[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Current Revelation (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 7/24/2009 1:27:18 PM EDT
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From the locked "LDS Memeber " thread. . .
As for modern revelation. D&C is actually a good start. But for the most current revelations I suggest reading the latest Ensign.
You can go here and read the messages for free if you'd like. (The original thread was hot linked to the current issue of the mormon publication, the Ensign) OK, Shane. I have read the complete July 2009 edition. I didn't read anything there that was described as revelation. Would you please point out to me what is the revelation contained in that issue? Thanks! |
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From the locked "LDS Memeber " thread. . . As for modern revelation. D&C is actually a good start. But for the most current revelations I suggest reading the latest Ensign.
You can go here and read the messages for free if you'd like. (The original thread was hot linked to the current issue of the mormon publication, the Ensign) OK, Shane. I have read the complete July 2009 edition. I didn't read anything there that was described as revelation. Would you please point out to me what is the revelation contained in that issue? Thanks! I'll let others answer the question... I am sure they will do a much better job than me anyway... But you and I have sparred a few times, and while I am highly confident you enjoy what you do, may I say that I think it is cool that you actually *read* the Ensign. Pretty dang cool, actually. Alright, I can't resist. Here is my quick answer: It is a pretty weak lighthouse that does not constanly give the same signal. I have heard the same complaint from General Conference... "They always say the same things..." Yeah, well, duh. That in and of itself is prophecy and revelation... |
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I’m just going to throw some general information out there for people who wish to do some research?
There have been many people over the years who prophesied falsely pertaining to the return of Christ as well as other events. Several of them were prominent in American History. The Bible gives dire warnings to those who claim to prophesy and do so erroneously. In the Old Testament they were stoned to death…..today many build mega churches and have their own jets....and appear to get away with it …for now. The question to ask ourselves is how do we know those who are false and lie against those who speak the truth? How can we gauge their truth against The Truth? It’s a serious subject and worth our time. Jer 29 8-9 For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Let not your prophets and your diviners, that [be] in the midst of you, deceive you, neither hearken to your dreams which ye cause to be dreamed. For they prophesy falsely unto you in my name: I have not sent them, saith the LORD. 2 Cor 11-13, 14, 15 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. 1st John 4-1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. |
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I’m just going to throw some general information out there for people who wish to do some research? Yeah, the Tinman is an objective source of Mormon theology... Yeah, he'll objectively tell "both sides" of the story fer sure...  
Actually, the scriptures make it clear on how to identify a "false" prophet. Matt 7:20 You can know a real prophet by their fruits. I think it would be hard for anyone to look at the LDS church today, with missionaries worldwide, and compare that to a persecuted church in early American history, and claim that is not powerful "fruit." Here is a dang good explanation of the LDS view of a "false prophet." This by M. Russel Ballard, an Apostle for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints... "False prophets and false teachers are those who declare that the Prophet Joseph Smith was a duplicitous deceiver; they challenge the First Vision as an authentic experience. They declare that the Book of Mormon and other canonical works are not ancient records of scripture. They also attempt to redefine the nature of the Godhead, and they deny that God has given and continues to give revelation today to His ordained and sustained prophets." That is what a false prophet is to a member of the LDS church. And back to the good (tax) doctors original question... I have to tell, you buddy, you got me beat... Even I have not read the entire Ensign... I usually just read the First Presidency Message... I have to tell you though, as I read it looking for inspiriation and revelation for myself, my family, and those I serve, I find it very clear, precise, and powerful. I find the modern revelation when I approach it looking for it... But like I said earlier. It might just look like the same thing over and over again... Like a lighthouse giving the same signal... But that signal is very significant, and very important. Of course it might sound redundant, or repeated. There is power in that... Because it should. We know that it is the same church (signal, in the lighthouse analogy) that Jesus Christ established. Did the pharisess accuse Jesus of 'changing the signal'... Yep, but they had already started following their own "false prophets"... And their hearts were hardened to the 'new' gospel truth he taught... They tried arguing with Jesus all the time in his ministry about his 'new' revelation. The good (tax) doctor claiming that he did not find anything in reading the current Ensign does not bother me when I consider Jesus himself standing before the corrupted "church" leaders of His time. But Jesus had the right signal, and he had the right message. Just because some "church" leader claimed he was a "false prophet" and had him crucified for it does not change his message (or his signal from my lighthouse analogy). Same as in our church today. We have the right signal, and we follow the right signal. We put our trust in the message being delivered by a modern prophet, and apostles, just like the saints had to put their trust in Peter the Apostle in Christ's time... And Jesus himself was called out by the pharisees and saduccees... So I don't find much offense in those who try to call out our current church leaders... I know the truth, and I know where to find it... And I have already said it, but I honestly think it is worth repeating that I think it is cool that the good (tax) doctore read the entire Ensign... My wife took the kids to a family reunion in the great state of Idaho, and I am a bachelor tonight, (had to work...  ) so I stayed up late arfcomming... And... I am going to bed now. Hope somebody else can duel it out better with you gents, because I am tired. Perhaps I was a bit long-winded... Hey, I had some time...
