[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Conceptualizing the Trinity (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 10/22/2009 10:42:05 AM EDT
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My desire here is to graphically represent the Biblical teaching on the concept of Trinity - one God in three persons.
Key importance is placed on the Scripture refernces given. Please discuss what you think are the merits or shortcomings of the graphic (please forgive the poor quality - it did not translate well from PowerPoint to JPEG) 
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OK, here's the relevant Scriptures....
Scripture clearly presents all three persons - Father, Son and Spirit - individually. But there is also unity presented: Unity of Father and Son - Joh 10:30 "I and the Father are one." (Christ speaking) Unity of Son and Spirit - 1Pe 1:10 ¶ As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. (Note the "spirit of Christ") Unity of Father and Spirit - Mt 10:20 "For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you. (Christ Himself speaking, the context being where Christians are called to give account for their faith) Unity of Father Son and Spirit De 6:4 ¶ "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! (context being as God was introducing Himself to Israel, in an enviroment of rampant polytheism) |
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Garandman, I like your original graphic much better than the standard Scutum Fidei (shown above).
"Trinity" is a bit of a misnomer, unfortunately. "Triune God" is a bit better description as it emphasises three persons of one substance*. If you were to do a slightly more complicated graphic, something that looks like this might better get the concept across: 
I will be difficult to get the scriptural proofs on it, but I think it's a clearer illustration of the nature of the Trinity. Just a suggestion. *ETA: Not a reference to the "oneness" doctrine. That would be the only flaw in the illustration, as it could be construed that way. It's difficult for us to wrap our head around the idea of the triune nature of the Trinity, and even harder to depict it with an easily-understood picture. |
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Guys, imagining something is not the same thing as "conceptualizing" it.
God has revealed himself both as "I am who am" and as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Conceptually we are dealing with one being, one "nature" or one "what"....and three persons, three "who's". Human beings are one nature, one person. A person with a single nature that is both material and spiritual. God is three persons with a single nature which is divine. |
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Guys, imagining something is not the same thing as "conceptualizing" it. God has revealed himself both as "I am who am" and as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Conceptually we are dealing with one being, one "nature" or one "what"....and three persons, three "who's". Human beings are one nature, one person. A person with a single nature that is both material and spiritual. God is three persons with a single nature which is divine. I don't see anything I disagree with here. MY question is "In what way does my diagram above NOT express the 'three persons, one nature' concept?" |
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I have always liked this one. http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-godhood.gif If for any other reason, It clearly makes the distinction that the persons of the Trinity are not to be confused even though they are one. Here it is again... http://prepareformass.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/trinity.jpg Very interesting. Except, as the Scriptures I've quoted above show, there IS a unity of Son and Spirit, a unity Spirit and Father, and a unity of Son and Father. But as your diageram shows, that unity does not negate the "personhood of Father, Son and Spirit. |
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*ETA: Not a reference to the "oneness" doctrine. That would be the only flaw in the illustration, as it could be construed that way. It's difficult for us to wrap our head around the idea of the triune nature of the Trinity, and even harder to depict it with an easily-understood picture. Very true. |
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Apologies for misunderstanding. Your diagram works just fine. Not at all. Actually, i saved that graphic you posted, as it does a better job of the "one nature" concept than mine does, I think. I think mine does a better job with the three persons aspect, perhaps. No one picture is gonna capture the Biblical teaching of Trinity (or as Jus rightly suggested, the triune nature of God.) . All the pictures in the world won't capture the full reality of God. |
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Some of the Baroque artists showed 3 images of Jesus to describe the Trinity inasmuch as Paul referred to him as the image of the invisible God. Of course, most people think of the Father as an old man with white beard, the Spirit as a Dove or Phoenix, and the Son as Jesus.
There are trinitarian 'echoes' in creation but there's nothing = to God...so we conceptualize or imagine him but it's never really quite enough. Maybe it'll take all of eternity for our finite minds to ever 'get' it. 
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My desire here is to graphically represent the Biblical teaching on the concept of Trinity - one God in three persons. Key importance is placed on the Scripture refernces given. Please discuss what you think are the merits or shortcomings of the graphic (please forgive the poor quality - it did not translate well from PowerPoint to JPEG) http://i36.tinypic.com/25uqutg.jpg What you have designed is a variation on Borromean Rings which dates back to the 13th century. 
I've always been partial to Rublev's Icon of the Trinity as the best example of how to conceptualize the Blessed Trinity (and I say this as a Latin Rite Catholic, not an Orthodox Christian). The Scutum Fidei is great, but Rublev's Icon is much better. 
All three figures look alike and wear blue, to signify they share the same divine nature. Yet they are all three distinctly separate beings. In fact, it is hard to tell which figure is God the Father and which is God the Son ( "he that seeth me seeth the Father also" - John 14:9). The Holy Spirit is on the right, with the green tunic. A much better explanation of the Icon is here. |
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Genesis 1:26-27 (NKJV)
26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. we are three parts in one First the mind liken to the Father, then the body which is liken to the son, which does the will of the miind, and our soul which is liken to the Spirit, Seems like we are created in the same likeness of God. |
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Please discuss what you think are the merits or shortcomings of the graphic (please forgive the poor quality - it did not translate well from PowerPoint to JPEG) I don't like the idea of God as a Venn diagram. The Venn diagram is used typically to describe the relationship between sets, and to show how they do or do not overlap. From Wiki: Venn diagrams or set diagrams are diagrams that show all hypothetically possible logical relations between a finite collection of sets (groups of things). Venn diagrams were conceived around 1880 by John Venn. They are used in many fields, including set theory, probability, logic, statistics, and computer science.
