Posted: 10/10/2010 6:42:05 PM EDT
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I've posted this on a few forums and am cross posting here.
My company has been on a project for 8 months installing Motorola PTP's. We are using Belden Outdoor Foil Shielded CAT5e and RJ45's with the metal wrapping. The "Field Engineer" is now coming back at us with "Your connectors are not made to the industry standard". This guy had not seen and RJ45 terminated until the first day of this project... He won't provide us documentation stating why or how he knows so we are doing our own searching for a good pictorial guide from a reputable company. Motorola won't provide anything as well as Tessco. Haven't found a decent guide online either. Anyone provide us with a solid guide that quotes some standards? |
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http://www.diablocable.com/ethernet-cables-c202/cat5e-ethernet-patch-cables/cat5e-stp-molded-boot-c305/cat5e-stp-rj45-patch-cable-with-molded-boot-350mhz-gray-5ft.html though I have known of STP for years, I've never seen it with rj-45 aka 8p8c connectors till i did some searching. seems that in stp with rj-45 connectors, the outside of the connectors is metal and functions as the ground point for the wire's shielding. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GG45  |
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He's just being a dick because several of his outdoor enclosures are leaking water and shorting our connectors conveniently located in the bottom of the box where the water pools.
To shift the spotlight off himself hes starting to nit pick our work and is saying our cables are not terminated to Industry standards. None of them have more than 1/2" of the pair untwisted, the shield is intact, they are all tested with brand new fluke analyzers, etc. I am simply looking for a link to a reputable source for documentation of stripping/cutting/crimping/etc. of an RJ45 with shielded cat5 and rj45 connectors, to show his dumb ass "Hey look this is the Industry Standard". We are a Motorola shop and have got that avenue but they have no official documentation either. Its such a mindless thing but we just want to cover our asses and shut him up. |
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Generally speaking you don't want a hermetically sealed antenna/enclosure device with an active radio. In many markets these have proven to be high failure devices.
How do these devices perform in other places? If the cables pass the test, print out the results and show that the cable passed. Your test equipment should also have a valid calibration certificate. -Luke |
| Everything tests good, the radios work fine. I am simply looking for a termination guide for rj45s with shielded wire. I just need to show him a picture saying here ya go this is the industry standard according to belden/motorola/whoever. Nothing more just a document by a reputable company. I know we are doing it to the industry standard, I just need a something to wave in his face. |
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Leviton has a 'Wiring Strategies' guide you can see here - I think Chapter 2 has the Cat5E termination guidelines. Not a step-by-step though, more just the standards.
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCCtpSctDspRte.jsp?section=13755&minisite=10028 |
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I realize this won't be a very helpful answer, as in not a free solution, but what you really need are the BICSI standards.
In fact, on a job of this nature I would normally have engaged (or already employed full-time) a BICSI RCDD. Most of the time that cert is pretty overkill, but as soon as you get outdoors or into a hardened environment, they are the guys. RCDD is Registered Communications Distribution Designer, and it is essentially a CCNP or MCSE for cabling guys for telecom work. The RCDDs learn all the BICSI stuff, which is the 'Bible' of how cabling gets done for low voltage. Essentially the BICSI book IS the industry standard, by default. If you can find an RCDD who'll provide you the documentation, then you should be good. BTW, the BICSI docs are NOT free, they sell them for a pretty penny. Good Luck! FluxPrism |
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Escalate above this field tech. Moto has engineers who are licensed and degreed and they also have field hacks like any other telecom company that call themselves engineers.
If your calibrated and certified test equipment passes at CAT-5, then the cable is good to go. That's the LEGAL acceptance of structured cabling on all of the jobs I've worked. Having an RCDD or EE certify your connections via email/images is really not even going to happen and if they do it will cost a few bucks. To have them on site would be another few. Where is this installation located? The radio device itself should reference the standard to which the cables connecting it must perform. If that document doesn't exist, the field hack has no case. Escalate. -Luke |
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BICSI RCDD here. Presently work as a consultant for an architectural A/D firm. This post is a placeholder. Will reply soon (day or so) with a semi-thought out answer. We are a long-winded sort who have to deliberate and nit-pick.