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TaxPhd, In addition to the responses above, please be aware the LDS organization employs a concept they refer to as "milk before meat", or something along those lines, whereby they are taught it is god's will and therefore OK and even desirable to deflect the conversation into another direction or lie (or get threads locked) for the non-mormon's own good when the conversation turns toward certain subjects that relate to the true inner workings and doctrine of the organization. For example when the other thread touched on the Golden Plates, or Jesus being the spirit brother of lucifer look what happened, and look who had to bring the subjects up in the first place. So asking a straight question does not guarantee a straight answer. Of course The Apostle Paul is the author of the original statement about "milk before meat", but he never used it in the context of deliberately concealing facts.
I would recommend the chapter on mormonism in the book "The Kingdom of the Cults" by the late Dr. Walter Martin for an unbiased (unbiased = "biblical") treatment of the subject. All the information Dr. Martin compiled is from official LDS sources. Also, The Kingdom of the Cults was first published in 1965 and although Dr. Martin died in 1989 they still revise it. I would recommend an "original" edition published before 1989. |
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"Yeah, the Tinman is an objective source of Mormon theology... Yeah, he'll objectively tell "both sides" of the story fer sure... "
Juini, I don’t claim to be objective but I try not to fabricate information and I try to be fair. If you should ever catch me making up fabricating or even misunderstanding please slap my hand and call me out on it. On the other hand I’m a fan of calling a spade a spade. If everyone’s “truth” were true but conflicted in their basic tenets…well then none of them could be true at all. I'm sure you will agree that Truth by its very nature must be exclusive. |
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OK, Shane. I have read the complete July 2009 edition. I didn't read anything there that was described as revelation. Would you please point out to me what is the revelation contained in that issue? Thanks! I am often intrigued by those that argue against the need for modern revelation even as they are witness and party to the many disputes and misunderstandings that good people have over what the words of the Bible mean. It was this very situation that led Joseph Smith to seek out the Lord's word in the Bible himself and to pray to the Lord for guidance. He saw that the many churches disagreed as to what the same passages in the Bible meant. He determined that the Lord could not be the author of so much confusion and sought Him out in prayer. It is a foreign concept to me to think that the Lord loved those in the olden times so much more than us as to send to them living prophets to lead and preach to them but not to us in these the most tumultuous times in the history of the world. The First Presidency Message that appears in the Ensign every month is revelation from God to the world through His prophet. Other articles in the Ensign written by the apostles are revelation also as they are prophets, seers, and revelators, as well. You mention that you didn't read anything that was described as revelation. I find that peculiar. Biblical prophets did not always describe their own words as revelation, but surely you would describe them as such. As Latter-Day Saints, we know that any message put out by any member of the First Presidency or Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in any official capacity is revelation. Revelation from the Lord's prophets is not always earth-shattering, new-doctrine-revealing information. It often simply reveals to us things that we need to work harder on or pay particular attention to. Paul's letters that make up much of the New Testament were of a similar nature. He was reaffirming things that he had already preached to them, encouraging them to continue in faith, and warning them of potential problems and pitfalls they may face. That is the day-to-day work of the prophets and apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ. |
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Yall know of course (yeah I'm a southern girl) that this thread is headed for a lock out as well. But.............
"Juni" are you aware of what you just said?? "The LDS view of a "false prophet" and this....."That is what a "false prophet" is to a member of the LDS Church" ??????? I fear any Church/religion that proclaims that "they" have the "revelation" of what a false prophet is.......rather than "instructing" their congregation to go to the word of God and read the real and correct way of making this discernment. You quoted Matthew 7:20 "Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them". The "fruit" can tell many things, and if I remember correctly, I brought this up in another thread......Angelina Jolei, a well known atheist, among many in the Hollywood crowd, produces much "friut" ......aka good deads. Fruits are good, but not "reliable enough" to risk your eternal destination on it! 1 John 4:1-4 "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus in not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world". I reach out to anyone who is listening/following anyone of "this" world. Joseph Smith, and the guy you mentioned with "his" revelation of what a false prophet is, M. Russell Ballard, are of this world! Please, just try this, clear your mind of everything you have ever been told/taught...........go directly to the Bible, and only the Bible........pray this before you open it......"Heavenly Father, Lord Jesus, I come to your word with an open heart and open mind, I want to understand, please give me understanding, insite, and wisdom, that I may do as you ask of me". It may take a few tries, possibly many, if your mind is still clouded with what you have heard or been taught. But, as God as my witness, the day you truly open your heart and mind to Him in this humbled way...........He will give you, through the Holy Spirit, what you are asking for. True knowledge from God, not some man. And this is in regards to ANY religion, I am not just saying this because you are LDS. Please, just give it a try. After all, I am not some cultic person leading you to read some off the wall book, or do a bunch of weird chanting, or stand in front of an idol and pray. You say you believe in the Bible, so go there.