I think that slightly misses the mark when trying to describe the trinity. The Venn diagram implies things about the things which are described. It's not that the Venn diagram is wrong, but looking at it without context makes it misleading, whereas I think some of the other diagrams are clearer. Just my opinion. |
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I don't like the idea of God as a Venn diagram. The Venn diagram is used typically to describe the relationship between sets, and to show how they do or do not overlap. From Wiki: Venn diagrams or set diagrams are diagrams that show all hypothetically possible logical relations between a finite collection of sets (groups of things). Venn diagrams were conceived around 1880 by John Venn. They are used in many fields, including set theory, probability, logic, statistics, and computer science.
I think that slightly misses the mark when trying to describe the trinity. The Venn diagram implies things about the things which are described. It's not that the Venn diagram is wrong, but looking at it without context makes it misleading, whereas I think some of the other diagrams are clearer. Just my opinion. Mine cannot be a Venn diagram as it is not describing relationships between finite sets. God is infinite. But your general point is correct - looking at my diagram without context could be misleading. I provided Scripture references (and also the Scripture texts) to mitigate that possibility. What I'm looking for is SPECIFIC problems with the diagram. If all you have is general disagreements, that's fine too. |
| Uhhhh....sorry to puncture any tires here. I have always seen it as 3 distinct personages. Other wise why would Christ (meaning the sacrifice) Pray to 'his father in heaven" if he was only praying to himself. Even going so far to ask his Father " If this cup may be passed from me" actually in prayer. Another example: 'Father forgive them for they know not what they do". God had an actual physical resurrected body (ref moses on the mount) this wasnt the only time someone saw and touched God. When Christ revealed himself to those around him after his resurrection, he showed them a real physical body that they could touch. Yes his body dissapeared in the tomb but a body that stank and was decayed was not for the saviour to return to. He has said that we would be ressurrected in bodies that would not decay and would be perfect, so why would not he get one? He will send another who is the 'Comforter" . That indicates 3 separate and individual personages. Now, as a married man, I understand him saying " My Father and I are as one". Ever make a decision about something as parents or a couple and discussed it and came to the same decision? This is the same. 3 personages acting as the same and in unison- sounds like 2 short of a great basketball team! You are welcome to disagree...but I have more references to this and won't be changing my mind anytime soon. Just wanted to point these references out. |
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Uhhhh....sorry to puncture any tires here. I have always seen it as 3 distinct personages. Other wise why would Christ (meaning the sacrifice) Pray to 'his father in heaven" if he was only praying to himself. Even going so far to ask his Father " If this cup may be passed from me" actually in prayer. Another example: 'Father forgive them for they know not what they do". God had an actual physical resurrected body (ref moses on the mount) this wasnt the only time someone saw and touched God. When Christ revealed himself to those around him after his resurrection, he showed them a real physical body that they could touch. Yes his body dissapeared in the tomb but a body that stank and was decayed was not for the saviour to return to. He has said that we would be ressurrected in bodies that would not decay and would be perfect, so why would not he get one? He will send another who is the 'Comforter" . That indicates 3 separate and individual personages. Now, as a married man, I understand him saying " My Father and I are as one". Ever make a decision about something as parents or a couple and discussed it and came to the same decision? This is the same. 3 personages acting as the same and in unison- sounds like 2 short of a great basketball team! You are welcome to disagree...but I have more references to this and won't be changing my mind anytime soon. Just wanted to point these references out. God can self-limit. To deny that is to deny omnipotence. If Jesus were not fully human, despite also being of God, his sacrifice wouldn't have the same meaning. Those word you quote are the reactions of a human being. However, were he also not fully God, he wouldn't be who are what he said he was. Essentially, if you are to go back to the concept of mind, body and spirit referenced above, in sending his Son to be sacrifice, God essentially separated his mind (omnipotence/omniscience) from his body, in order to truly experience life as a human. Just my take, anyway. |
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This is a quick read on the matter.
