. Hopefully this one will last a bit longer but if not oh well. Once again, thanks for all the help! |
That's what I do too. Also, periodically clean out the salt tank because sediment builds up in the bottom of the tank and can clog the water valve. As far as the dual tank systems go, I have one made by Kinetico. The tanks automatically cycle back and forth so you always have soft water. The equipment works well but the Kinetco service people suck. Do all of your own maintainance, it's really easy. My neighboors have single tank systems and they all seem to work just as well as mine. Use good quality salt and change filters on schedule. |
I'm betting the second test was also 25 grains of hardness (or very close to that) .What say ye  .
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I ran out of hardness test so I don't have results from that however I did run the rest of the tests. I expect the results would have been the same. Copper 0 Nitrate 0 Nitrite 0 Iron 0-.8 The Culligan sales rep came out last night. Bypassing the softener he came up with the following: Harness 32-33 Iron 3.2 With the softener in the system (bypass valve shut off) Hardness 12 Iron 1.8 Good news is that if I keep on top of the salt, it does work to about 70% of what it is supposed to. Bad news is that it isn't working as good as it should and does probably need to be replaced. A bag of salt a week is ridicules and even when it is functioning, it is still passing iron and harness. Naturally the Culligan guy tried to sell me their $2000 Gold model. I think we are going to opt for a cheaper model. I'd rather buy 2 softeners for $1000 than 1 for $2000 given the same time period. Does anyone have any suggestions on sub $600 softeners? Thanks for all help. |
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It is done! It took a lot longer than I thought it would but what else is new. I didn't have any major issues it just took longer to sweat the pipes than I thought it would. See above for what we had. Getting the old softener apart was VERY easy. The floor got a little wet but not too bad.  I drained some of the water and found out what the media looks like.  Out with the old . . .   . . . . in with the new.   After connecting everything up here is the final result.  The plumbing/placement isn't exactly what my plans were but at 11pm I didn't have much of a choice.  The difference in the water is AMAZING!!!!! My fiancee is much happier!During this process I also drained part of the hot water tank to get any sediment out and tried to adjust the pressure tank. Apparently I have a couple of leeks at my PVC fittings at 80 psi.  I can't get the water pressure where I want it (40-60). If anyone knows anything about adjusting it please look at my water pressure thread and help me.Thanks for all the assistance! I will test the water tonight and report back with results. I expect a big improvement in hardness and iron.
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