Posted: 12/13/2011 12:12:57 PM EDT
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There are 3 accounts of this prophecy given by Jesus, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. To understand Matthew 24, we will line them up side by side. However, Matthew 24 must be understood in the context of Matthew 23, where Jesus rails against Jerusalem with:
23:13 “But woe to you, experts in the law and you Pharisees, hypocrites! You keep locking people out of the kingdom of heaven! For you neither enter nor permit those trying to enter to go in.
23:16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple is bound by nothing. But whoever swears by the gold of the temple is bound by the oath.’ There is a whole lot more, but for the sake of brevity, that's enough. He ends Chapter 23 with: 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those who are sent to you! How often I have longed to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you would have none of it! 23:38 Look, your house is left to you desolate! 23:39 For I tell you, you will not see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in the name of the Lord!’”
Note that Matthew 21 was Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem where they did cry ‘Blessed is the one who comes in the name of the Lord!’. Since that is a past event, we can therefore conclude the end of Matt 23:39 is looking towards an event in the future, and since the described event hasn’t happened yet, it is future even to us. ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––- The Destruction of the Temple Matthew 24:1 Now as Jesus was going out of the temple courts and walking away, his disciples came to show him the temple buildings. 24:2 And he said to them, “Do you see all these things? I tell you the truth, not one stone will be left on another. All will be torn down!”
Mark 13:1 Now as Jesus was going out of the temple courts, one of his disciples said to him, “Teacher, look at these tremendous stones and buildings!” 13:2 Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left on another. All will be torn down!” Luke 21:5 Now while some were speaking about the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and offerings, Jesus said, 21:6 “As for these things that you are gazing at, the days will come when not one stone will be left on another. All will be torn down!” Not one of the temple stones will stand on another. That is pretty specific. And it happened in AD70 when the Romans put down a revolution and demolished the place. More on this later. To the Apostles who were all Jewish, this is not some minor event. The temple was important to the very fabric of their society. They ate what the priests at the temple said was OK to eat. They wore what the guys at the temple said was OK to wear. To say the temple would be destroyed would be of immeasurable importance to them. Being human, they asked the same questions normal people would ask. See the next verses. |
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The Apostles Questions
Matthew 24:3 As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, his disciples came to him privately and said, “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
Mark 13:3 So while he was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked him privately, 13:4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that all these things are about to take place?” Luke 21:7 So they asked him, “Teacher, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that these things are about to take place?” The questions are helpful in understanding the passage. Matthew has the more complete text, but he is also reporting from a Jewish perspective. When will these things happen? (I.e. the destruction of the temple)
What will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age? Note the variation in questions; Luke and Mark have a shorter question. Furthermore, the apostles hadn’t grasped the fact that Jesus was going to the cross, it would be wrong believe in the assumptions behind their question. They seem to link the sign of Jesus’ coming with the end of the age (that would be the temple worship age). |
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Signs of the End of the Age
Matthew 24:4 Jesus answered them, “Watch out that no one misleads you. 24:5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will mislead many. 24:6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars. Make sure that you are not alarmed, for this must happen, but the end is still to come. 24:7 For nation will rise up in arms against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 24:8 All these things are the beginning of birth pains.
Mark 13:5 Jesus began to say to them, “Watch out that no one misleads you. 13:6 Many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and they will mislead many. 13:7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. 13:8 For nation will rise up in arms against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and there will be famines. These are but the beginning of birth pains. Luke 21:8 He said, “Watch out that you are not misled. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them! 21:9 And when you hear of wars and rebellions, do not be afraid. For these things must happen first, but the end will not come at once.” 21:10 Then he said to them, “Nation will rise up in arms against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 21:11 There will be great earthquakes, and famines and plagues in various places, and there will be terrifying sights and great signs from heaven. Wars and famines will precede the destruction of the Temple. A Roman Empire wide famine took place in around AD42-48 and was predicted by Agabus in Acts 11:28. Furthermoe, there are several passages in the NT regarding famine relief for Judea. Regarding the wars, Rome was involved in multiple wars against the Sassanids and Parthians to the East of Israel (area of Iran, Iraq, and Kuwait), Rome was also conquering Thrace (in the area of Romania and Bulgaria), and was also conquering Britain at this time in history. The wars and famines are but the beginning of birth pains leading to some event. What event? Go back to the original question and see: The destruction of the temple. Jesus hasn’t changed the subject yet to his return. |
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Persecution of Disciples
Matthew 24:9 “Then they will hand you over to be persecuted and will kill you. You will be hated by all the nations because of my name. 24:10 Then many will be led into sin, and they will betray one another and hate one another. 24:11 And many false prophets will appear and deceive many, 24:12 and because lawlessness will increase so much, the love of many will grow cold. 24:13 But the person who endures to the end will be saved. 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole inhabited earth as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Mark 13:9 “You must watch out for yourselves. You will be handed over to councils and beaten in the synagogues. You will stand before governors and kings because of me, as a witness to them. 13:10 First the gospel must be preached to all nations. 13:11 When they arrest you and hand you over for trial, do not worry about what to speak. But say whatever is given you at that time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit. 13:12 Brother will hand over brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rise against parents and have them put to death. 13:13 You will be hated by everyone because of my name. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. Luke 21:12 But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you, handing you over to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and governors because of my name. 21:13 This will be a time for you to serve as witnesses. 21:14 Therefore be resolved not to rehearse ahead of time how to make your defense. 21:15 For I will give you the words along with the wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict. 21:16 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives, and friends, and they will have some of you put to death. 21:17 You will be hated by everyone because of my name. 21:18 Yet not a hair of your head will perish. 21:19 By your endurance you will gain your lives. The remaining of the 12 would receive the Comforter/Paraclete (see John 15-17 and Acts 1-2), they would be handed over and killed. The gospel will reach the whole world. And then the end will come. Breaking out the ole history book, we can see that indeed that many of the apostles were persecuted and killed prior to the destruction of the temple. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaths_of_the_Twelve_Apostles#Deaths_of_the_Twelve_Apostles Furthermore, we know that the gospel had reached the whole world: Colossians 1:23 if indeed you remain in the faith, established and firm, without shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard. This gospel has also been preached in all creation under heaven, and I, Paul, have become its servant.
