[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Replacing Subfloor? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 12/29/2014 5:08:39 PM EDT
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Wednesday I sign the paperwork for a new (to me) house. It's been a long process due to it being from an estate, but at least I'm seeing light at the end of the tunnel. Anyway, we want to replace all of the flooring in the house and I'm not sure how to go about it. It appears to have 5/8" particle board as the underlayment. I think this needs to be removed, but I don't how far to go.
The floor joists are on 1' centers. Then there are 1"x12"s running diagonal to the floor joists. On top of there appears to be a layer of black cloth. Finally, on top of that, is the particle board. I assume I can just rip out the particle board, run some new screws into the 1"x12"s, then put down a new underlayment. I just don't know what to use. We may put down laminate right now and upgrade to engineered wood room by room as our budget allows at a later date. |
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Forget the 1x6 comment
You probably have 1x6 tongue and groove on top of floorjoists. I would rip out the particle and do 3/4 ply glue and screw, then you can do hardwood flooring over that or do some more ply and carpet over. I think the ley is tofigure out your finished floor thickness then work down from thereto ensure that your finished floors all run same height. |
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I ripped out some rotted flooring at my buddies. Home was a 1950s or so build. The room must have been an old bathroom. The subfloor was 1/2 and there was that 1x6 underneath. It was rotted in areas also. We were going to pull it all out till we got to the joists. But found that the 1x6 was ran under the walls bottom plate. We decided to patch the rotted 1x6 and then do a 1/2 tongue and groove over that.
We kept it 1/2 since he was going with a hardwood floating and there would have been a step to get into the bedroom. This way we matched up pretty close to the existing hardwood in the hallway. |
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Why not use tongue and groove plywood rather than OSB? |
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VaFarmBoy is correct, the particle board underlayment won't go under the walls. Builders used particle board under carpet and once you pull up your old flooring you will be able to see where it ends at the walls.
I put hardwood floors in my old house and I ripped all of the underlayment out and put down 23/32" plywood to provide a good nailing surface. I used a catspaw to pull the old nails out of the underlayment and removed each piece at a time. If your house is built with a crawlspace, there will be a vapor barrier between the subfloor and the underlayment which is usually tar paper so you won't be able to glue the new underlayment down. I screwed the underlayment down and dealt with any uneven floor areas while putting it down. I used plywood rather than OSB because I was installing nail down hardwood floors and I didn't know if the OSB would hold the nails as well as plywood. After further reading it seems as though OSB will hold as well as plywood. Not a pro so YMMV. |
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If it were my house, I would just use the t&g osb. Just do a good job on the glue and screw, making sure to hit the joists. Just use a circular saw if the old subfloor goes under the walls. Instead of using a circular saw to cutout particle board subfloor, I use a toekick saw from Harbor Freight. It is inexpensive, highly effective, and fast, BUT you damn well better be on your game when you use a toekick saw. When you get kickback from a toekick saw, it is nasty and you need to handle it. It *is* manageable but you cannot let your mind wander when using that tool. On the upside, the tool makes the job very fast and cuts the subfloor flush with the wall (or sole plate). To my amateur knowledge there is nothing as fast or effective for that job. If you go that route you also need to have an oscillating tool to cut the corners becase the toekick saw cannot get all the way to a corner and cannot start a cut from a corner. I got a cheap oscillating tool from HF and it is the perfect companion tool. |
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Last one of these threads the OP posted a picture of the subfloor gone from the living room and open to the basement. Never heard from him again after that. I remember that one. He's probably still working on it. IIRC, joists were set in stone foundation too. |
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if you are using a crowbar and taking that shit out in chunks WEAR EYE PROTECTION. I didnt and ended up with a shitload of splinters in my eye and a scratched cornea. Quoted:
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Thanks guys. I hope to start ripping stuff up on the 1st. if you are using a crowbar and taking that shit out in chunks WEAR EYE PROTECTION. I didnt and ended up with a shitload of splinters in my eye and a scratched cornea. Excellent point. I have been doing some subfloor replacement recently and would like to add to the list of safety equipment: 1. Eye protection 2. Steel toed shoes. If you don't own any and have not looked at them for a long time you would be surprised how easy it is to find steel toed shoes that look like athletic shoes. Check amazon. To elaborate on the reason for steel toed shoes, whenever you are moving panels, e.g., plywood or drywall, you tend to manipulate the panels with your feet as well as your hands, which *will* injure your toes without protective shoes or boots. There is also the obvious hazard of dropping panels, which can weigh 60 lbs. or more, on your feet. If you don't already have a pair, get some. You will be very happy about it later. 3. Hearing protection when using power tools. 4. Dust masks 5. A six-pack of work gloves |
