Posted: 11/30/2005 6:05:59 PM EDT
|
..Judgement with no wrath? I will tell you all why I ask this later. I just want to see some answers from you guys, dont worry about copy and pasting apocalyptic or end times scripture, I am familiar with. See if you can answer this with out diving into The Bible. Curious to see what some of us here think. Chris |
|
My first inclination is to say 'yes'; Judgement with wrath would be venegance. Judgement without wrath would be......well, judgement has to be without wrath, by definition. I honestly believe God wants everyone to be saved...even the Adolf Hitlers and Ted Kennedys of the world. With that, I honestly believe that it breaks God's heart to 'judge' people. |
Bloody hell...I agree with annoyingarowneragain. Well, the first two sentences...so all is good. |
Agreed. Arowneragain shows real wisdom in this. |
I have part of me that dissagree's with you. First, what I do agree with: I do agree that God wants salvation for all, no matter whom they are or what they have done. I do agree that it saddens God as well. I do not think that God can Judge with no wrath, or at least he has not yet. Here is why I think this. God has always judged entire nations, weather it be Egypt or Isreal, it has all been the entire, ie 1st born sons or droughts. When God has judged individuals, such as in the land owners in Acts, that judgement came with death to those who lied about their giving. If we have accepted Jesus Christ as our savior and moved into a personal relationship with the Lord, shall we be Judged? Or saved from Judgement? If not, what happens to those who have refused to accept Jesus Christ as savior when judgement comes?..... Anyone follow me? |
Of course we'll be judged. "Justice", referred to as an eternal principle, cannot be denied. However, those who accept Jesus and do all they can to follow Him will receive the benefit of "Mercy" (another eternal principle) which can satisfy the demands of justice. It's either suffer for your own sins, or repent and allow Christ's self sacrifice to appease Justice. |
I guess that to my way of thinking, God's wrath is reserved not for the garden-variety sinners, but for nations who come against Israel, those who formally engage in things that are specifically counter to God's plans (i.e. those who take the mark of the beast..) and so forth. Judgement just implies (again, to me...) that someone died under the law, and will be punished according to the sum of their sinfulness.
I personally believe in two separate judgments. The Great White Throne for non-believers - which won't be pleasant - and the Judgement Seat of Christ, where we, as believers, will be 'judged' for our works, or lack thereof. The latter will determine our reward in Heaven.
Honestly, I'm not sure, if you're asking in the context of whether their punishment (Hell; I really believe that) will qualify as wrath or judgement. I generally lean towards 'judgment', and I think it happens thusly: To determine guilt, I believe the non-believer will be confronted with the times they have rejected the Gosepl, or seen God's hand work somehow in their life yet refused to seek Him further. To determine punishment, sin and its consequences will be weighed. On that latter part, that's just a guess on my part. I assume that: 1) Some will suffer more in hell than others, and 2) He who suffers the very least will still have a miserable million years or so..... Eternity is a hard concept to wrap your mind around.  Likewise, the concept of perfect, infinite wrath is hard to wrap my mind around. Where does judgement end, and wrath begin? I suppose the answer is that wrath begins when God starts to 'take it personal'. Of course, by the same token, I think God takes everything personal to begin with. Hmmm...now you've got me headed towards wrath being more prevalent than judgement. <---stumbles when he tries to build a box to properly encompass God. _____coming back after a few minutes_______ Ok, hold on. I'm looking at this wrong. Judgement is just a matter of impartially determining whether one receives mercy, or wrath. Judgement is the process. Wrath (or mercy) is the result. One could call judgment the 'trial', and wrath the 'sentence'. Unless, of course, the defendant pleads the only affirmative defense there is - Jesus Christ - in which case the sentence is already served. I suppose the important thing to remember is that 1) Our life - every breath, every day, every word - is preparation for this trial date. 2) Each and every one of us will be found guilty. 3) The only way out is Jesus Christ. I still think judgement breaks God's heart, knowing that so many of His children are going to be found guilty.... |
|
I am finding the less we try to do that, the eaiser God is to understand.