And then the end will come. What end? The end that the apostles asked about, the destruction of the Temple of course. |
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The Abomination of Desolation
Matthew 24:15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation – spoken about by Daniel the prophet – standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 24:16 then those in Judea must flee to the mountains. 24:17 The one on the roof must not come down to take anything out of his house, 24:18 and the one in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 24:19 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing their babies in those days! 24:20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 24:21 For then there will be great suffering unlike anything that has happened from the beginning of the world until now, or ever will happen. 24:22 And if those days had not been cut short, no one would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Mark 13:14 “But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains. 13:15 The one on the roof must not come down or go inside to take anything out of his house. 13:16 The one in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 13:17 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing their babies in those days! 13:18 Pray that it may not be in winter. 13:19 For in those days there will be suffering unlike anything that has happened from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, or ever will happen. 13:20 And if the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would be saved. But because of the elect, whom he chose, he has cut them short. Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21:21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Those who are inside the city must depart. Those who are out in the country must not enter it, 21:22 because these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 21:23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing their babies in those days! For there will be great distress on the earth and wrath against this people. 21:24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led away as captives among all nations. Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. So what is the abomination of desolation? We go over to Luke and see it is coming near when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies. At that time then the believers are to flee into the mountains. We break out the ole history book and we read what happened. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jewish-Roman_War In AD 66 AD, the Jews revolted against Roman rule and General Vespasian was sent in to crush it. He was successful and in AD68 he surrounded Jerusalem. However trouble in Rome called him away (the trouble was known as “The year of 4 Emperors”). This left time for Jewish Christians who hadn’t gone back to Judaism (a.k.a. endured) to flee to the mountains. In AD70 former general and now Emperor Vespasian sent his son Titus to finish the job. Which Titus did well. There were 1.1 million dead Jews and Jerusalem, including the Temple, was taken to the foundations. Note how Luke ends that part of the passage: “. Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled” Where does that put us on the ole prophetic clock preceding the next event. |
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Warnings
Matthew 24:23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe him. 24:24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 24:25 Remember, I have told you ahead of time. 24:26 So then, if someone says to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe him. 24:27 For just like the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. 24:28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
Mark 13:21 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe him. 13:22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, the elect. 13:23 Be careful! I have told you everything ahead of time. Here Jesus is moving to the second question: “What will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” He explains that his return will be visible to all. There will be no private return of Jesus. |
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The Arrival of the Son of Man
Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the suffering of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven will be shaken. 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man arriving on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 24:31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:24 “But in those days, after that suffering, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light; 13:25 the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 13:26 Then everyone will see the Son of Man arriving in the clouds with great power and glory. 13:27 Then he will send angels and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven. Luke 21:25 “And there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth nations will be in distress, anxious over the roaring of the sea and the surging waves. 21:26 People will be fainting from fear and from the expectation of what is coming on the world, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 21:27 Then they will see the Son of Man arriving in a cloud with power and great glory. 21:28 But when these things begin to happen, stand up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” After the times of the Gentiles in Jerusalem are over, there will be no warning of the return of Jesus. All of the tribes of the earth will morn. |
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The Parable of the Fig Tree
Matthew 24:32 “Learn this parable from the fig tree: Whenever its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 24:33 So also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near, right at the door. 24:34 I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
Mark 13:28 “Learn this parable from the fig tree: Whenever its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 13:29 So also you, when you see these things happening, know that he is near, right at the door. 13:30 I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 13:31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. Luke 21:29 Then he told them a parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the other trees. 21:30 When they sprout leaves, you see for yourselves and know that summer is now near. 21:31 So also you, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 21:32 I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 21:33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. Note that just as you know when a fig tree puts out leaves, summer is near, when you see the signs mentioned earlier, the end is near. What end? Go back to the original question: the end of the Temple. |
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More Details in the Return
Matthew 24:36 “But as for that day and hour no one knows it – not even the angels in heaven – except the Father alone. 24:37 For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. 24:38 For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. 24:39 And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man. 24:40 Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one left. 24:41 There will be two women grinding grain with a mill; one will be taken and one left. 24:42 “Therefore stay alert, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 24:43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have been alert and would not have let his house be broken into. 24:44 Therefore you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
Mark 13:32 “But as for that day or hour no one knows it – neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son – except the Father. 13:33 Watch out! Stay alert! For you do not know when the time will come. 13:34 It is like a man going on a journey. He left his house and put his slaves in charge, assigning to each his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to stay alert. 13:35 Stay alert, then, because you do not know when the owner of the house will return – whether during evening, at midnight, when the rooster crows, or at dawn – 13:36 or else he might find you asleep when he returns suddenly. 13:37 What I say to you I say to everyone: Stay alert!” Luke 21:34 “But be on your guard so that your hearts are not weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of this life, and that day close down upon you suddenly like a trap. 21:35 For it will overtake all who live on the face of the whole earth. 21:36 But stay alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that must happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.” 21:37 So every day Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, but at night he went and stayed on the Mount of Olives. 21:38 And all the people came to him early in the morning to listen to him in the temple courts. Jesus reiterates, there will be no warning when he returns. In summary, the answers to the apostles’ questions are: When will these things happen? (I.e. the destruction of the temple)
The temple will be destroyed shortly after the Romans surround the city the first time. That is when you should flee. What will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age? The end of the age portion is a red herring, the age ends with the destruction of the temple. There will be no warning when Jesus returns. |
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So when I read the Gospels I keep coming back to this. This generation shall not pass till all these things are done. Not exact quote but pretty close, it allways has tripped me up. The parable of the fig tree above. Jesus was right, the Temple was destroyed 40 years after he gave those words. 