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Quoted: Excellent point. I have been doing some subfloor replacement recently and would like to add to the list of safety equipment: 1. Eye protection 2. Steel toed shoes. If you don't own any and have not looked at them for a long time you would be surprised how easy it is to find steel toed shoes that look like athletic shoes. Check amazon. To elaborate on the reason for steel toed shoes, whenever you are moving panels, e.g., plywood or drywall, you tend to manipulate the panels with your feet as well as your hands, which *will* injure your toes without protective shoes or boots. There is also the obvious hazard of dropping panels, which can weigh 60 lbs. or more, on your feet. If you don't already have a pair, get some. You will be very happy about it later. 3. Hearing protection when using power tools. 4. Dust masks 5. A six-pack of work gloves Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Thanks guys. I hope to start ripping stuff up on the 1st. if you are using a crowbar and taking that shit out in chunks WEAR EYE PROTECTION. I didnt and ended up with a shitload of splinters in my eye and a scratched cornea. Excellent point. I have been doing some subfloor replacement recently and would like to add to the list of safety equipment: 1. Eye protection 2. Steel toed shoes. If you don't own any and have not looked at them for a long time you would be surprised how easy it is to find steel toed shoes that look like athletic shoes. Check amazon. To elaborate on the reason for steel toed shoes, whenever you are moving panels, e.g., plywood or drywall, you tend to manipulate the panels with your feet as well as your hands, which *will* injure your toes without protective shoes or boots. There is also the obvious hazard of dropping panels, which can weigh 60 lbs. or more, on your feet. If you don't already have a pair, get some. You will be very happy about it later. 3. Hearing protection when using power tools. 4. Dust masks 5. A six-pack of work gloves My husband and I both like Mechanix gloves for everything that requires work gloves. He has a pair dedicated to working on the cars, and a pair for everything else. They're great. |
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My husband and I both like Mechanix gloves for everything that requires work gloves. He has a pair dedicated to working on the cars, and a pair for everything else. They're great. Quoted:
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Thanks guys. I hope to start ripping stuff up on the 1st. if you are using a crowbar and taking that shit out in chunks WEAR EYE PROTECTION. I didnt and ended up with a shitload of splinters in my eye and a scratched cornea. Excellent point. I have been doing some subfloor replacement recently and would like to add to the list of safety equipment: 1. Eye protection 2. Steel toed shoes. If you don't own any and have not looked at them for a long time you would be surprised how easy it is to find steel toed shoes that look like athletic shoes. Check amazon. To elaborate on the reason for steel toed shoes, whenever you are moving panels, e.g., plywood or drywall, you tend to manipulate the panels with your feet as well as your hands, which *will* injure your toes without protective shoes or boots. There is also the obvious hazard of dropping panels, which can weigh 60 lbs. or more, on your feet. If you don't already have a pair, get some. You will be very happy about it later. 3. Hearing protection when using power tools. 4. Dust masks 5. A six-pack of work gloves My husband and I both like Mechanix gloves for everything that requires work gloves. He has a pair dedicated to working on the cars, and a pair for everything else. They're great. I've wondered for a long time why Mechanix gloves are so popular. Guess I'll order a pair and find out for myself--thanks for the recommendation. |
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The particle board is underlayment, not subfloor
The 1x6 is the subfloor and at 12" oc plenty strong I would take out the particle board only if necessary due to height Most engineered wood can be installed perpendicular to the joists right on top of the 1x6 On jobs I need additional height or thickness I trowel down pl premium glue, install 1/4-1/2" plywood and staple with 1/4" staples long enough to penetrate the subfloor 2" around all the edges and 4" in the entire field after screwing down any spongy places in in the subfloor and ring shank nails everywhere else in the subfloor |
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The particle board is underlayment, not subfloor The 1x6 is the subfloor and at 12" oc plenty strong I would take out the particle board only if necessary due to height Most engineered wood can be installed perpendicular to the joists right on top of the 1x6 On jobs I need additional height or thickness I trowel down pl premium glue, install 1/4-1/2" plywood and staple with 1/4" staples long enough to penetrate the subfloor 2" around all the edges and 4" in the entire field after screwing down any spongy places in in the subfloor and ring shank nails everywhere else in the subfloor Particle board is horrendously subject to damage by moisture. I suggest getting rid of it but I have a very strong bias against using particle board for any type of flooring application that is not temporary. I recently put down some 1/4" sanded plywood underlayment using a pneumatic stapler with narrow crown (1/4") staples. Worked like a champ. Had I done my due diligence beforehand, though, I would have bought SurePly instead of TriPly underlayment because the SurePly has the fastener pattern already marked on it--a real plus for the DIYer. |