Our Triune God John MacArthur The Trinity is an unfathomable, and yet unmistakable doctrine in Scripture. As Jonathan Edwards noted, after studying the topic extensively, “I think [the doctrine of the Trinity] to be the highest and deepest of all Divine mysteries” (An Unpublished Treatise on the Trinity). Yet, though the fullness of the Trinity is far beyond human comprehension, it is unquestionably how God has revealed Himself in Scripture—as one God eternally existing in three Persons. This is not to suggest, of course, that the Bible presents three different gods (cf. Deut. 6:4). Rather, God is three Persons in one essence; the Divine essence subsists wholly and indivisibly, simultaneously and eternally, in the three members of the one Godhead—the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. (We considered the deity of Christ last Thursday, in this post .) The Scriptures are clear that these three Persons together are one and only one God (Deut. 6:4). John 10:30 and 33 explain that the Father and the Son are one. First Corinthians 3:16 shows that the Father and the Spirit are one. Romans 8:9 makes clear that the Son and the Spirit are one. And John 14:16, 18, and 23 demonstrate that the Father, Son, and Spirit are one. Yet, in exhibiting the unity between the members of the Trinity, the Word of God in no way denies the simultaneous existence and distinctiveness of each of the three Persons of the Godhead. In other words, the Bible makes it clear that God is one God (not three), but that the one God is a Trinity of Persons. In the Old Testament, the Bible implies the idea of the Trinity in several ways. The title Elohim (”God”), for instance, is a plural noun which can suggest multiplicity (cf. Gen. 1:26). This corresponds to the fact that the plural pronoun (”us”) is sometimes used of God (Gen. 1:26; Isa. 6:8). More directly, there are places in which God’s name is applied to more than one Person in the same text (Ps. 110:1; cf. Gen. 19:24). And there are also passages where all three divine Persons are seen at work (Is. 48:16; 61:1). The New Testament builds significantly on these truths, revealing them more explicitly. The baptismal formula of Matthew 28:19 designates all three Persons of the Trinity: “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.” In his apostolic benediction to the Corinthians, Paul underscored this same reality. He wrote, “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God [the Father], and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all” (2 Cor. 13:14). Other New Testament passages also spell out the glorious truth of the Triune God (Romans 15:16, 30; 2 Cor. 1:21–22; Eph. 2:18). In describing the Trinity, the New Testament clearly distinguishes three Persons who are all simultaneously active. They are not merely modes or manifestations of the same person (as Oneness theology incorrectly asserts) who sometimes acts as Father, sometimes as Son, and sometimes as Spirit. At Christ’s baptism, all three Persons were simultaneously active (Matt. 3:16–17), with the Son being baptized, the Spirit descending, and the Father speaking from Heaven. Jesus Himself prayed to the Father (cf. Matt. 6:9), taught that His will was distinct from His Father’s (Matt. 26:39), promised that He would ask the Father to send the Spirit (John 14:16), and asked the Father to glorify Him (John 17:5). These actions would not make sense unless the Father and the Son were two distinct Persons. Elsewhere in the New Testament, the Holy Spirit intercedes before the Father on behalf of believers (Rom. 8:26), as does the Son, who is our Advocate (1 John 2:1). Again, the distinctness of each Person is in view. The Bible is clear. There is only one God, yet He exists, and always has existed, as a Trinity of Persons—the Father, the Son, and the Spirit (cf. John 1:1, 2). To deny or misunderstand the Trinity is to deny or misunderstand the very nature of God Himself. Today’s article was adapted from John’s commentary on 1-3 John. |
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uhg...never mind. Apparently you didn't read all I wrote or you would not have commented...What I wrote was duplicated several times here already. Have you considered maybe you weren't clear? You sounded like you were arguing against the triune God concept, and instead for a 3 different deity concept. - sort of akin to the old "Arian Heresy." |
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Yes . One God. Never said anything else. The idea that it is several sides to one person is NOT evident in the scriptures. In the 10 commandments for instance. "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me". Does this mean there ARE other gods/Gods? This is a legitimate question because it seems very much to me that there is more going on. It can't be complicated, for we really are simple in nature, if we are to "come to Him as a little child". If I say I sent my son to do something for a neighbor, that does not mean I went. If I sent my beloved son to do a work, I probably sent my oldest or best behaving. I did not go. If I also already had a body at the time of Moses, why would I even come to earth in ANOTHER body? I ask myself these questions and others...then ask for God's help in understanding in the name of Jesus the Christ. He says "Ask in MY name and I will shew it unto you". So I do. Like a little innocent kid expecting an answer. I beleive that there is one God who sent his real son to the earth as a sacrifice to die and be ressurected. As a resurrected being he has an immortal body, just as we were promised at resurrection. The Holy Ghost or Spirit is also a title. Another name given to him is 'The Comforter" by Jesus. A lot of stuff. I see the diagrams and pictures and things you have here and I must beleive it is simple. I am guessing something like the roman 'triumvirate'. It was 3 men of knowledge and moral character who presided as judges in roman court. 3 men can come to a decision after debate and it is more possibly right than if it were one man. I see the three personages as 3 men sitting at a table discussing the work needed and delagation from God to the other 2 for things to be done, and Jesus as the intersesser (sp) to his Father in heaven. The Comforter is sent to admonish and litterally comfort those in need. Simple perhaps...but I beleive it is more correct. Say what you will here and having been in these sites for some time I am understanding not all are in agreement. I go back to the consensus made at the time of the Niscene Councils during the middle ages in europe. All of the church leadership came together to straighten out some of the odd things that had been being taught at the time. As the normal populus never read from an actual bible, being held by the priests and higher clergy at the time, all that the people were told was what the leadership wanted them to hear. Until the 1600's, when the bible was translated to (then) the modern day languages and a normal person like ourselves could read one, the idea that there were 'things too complicated to understand' we given out to those asking questions when the one answering the question didnt want to or was restricted from answering. If God's plan of salvation was too complicated to understand, then we were to ask for enlightenment of the scriptures. Why hasn't this happened?
Let's go back to 3 personages. I am dying on the cross. I look up to heaven and say "Father! Forgive them for they know not what they do!" Who am I talking/praying to? I ask you this not to challenge but to encourage you. If a voice from heaven comes after I am dead and says clearly " This is my Son; in whom I am well pleased." Is Jesus speaking to himself from the grave? If there are 3 separate personages with like mind, then all of these silly comments by God and Jesus become very clear. How about this...'Let Us make Man in Our own image..."This also makes sense. One who creates is not always the builder you see. And there are a large amount of heavenly hosts sitting around doing nothing. " The Grand Architect". Interesting name for God isn't it? I rarely see one on a job site swinging a hammer tho some may. There are others in place to do that and direct the actual building of the house. 3 men with like minds agreeing on subjects All I am attempting to do is make a case for this and ask you to consider it. Nothing more. Perhaps even the idea of 3 men sitting at a table make an even better idea to consider when teaching this. Makes sense. |
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Actually, most people read the scriptures in the original Latin and Greek when most people read....Latin and Greek! So that takes us from 0 to about 450 AD..... before 'translation' becomes an issue.