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You mean I'm not the only Realized Millenialist here? I'm a historicist. However, previously my pastors used to get all gloomy and doomy that this passage meant the end of the world was coming. When the three versions are compared in context, the passage makes complete sense and the gloomy/doomy stuff already happened. (except for the return of Jesus) |
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So when do we get the lightning from the East to the West? Matthew 24:27 For just like the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so the coming of the Son of Man will be.
I read that as The Son of Man’s coming will be sudden and obvious like lightning. It won't be unnoticed. There won't be any lightning going from East to the West. |
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So when do we get the lightning from the East to the West? Matthew 24:27 For just like the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so the coming of the Son of Man will be.
I read that as The Son of Man’s coming will be sudden and obvious like lightning. It won't be unnoticed. There won't be any lightning going from East to the West. I realize it is a metaphor, It was just a question. i dont now squat about Post Millinist thought but it has allways made me question my position. Cool thread. Edit How do you reconcile the visions of Daniel and of th Book of Revalation? |
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There are 3 accounts of this prophecy given by Jesus, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. To understand Matthew 24, we will line them up side by side. However, Matthew 24 must be understood in the context of Matthew 23, where Jesus rails against Jerusalem with: 23:13 “But woe to you, experts in the law and you Pharisees, hypocrites! You keep locking people out of the kingdom of heaven! For you neither enter nor permit those trying to enter to go in.
23:16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple is bound by nothing. But whoever swears by the gold of the temple is bound by the oath.’ There is a whole lot more, but for the sake of brevity, that's enough. He ends Chapter 23 with: 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those who are sent to you! How often I have longed to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you would have none of it! 23:38 Look, your house is left to you desolate! 23:39 For I tell you, you will not see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in the name of the Lord!’”
Note that Matthew 21 was Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem where they did cry ‘Blessed is the one who comes in the name of the Lord!’. Since that is a past event, we can therefore conclude the end of Matt 23:39 is looking towards an event in the future, and since the described event hasn’t happened yet, it is future even to us. ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––- The Destruction of the Temple Matthew 24:1 Now as Jesus was going out of the temple courts and walking away, his disciples came to show him the temple buildings. 24:2 And he said to them, “Do you see all these things? I tell you the truth, not one stone will be left on another. All will be torn down!”
Mark 13:1 Now as Jesus was going out of the temple courts, one of his disciples said to him, “Teacher, look at these tremendous stones and buildings!” 13:2 Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left on another. All will be torn down!” Luke 21:5 Now while some were speaking about the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and offerings, Jesus said, 21:6 “As for these things that you are gazing at, the days will come when not one stone will be left on another. All will be torn down!” Not one of the temple stones will stand on another. That is pretty specific. And it happened in AD70 when the Romans put down a revolution and demolished the place. More on this later. To the Apostles who were all Jewish, this is not some minor event. The temple was important to the very fabric of their society. They ate what the priests at the temple said was OK to eat. They wore what the guys at the temple said was OK to wear. To say the temple would be destroyed would be of immeasurable importance to them. Being human, they asked the same questions normal people would ask. See the next verses. No wonder your confused, MANY a stone stands firm and are in place to this day, like a hole wall. Some little Roman crackpot general did not do what God will in the future. that will happen Revelation 16:17-21 Why, because God brings the new city with him when he returns (Revelation 21:2), and you probably miss the point that Christ is our temple and that was rebuilt in 3 days.... again think about it. |
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Why, because God brings the new city with him when he returns (Revelation 21:2), and you probably miss the point that Christ is our temple and that was rebuilt in 3 days.... again think about it.
