[ARCHIVED THREAD] - DLP sucks... (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 11/7/2005 8:43:38 AM EDT
| Before you type a long list of things you THINK you know about DLP micro displays, go take a good side-by-side look at the Sony rear-projection SXRD Grand Wega. |
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Well... I guess it depends for what? It used to be better in 3 ways, that was response time, black levels, and off-axis viewing. If you compare the expense of plasma against rear projection micro-displays, it's hard to go w/a flat panel unless you are limited to mounting depth. Take the (no longer sold) Sony KDE42XBR950 42" XBR Plasma WEGA Television for example, the quality was amazing, but not at 3 times the price of the grand-Wega rear projection LCD. Which is under $2K. SXRD is so far above DLP right now that it is scary. |
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Most of the people that don't like DLP argue that the picture quality is "weird" due to the almost seamless picture quality (pixels are MUCH smaller, about 10-20 pixels fit on the footprint of an ant's leg) and over-vibrant colors. Rear projection LCDs seem to be the better alternative. Plasma sucks and you'll know it when you own it for more than 1-2 years. |
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Actually, compared to LCD/SXRD, the pixels fil-facotr ratio is much lower, and there is more space between the pixels. The color problem is becuase it can only produce one color at a time. In a BestBuy, w/florescent ligting, it looks great... but in a theater, well. |
Then you must not have been viewing a good DLP projector display. The video quality of DLP is MOVIE THEATER quality because that is what most movie theaters use. DLP is true digital (mirror deflection +/- 10* 0/1) and video quality should look like a video game (too smooth). Pixel spacing is only 1 micrometer. 3rd gen Archimedes color wheel at higher RPM solves the rainbow effect. DLP pixels take up 90% of the chip, whereas LCD only uses at MOST 50% of the chip. There are dual-chip DMD projectors available (3-chip is too expensive) where one chip is dedicated to a color, and the other chip alternates between 2 colors using the Archimedes wheel. LCoS looks fantastic and is a good alternative to DLP. Stay away from Plasma (very heat/vibration/moisture sensitive). DLP Comparison |
I think you are not only completely wrong about the panel fill-factor, but it also sounds like you have received most of your information from marketing, and not really understanding the differences. Having said this, before I try to explain any terms such as virtual pixelization and Half-resolution wobulated fields. I will point out some MAJOR advantages to SXRD over DLP. SXRD™ Technology 1920 x 1080 pixels Panel Fill Factor 92% DLP 1280 x 720 "Picture Resolution", actual DLP resolution is 640x360. Panel Fill Factor 91% SXRD has 3 panels, each with 2,073,600 total pixels: Fastest response time ever: .5 milliseconds! Thin liquid crystal cell gap: spacer-less 1.5-2.0μm The smallest pixels: 7 microns The closest spacing: .35 microns DLP simply CAN NOT produce multiple colors at once, it is ONLY ONE AT A TIME! DLP has hundreds of thousands of moving parts, SXRD has ZERO! SXRD has a much more efficient lighting system using a less expensive bult that can last longer. In fact, because of the virtual pixels and “wobulation”, Samsung has now changed the shape of their menu's to an oval shape because DLP has trouble making straight lines. Basically, it's Texas Instruments selling this to everyone w/a HUGE advertising budget to EVERYONE, and Sony, who has a small advertising budget and is reserving their technology for themselves. InFocus was a CEDIA and was actually displaying their top end DLP projector using animation; why? It’s because there is virtually nothing difficult to show, including straight lines, in cartoons… it was an insult to many who attended CEDIA. The new Sony SXRD $10K projector and $30K Qualia stole the show… talk to someone who was there. Also, expect Sony to come-back w/a vengeance because of all the DLP propaganda, which I hear will break precedence for Sony because they have always taken the moral high-ground when it comes to bashing competitors. However, HD micro displays are profitable and important to Sony’s future… I expect allot of these DLP salesmen to change gears really quickly when the public starts to understand the difference. Go to a store, put a DLP rear-projection TV against a Sony SXRD Grand WEGA KDS-R60XBR1 60", or a 50" KDS-R50XBR1 and make sure you are getting a good feed. I can even upload some HD clips that will play from a notebook so you can use the HD-15 VGA input to know you are getting a true 720p feed, which looks better than 1080i, or even a pro-scan DVD. |