And what do we see in those first centuries? Protestant theology and ecclesiology? No. Not at all. St Augustine taught scripture to people in northern Africa - people had a good grasp of what the scriptures said.... so Guttenberg was hardly the first time the hoi poloi had access to the scripture. In the 12th century there were translations of the scriptures in other languages besides Latin.... but yes, not so many people read or could write. But who popularized education? Independent lay men? No. Monks did. The universities rose up as Catholic institutions for the explicit purpose of educating people and they all learned from the scriptures as well as from other works.. so it's hardly again that lay men never read the bible until Luther. Mistakes and sins abounded and the medieval church was by no means "perfect" much less generally wonderful. But then, neither has ANY church been so, including among the protestants. Point being, translation and dissemination of the scriptures, alone, didn't "solve" much. Confusion as to what the various translations meant still existed and provoked the huge differences we see in the non-Catholic/Orthodox world of Christianity where by some even start doubting the triune nature of God as revealed by Jesus. |
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I see the diagrams and pictures and things you have here and I must beleive it is simple. . In God's mind, its childs play. In our minds, its difficult. Which only makes sense, as a God easily conceptualized by man isn't worth worshipping. Even a God fully conceptualized by man, with great difficulty, isn't worth worshipping. We haven't a box large enuf to fit God inside. |
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Guys, imagining something is not the same thing as "conceptualizing" it. God has revealed himself both as "I am who am" and as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Conceptually we are dealing with one being, one "nature" or one "what"....and three persons, three "who's". Human beings are one nature, one person. A person with a single nature that is both material and spiritual. God is three persons with a single nature which is divine. I'm going to disagree slightly with you. A human being is a (not "the") trinity just as God is (this is the other part of what is meant by God when he said, "let us make man in our image") A human is comprised of a Body, Mind and a Soul. Those three, distinct entities are what make us a singular person. If you take one away, we are not as we once were. The mystery of the trinity is staring you in the mirror every morning. The Body is like Christ, the Mind is like God the Father and our Soul is like the Holy Spirit. I don't think you can DRAW such a relationship. The "made in the image of God" thing doesn't mean God has ears, nose mouth, and is bipedal (necessarily). It means that the composition of our being as a trinity is like His. |
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I believe from what God's Word has to say about the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit that there is indeed a Trinity by just what the Bible says alone about It.
I really wouldn't know why that a person wouldn't believe in such unless exposed to teachings not taught through One of those Who make up the Trinity, the Holy Spirit of God. I do however, know that there is some so-called christian doctrine out there that refutes the Trinity of God in three Persons, with a what is called the , ''oness teaching'', which I believe that some churches like the United Penticostal Church believes in. I personally do not prescribe to this teaching in any way. Thanks, SAE |
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summarize, condense and boil down thoughts.
I see no evidence of anything other than 3 personages ruling with God at the head and his son and the Holy Ghost at his right and left hand. The picture from the russian (space) icon here I beleive was the closest thing to what actually is. Triune, trilogy, triplet- I beleive with much biblical evidence that there is not a God with 3 'faces' as is implied (space) here but 3 separate and individual ones acting as a motivated single minded group. They have different titles and duties. God (the Father) is in charge. He is God. His son, (space) Jesus, The Christ, is the intecessor between us and God. He was the sacrifice. (space) The Holy Ghost is the comfortor- the one who brings us witness of the Truth and provides the quiet gentle concience we need. (space) This is evidenced by statements of those noted except the Holy Ghost who has never been seen or heard but the effects have been seen such as speaking in tongues and such. (space) We have noted locations in the bible about those that saw God and lived and knew he had a physical body they could touch. Moses, for example. (space) Jesus had a physical body as well and Upon his ressurrection, he had his immortal body as promised to us. How do we know this? Because even though he was the son of the living God, he was on earth to go through life as we did and experience our woes and joys. This is evidenced by him being baptized and taking care of his family prior to going on his 'mission'. (space) Simplistic? A little. If we are to "come to Him as little children" it should be. Oh yes some would say "No! You are denying his authority, his deity!" Not true at all. I beleive his deity IS the reason he came here and gave it all up to be our sacrifice and intersessor to the Father. At any time he could have called out and the hosts of heaven would have come to his aid. Doubt this? I do not. (space) I see the russian icon on page 1 and I was amazed at the concept and true understanding it represented. I plan on using it when I discuss the deity of God, His Son, and Holy Ghost. The clothing colors representing their duties and gestures showed someone understood this already. All had bodies which you could see and possibly touch as those in the past have done. Okay, I'm done. Anyone have any cookies? |
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Actually, most people read the scriptures in the original Latin and Greek when most people read....Latin and Greek! So that takes us from 0 to about 450 AD..... before 'translation' becomes an issue. And what do we see in those first centuries? Protestant theology and ecclesiology? No. Not at all. St Augustine taught ... Easy with the generalizations, brother. The fathers of the Reformation (Luther/Calvin/Zwingli) made an attempt to return to Augustinian theology, and much of their "protest" was centered around doctrines that Augustine instituted but that the Church drifted away from in the intervening thousand years or so. In very few instances does the "protestant theology and ecclesiology" of today's American churches resemble that of the Reformers. Heck, think about it this way: It's been 500 years since Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door at Wittenberg, almost as long as that for the Augsburg Confession, and only 100 years less since the Westminster Confessions. Think how far America has drifted from the principles of government as laid out in the Declaration and Constitution in less than half that time. So too have many Protestant denominations drifted from the ideas of the Reformation. </hijack> ETA: To bring this back on topic; Augustine was kind of a fan  of what is now known as the Filioque. For those not familiar, it's a phrase that was added to the Nicene Creed to emphasize that The Son and The Father are of equal divinity.