As long as we're talking about Judgement Day we're in agreement. EVERY Biblical prophecy has been fulfilled EXCEPT ONE, and that is His return when He calls His Kingdom home. All of Scripture is inspired and inerrant (2 Tim. 3:16). This includes the book of Revelation since Revelation 22:18-19 says that God will judge anyone who adds or subtracts anything from this book. Just because the book of Revelation uses many symbols and allegories to teach spiritual truths doesn't mean it is any less inspired. When Jesus says, "I am the Vine," he wants us to think of him, not as an actual grapevine with leaves on him, but that he gives spiritual life to people just like a grapevine gives life to the leaves and helps produce grapes as fruit. The many symbols in the book of Revelation teach spiritual truths in the same way. The pictures of suffering and death in the world remind us that we enter heaven only after we have passed through the many tribulations of this life. The many pictures of heaven in Revelation remind us that the glory of heaven can't be compared with anything we have in this life. All of the book of Revelation is inspired and is to be interpreted in keeping with its symbolic language just like Psalm 23 or the metaphors and parables that Jesus spoke. . |
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No wonder your confused, MANY a stone stands firm and are in place to this day, like a hole wall. Some little Roman crackpot general did not do what God will in the future. that will happen Revelation 16:17-21 Why, because God brings the new city with him when he returns (Revelation 21:2), and you probably miss the point that Christ is our temple and that was rebuilt in 3 days.... again think about it. How am I confused? If you have a competing theory, please harmonize it with the rest of the passage and explain it to us. -Why must those in Judea flee? -Why should they worry about it being the sabath? -Why would we have to worry about the persecution of the disciples? |
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Edit How do you reconcile the visions of Daniel and of th Book of Revalation? There is the statue, Babylon, Medeo-Persia, Greece, Rome, leading to fragmented Rome (current Europe). The statue is a timeline of history, except that the picture has it standing again when to be destroyed by the stone cut without hands. So we have to look to who fulfills the symbols now. Babylon is described in revelation (the head), Persia is rising again (can possibly be interpreted as militant Islam), Greece (possibly interpreted as the Russian sphere), and we have Europe reuniting (Rome). We have the Beast with 10 heads, it is in Revelation, it has varously 7 and 10 crowns that change location. it is a description of the Roman empire as it changes through history. (the subject of a different thread) |
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Why do you think the events will only happen once ,the temple well be destroyed more than once. I don't know if you have notice but Christianity is being muzzled more and more in some places you can not even say Marry Christmas and I would like some one to find Separation of Church and State in Constitution its not in there. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." is in there ,but Separation of Church and State keeps coming up and that was in a unofficial letter by Thomas Jefferson. Political Correctness and Separation of Church and State is just away to stop Christians from talking about Jesus ,and praying in front of non-believers Shame is about gone sin is becoming the right thing to do ,and its everywhere I'm still trying to figure out why little girls are starting to walk around half naked it's not cute. I cant' even watch half the stuff on t.v ,we had the 450package now I have the 350package ,and my wife is getting sick of that ,why would we be entertained by smut . I'm 31 ,and I remember pg13 from when I was a child ,it's nothing like it is now. The signs of the times are showing up and we have been in them for sometime now. Sodom and Gomorrah where warned before destruction , Nineveh was warned ,Noah warned about the flood for 100 year's before the destruction of the world. We where given signs to look out for ,have you read the book of Isiah? he talks about the end time also.
Isaiah 5:21 21.Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! |
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Why do you think the events will only happen once ,the temple well be destroyed more than once. Scripture reference? Quoted:
I don't know if you have notice but Christianity is being muzzled more and more in some places you can not even say Marry Christmas... Perhaps God is figuring out who is his and who is not. Tried faith is more precious than Gold and will bring praise and Glory to Jesus (1 Peter 1:7). Isaiah 5:21 21.Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! Yep. |
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Why do you think the events will only happen once ,the temple well be destroyed more than once. Scripture reference? Quoted:
I don't know if you have notice but Christianity is being muzzled more and more in some places you can not even say Marry Christmas... Perhaps God is figuring out who is his and who is not. Tried faith is more precious than Gold and will bring praise and Glory to Jesus (1 Peter 1:7). Isaiah 5:21 21.Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! Yep. Is there not always warning before destruction? |
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Why do you think the events will only happen once ,the temple well be destroyed more than once. Scripture reference? Quoted:
I don't know if you have notice but Christianity is being muzzled more and more in some places you can not even say Marry Christmas... Perhaps God is figuring out who is his and who is not. Tried faith is more precious than Gold and will bring praise and Glory to Jesus (1 Peter 1:7). Isaiah 5:21 21.Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! Yep. Is there not always warning before destruction? Besides the Ark, there was nothing for Noah's generation as Jesus says in Matt 24:38 (Presumably Noah warned all he could). There is none recorded for Sodom and Gomorrah. |
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Why do you think the events will only happen once ,the temple well be destroyed more than once. Scripture reference? Quoted:
I don't know if you have notice but Christianity is being muzzled more and more in some places you can not even say Marry Christmas... Perhaps God is figuring out who is his and who is not. Tried faith is more precious than Gold and will bring praise and Glory to Jesus (1 Peter 1:7). Isaiah 5:21 21.Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! Yep. Is there not always warning before destruction? Besides the Ark, there was nothing for Noah's generation as Jesus says in Matt 24:38 (Presumably Noah warned all he could). There is none recorded for Sodom and Gomorrah. What was Lot doing in Sodom and Gomorrah? |
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Is there not always warning before destruction? Besides the Ark, there was nothing for Noah's generation as Jesus says in Matt 24:38 (Presumably Noah warned all he could). There is none recorded for Sodom and Gomorrah. What was Lot doing in Sodom and Gomorrah? Apparently acting as some sort of official (Genesis 19:1) and living in torment over the debauched lifestyle seen around him (2 Peter 2:7) |