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True knowledge from God, not some man. No one in the LDS Church is ever encouraged to just believe "some man". We are encouraged to search the scriptures, to ponder them, and to pray and ask the Lord what is right. We believe in personal revelation. I don't know that the Book of Mormon is true because someone else told me it is. I know it is true because I have read it and asked the Lord if it is true. And He has told me of the truth of it by the power of the Holy Ghost. That you believe that LDS just blindly follow shows that you really know nothing about us. We are nothing if not independent, free-thinking people. It is apparent that you are more interested in insulting us than you are in having an intellectually honest discussion. |
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There are several replies that I would like to address, but I am on the way out the door, and won't be able to until later today. i hope the thread doesn't get locked, because i think that we can have a good discussion about revelation.
Juni, you and I are starting off on the right foot in this thread. I hope we can continue that. |
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True knowledge from God, not some man. No one in the LDS Church is ever encouraged to just believe "some man". We are encouraged to search the scriptures, to ponder them, and to pray and ask the Lord what is right. We believe in personal revelation. I don't know that the Book of Mormon is true because someone else told me it is. I know it is true because I have read it and asked the Lord if it is true. And He has told me of the truth of it by the power of the Holy Ghost. That you believe that LDS just blindly follow shows that you really know nothing about us. We are nothing if not independent, free-thinking people. It is apparent that you are more interested in insulting us than you are in having an intellectually honest discussion. I did not insult you, I practually begged you to just go to the word of God first. If, however, you felt you were insulted, then it must have been by the words spoken by "Juni", of which I only repeated. |
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There are several replies that I would like to address, but I am on the way out the door, and won't be able to until later today. i hope the thread doesn't get locked, because i think that we can have a good discussion about revelation. Juni, you and I are starting off on the right foot in this thread. I hope we can continue that. Well I for one can take a hint. 
I'll enjoy the discussion gentlemen. |
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True knowledge from God, not some man. No one in the LDS Church is ever encouraged to just believe "some man". We are encouraged to search the scriptures, to ponder them, and to pray and ask the Lord what is right. We believe in personal revelation. I don't know that the Book of Mormon is true because someone else told me it is. I know it is true because I have read it and asked the Lord if it is true. And He has told me of the truth of it by the power of the Holy Ghost. That you believe that LDS just blindly follow shows that you really know nothing about us. We are nothing if not independent, free-thinking people. It is apparent that you are more interested in insulting us than you are in having an intellectually honest discussion. I don't think anybody is insulting you but I do think someone is putting some claims of the LDS under a certain amount of scrutiny. What's wrong with that? Seriously? Why don't we approach God's Word in this same way? Were is it that we go away from the Bible for verification of it's truth? Do we seek the book of Mormon or some other writing or place instead of it's own content and message? Can the book of Mormon be verified as a truthful and also a accurate account of events about an alleged prophet and what he purports that God told him about so and so on it's own merits? Where do we go with it? Back to the Bible you say? I would not be upset. I would in fact be proud and joyous to have the opportunity to defend the Word of God any day. Reason being I know if it has stood the test of many thousands of years, then it will stand up in the here and now. |
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There are several replies that I would like to address, but I am on the way out the door, and won't be able to until later today. i hope the thread doesn't get locked, because i think that we can have a good discussion about revelation. Juni, you and I are starting off on the right foot in this thread. I hope we can continue that. Yeah, lets keep it cool. Trigger, yer getting ambushed, my buddy. I wish I had the time and energy right now to go to battle with you, bro. I really honestly don't think that the Mormon bashers here actually read our posts though, my friend... It seems to keep going in circles... Here is my quick answer to the Mormon haters... We believe in the Bible, but our church is not "Bible based" in the sense that other Christian churches are run with an emphasis on disagreeing over the content of the Bible. You can hate on us all day long for relying on current revelation, but walk around your neighborhood one time, and count how many "Bible based" "Christian" churches there are... Not all of them can be "right," right? That is where revelation directly from God comes in... I too am heading out the door... |
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There are several replies that I would like to address, but I am on the way out the door, and won't be able to until later today. i hope the thread doesn't get locked, because i think that we can have a good discussion about revelation. Juni, you and I are starting off on the right foot in this thread. I hope we can continue that. Well I for one can take a hint.