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summarize, condense and boil down thoughts. <snip> Okay, I'm done. Anyone have any cookies? Interesting, but you fail to cite any Scriptural proofs. If what you posted is just your opinion and you don't beleive you need to cite any Scriptural proofs, that is your prerogative (tho I disagree with it) The evidence you don't claim to see, are the Scripture texts I gave. I can see them in this thread. Can you not? |
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Simplistic? A little. If we are to "come to Him as little children" it should be. This is perhaps the most interesting concept you advance, as it is a "universal" type of assertion. The idea of coming to Christ as a little child is NOT that the truth about Christ is "simplistic" but rather that of the faith of a little child, to beleive whatever He says, EVEN THO we don't understand it. Specifically, of the doctrine of salvation. I've given you what Christ says about the Trinity in the Scripture texts. The question now is "Will you beleive what He has said with the faith of a little child?" As I said before, a God that can be comprehended fully is NOT God. God speaks to us in baby talk, and we strain mightily to understand even that. And yet, the work of God in saving a man's soul can happen even in a little child. |
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Ok..make me work will you...(groaning out loud). I am here trying to avoid contention and strife so that the Holy Spirit will abide. What say you? Shall we delve into this?
Duet 6:4 In this chapter Moses proclaims: The Lord our God is one Lord: Thou shall love the Lord thy God: Israel commanded to teach their children––Moses extorts Israel to keep the commandments and testimonies and statutes of the Lord, that they may prosper. "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is Lord:" Yes. He is God and He is Lord. In fact, this is the point I already made. He has authority and power and glory As Creator and The Judge of Israel. There was no statement anywhere where I even mentioned anything else. But, oh yes. There is more. Are YOU denying the power and authority that is Jesus's birthright? He gave up his power authority and privledge to come here as a Sacrifice. He was sent by his Father (God). To me there is no more telling about the nature of God than Genesis 1 verse 26 and 27.... 26: And God said: let US make man in OUR own image, after OUR likeness: and let them have dominion over fish of the sea, and the fowl of the air, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27: So God made man in HIS OWN image, in the image of GOD created he him; male AND female created he them. (emphasis my own sorry) I put to you as my answer a question: Who was there with God when he made the earth and everything on it- especially male and female mankind? Clearly we, by default as decendants of Adam and Eve are made in the image of God. Female also? Who were they created after? God also? God is female and male? I don't beleive so. This will drive you crazy I am sure with trying to answer it in some complicated way. Maybe you are better at scripture than I am. I see this as there is one but for us, there is only one we answer to- his son is our intersessor, and a helper brings us the spirit of God (Holy Ghost) I am sure this will bring an uproar but I had to put it in there. There are things not being answered simply and concisely and they should be. To me, a statement, "No one can understand the mysteries of God" will not ever cut it. First, remember that in John 14:13 Jesus says, “And whatever you ask... “Often we wonder, “What can I pray for? How much can I pray for?” But when Jesus encourages us to pray, He always uses limitless language — “whatever you ask.” Some of us pray as though God had just declared bankruptcy, but I believe that He is honored and glorified when we ask for bigger things of Him. In His Name Second, Jesus emphasized “Whatever you ask in My name... “For many years I did not understand what that phrase meant. I knew it was very important because Jesus continually reminds us to ask in His name. I also knew that it was not just a simple formula tacked on to the end of a prayer. So I began to ask the Lord to show me what it meant to pray in the name of Jesus. A story of when my children were younger as a parable if you will. We went to a show at an arena where a baseball team were playing. My son had brought a friend but made no mention of a ticket. When we went to go through the turnstiles, we were all asked for our tickets and my son said to me, 'Dad, he is my friend. I told him it would be taken care of." I gave him my ticket and went to purchase another right then. At that moment I totally understood Christ's responsibility. I am not pefect and as a former Navy sailor, I have several 'challenges' in my life which keep me humble. I know for certainty there are more educated persons out there but as for me, I am willing to try and learn. Matthew 10:20 (Christ instructs, empowers, and sends Apostles forth to preach, minister, and heal the sick- Those who receive them, recieve the Lord.) For it is not ye that speak, but it is the Spirit (capitalized- important) of your Father which speaketh in you. (Holy Spirit/Ghost= Title- other titles for same, Comforter, Spirit of Truth) John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus (the) Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, be multiplied. God (the Father) and the Spirit are separate or Peter would say God's spirit- the wording is precise here. The next verse: :3 Blessed be the God AND Father of our Lord Jesus (the) Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the ressurection of Jesus Christ from the dead. Resurrection was promised to us and Peter's hope was renewed by Christ's resurrection. Our resurrection was promised with imortal, incorruptible bodies. Christ now has one? 1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. The previous scriptures refer to ancient prophesy from the prophets pertaining to the plan of salvation . Here the Spirit of Christ came to them BEFORE his time on earth. Spirit means...NO BODY. The Holy Ghost is mentioned in the next verse specifically and separately again for emphasis and capitalized meaning it is a title. 2 separate and different spirits here. Angels mentioned also meaning more spirits. If you believe in angels and Spirits of God then demons and evil spirits also exist. How many are there? 2/3 angels to 1/3 demons which followed Lucifer. Are these also Gods? Again, "Let us make man in OUR image..." Just a question. 1 Peter 1:21 (previous verses refered to Christ and his sacrifice and His purity) Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead; and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Jesus was raised from the dead by his father(God), and gave him (Christ) glory so that we might believe in God. These are your scriptures and I have dissected them and added context. I will quit this thread as it is not progressing. My suggestion to garandman is to keep it very very simple and to the point- the graphs do not help as much. There is one on here that had 3 separate circles with lines running between all of them. THAT might be what you are looking for. Interaction betweeen titicular names might help another understand better. K.I.S.S. is a good idea and will stay in the memory longer. |
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For those who may wish to place the effort into a clear understanding what Christians must believe on the matter.....for your own study the following sights give a good starting point.