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Quoted: I've wondered for a long time why Mechanix gloves are so popular. Guess I'll order a pair and find out for myself--thanks for the recommendation. Quoted: Quoted: My husband and I both like Mechanix gloves for everything that requires work gloves. He has a pair dedicated to working on the cars, and a pair for everything else. They're great. I've wondered for a long time why Mechanix gloves are so popular. Guess I'll order a pair and find out for myself--thanks for the recommendation. I like them because the fingers fit much more closely to my actual fingers, with little extra fabric. With the Mechanix gloves, I can hold nails or screws and hammer/screw them into place. I can open paint cans, roll paint, use bypass pruners, use a chainsaw, etc... Regular women's gloves are way too loose, making it unsafe or unwieldy to do those tasks. |
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Why not use tongue and groove plywood rather than OSB? Quoted:
Why not use tongue and groove plywood rather than OSB? This won't warp like plywood and it's cheaper and better IMO (as long as it never gets wet) |
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Your subfloor is the 1x6 (should be T&G) that runs on the diagonal. The old school way. Replace it with plywood. AdvanTech FTW 
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Your subfloor is the 1x6 (should be T&G) that runs on the diagonal. The old school way. Replace it with plywood. AdvanTech FTW Pain edge 1x was very standard for a long time for sub-floors. Run on the diagonal for both increased racking resistance of the platform structure and so hardwood floor strips could be run in either direction in each room. Parallel to the long dimension of a room was sort of 'standard.' It made a great looking floor when long clear floor strips existed. Plywood is acceptable but rarely laid at 45 degrees meaning anout half the layers are parallel to the joists. Old farts new something. Unless the 1x has rot damage leave it alone. It is a lot easier to pull out a damaged area and repair than cutting into plywood sheets. The gaps eliminate any chance of buckling from moisture changes. If you work on old enough places the 1x may not be surfaced on all four sides. |
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All the carpet and padding is up. Going to start tearing out the kitchen and bathroom flooring tonight. If you have 12 inch pine leave it unless it is rotted. Replace just the bad spots. Add some 1-1/2 inch screws (one per board between the nails, and NOT drywall screws). McFeeley's for actual wood screws. Drywall screws are hardened and break instead of bending. Remove any nails sticking up after adding screws and replace with new screws. |
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If you have 12 inch pine leave it unless it is rotted. Replace just the bad spots. Add some 1-1/2 inch screws (one per board between the nails, and NOT drywall screws). McFeeley's for actual wood screws. Drywall screws are hardened and break instead of bending. Remove any nails sticking up after adding screws and replace with new screws. Quoted:
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All the carpet and padding is up. Going to start tearing out the kitchen and bathroom flooring tonight. If you have 12 inch pine leave it unless it is rotted. Replace just the bad spots. Add some 1-1/2 inch screws (one per board between the nails, and NOT drywall screws). McFeeley's for actual wood screws. Drywall screws are hardened and break instead of bending. Remove any nails sticking up after adding screws and replace with new screws. I used some torx head screws when I built my deck. I assume that is the type you are referring to? So, rip up all the particle board. Put a 1-1/2" screw in each board. New felt paper. Then put 5/8" OSB on top with screws every 6"? |
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Holy crap, just thinking here, you saying 1200 1-1/2" screws plus another 2400 screws for the OSB assuming a 1200 sq ft house. That's a lot of screwing. Get a drill driver that releases on depth NOT torque. Unless you are planning to do the whole thing at one sitting just work a room at a time. You can even get 'stand up' drivers with paper collated screws. What 'socket' style they use is totally secondary. Cross recess works very well for depth driving (why it is used on drywall screws). If you use screws leave out the mastic (glue). It is like the minor screw savings on drywall using mastic. Right up til you have to do a repair. Now the opening must be sistered to get a surface for the patch. It only make further work that much more difficult. Plywood beats OSB for strength and stiffness, though that is not likely an issue with your joist spacing. If the joist span is at all bouncy plywood stiffens the floor better. I have torn out so much OSB over the years I never use it. 35+ years of restoration and renovation. If you are supplying the labor you can afford better materials. Take small enough bites so you can feel like you are making progress. |
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I finally had some time to get started on this project. I got the particle board removed from all rooms but the kitchen, laundry, and one bath. A contractor is coming today to hopefully finish removing everything. Next, I'll get the trim removed and pull any remaining nails. After that, cleanup and removal of the felt paper.