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Is there not always warning before destruction? Besides the Ark, there was nothing for Noah's generation as Jesus says in Matt 24:38 (Presumably Noah warned all he could). There is none recorded for Sodom and Gomorrah. What was Lot doing in Sodom and Gomorrah? Apparently acting as some sort of official (Genesis 19:1) and living in torment over the debauched lifestyle seen around him (2 Peter 2:7) What did Lot plea to the men before the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah? He knew something they didn't. |
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What did Lot plea to the men before the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah? He knew something they didn't. Yes, he knew who the messengers were and could conclude what the messengers were going to do. That hardly mattered to Sodom and Gomorrah and only mattered to righteous Lot, his wife, and two daughters. Furthermore, Lot had to be righteous long before they arrived in order to be saved. He didn't get a warning to shape up beforehand. When the messengers arrived, Sodom and Gamorrah were already judged and already doomed. The fate of those cities was decided when the messengers were negotiating with Abraham. You've dodged my question below: Quoted:
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Why do you think the events will only happen once ,the temple well be destroyed more than once. Scripture reference? |
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What did Lot plea to the men before the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah? He knew something they didn't. Yes, he knew who the messengers were and could conclude what the messengers were going to do. That hardly mattered to Sodom and Gomorrah and only mattered to righteous Lot, his wife, and two daughters. Furthermore, Lot had to be righteous long before they arrived in order to be saved. He didn't get a warning to shape up beforehand. When the messengers arrived, Sodom and Gamorrah were already judged and already doomed. The fate of those cities was decided when the messengers were negotiating with Abraham. You've dodged my question below: Quoted:
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Why do you think the events will only happen once ,the temple well be destroyed more than once. Scripture reference? How many times was the temple destroyed? I need to look this one up to tell you exactly where it is ,but I not to long ago read about it. I really focus more on salvation ,and when it comes to the temple we are the temple. So when it comes to some topics I know about them and how to go about finding them ,I don't have the time to do that right now ,I have a paper due. I was hoping you would find it ,but I'll try to find it when I can. |
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Rapture is not the Second Coming
The Rapture is not the Second Coming. As 1 Thes. 4:15-17 and John 14:1-3 explain, 1 Thes. 4:15-17 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. Were do the alive and remain meet Jesus? Answer in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Those alive are going to heaven with Jesus, Verse 17 ”. And thus we shall always be with the Lord“. John 14:1-4 1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know." This “where I am, there you may be also“. (In verse 3) is in heaven. We know this; because Jesus tell us were He is in verse 2. Now just so we are not confused as to the place Jesus is talking about He makes clear saying one more time where He is by answering Thomas Question. John 14:5-6 5 Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?" 6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Now where does the Father dwell? Heaven. We also know that the alive and remain will meet Jesus in clouds. To go where? Heaven. The Rapture is an event where Jesus comes part way to Earth to meet His Church in the air and take us to be with Him where He is now. The time it happens is a secret because its time is unknown until it actually happens. The Second Coming is when Jesus comes all the way to Earth with His Church to establish His Kingdom here. we will know the time of His 2nd advent. Jesus return to earth will happen as stated (by Jesus Himself) in Matt. 24:29-30 says it will happen shortly after the Great Tribulation has ended. At the Rapture believers are going up. At the Second Advent believers are coming down from heaven with Jesus. Matthew 24:29-31 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other Where are Jesus’s elect gathered from? In verse 31 it tells not from earth; but from one end of heaven to the other. The saved are already in heaven. Take note not on earth going up to meet the Lord in the clouds. God’s wrath and the the Great Tribulation. They’re not the same. The two terms are not synonymous. The Great Tribulation is 3 1/2 years long and begins in Rev. CH. 11:13. This is supported by 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9 1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren (Speaking to Believers) are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. God’s wrath is much longer, beginning in Rev. 6, as verse 17 explains. Revelation 6:16-17 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" Now concerning the last 3 ½ years of the 7 year period is the Great Tribulation. It is marked my Daniel. Daniel 9:27 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week. He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." Post-trib. and pre-wrath rapture defenders will argue this. But what is written in the Scriptures is clear. The time of God’s wrath begins with the Seal Judgments in Ch. 6. The Bowl Judgments that come later. Being rescued from the time, the place and any relation to God’s Wrath means the Church has to removed before God's wrath takes place in Revelations Ch. 6 and the Church is the group of believers in view in heaven in Revelations Ch. 5. Revelation 5:11 11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, We read here there are 1st Many angels, 2nd the living creatures, 3rd the elders and the number of the elders was “ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands“, |
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Scripture talks about believers being gathered to Christ on judgment day, but not about a secret rapture at an earlier time (Matthew 24, 1 Thessalonians 4). The being "caught up" that is described and taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is an event that will take place on the last day. Matthew 24:41 needs to be understood in its complete context. Earlier in this chapter Jesus said that at his second coming the world will be destroyed (Matthew 24:29). In Matthew 24:31 he said the angels will gather the elect to be with him. Then in Jesus indicated that not everyone is among the elect, so as the elect are gathered, their immediate neighbors who are not the elect will not be taken to be with Jesus (Matthew 24:40,41). In Matthew 24:51, Matthew 25:10-12, Matthew 25:30, and Matthew 25:31-46 (especially v.46) Jesus explained what will happen to the others who are not gathered with the elect.