Texas Instruments and others that use their technology know that they have to put FULL resources into DLP, from a marketing standpoint. Sony's direct sales advertising campaign is relatively new... the 'like no other' stuff, it's all very recent. See my previous comments about Sony officially changing their opinion on dogging the competition, because they have always taken the moral high ground. Competitors didn't respect that, and they don't pay Sony patent royalties... things are about to change. If you don't like the WAY I'm saying it, that's fine, but try to absorb WHAT I'm saying if you are planning to buy a HD TV. |
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Hey buddy... thanks for making an intelligent addition to the topic all the same, but this is a conversation about HD TV's, in the home audio/video section of this site; assuming of course, that you didn't know that already. Question: Do you spend much time wondering around, not knowing where you are? If so – There are people out there who can probably help with a condition such as yours. |
Your welcome. And no, I dont have a problem with that. You sound like a Sony fanboy to me. Its my personal goal to keep jacking this thread, just for you  |
Perfect, the more we post, the more others will see the thread and add to the discussion. So... do you actually know anything about the subject at hand or are you just a pain in the ass in general? |
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Just what giant marketing budget are you reffering to. The handfull of radio ads or the 3-4 tv spots? Also I believe that
is correct for only the 1gen of chip sets that came out. Curretly the Mustang II is running From samsung
and 1/2 the price of the sony. |
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In regards to the pixel count, are you SURE that you aren't reading specs about VIRTUAL pixels? Do you know what I am talking about? Have you ever heard of the term, wabulation? Color blur, and the near 1/3rd response time, and poor black levels aside... I wont even comment about you being wrong about the 1/2 price. As stated earlier, Sony just started their advertising campaign, to combat the DLP propaganda as it became ludicrous. |
Honestly, without significant double blind testing you're just blowing smoke, man. Get someone who has a comparable priced set and your sony, calibrate 'em, then have random folks do viewings surveyed by an independant 3rd party. Please let us know the results. |
Samsung DLP Yep, you caught me, it's only $800 less than a comperable Sony.  SONY No, can you measure it?
To be quite honest with you, unless you have tons of measuring equipment 1/3 of a few Micro seconds is negligable.
Again, Texas Instruments did NOT have much of anything on a advertising budget for DLP. I think in all I heard 2 radio ads about it. When you hear the sales people say that it's Digital Light Projection that ought to clue you in as to our budget. Now maybe Samsung or Mitsubishi had an large ad campaign, but I havn't heard nare a word. Of course YMMV. Anyway, the resolution is really a moot point. There are only a few broadcast networks that even transmit in HDTV. I would suspect that most people do not want to spend > $100 a month for a cable or satelite bill. Most of the technology for 1080i has yet to come to market in a cost effective manner. Again YMMV |
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There are 3rd Gen Rear projection DLP displays available that utilize 2-DMD chipsets and the Archimedes wheel at 10,000 RPM or so. The rainbow effect is either gone or almost unnoticeable. I've seen the quality in person and it's pretty amazing. LCoS is also fantastic but in the end the projection displays' weakest link is the lamps. Me? I have a $50 Walmarter TV that I bought during a Black Friday sale.  I certainly cannot afford HDTVs for rollers.I took a graduate course on modern display technology and my assignment was DLP/DMD based displays. Its digital nature eliminates the need for A/D converters when using the latest media. I believe theaters are using high end DMD-based projection displays, and not LCD. |
| On the subject of theaters, I have been in several movie theater projection rooms in the last week. All used film (not digital). Granted they may use digital for the commercials, but the movies were on film (huge horizontal reels). These were first run theaters. |