I'll enjoy the discussion gentlemen. +1 for me 
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Why don't we approach God's Word in this same way? Were is it that we go away from the Bible for verification of it's truth? Do we seek the book of Mormon or some other writing or place instead of it's own content and message? Can the book of Mormon be verified as a truthful and also a accurate account of events about an alleged prophet and what he purports that God told him about so and so on it's own merits? The Lord tells us in the Bible how we may know the truth of things. THE GENERAL EPISTLE OF JAMES CHAPTER 1 5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. The Book of Mormon gives its own promise of how you can learn of its truth, if you are really interested. THE BOOK OF MORONI CHAPTER 10 3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts. 4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. |
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I really honestly don't think that the Mormon bashers here actually read our posts though, my friend... It seems to keep going in circles... I fear you are right. Being new here, I thought I would give it a chance. But I can see that this is going nowhere. "A Bible, a Bible, we have a Bible", etc. They are not interested in learning about our beliefs. They simply want to discredit what they do not understand. Good day to all. |
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There are several replies that I would like to address, but I am on the way out the door, and won't be able to until later today. i hope the thread doesn't get locked, because i think that we can have a good discussion about revelation. Juni, you and I are starting off on the right foot in this thread. I hope we can continue that. Yeah, lets keep it cool. Trigger, yer getting ambushed, my buddy. I wish I had the time and energy right now to go to battle with you, bro. I really honestly don't think that the Mormon bashers here actually read our posts though, my friend... It seems to keep going in circles... Here is my quick answer to the Mormon haters... We believe in the Bible, but our church is not "Bible based" in the sense that other Christian churches are run with an emphasis on disagreeing over the content of the Bible. You can hate on us all day long for relying on current revelation, but walk around your neighborhood one time, and count how many "Bible based" "Christian" churches there are... Not all of them can be "right," right? That is where revelation directly from God comes in... I too am heading out the door... This is what I do not understand..........why you call someone that questions your belief and trust in any book, other than, and or in addition to, the Bible........"Morman haters". I do not hate Mormans, I have never said it here or anywhere else.......in my entire life. I do not "hate".....period! I do however, feel that you may be going down the yellow brick road, if you know what I mean. If I did not love you as my Lord Jesus told me to, do you think I would be here in this "think tank" with you all. No, I would not. I would be like many so called Christians, living in their happy-go-lucky churches, staying among those that believe only what "they" believe. You did this to me in another thread when I was adressing "Catholics". Judged me, right out of the gate! And now here again......as a Morman hater. Thanks  , and God Bless.
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There are several replies that I would like to address, but I am on the way out the door, and won't be able to until later today. i hope the thread doesn't get locked, because i think that we can have a good discussion about revelation. Juni, you and I are starting off on the right foot in this thread. I hope we can continue that. Well I for one can take a hint.
I'll enjoy the discussion gentlemen. Sorry, T1NMAN. That wasn't directed at you or anyone else in particular. It is just that mormon threads tend to get fairly contentious, and end up locked. If that happens, discussion ends, and no one learns anything. It would be nice if we could keep this one going. |
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I’m just going to throw some general information out there for people who wish to do some research? Yeah, the Tinman is an objective source of Mormon theology... Yeah, he'll objectively tell "both sides" of the story fer sure... To be fair, both sides do this. No one is asking the mormons to present both sides. T1NMAN shouldn't be expected to either. And back to the good (tax) doctors original question... I have to tell, you buddy, you got me beat... Even I have not read the entire Ensign... I usually just read the First Presidency Message... I have to tell you though, as I read it looking for inspiriation and revelation for myself, my family, and those I serve, I find it very clear, precise, and powerful. I find the modern revelation when I approach it looking for it...
I think this is important. Inspiration and revelation aren't the same thing. For example, if a mormon prophet felt inspired that the members were having a problem with the WoW, and wrote a message that appeared in the Ensign, or was presented at general conference, to the effect that the members should read D&C 89 and take it to heart, follow the WoW, etc., I believe that this would be an example of inspiration. The prophet was inspired to remind the members of a particular teaching, but there is no revelation there. But like I said earlier. It might just look like the same thing over and over again... Like a lighthouse giving the same signal... But that signal is very significant, and very important.