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John 14:1-4 1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know." This “where I am, there you may be also“. (In verse 3) is in heaven. We know this; because Jesus tell us were He is in verse 2. Now just so we are not confused as to the place Jesus is talking about He makes clear saying one more time where He is by answering Thomas Question. Your conclusion seems to contradict the fact that Jesus is coming back for his elect and intends to stay here 1000 years. Quoted:
Matthew 24:29-31 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other Where are Jesus’s elect gathered from? In verse 31 it tells not from earth; but from one end of heaven to the other. The saved are already in heaven. Take note not on earth going up to meet the Lord in the clouds. The word “from” in this passage is “apo.” means we’re to be rescued from the time, and place. So you are taking the word "heaven" which apparently has ends literally, and four winds literally also. I'm not sure that is the way to go here. You would think that when he returned, he would have had them together already. Him gathering them only makes sense if they are not where he is at the time of the event. Furthermore, the elect are being rescued from heaven? Quoted:
God’s wrath and the the Great Tribulation. They’re not the same. The two terms are not synonymous. The Great Tribulation is 3 1/2 years long and begins in Rev. CH. 11:13. Why, in a symbollic prophecy would you take the word days literally. When previous usage indicates days = years (Daniel 9, Ezekiel 4). Secondly, since the prophecy was starting to be fulfilled immediately (Rev 1:1) thee 7 years would have already passed. Quoted:
Daniel 9:27 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week. He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." Post-trib. and pre-wrath rapture defenders will argue this. But what is written in the Scriptures is clear. The time of God’s wrath begins with the Seal Judgments in Ch. 6. The Bowl Judgments that come later. Being rescued from the time, the place and any relation to God’s Wrath means the Church has to removed before God's wrath takes place in Revelations Ch. 6 and the Church is the group of believers in view in heaven in Revelations Ch. 5. Isn't Dan 9:27 what Christ did? After the 490 years of Daniel were complete, he preached for 3 years, confirmed the covenant with Abraham, and brought and end to the sacrifices. Furthermore the abomination that make desolate harmonizes completely, shortly after Christ completed his work, the romans surrounded the place (bringing the desolation nigh Luke 21:20). That generation would not pass until all things were fulfilled (Matt 24:34) indicating that the events are not future to this generation. |
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Scripture talks about believers being gathered to Christ on judgment day, but not about a secret rapture at an earlier time (Matthew 24, 1 Thessalonians 4). The being "caught up" that is described and taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is an event that will take place on the last day. Matthew 24:41 needs to be understood in its complete context. Earlier in this chapter Jesus said that at his second coming the world will be destroyed (Matthew 24:29). In Matthew 24:31 he said the angels will gather the elect to be with him. Then in Jesus indicated that not everyone is among the elect, so as the elect are gathered, their immediate neighbors who are not the elect will not be taken to be with Jesus (Matthew 24:40,41). In Matthew 24:51, Matthew 25:10-12, Matthew 25:30, and Matthew 25:31-46 (especially v.46) Jesus explained what will happen to the others who are not gathered with the elect. So if i understand you correctly you are saying that Gods saved will be here during the last week of Daniel? And those of us in Christ will experience the wrath and judgment of God during this 7 year period. |
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You are not understanding me correctly as I understand the millenium as an age. I believe the Bible literally but not literalistically. (There is a Difference) ALL Biblical prophecy has been accomplished save one, Christ's second coming. The "Rapture" described in Thessalonians where we are gathered in the clouds will indeed happen... on Judgement Day.