Do you happen to know what the theaters use with digital media? I thought the Imax theaters would use something other than film? Why was George Lucas spouting all this crap about Star Wars Episode 2 being all digital and transferred directly to DVD in digital format if the theaters were using actual film? I'm glad it wasn't my mind playing tricks on me when I saw spots floating around when watching some first run movies! |
Imax has been around decades longer than digital video. It has more to do with the lenses used to film (and project) than with the medium, except that they use a very large medium (70MM). As to Lucas, I have to assume he means it was created in a completely digital format (cameras, editing equipment). At some point it was transferred to film - most theaters still use film. There may be some truth to it being direct digital to DVD, but I don't know enough about it to say one way or the other. I definately think theaters will eventually be digital, but that day isn't here yet (although there probably are some all digital theaters now). |
Yes, and LCD panel is an LCD panel, it has real pixels… the SXRD has an actual pixel count of 1920 x 1080…. Such is not the case for the DLP DMD which has an actual resolution much less. The mirror, you see, has to tilt to create a virtual ‘pixel’ this is why the response time is so slow. You say it is negligible, I say it’s not. I have some slides that show the different technology, think they may be at home… when I find, I will post.
So this is your argument, SXRD is better but it doesn’t matter? I’m speaking to SPECIFIC advantages, which are: • True 1080p resolution • Fastest response time • Best black levels since CRT • More color, and at once • Finer image detail (DLP can’t easily produce straight lines because of wobulation, this is why Samsung changed their menu to and oval box instead of square) • Moving parts I am curious however, based on this statement…
What do you mean, when you say ‘our’ budget? |
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This doesn't do a very good job of explaining virtual pixels, but this is something from PS. www.popsci.com/popsci/bown/2004/homeentertainment/article/0,22221,767810,00.html Here is another, trying to spin the term 'wabulation' that was actually a derogatory comment about DLP. www.physorg.com/printnews.php?newsid=7300 |
Somehow I never read this post till now… apologies. If you want to see something astounding, take a good video source, and put a Sony SXRD next to a DLP and do NOTHING more than adjust the color down to zero, where the picture is black and white. The difference will amaze you, the picture falls apart, black levels are terrible, the virtual pixelization ‘wobulation will jump out and bitch slap you. DLP cant even make a straight line… put in a DVD, like the movie ‘Titanic’ and take a good look at the ropes on the vessel as it passes on one of those huge panoramic shots… the ropes have jagged edges and almost blink when they go by. Also, put in a movie like Star Wars where they have a ship flying alone against the dark space background. Pause the two side by side and look at how many more stars will be on the SXRD, it’s because DLP doesn’t produce as wide a grey scale, and it is the result of a poor contrast ratio. I work w/broadcast engineers that know TV better than you, or I, ever could. The equipment those guys use (mostly Sony) and the way NTSC color system is captured, are the primary reasons why DLP as such a bad rainbow effect. In the broadcast world, the video is captured, compressed, broadcast in the 3 primary colors, synced to green for luminance. Add too this, the fact that DLP can't produce but one color at a time, and then has 3 times the latency for response time, and you haven’t even turned the color back up yet… you will probably shock the salesperson at the store, in fact, I bet he runs to grab the store manager. Honestly, my point is that if you want to put the burden on me to have some independent lab 'test' this; instead of going to a store and performing your own 'apples-to-apples' viewing tests... well, then, I don’t really know what to say to that. In fact, there is a Circuit City and a Best Buy in close proximity to each other… not very far from me, and I haven’t done this since CEDIA, so I may go try it now that the SXRD is shipping. Chances are, many of you have never even seen SXRD, or even heard of it for that matter. |