Of course it might sound redundant, or repeated. There is power in that... Because it should. We know that it is the same church (signal, in the lighthouse analogy) that Jesus Christ established. I don't think there is a question that it is powerful. But I don't think it is revelation. |
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TaxPhd, In addition to the responses above, please be aware the LDS organization employs a concept they refer to as "milk before meat", or something along those lines, whereby they are taught it is god's will and therefore OK and even desirable to deflect the conversation into another direction or lie (or get threads locked) for the non-mormon's own good when the conversation turns toward certain subjects that relate to the true inner workings and doctrine of the organization. For example when the other thread touched on the Golden Plates, or Jesus being the spirit brother of lucifer look what happened, and look who had to bring the subjects up in the first place. So asking a straight question does not guarantee a straight answer. Of course The Apostle Paul is the author of the original statement about "milk before meat", but he never used it in the context of deliberately concealing facts. Thanks for the heads up. As an FYI, I spent 25 years in mormonism before I found my way out. I am well aware of the "milk before meat" issue. |
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OK, Shane. I have read the complete July 2009 edition. I didn't read anything there that was described as revelation. Would you please point out to me what is the revelation contained in that issue? Thanks! I am often intrigued by those that argue against the need for modern revelation even as they are witness and party to the many disputes and misunderstandings that good people have over what the words of the Bible mean. Are you replying to what I wrote? I didn't argue against the need for modern revelation. Quoted: As Latter-Day Saints, we know that any message put out by any member of the First Presidency or Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in any official capacity is revelation.
Maybe Shane can clarify, but I don't think that is the position of the mormon church. Mormon prophets and apostles have said a lot of things in their official capacity, that the church has disavowed as being revelation, or even a teaching of the church. |
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True knowledge from God, not some man. No one in the LDS Church is ever encouraged to just believe "some man". We are encouraged to search the scriptures, to ponder them, and to pray and ask the Lord what is right. We believe in personal revelation. I don't know that the Book of Mormon is true because someone else told me it is. I know it is true because I have read it and asked the Lord if it is true. And He has told me of the truth of it by the power of the Holy Ghost. This is one of the (many) reasons why I left mormonism - the complete failure of the promise in Moroni 10:4. |
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TaxPhd, In addition to the responses above, please be aware the LDS organization employs a concept they refer to as "milk before meat", or something along those lines, whereby they are taught it is god's will and therefore OK and even desirable to deflect the conversation into another direction or lie (or get threads locked) for the non-mormon's own good when the conversation turns toward certain subjects that relate to the true inner workings and doctrine of the organization. For example when the other thread touched on the Golden Plates, or Jesus being the spirit brother of lucifer look what happened, and look who had to bring the subjects up in the first place. So asking a straight question does not guarantee a straight answer. Of course The Apostle Paul is the author of the original statement about "milk before meat", but he never used it in the context of deliberately concealing facts. Thanks for the heads up. As an FYI, I spent 25 years in mormonism before I found my way out. I am well aware of the "milk before meat" issue. I would really like to hear your story, if you are willing to share. You don't have to post it here, but can email me if that would be more comfortable for you. If you don't want to share, no problem.
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There are several replies that I would like to address, but I am on the way out the door, and won't be able to until later today. i hope the thread doesn't get locked, because i think that we can have a good discussion about revelation. Juni, you and I are starting off on the right foot in this thread. I hope we can continue that. Well I for one can take a hint.
I'll enjoy the discussion gentlemen. Sorry, T1NMAN. That wasn't directed at you or anyone else in particular. It is just that mormon threads tend to get fairly contentious, and end up locked. If that happens, discussion ends, and no one learns anything. It would be nice if we could keep this one going. UN-zipping... That’s alright its all part of a vast Mormon conspiracy anyway…you think its bad now wait until Mitt Romney wins the Mormon rigged election! It’s because the CIA has been completely infiltrated by the Mormons who were once recruited for their linguistic skills. If we allow the secret Mormon and Catholic power struggle to continue us innocent Protestants will have to discover a new land to call home. Kidding!!! And had some of ya’ll going for a minute there!.....Shane was about to strike me with his magic stick! Truth of the mater is I did read a slightly…ummm…”slanted” book very much along those lines years ago… What can I say! I’ve read a lot of borderline crap over the years. It’s hard to find good factual books like the Da Vinci Code…kidding again!! And no, Mr. Romney wouldn’t be the worst selection ever….just not my first pick mind you
Well my fellow Patriots, since I cant buy you all a steak dinner I will simply wish you a great remaining weekend. Re-zipping... |
All I can think of saying is.....oh my!!!! I just spent the last couple of hours, in all love and fairness to the LDS, to educate myself on some things. Never heard about any of the "gold plates" thing, or the angel "macroni" that came down and told Joseph Smith about the plates in the ground. And, how that is where you guys got your book of Morman. And, how there were only a handful or so of "witnesses" to both the plates and the angel, and that they were all members of two families. 
I would like to know this though, simply because it is part of what I discovered on my "journey". Why do members that leave your Church, always get mistreated so badly by you?? I read in one instance where a man and his wife (business owners in the town they lived in) got run out of town by the Church! 