Revelation can be difficult to understand because it does use so much symbolism, but it actually provides a very simple description of the End Times. The early Christians figured it out; after reading Revelation and the REST of Scripture, this is how they summarized the End Times: "(Jesus now) sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty. From thence He will come to judge the living and the dead...We believe in...the ressurrection of the body, and the life everlasting." (Apostles' Creed) For years, (longer than 1000 years) this simple summary of the End Times, rooted in the Book of Revelation has guided Christian faith and understanding. This notion of The Millenium and The Rapture is quite recent. (and I believe false.) By Christ's death and ressurrection, he has already bound or cast out Satan. (Rev. 20:1-2, John 12:31-33, Eph.3:10, Col. 2:15.) Christ is reigning through His Church now during this symbolic 1000 years. (Rev. 20:2-6; 1:5-6; 5:9-10, Matthew 28:18-20, Col. 1:13-14.) Near to the end of the world, Satan wil be "released... to deceive the nations." (Rev. 20:3, 7-8; Matthew 24:4-12; 1 Tim. 4:1; 2 Tim. 3:1-5.) Jesus will return visibly, defeat Satan,raise the dead, and judge all people on Judgement Day. (Rev. 20: 10-21; 11:15-18; Matthew 25:31-46.) And the wicked will be condemned to eternal suffering and the righteous will go into everlasting life- the new heaven and the new earth! (Rev. 21:6-8; Matthew 13:40-43; 1 Cor.6:9-11.) See? Revelation's timeline CLEARLY shows that no "Rapture" or "Millenium" must take place before The Lord returns. He could reappear for Judgement Day at any time! "Blessed is he who heeds the prophecy of this book" (Rev. 22:7) Be Ready indeed! For judgement! (And JOY!) |
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John 14:1-4 1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know." This “where I am, there you may be also“. (In verse 3) is in heaven. We know this; because Jesus tell us were He is in verse 2. Now just so we are not confused as to the place Jesus is talking about He makes clear saying one more time where He is by answering Thomas Question. Your conclusion seems to contradict the fact that Jesus is coming back for his elect and intends to stay here 1000 years. No contradiction here. We do come back and rule with Jesus as it is written. Revelation 20:6 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Quoted:
Matthew 24:29-31 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other Where are Jesus’s elect gathered from? In verse 31 it tells not from earth; but from one end of heaven to the other. The saved are already in heaven. Take note not on earth going up to meet the Lord in the clouds. The word “from” in this passage is “apo.” means we’re to be rescued from the time, and place. So you are taking the word "heaven" which apparently has ends literally, and four winds literally also. I'm not sure that is the way to go here. You would think that when he returned, he would have had them together already. Him gathering them only makes sense if they are not where he is at the time of the event. Furthermore, the elect are being rescued from heaven? First the elect are not being rescued. they are being gathered. Quoted:
God’s wrath and the the Great Tribulation. They’re not the same. The two terms are not synonymous. The Great Tribulation is 3 1/2 years long and begins in Rev. CH. 11:13. Why, in a symbollic prophecy would you take the word days literally. When previous usage indicates days = years (Daniel 9, Ezekiel 4). Secondly, since the prophecy was starting to be fulfilled immediately (Rev 1:1) thee 7 years would have already passed. What marks the beginning of this seven year period is what God gave Daniel write. Daniel 9:27 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." Now this he spoken of here we are told by Jesus is? Matthew 24:15-22 15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened. The elect spoken of in verse 22 are the saved that get saved during the tribulation period. Written Revelations ch.7 The elect or saved are in chater 5 is a different group of saved. Not the saved; that get saved during the tribulation period written of in verse 22. Those in heaven are there before the tribulation saints get to heaven. Revelation 7:13-14 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" 14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Remember the book of revelations must be read and understood as instructed by Jesus not man. Revelation 1:19 19 Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this. Note the book is to be read chronological fashion. Quoted:
Daniel 9:27 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week. He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." Post-trib. and pre-wrath rapture defenders will argue this. But what is written in the Scriptures is clear. The time of God’s wrath begins with the Seal Judgments in Ch. 6. The Bowl Judgments that come later. Being rescued from the time, the place and any relation to God’s Wrath means the Church has to removed before God's wrath takes place in Revelations Ch. 6 and the Church is the group of believers in view in heaven in Revelations Ch. 5. Isn't Dan 9:27 what Christ did? After the 490 years of Daniel were complete, he preached for 3 years, confirmed the covenant with Abraham, and brought and end to the sacrifices. Furthermore the abomination that make desolate harmonizes completely, shortly after Christ completed his work, the romans surrounded the place (bringing the desolation nigh Luke 21:20). That generation would not pass until all things were fulfilled (Matt 24:34) indicating that the events are not future to this generation. The he written of in Daniel 9:27 is the anti-christ spoken of by Jesus Matthew 24:15-16 15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Why would we flee if the he is the Lord? Daniel 9:27 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." |
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You are not understanding me correctly as I understand the millenium as an age. I believe the Bible literally but not literalistically. (There is a Difference) ALL Biblical prophecy has been accomplished save one, Christ's second coming. The "Rapture" described in Thessalonians where we are gathered in the clouds will indeed happen... on Judgement Day. Revelation can be difficult to understand because it does use so much symbolism, but it actually provides a very simple description of the End Times. The early Christians figured it out; after reading Revelation and the REST of Scripture, this is how they summarized the End Times: "(Jesus now) sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty. From thence He will come to judge the living and the dead...We believe in...the ressurrection of the body, and the life everlasting." (Apostles' Creed) For years, (longer than 1000 years) this simple summary of the End Times, rooted in the Book of Revelation has guided Christian faith and understanding. This notion of The Millenium and The Rapture is quite recent. (and I believe false.) By Christ's death and ressurrection, he has already bound or cast out Satan. (Rev. 20:1-2, John 12:31-33, Eph.3:10, Col. 2:15.) Christ is reigning through His Church now during this symbolic 1000 years. (Rev. 20:2-6; 1:5-6; 5:9-10, Matthew 28:18-20, Col. 1:13-14.) Near to the end of the world, Satan wil be "released... to deceive the nations." (Rev. 20:3, 7-8; Matthew 24:4-12; 1 Tim. 4:1; 2 Tim. 3:1-5.) Jesus will return visibly, defeat Satan,raise the dead, and judge all people on Judgement Day. (Rev. 20: 10-21; 11:15-18; Matthew 25:31-46.) And the wicked will be condemned to eternal suffering and the righteous will go into everlasting life- the new heaven and the new earth! (Rev. 21:6-8; Matthew 13:40-43; 1 Cor.6:9-11.) See? Revelation's timeline CLEARLY shows that no "Rapture" or "Millenium" must take place before The Lord returns. He could reappear for Judgement Day at any time! "Blessed is he who heeds the prophecy of this book" (Rev. 22:7) Be Ready indeed! For judgement! (And JOY!) Its o.k if we disagree. I have stated my case on what is written in scripture and interpreted very literal. |
As long as we're ready we'll be fine. And fortunately in heaven there's no "I told you so!" We'll know all the answers.