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t002.html http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v3/n1/the-trinity http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2008/02/20/god-is-triune http://www.gty.org (and enter "Trinity" into the top left search bar) Some Great audio and video! http://www.marshillchurch.org/media/doctrine/trinity-god-is http://www.rzim.org/CA/Resources/Listen/JustThinking.aspx?archive=1&page=38 |
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And of course the great C H Spurgeons thoughts are always worth reading.
"Sanctified by God the Father." {#Jude 1:1} "Sanctified by God the Father." {#Jude 1:1} "Sanctified in Christ Jesus." {#1Co 1:2} "Through sanctification of the Spirit." {#1Pe 1:2} Mark the union of the three Divine Persons in all their gracious acts. How unwisely do those believers talk who make preferences in the Persons of the Trinity; who think of Jesus as if he were the embodiment of everything lovely and gracious, while the Father they regard as severely just, but destitute of kindness. Equally wrong are those who magnify the decree of the Father, and the atonement of the Son, so as to depreciate the work of the Spirit. In deeds of grace none of the Persons of the Trinity act apart from the rest. They are as united in their deeds as in their essence. In their love towards the chosen they are one, and in the actions which flow from that great central source they are still undivided. Specially notice this in the matter of sanctification. While we may without mistake speak of sanctification as the work of the Spirit, yet we must take heed that we do not view it as if the Father and the Son had no part therein. It is correct to speak of sanctification as the work of the Father, of the Son, and of the Spirit. Still doth Jehovah say, "Let us make man in our own image after our likeness", and thus we are "his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." See the value which God sets upon real holiness, since the three Persons in the Trinity are represented as co-working to produce a Church without "spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing." And you, believer, as the follower of Christ, must also set a high value on holiness—upon purity of life and godliness of conversation. Value the blood of Christ as the foundation of your hope, but never speak disparagingly of the work of the Spirit which is your meetness for the inheritance of the saints in light. This day let us so live as to manifest the work of the Triune God in us." |
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A few extras:
"God the Father is a deep root, the Son is the shoot that breaks forth into the world, and the Spirit is that which spreads beauty and fragrance. Tertullian" "Tell me how it is that in this room there are three candles and but one light, and I will explain to you the mode of the divine existence. John Wesley" "Many, who often hear the gospel of Christ, are yet but little affected, because they are void of the Spirit of Christ. But whosoever would fully and feelingly understand the words of Christ, must endeavour to make all his life like in its beauty unto His. What will it avail thee to dispute profoundly of the Trinity, if thou be void of humility, and art thereby displeasing to the Trinity?.... If thou didst know the whole Bible by heart, and the sayings of all the philosophers, what would all that profit thee without the love of God and without grace. Thomas a Kempis" "For the blind children of the world the articles of faith are too high. That three persons are one only God; that the true Son of God was made man; that in Christ are two natures, divine and human, et cetera; all this offends them, as fiction and fable.Luther" Mingled vanity and pride appear in this, that when miserable men do seek after God, instead of ascending higher than themselves as they ought to do, they measure him by their own carnal stupidity, and neglecting solid inquiry, fly off to indulge their curiosity in vain speculation. Hence, they do not conceive of him in the character in which he is manifested, but imagine him to be whatever their own rashness has devised. This abyss standing open, they cannot move one footstep without rushing headlong to destruction. With such an idea of God, nothing which they may attempt to offer in the way of worship or obedience can have any value in his sight, because it is not him they worship, but, instead of him, the dream and figment of their own heart.-John Calvin, "For He so proclaims Himself the sole God as to offer Himself to be contemplated clearly in three persons. Unless we grasp these, only the bare and empty name of God flits about in our brains, to the exclusion of the true God. Again, lest anyone imagine that God is threefold, or think God's simple essence to be torn into three persons, we must here seek a short and easy definition to free us from all error." –– John Calvin |
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Many opinions here some scripture, some commentaries from noted teachers, still the point is CHOSING THE RIGHT LORD JESUS CHRIST DETERMINES WHERE YOU SPEND ENTERNITY EITHER HEAVEN OR HELL. Some here LDS claim Jesus is a angle hence a created being same with the J.W.s a Jesus is a created being. Some say Jesus is fully God and part of the Trinity.