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I would like to know this though, simply because it is part of what I discovered on my "journey". Why do members that leave your Church, always get mistreated so badly by you?? I read in one instance where a man and his wife (business owners in the town they lived in) got run out of town by the Church! Holeee crap. I leave for a few hours, and look what happened... Plenty of Mormon love today! There is plenty to mock and hate about the Mormon church... For those who go looking for it. Joseph Smith translating the Book of Mormon from gold plates is not hard to wrap my head around... When I consider that God spoke to Moses through a "burning bush." God reveals his truth however he dang well wants to... And people can mock Moses for speaking to God through a bush, or they can mock and hate the Mormon church for recieving modern day revelation... It is all the same. Only a few people got on the Ark with Noah... That did not change the fact that he was called by God to be a living prophet... It is not a popularity contest. Just because only a *select* few could hear the prophecies of Noah did not change the fact that he had a very important message to give... And he was mocked and hated for his *unique* message as well... (Same lighthouse, same message, same haters... all through the generations....) And about the family getting "run out of town..." you have seriously got to be kidding me...? Knowing you from your posts, you are dead serious, though. There are plenty of people who have left the church for various reasons. Even back when Christ was on the earth, one of his own Apostles betrayed him... Well, it started out just going in circles, now it has turned into a good-ol-fashioned Mormon flogging.. Honestly, good (tax) doctor, I think a bit higher of you now that I know you do your footwork... We will argue (discuss, elaborate, etc) again, I am sure, my arfcom nemesis. The current Ensign has some good stuff in it that I think anyone would be hard pressed to say is not relevent to our day... And you realize that members all over the world read the same one... That is pretty cool, when you think of it. I think that is reflective of modern prophecy, and I can accept that you see it otherwise... Till next time, folks. I am still bache'n it, but I am going to leave this hot-potato (potatoe for Quale fans) alone. It is movie and junk food for me, tonight... |
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There are several replies that I would like to address, but I am on the way out the door, and won't be able to until later today. i hope the thread doesn't get locked, because i think that we can have a good discussion about revelation. Juni, you and I are starting off on the right foot in this thread. I hope we can continue that. Yeah, lets keep it cool. Trigger, yer getting ambushed, my buddy. I wish I had the time and energy right now to go to battle with you, bro. I really honestly don't think that the Mormon bashers here actually read our posts though, my friend... It seems to keep going in circles... Here is my quick answer to the Mormon haters... We believe in the Bible, but our church is not "Bible based" in the sense that other Christian churches are run with an emphasis on disagreeing over the content of the Bible. You can hate on us all day long for relying on current revelation, but walk around your neighborhood one time, and count how many "Bible based" "Christian" churches there are... Not all of them can be "right," right? That is where revelation directly from God comes in... I too am heading out the door... This is what I do not understand..........why you call someone that questions your belief and trust in any book, other than, and or in addition to, the Bible........"Morman haters". I do not hate Mormans, I have never said it here or anywhere else.......in my entire life. I do not "hate".....period! I do however, feel that you may be going down the yellow brick road, if you know what I mean. If I did not love you as my Lord Jesus told me to, do you think I would be here in this "think tank" with you all. No, I would not. I would be like many so called Christians, living in their happy-go-lucky churches, staying among those that believe only what "they" believe. You did this to me in another thread when I was adressing "Catholics". Judged me, right out of the gate! And now here again......as a Morman hater. Thanks , and God Bless.