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This “where I am, there you may be also“. (In verse 3) is in heaven. We know this; because Jesus tell us were He is in verse 2. Now just so we are not confused as to the place Jesus is talking about He makes clear saying one more time where He is by answering Thomas Question. Your conclusion seems to contradict the fact that Jesus is coming back for his elect and intends to stay here 1000 years. No contradiction here. We do come back and rule with Jesus as it is written. Revelation 20:6 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Your premise was that we will meet him in the Air at his return and we will always be with him (1 Thes. 4:15-17). From the John 14:1-4 passage, it states that he is coming back for us, not us going to him. At his return he intends to stay 1000 years, so we will be meeting him and staying with him right here on planet earth. It doesn't say anything about meeting with him before his return. Concluding that we will be with him in heaven from the passages cited doesn't make any sense. Quoted:
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Matthew 24:29-31 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other Where are Jesus’s elect gathered from? In verse 31 it tells not from earth; but from one end of heaven to the other. The saved are already in heaven. Take note not on earth going up to meet the Lord in the clouds. The word “from” in this passage is “apo.” means we’re to be rescued from the time, and place. So you are taking the word "heaven" which apparently has ends literally, and four winds literally also. I'm not sure that is the way to go here. You would think that when he returned, he would have had them together already. Him gathering them only makes sense if they are not where he is at the time of the event. Furthermore, the elect are being rescued from heaven? First the elect are not being rescued. they are being gathered. So you are saying that the same word, used the same way means one thing in one part of the sentence, but means something quite different in another part of a sentence. Seriously? You didn't even attempt to address the rest of the argument. Quoted:
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God’s wrath and the the Great Tribulation. They’re not the same. The two terms are not synonymous. The Great Tribulation is 3 1/2 years long and begins in Rev. CH. 11:13. Why, in a symbollic prophecy would you take the word days literally. When previous usage indicates days = years (Daniel 9, Ezekiel 4). Secondly, since the prophecy was starting to be fulfilled immediately (Rev 1:1) thee 7 years would have already passed. What marks the beginning of this seven year period is what God gave Daniel write. Daniel 9:27 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." Now this he spoken of here we are told by Jesus is? Matthew 24:15-22 15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened. The elect spoken of in verse 22 are the saved that get saved during the tribulation period. Written Revelations ch.7 The elect or saved are in chater 5 is a different group of saved. Not the saved; that get saved during the tribulation period written of in verse 22. Those in heaven are there before the tribulation saints get to heaven. You would have to deny several specific time markers in order for your interpretation to be correct. First, Jesus explicitely states that the generation of the people in his hearing shall not pass before the temple would be destroyed. Second that the persecution of the apostles would precede the destruction of the temple, third that the desolation would begin shortly after the armies surround Jerusalem. And if Dan 9:27 marks the beginning of the tribulation, you have to get around the fact that the sacrifices ended 1940 or so years ago. If the "tribulation" is 7 years, then at best it is long since happened. Your theory has several inconsistencies that don't stand up to slightest bit of scrutiny. Quoted:
Revelation 7:13-14 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" 14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Remember the book of revelations must be read and understood as instructed by Jesus not man. Revelation 1:19 19 Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this. Note the book is to be read chronological fashion. Where did you get that idea? Daniel's prophecies are chronological within visions, but not from vision to vision. And note that John saw several visions. Verse 1 of each chapter often says "then I saw" indicating another vision. For instance Chapter 14 talks about the destruction of Babylon, and chapers 16, 17, and 18 are expansions on that topic rather than being sequential to that topic. Reading it as a purely sequential matter is poor study. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Daniel 9:27 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week. He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." Post-trib. and pre-wrath rapture defenders will argue this. But what is written in the Scriptures is clear. The time of God’s wrath begins with the Seal Judgments in Ch. 6. The Bowl Judgments that come later. Being rescued from the time, the place and any relation to God’s Wrath means the Church has to removed before God's wrath takes place in Revelations Ch. 6 and the Church is the group of believers in view in heaven in Revelations Ch. 5. Isn't Dan 9:27 what Christ did? After the 490 years of Daniel were complete, he preached for 3 years, confirmed the covenant with Abraham, and brought and end to the sacrifices. Furthermore the abomination that make desolate harmonizes completely, shortly after Christ completed his work, the romans surrounded the place (bringing the desolation nigh Luke 21:20). That generation would not pass until all things were fulfilled (Matt 24:34) indicating that the events are not future to this generation. The he written of in Daniel 9:27 is the anti-christ spoken of by Jesus Matthew 24:15-16 15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Why would we flee if the he is the Lord? Daniel 9:27 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." You didn't even address my comment. Did or did not Jesus fulfill Dan 9:27? He did bring and end to sacrifice and offering. And whether or not you believe that Jesus did it, you cannot miss the fact that sacrifice and offering have been halted for the last 1940 years. Furthermore, anti-christ isn't mentioned in either of the two passages cited. |