You should leave resurrection to Jesus.  ETA to save a reply from bumping this waste. Seriously, are you paid by Sony or do you just like the smell of their shit? I'm just curious because you certainly have your head up their ass far enough to see what their CEO had for breakfast. See page 1, where you decided not to do a double blind comparison. And you need to remember the best thing about technology--it keeps changing all the time. In six months, what's cool and badass will have changed. When buying any significant dollar item, say, a new big screen TV, it's up to each individual consumer to determine what price point and features they are willing to compromise on. While it's good to know you like inspecting the contents of Sony's colon for your products, I would take a slightly more advantageous route and check out what's available on the market in my price range by more than looking through the latest Sony catalog. I hope your overzealous salesmanship nets you more than a noseful of recycled sushi from Sony, maybe they'll pay you next time if you ask nicely. |
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Man... I'll do whatever it takes to get that kind of response. If there is one thing I enjoy looking at, and I mean it from the bottom of my heart, is a Brazilian girl in a thong bikini. Thanks man!!! At least your not a sore loser... sorry if you busted a big nut on a DLP, however. |
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How is this new Sony supposed to stack up on durability compared to a CRT? I've been saving for the Samsung 1080p HLR5078W, but I was worried about DLP and when I looked at it(was the 720P) in the store, I didn't think it looked as good as the plasma TV's around it. I think I'll hold off for another year or so to see how things settle. I don't really trust this new technology enough to drop $3600 on a TV that will fail in 3 years. My current POS TV is a 19" Sharp that has lasted 15 years. It was only a $200 TV to start with. |
LCD panel life can be as high as 60000 hours, and SXRD will likely be higher. Bulb life on the LCD Grand Wega's could be anywhere from 4000-8000 hours, depending on brightness settings. Becuase of the SXRD being more effecient than LCD, and now being made with an inorganic substrate, I would assume it would be MUCH higher. Sony has moved away from Plasma for consumer televisions, as they are now going to the 7th generation SPVA LCD panels with the wide color-gambit CCFL backlight. Plasma, however, is still being used extensively in professional, digital signange becuase of cost comparisons. I went to Circuit City last night... the SXRD 60" display is really great. It's a shame they dont put it next to DLP. 
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Honestly man... I think you may be a fecalfeliac. |
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I'll head to Circuit City this weekend and check it out. They have the Samsung 720P there, and maybe I'll be able to get a good comparison. $3600 is still pretty steep for me though. I have 2K saved. I want to make sure I get a full high definition TV that will have good picture quality for many years to come. Like 10 years. I haven't been too impressed with Sony as a company in the past few years. I bought one of their DVD drives, and when I upgraded my PC to XP, the drive stopped working. Found out that they refussed to support the device in XP (drivers) and insisted that I buy a new drive. Mine was working perfectly. I did purchase a new DVD drive, just not a Sony. I haven't purchased anything from then since. Out of curriousity, how would a 3 proccessor DLP tv perform? Price aside, how would Texas Instrument's processor work without the color wheel? Three dedicated processor, one for each color. How would the image look then? |
Good luck getting them to compare it side-by-side, they didn't like the idea of doing so either... Also, make sure that you are getting a good source. True 720progressive Mpeg2, is what I recommend. The model I saw was playing a loop of IMAX clips, each about 20 mins long. If you do get the chance, try to turn the color to zero on both the SXRD and the DLP, just to look at the black-level detail and response time. This is what broadcast engineers do w/ther green (luminance only) monitors in the studio. They then mix the other two colors, minus luminance. This alone gives the 3 LCD/3 SXRD panel Grand Wega’s an advantage because the panel driver understands how this signal was broadcast, and compressed… so to speak.
Well… I can’t comment for your experience personally, but I would have to ask if you had an OEM, or branded optical drive. OEM is a different beast altogether, and you could have wound up with something from ‘bob the IT vender.com’ that was never intended for sale as it was a part, for say… IBM or DELL in a 98, or 2000 windows machine. Again, I can’t speak on your particular experience, however Sony did co-invent the optical disc format with Phillips and are still considered one, if not they, industry leaders.