This is the one that I had hoped you would respond to. About the other one that you did respond to though. It wasn't so much of the actual "plates" that make me go, huh, as it was all of the contraversy surroundiing who saw what and who didn't "actually" see what, or that some just felt it and saw it with a covering over it. And then, Joseph Smith saying that actually he was the only one that was allowed to actually look at them. That was what gave me the uneasy feeling. Not that someone could have discovered "plates". I read this stuff at www.irr.org |
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Quoted: From the locked "LDS Memeber " thread. . . As for modern revelation. D&C is actually a good start. But for the most current revelations I suggest reading the latest Ensign. You can go here and read the messages for free if you'd like. (The original thread was hot linked to the current issue of the mormon publication, the Ensign) OK, Shane. I have read the complete July 2009 edition. I didn't read anything there that was described as revelation. Would you please point out to me what is the revelation contained in that issue? Thanks! It is not the Lord's way to identify every word of revelation as such, and with good reason. In the same way that Christ's teaching through parables was an act of charity that helped the seekers to find but yet did not condemn those who failed to grasp the meaning, modern revelation continues to require additional study, prayer, and guidance/inspiration on a personal level to be fully understood. He who has ears to hear, let him hear. He who has eyes to see, let him see. This is the Lord's way. We have been told repeatedly that there are inspired words given by prophets in the Ensign. Now it is up to us to study, ponder, and pray to find them and apply them in our lives. So it becomes an ongoing, active process of seeking and developing our understanding. It is not passive, and never has been. If the Lord were to just point everything out and then just say it straight out, it would condemn all those not ready to live the law of the given doctrine. In this way He helps all those who do what it takes to know and understand, while at the same time not enforcing condemnation on those who are not ready or willing to receive. -grommet eta fixed spelling errors |
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Quoted: What is the law of given doctrine? By 'given doctrine' I meant the particular doctrine being taught in a talk, article, or whatever. Similar uses of the word 'given': In a given market, how are the equilibrium price and the market-clearing price related? In a given integer string, find the substring with the maximum sum. |
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Let me clarify this: The law, or laws, of which I speak are not the Law of Moses, from which Christ did, as you say, set us free. The laws I'm talking about could be about anything. For example, the law of tithing. If you pay tithing, you will be blessed both temporally and spiritually. There are various conditions and so forth about how this works. When you live according to this law, you will receive blessings. Another example is the law of the harvest. You reap what you sow. This law has a temporal meaning, with crops, and also a spiritual meaning, which is that your actions have consequences. God strives to teach each of us as much as we are ready to receive, yet He will not condemn us with spiritual knowledge that we are not prepared to live by. The point of my post was about how revelation is given and how it is to be received. As I said, God does this in a way that allows us to grow to our greatest potential as we are prepared, yet doesn't condemn us if we are not ready for the knowledge. As I said, this shows His charity and love for us. He will give us as much as we will take, but doesn't condemn us for not taking it if we are not ready. |
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Quoted: What would be a good example of not being prepared to recieve this knowledge? Quoted: I have read the complete July 2009 edition. I didn't read anything there that was described as revelation. Would you please point out to me what is the revelation contained in that issue? I have no doubt that somewhere in the July 2009 Ensign, there is truth revealed. I also have no doubt that there are probably hundreds of thousands of people who read it around the world who were prepared to receive it and did so. For example, the following words are found in that issue of the Ensign: "May we ever remember that the mantle of leadership is not the cloak of comfort but rather the robe of responsibility." One could look at that statement and take it completely at face value, asking himself something like, "What is the mantle of leadership? Is it above my fireplace? Is it above someone else's fireplace? Just where is this mantle?" Or one with experience, with the guidance of the Holy Ghost, and with the desire to serve could read that statement and understand the great depth and breadth of its true meaning and the implications of that meaning is his own calling and in his own life. This is no earth-shattering prophecy about the end of the world or the visit of a heavenly being. But it is a revealed truth, one which, to me, is a different and useful way of looking at leadership. Line upon line, precept upon precept. (Isaiah 28:13) Like the vast majority of the rest of God's word. He who has ears to hear, let him hear. He who has eyes to see, let him see. -grommet |
Taxphd starts one troll thread that gets locked...so he starts another troll thread?!!! Hey Taxphd, if you don't believe that the LDS Church has actual prophets or apostles (or as you suggested in the locked thread: you are personally convinced that they're wrong and know it and that they are somehow compensating) then how on earth are you going to consider anything they say as revelation from God? 
Not much sense in participating in this troll thread anymore. 
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And what is the ''revealed truth'' in the july issue if the ''Ensign'', and what does it have to say about the end time revelation in and according to the Bible? Do they match up and agree with one another or are there discrepancies between the two? I believe the question is a valid one.
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Quoted: Quoted: And what is the ''revealed truth'' in the july issue if the ''Ensign'', and what does it have to say about the end time revelation in and according to the Bible? Do they match up and agree with one another or are there discrepancies between the two? I believe the question is a valid one.The question is not valid in the context of the OP question, which was about revelation in general, not specifically about end time revelations in and according to the Bible. It is valid if you think that every single revelation given to the entire world with millions of complex issues happening everywhere every day has to be about only one single subject. News flash - there are revelations given about all kinds of different subject matter. And as I have pointed out as clearly as I possibly could, it is not for one person to do all the studying, praying, and so forth to figure out what the revelations are and what they mean, and then lay them out on a silver platter for everyone else who are not willing to do what it takes to know for themselves. If you want to know what truth is revealed in the Ensign, read it. Study it. Pray about it. It has been repeated many times in the Bible - Seek, and ye shall find. Knock, and it shall be opened unto you. I can't tell you any more than this. If you just don't want to know, then I can't help you. -grommet |
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And what is the ''revealed truth'' in the july issue if the ''Ensign'', and what does it have to say about the end time revelation in and according to the Bible? Do they match up and agree with one another or are there discrepancies between the two? I believe the question is a valid one.