)/ or came?
|
Everyday that someone denies the Lord, they are passing judgment on themselves. The wrath of the judgment and punishment were decided long ago, the choice to allow the vengance for that judgment was paid for on the cross. We are all guilty, but do we take the judgment or the Savior of that judgment? I try not to question God, nothing I come up with could possibly be the correct answer. Some people are angry that He does not work things out the way they want them to be, and they decide he either does not exsist, or He does not care. God cannot lie, and things have to be the way they are, to come out to His perfect intention, for each of us, and the entire universe. |
Forgive me for not providing a scriptural reference. I did a Google Search on 'degrees of hell', and here's one of the first links that pops up: www.rationalchristianity.net/hell.html. I won't say I agree or disagree with it. I don't know who wrote it, where they were coming from, or whether they have 'rightly divided' scripture. But it passes the initial 'smell test', and seems to have scriptural backing. I've always assumed that hell wasn't the same for everyone. The Bible makes it clear that Heaven won't be the same for everyone, so I have assumed that Hell is the same....
The boldest theological statement ever made : "I don't know". How often do you hear it, though?
I'd say it is a constant process. I'd also say it's impossible to read the OT without being made very aware that God isn't just this warm-and-fuzzy benevolent 'grandpa' figure who is amused by His children's behavior. (Which reminds me that I still have a long way to go, and need to attend to that posthaste...) As for as God judging without wrath.....don't forget that business with sending His Son to die for our sorry butts' sins.....I'm not sure what box to put that in here, though. Was that mercy and grace because of judgement, or in spite of judgement? I believe it was the latter; nobody 'earned' the grace he showed us on the cross. Final thought on this question:
Has any single nation or person ever been judged deserving of mercy? Maybe the reason God's judgment always leads to wrath is because (and this is surely true) God's children are always guilty as can be, of most every crime in the book. <--rotten, knows it, and awful glad God looks down on me and sees the Blood of Jesus, not my sins. (That per se is mercy, which is basically a reversal of judgment...) Had Jeremiah been able to find a single righteous man, God would have spared the entire city. There are other similar examples - Sodom comes to mind - where God wanted to give mercy to many because of positive judgment for a few.
Yes, yes, and yes. How many times in your life have you taken a small step on faith? Remember the scene in Indiana Jones when he has to cross the fissure in the earth, and he steps out into space only to have the stone rise up to meet his feet? Figuratively, I think we've all did that - scripture moves us to do something that conventional wisdom tells us NOT to do, and we're pleasantly surprised (if not genuinely awed!) when God 'catches' us. I can genuinely say that there have been times in my life that I was scared, but 'did the right thing' and was greatly rewarded just by feeling God's presence.
The 'trial' analogy is just a matter of putting it in terms we can understand. Life is the trial. The judgment, and the evidence supporting it, will (I think) all happen in the blink of an eye, when every knee bows, every tongue confesses.
Free Will. Satan CHOSE to fall, out of pride. And I honestly believe God gave us free will (I lean pretty strongly towards being arminian) so that He could see the process of His sheep being separated from the goats. But this is also one of those areas where we try to build a box around God. He's bigger than that. I believe He knows every bit of the future, but enjoys seeing it play out. Analogy: Everyone who saw the movie 'Titanic' knew how it would end before they went to the theater. (duh....) Some people enjoyed watching how it played out. Yes, they enjoyed it. Even when they were bawling their eyes out over the tragedy involved (here, I must admit that I failed to grasp the tragedy involved in such bad actors drowning  ), they still enjoyed watching it unfold.I think that in a way, that gives us a glimpse (but most definitely not the whole picture) of God's nature. He love us, but also wants to see things 'played out' on earth. Remember, we were put here for His pleasure. He could have just as easily dispensed with the whole 'earth' process, and fast-forwarded to Heaven. Why didn't He? Like you said, He isn't bound by time. An old baptist preacher/comedian from south MS once told the story of a hog farmer who was going to save a few dollars transporting his hogs to market by taking a really, really, really slow path to the market at a greatly reduced cost (forgive me for not remembering the details..). His freind confronted him: "Think of the time, man, think of the time!". The farmer replied: "man, what's time to a hog?" God is like that in a way, I suppose. He's no slave to a clock. Maybe He allows the 'competition' for entertainment, to give His children a sense of purpose, to weed out His sheep from the goats....... Truth be known, I think life is for our benefit more than his. The vilest sinner, who hits his knees in realization of his need for a Savior, will appreciate Heaven much more than someone who just strolled up to the gate and walked right in. Case in point: Satan was cast out of Heaven, because he got all uppity and forgot Who made him and just how good he had things, and why. That's the nature of pride. Going through life on earth will, when it's over, leave us disabused of any notion that we have a right to be proud of anything we are or anything we did. 
|