Here are a few scriptures to sober up your stand, chose wisely which Jesus you chose. Heaven or hell lies in the choice, 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 (NKJV) 1 Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly––and indeed you do bear with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted––you may well put up with it! Galatians 1:6-10 (NKJV) 6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Note; Repeated Twice 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:11-15 (NKJV) 11 Why? Because I do not love you? God knows! 12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works. My choice is in these scriptures, 1 Corinthians 14:33-34 (NKJV) 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. . John 14:4-11 (NKJV) 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know." 5 Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?" 6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him." 8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us." 9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. 1 Timothy 3:14-16 (NKJV) 14 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; 15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. |
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Ok..make me work will you...(groaning out loud). I am here trying to avoid contention and strife so that the Holy Spirit will abide. What say you? Shall we delve into this? No contention....just honest discussion. Duet 6:4 In this chapter Moses proclaims: The Lord our God is one Lord: Thou shall love the Lord thy God: Israel commanded to teach their children––Moses extorts Israel to keep the commandments and testimonies and statutes of the Lord, that they may prosper. "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is Lord:" Yes. He is God and He is Lord. In fact, this is the point I already made. He has authority and power and glory As Creator and The Judge of Israel. There was no statement anywhere where I even mentioned anything else. But, oh yes. There is more. Are YOU denying the power and authority that is Jesus's birthright? He gave up his power authority and privledge to come here as a Sacrifice. He was sent by his Father (God). To me there is no more telling about the nature of God than Genesis 1 verse 26 and 27.... 26: And God said: let US make man in OUR own image, after OUR likeness: and let them have dominion over fish of the sea, and the fowl of the air, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27: So God made man in HIS OWN image, in the image of GOD created he him; male AND female created he them. (emphasis my own sorry) I put to you as my answer a question: Who was there with God when he made the earth and everything on it- especially male and female mankind? You've touched on the heart of the matter here. The proper interpretation fo Scripture requires (at least) these two things - 1. Doing justice to the specific passge we are looking at, and seeing that passage in its context. 2. Understanding that passage in the light of the WHOLE of Scripture. Gen. 1:26-27 definitely hints at a plurality in God. Many other passages definitively assert it as well. . But Deut 6:4 definitely asserts that God is one. As do many other passages. From this we come up with the best expalantion we can - which is the Triune God. 3 persons, 1 nature. Frankly, both human language and human intelligence fall short of the capacity needed to fully rationalize this. We simply MUST accept the FULL teaching of Scripture, which is of a triune (literally a "three unity") deity. For orthodox Christianity, this was largely settled at the council of Chalcedon, if you wish to do some REALwork  in wrestling with this issue.
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Posted by garandman;
From this we come up with the best expalantion we can - which is the Triune God. 3 persons, 1 nature. I've spoken to many Muslims and here in is what they believe. They believe Christians worship 3 Gods. I could not exlpain the trinity in any way that made sense to them when discussing our beliefs. After all these answers in this thread, I still don't understand the trinity but my head hurts real good. |
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I've always considered the Platonic metaphor of the cave an appropriate method of understanding the Trinity.
Think of life in the material realm as the cave. We are in the cave. Outside the cave, the sun shines and some light enters the cave, providing an inconsistent illumination by which we comprehend things. With that in mind, God the Father is the Sun, the Holy Spirit is the light by which we see and Jesus the Son is God in the form of a human individual who enters the cave and lives beside us. All three are necessary components of the process. Part of the problem is linguistic - we insist on thinking of 'God' in the form of a noun. A more proper way of expressing 'God' would probably be a gerund form of a verb. Just like 'seeing' implies the thing seen, the image formed in the mind and the act itself, so 'God' includes the being who exists outside and independent of the material universe, the force by which everything in the universe lives and the individual of Jesus. |
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Posted by garandman;
From this we come up with the best expalantion we can - which is the Triune God. 3 persons, 1 nature. I've spoken to many Muslims and here in is what they believe. They believe Christians worship 3 Gods. I could not exlpain the trinity in any way that made sense to them when discussing our beliefs. After all these answers in this thread, I still don't understand the trinity but my head hurts real good. Try explaining it to them by comparing it to the three "persons" intrinsic to their own being (mind, body and soul). |
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Posted by garandman;
From this we come up with the best expalantion we can - which is the Triune God. 3 persons, 1 nature. I've spoken to many Muslims and here in is what they believe. They believe Christians worship 3 Gods. I could not exlpain the trinity in any way that made sense to them when discussing our beliefs. After all these answers in this thread, I still don't understand the trinity but my head hurts real good. A lot of Jews see it similar, FWIW. Some of the imagery and concepts within Christianity don't help. Then there;s the whole saints thing - also similar within Shia Islam - which elements within other sects of the faiths themselves consider false Gods. Joy. |
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If God The Father and God The Son are the same person, literally, then I would have to ask why The Son stands at the right hand of The Father in heaven?