The question is not valid in the context of the OP question, which was about revelation in general, not specifically about end time revelations in and according to the Bible. It is valid if you think that every single revelation given to the entire world with millions of complex issues happening everywhere every day has to be about only one single subject. News flash - there are revelations given about all kinds of different subject matter. And as I have pointed out as clearly as I possibly could, it is not for one person to do all the studying, praying, and so forth to figure out what the revelations are and what they mean, and then lay them out on a silver platter for everyone else who are not willing to do what it takes to know for themselves. If you want to know what truth is revealed in the Ensign, read it. Study it. Pray about it. It has been repeated many times in the Bible - Seek, and ye shall find. Knock, and it shall be opened unto you. I can't tell you any more than this. If you just don't want to know, then I can't help you. -grommet If someone asks me to share my faith pertaining to a specific question (the book of Revelation and the end times) I would gladly share. You do not want to share what your faith has to say about these things? |
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And what is the ''revealed truth'' in the july issue if the ''Ensign'', and what does it have to say about the end time revelation in and according to the Bible? Do they match up and agree with one another or are there discrepancies between the two? I believe the question is a valid one.
The question is not valid in the context of the OP question, which was about revelation in general, not specifically about end time revelations in and according to the Bible. It is valid if you think that every single revelation given to the entire world with millions of complex issues happening everywhere every day has to be about only one single subject. News flash - there are revelations given about all kinds of different subject matter. And as I have pointed out as clearly as I possibly could, it is not for one person to do all the studying, praying, and so forth to figure out what the revelations are and what they mean, and then lay them out on a silver platter for everyone else who are not willing to do what it takes to know for themselves. If you want to know what truth is revealed in the Ensign, read it. Study it. Pray about it. It has been repeated many times in the Bible - Seek, and ye shall find. Knock, and it shall be opened unto you. I can't tell you any more than this. If you just don't want to know, then I can't help you. -grommet If someone asks me to share my faith pertaining to a specific question (the book of Revelation and the end times) I would gladly share. You do not want to share what your faith has to say about these things? He already addressed it. I'll even provide a link for you.http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&vgnextoid=a6246a008952b010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: And what is the ''revealed truth'' in the july issue if the ''Ensign'', and what does it have to say about the end time revelation in and according to the Bible? Do they match up and agree with one another or are there discrepancies between the two? I believe the question is a valid one.The question is not valid in the context of the OP question, which was about revelation in general, not specifically about end time revelations in and according to the Bible. It is valid if you think that every single revelation given to the entire world with millions of complex issues happening everywhere every day has to be about only one single subject. News flash - there are revelations given about all kinds of different subject matter. And as I have pointed out as clearly as I possibly could, it is not for one person to do all the studying, praying, and so forth to figure out what the revelations are and what they mean, and then lay them out on a silver platter for everyone else who are not willing to do what it takes to know for themselves. If you want to know what truth is revealed in the Ensign, read it. Study it. Pray about it. It has been repeated many times in the Bible - Seek, and ye shall find. Knock, and it shall be opened unto you. I can't tell you any more than this. If you just don't want to know, then I can't help you. -grommet If someone asks me to share my faith pertaining to a specific question (the book of Revelation and the end times) I would gladly share. You do not want to share what your faith has to say about these things? He already addressed it. I'll even provide a link for you.http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&vgnextoid=a6246a008952b010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD This. Please carefully re-read the OP. It is asking about revelation in general. Small r, not Revelation, as in: "The Book of Revelation". Now go and carefully re-read my posts. Basically what is happening here is that diversionary questions about a (misunderstood) word or phrase are being asked, while the substance of the various responses has been largely ignored. The fundamental point here is that revelation is not always obvious, and it's a two-way street. It depends as much on the receiver as it does on the giver. And this is done to protect the ones who don't understand what is being revealed from being condemned. With obviously and necessarily good reason. |
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Hey Taxphd, if you don't believe that the LDS Church has actual prophets or apostles (or as you suggested in the locked thread: you are personally convinced that they're wrong and know it and that they are somehow compensating) then how on earth are you going to consider anything they say as revelation from God? I suggested no such thing. The locked thread was a reasonable discussion on the nature of testimonies. There was nothing about mormons in that thread, until mormons brought it up. Not much sense in participating in this troll thread anymore.
This is rich. You tell me that I can find current revelation in the Ensign. I read the Ensign, and I didn't find any revelation, so I ask for you to point out the revelation to me. You are away from the thread for a while, but we have been having a nice discussion about the topic. Responses to my question have varied, and what has been described as revelation appears to be more along the lines of inspired writing, rather than revelation, but is certainly open to discussion. It's what this thread is about. But you refuse to point out the revelation in what you told me to read, and then accuse me of being a troll? If you have something positive to contribute, please do so. If you are unwilling to answer reasonable questions about claims you have made, so be it. It is to be expected. But your troll accusation is baseless. |