I like the idea of running a screw through each existing pine board. Now comes the time to decide what to put on top of the sub floor. |
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I finally had some time to get started on this project. I got the particle board removed from all rooms but the kitchen, laundry, and one bath. A contractor is coming today to hopefully finish removing everything. Next, I'll get the trim removed and pull any remaining nails. After that, cleanup and removal of the felt paper. I like the idea of running a screw through each existing pine board. Now comes the time to decide what to put on top of the sub floor. 
Good going! What will the contractor be removing? |
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Good going! What will the contractor be removing? Quoted:
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I finally had some time to get started on this project. I got the particle board removed from all rooms but the kitchen, laundry, and one bath. A contractor is coming today to hopefully finish removing everything. Next, I'll get the trim removed and pull any remaining nails. After that, cleanup and removal of the felt paper. I like the idea of running a screw through each existing pine board. Now comes the time to decide what to put on top of the sub floor.
Good going! What will the contractor be removing? kitchen, laundry, and one bath |
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kitchen, laundry, and one bath Quoted:
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I finally had some time to get started on this project. I got the particle board removed from all rooms but the kitchen, laundry, and one bath. A contractor is coming today to hopefully finish removing everything. Next, I'll get the trim removed and pull any remaining nails. After that, cleanup and removal of the felt paper. I like the idea of running a screw through each existing pine board. Now comes the time to decide what to put on top of the sub floor.
Good going! What will the contractor be removing? kitchen, laundry, and one bath What I was wondering was will the contractor be removing only the subfloor or doing more extensive work. It was the "...finish removing everything" part of your post that got me curious. |
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What I was wondering was will the contractor be removing only the subfloor or doing more extensive work. It was the "...finish removing everything" part of your post that got me curious. Quoted:
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I finally had some time to get started on this project. I got the particle board removed from all rooms but the kitchen, laundry, and one bath. A contractor is coming today to hopefully finish removing everything. Next, I'll get the trim removed and pull any remaining nails. After that, cleanup and removal of the felt paper. I like the idea of running a screw through each existing pine board. Now comes the time to decide what to put on top of the sub floor.
Good going! What will the contractor be removing? kitchen, laundry, and one bath What I was wondering was will the contractor be removing only the subfloor or doing more extensive work. It was the "...finish removing everything" part of your post that got me curious. Sorry. The particle board is all I am having anyone do for me right now. I got a few quotes, but plan to do most everything else myself. I may hire someone to do drywall though. |
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Just saw this thread today, and wanted to throw a couple recommendations out there...
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Thanks guys. I hope to start ripping stuff up on the 1st. if you are using a crowbar and taking that shit out in chunks WEAR EYE PROTECTION. I didnt and ended up with a shitload of splinters in my eye and a scratched cornea. Excellent point. I have been doing some subfloor replacement recently and would like to add to the list of safety equipment: 1. Eye protection 2. Steel toed shoes. If you don't own any and have not looked at them for a long time you would be surprised how easy it is to find steel toed shoes that look like athletic shoes. Check amazon. To elaborate on the reason for steel toed shoes, whenever you are moving panels, e.g., plywood or drywall, you tend to manipulate the panels with your feet as well as your hands, which *will* injure your toes without protective shoes or boots. There is also the obvious hazard of dropping panels, which can weigh 60 lbs. or more, on your feet. If you don't already have a pair, get some. You will be very happy about it later. 3. Hearing protection when using power tools. 4. Dust masks 5. A six-pack of work gloves. I like I like this style of gloves for ripping up flooring. They last quite a bit longer than the thinner Mechanix style for heavier jobs like flooring removal. I use gloves far more than the other guys I work with, and I have the Mechanix style for lighter duty stuff. Usually get the $5 -$8 pairs from Harbor Freight. I also notice a pair of knee pads isn't on your list. I have worn out another pair and am ready for better quality than $35 per pair of gel filled semi rigid AWP's. Any recommendations ? |