I’m not sure I understand this question as DLP simply must rely on the color wheel as I understand. DLP is bright in the store, but hurts my eyes in a theater… combine this with the slow response time, virtual pixelization (wabulation), and color rainbow effect. I just flat don’t like them. The CEDIA demonstration of the SXRD projector blew the DLP projectors, even costing 2 or 3 times as much… away. If I heard correctly, Lucas himself has an SXRD projector in his personal home theater. |
That's correct, it's an in-organic substrate... and much more light effecient. LCD can develope, over time, a blue-hue. SXRD is about to settle the score... you should definately consider it. |
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The CRT king says: "All your pixels are belong to us." CRTs are still the best display technology. Black levels all other technologies only dream about. In the case of 3 CRT projectors, there is no shadow mask or aperture grille structure so there is no structure artifact of any kind except for the scan line itself, which is invisible if the setup is optimal. Digital has its place but it's not in my home theater. I will be sticking with my very capable Electrohome Marquee 9501LC CRT projector for years to come. With the ability to accept up to 2500x2000 resolution images, I'll be ahead of the digitals for some time to come. And yes, I've got plenty of available brightness. More would just be silly. CJ |
Agreed... but you have to admit the attraction to 60" HD displays that way next to nothing. Front projection is awesome, but not practical as so few have a dedicated theater room. Networkable 4K SXRD projectors w/new lighting, and cooling, technology in addition to high-contrast screens will change that, but the install price, etc will continue the micro-display trend. |
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Top end REAR projection CRT units like Mitsubishi's best models will also be superb units compared to digital RPTVs. I'm pleased with the performance of many digital RPTVS I've seen lately, but the best CRT RPTVs still have them beat in total picture quality. As long as you take a minute to ensure the convergence is correct and so are the picture settings, of course. CJ |
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Is it true that None of these 1080P Televisions accept a true 1080P signal? I know that there are no 1080P signals at this time, but I plan on keeping this TV for a long time. I don't want to upgrade in 5 years. Even the Sony SXRD doesn't accept 1080P. I found out that HP of all companies makes one that does??? |
SXRD is based on the Qaulia 1920(H)x1080(V) Pixels display. www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200302/03-008E/ It will produce 1080p w/out up-converting, and w/out virtual pixelization like DLP. The thing is, not much is broadcast in 1080p. So... considering that 720p looks better (too me) than 1080i, I would worry more about color efect, black level, and response time. |
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OK, so I checked out the SXRD this weekend and it looked amazing. I went to Best Buy and they happened to have the Sony SXRD 50 Inch sitting right next to the Samsung 50 inch 720P. The Sony blew it out of the water. I still would like to see the Sami 1080P, but no one in town seems to have it. So now I'm looking at purchasing the Sony 50 inch. Can you answer some questions for me? What is the best video hookup? HDMI? Component? I'm gonna get a surround sound system when I get the TV so any info would be great. I've read several places that the Sony doesn't have 1080p input so a few years down the road, when 1080p content is more prevelant, I won't be able to feed a 1080p signal to my 1080p television? Any clarification would be greatly appreciated. |
HA... ok guys, we had one take the Pepsi challenge; thanks for sharing M4fanatic!!! The black levels, and the response time, and the panel fill-factor… it’s really great to see someone here go LOOK at it, as opposed to READ about it. Anybody else? Anyway, I would recommend component video above everything else. And, what you've read is a bad smear campaign by the re-sellers of DLP technology, in regards to 1080p. Sony did this with the 70" Qualia 006 nearly 2 years ago, and it was by having true 1920 x 1080 pixels on the chip. DLP had to ‘up-convert’ signals, to show this… so since the Qualia was a $13K TV, they acted as if it was their own doing. And, even though 1080p content is not the norm… it will be nice to have a TV that can handle it, w/out up-converting it, or creating it by wabulation/virtual pixelization. Man, I can’t wait till I get my new house next month… hopefully Santa will be able to shove the 60” down the chimney! |