If they are the same person, who did Jesus pray to in the Garden of Gethsemane? If they are the same person, why would Jesus pray at all, since he would only be talking to himself. When Jesus was baptised he was in the River Jordan, and The Father spoke from the heavens of how pleased He was with His Son. The Holy Spirit was also seen descending like a dove. So the Father was in the heaven, the Holy Spirit descending, and The Son in the River Jordan. Thus I must come to the conclusion that they are three seperate entities in the Godhead/Trinity. They are one in purpose, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Interestingly enough we use a similar concept of being "one" in terms of parents being united in raising their family. Thus The Word (Jehovah/Jesus) is God and he is also with God The Father. Thus mankind was created in their image. This is one of those cases where I frankly don't see the scriptures are hard to understand at all. It looks pretty clear to me. Now I'm sure someone will tell me that I'm trying to apply my limited understanding to an un-understandable God, but I also have the experience of Joseph Smith to refer to, where God The Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph and spoke to him. I understand that many don't believe in Joseph Smith's experience, but they can't deny that it doctrinally agrees with Stephen and what he saw. |
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If God The Father and God The Son are the same person, literally, then I would have to ask why The Son stands at the right hand of The Father in heaven? If they are the same person, who did Jesus pray to in the Garden of Gethsemane? If they are the same person, why would Jesus pray at all, since he would only be talking to himself. Do you ever consciously tell your body what to do? Does your body ever speak to your mind? Does your soul? Why would that communication be necessary if they are all the "same?" |
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If God The Father and God The Son are the same person, literally, then I would have to ask why The Son stands at the right hand of The Father in heaven? If they are the same person, who did Jesus pray to in the Garden of Gethsemane? If they are the same person, why would Jesus pray at all, since he would only be talking to himself. Do you ever consciously tell your body what to do? Does your body ever speak to your mind? Does your soul? Why would that communication be necessary if they are all the "same?" So you're asking me if I talk to myself?
I know what you're getting at, I just disagree with your view. You are suggesting that Jesus was actually praying/talking to himself. I don't personally agree about that. I believe that Jesus Christ is on the literal right hand of God The Father, just as Stephen testified.
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If God The Father and God The Son are the same person, literally, then I would have to ask why The Son stands at the right hand of The Father in heaven? If they are the same person, who did Jesus pray to in the Garden of Gethsemane? If they are the same person, why would Jesus pray at all, since he would only be talking to himself. Do you ever consciously tell your body what to do? Does your body ever speak to your mind? Does your soul? Why would that communication be necessary if they are all the "same?" So you're asking me if I talk to myself?
I know what you're getting at, I just disagree with your view. You are suggesting that Jesus was actually praying/talking to himself. I don't personally agree about that. I believe that Jesus Christ is on the literal right hand of God The Father, just as Stephen testified.Absolutely not. "Self" is a concept that we understand in human terms. Jesus spoke to a distinct personage (His Father)... just as your mind speaks to your body. We understand "self" as one physical entity with a consciousness. It is certainly possible that there are OTHER definitions of "self," when one is not bound by spacetime. Three physical/spiritual/energetic entities that share a common thread that entwines them each to the other... much as our bodies exist as three distinct entities that are inextricably bound each to the other. |
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If God The Father and God The Son are the same person, literally, then I would have to ask why The Son stands at the right hand of The Father in heaven? If they are the same person, who did Jesus pray to in the Garden of Gethsemane? If they are the same person, why would Jesus pray at all, since he would only be talking to himself. Do you ever consciously tell your body what to do? Does your body ever speak to your mind? Does your soul? Why would that communication be necessary if they are all the "same?" So you're asking me if I talk to myself?
I know what you're getting at, I just disagree with your view. You are suggesting that Jesus was actually praying/talking to himself. I don't personally agree about that. I believe that Jesus Christ is on the literal right hand of God The Father, just as Stephen testified.Absolutely not. "Self" is a concept that we understand in human terms. Jesus spoke to a distinct personage (His Father)... just as your mind speaks to your body. We understand "self" as one physical entity with a consciousness. It is certainly possible that there are OTHER definitions of "self," when one is not bound by spacetime. Three physical/spiritual/energetic entities that share a common thread that entwines them each to the other... much as our bodies exist as three distinct entities that are inextricably bound each to the other. I understand better what you are saying, but I don't see them in that way. I see them as three seperate entities. Yes, they are so alike in mind and purpose that they can speak for eachother, but in terms of "self" they are three distinct souls just as you and I are distinct souls. The "common thread that entwines them" is their united purpose in bringing about the salvation of man. |
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I understand better what you are saying, but I don't see them in that way. I see them as three seperate entities. Yes, they are so alike in mind and purpose that they can speak for eachother, but in terms of "self" they are three distinct souls just as you and I are distinct souls. The "common thread that entwines them" is their united purpose in bringing about the salvation of man. To be honest, I think you are anthropomorphizing God. Our world view is predicated on knowing that each entity is a singular "self." I think it is safe to say that may NOT be the case elsewhere. *shrug* I don't think it really matters in the long run which interpretation we believe... kind of like our particular views on Creation... both questions I have for my Creator when I meet Him/Them. |
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I understand better what you are saying, but I don't see them in that way. I see them as three seperate entities. Yes, they are so alike in mind and purpose that they can speak for eachother, but in terms of "self" they are three distinct souls just as you and I are distinct souls. The "common thread that entwines them" is their united purpose in bringing about the salvation of man. To be honest, I think you are anthropomorphizing God. Our world view is predicated on knowing that each entity is a singular "self." I think it is safe to say that may NOT be the case elsewhere. *shrug* I don't think it really matters in the long run which interpretation we believe... kind of like our particular views on Creation... both questions I have for my Creator when I meet Him/Them. Fair enough. As far as anthropomorphizing God, I hope you can understand where I'm coming from. Man is created in God's image, and Christ lived as a man and has a resurrected body of a man. Psalms 82 gives an even more striking link, "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." |