Biggest issue, which you may not like, is it is not proper practice to terminate an 8P8C plug onto horizontal cable - not a patch cord. (Presuming this terminates back to a patch panel.) There *is* debate about that, what with the proliferation of PoE devices like cameras. Still not a recognized best-practice. Nor was this recognized in the recently published TIA/EIA-568-C. Furthermore, I doubt Belden will recognize this as an acceptable practice. Acognisant, can you provide URLs for technical sheets on the enclosure? |
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Quoted: BICSI RCDD here. Presently work as a consultant for an architectural A/D firm. This post is a placeholder. Will reply soon (day or so) with a semi-thought out answer. We are a long-winded sort who have to deliberate and nit-pick. Biggest issue, which you may not like, is it is not proper practice to terminate an 8P8C plug onto horizontal cable - not a patch cord. (Presuming this terminates back to a patch panel.) There *is* debate about that, what with the proliferation of PoE devices like cameras. Still not a recognized best-practice. Nor was this recognized in the recently published TIA/EIA-568-C. Furthermore, I doubt Belden will recognize this as an acceptable practice. Acognisant, can you provide URLs for technical sheets on the enclosure? Where the fuck is the ieee 802.x on the wiring, connecting,shielding and grounding of stp for Ethernet?? the entire Internet rattles off the same shit about utp, but when one looks for stp, all 'they' have to say is "foil, derp!" *crickets* |
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BICSI RCDD here. Presently work as a consultant for an architectural A/D firm. This post is a placeholder. Will reply soon (day or so) with a semi-thought out answer. We are a long-winded sort who have to deliberate and nit-pick. Biggest issue, which you may not like, is it is not proper practice to terminate an 8P8C plug onto horizontal cable - not a patch cord. (Presuming this terminates back to a patch panel.) There *is* debate about that, what with the proliferation of PoE devices like cameras. Still not a recognized best-practice. Nor was this recognized in the recently published TIA/EIA-568-C. Furthermore, I doubt Belden will recognize this as an acceptable practice. Acognisant, can you provide URLs for technical sheets on the enclosure? Where the fuck is the ieee 802.x on the wiring, connecting,shielding and grounding of stp for Ethernet?? the entire Internet rattles off the same shit about utp, but when one looks for stp, all 'they' have to say is "foil, derp!" *crickets* They're quiet on it because its not their scope. UTP, STP or otherwise. For installation practices, refer to BICSI Information Transport Systems Installation Methods Manual (ITSIMM). We like acronyms. A lot... |
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Well....I don't know how I can type this any other way to get my request across.
Pictures of RJ45 Termination, with procedure, by reputable company. Thats it...The enclosure and everything else has nothing to do with my request besides it being the point where my terminated connectors are connected to. |
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My original post stands. I was just going through the motions of giving you other things to complain about if you wanted a pissing match. You are attempting to put an 8P8C on HC which is not kosher. Exactly this. ^^^^^^^ I misunderstood your original post, ASSUMING (yeah, I know...) that when you said RJ45 and 8P8C you meant the JACKS, not PLUGs. You won't find any support from any standards for putting RJ45/8P8C PLUGs on horizontal cabling, because that is not the industry standard. I'm sure there are a few edge cases where it is done, but generally speaking that would not pass in 99% of installations. I've ordered hundreds of 6 inch and 12 inch patch cables before to accommodate just these sorts of devices in sealed enclosures in chemical plants and refineries. You should terminate your horizontal cabling into a JACK, then run a short patch cord into the equipment, rather than terminating a PLUG directly on the end of your horizontal cabling. And, terminating the STP shield onto a shielded JACK is fairly straightforward and reasonably well documented, sometimes via crimp and sometimes requiring soldering. Good Luck! FluxPrism |
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My original post stands. I was just going through the motions of giving you other things to complain about if you wanted a pissing match. You are attempting to put an 8P8C on HC which is not kosher. Exactly this. ^^^^^^^ I misunderstood your original post, ASSUMING (yeah, I know...) that when you said RJ45 and 8P8C you meant the JACKS, not PLUGs. You won't find any support from any standards for putting RJ45/8P8C PLUGs on horizontal cabling, because that is not the industry standard. I'm sure there are a few edge cases where it is done, but generally speaking that would not pass in 99% of installations. I've ordered hundreds of 6 inch and 12 inch patch cables before to accommodate just these sorts of devices in sealed enclosures in chemical plants and refineries. You should terminate your horizontal cabling into a JACK, then run a short patch cord into the equipment, rather than terminating a PLUG directly on the end of your horizontal cabling. And, terminating the STP shield onto a shielded JACK is fairly straightforward and reasonably well documented, sometimes via crimp and sometimes requiring soldering. Good Luck! FluxPrism I would never have believed that asking for a simple procedure with photographs from a reputable company to help in my companies defense would cause you to believe this was a pissing match. Not to mention assuming and questioning so much about this project is ridiculous, especially with the vague information given.. Believe me, there are engineers on this project all of which have government contracts to work on classified military facilities, including my company, that have this engineered down to the crush washer. But asking on ARFCOM simply for help finding a diagram and explanation of how to install and RJ45 onto Shielded cable would bring every pissant "this is how you should have done this" back seat engineer to anger I would have never brought it up. BTW 100 12" patch cables is a slow Tuesday. Let me restate my question, just to quadruple clarify what I was asking, even though it has been answered already by several other forums. Can anyone provide me Documentation of installation of a RJ45 onto foil shielded CAT5e. I simply need to show the contractor above me that our company is terminating our connectors to the industry standard. I technically don't need to show him anything because our Fluke testers have tested everything, but just to stack the deck I am looking to help our PM by showing photos/documentation that our manually terminated connectors meet the industry standard. |
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My original post stands. I was just going through the motions of giving you other things to complain about if you wanted a pissing match. You are attempting to put an 8P8C on HC which is not kosher. Exactly this. ^^^^^^^ -snip- FluxPrism I would never have believed that asking for a simple procedure with photographs from a reputable company to help in my companies defense would cause you to believe this was a pissing match. Not to mention assuming and questioning so much about this project is ridiculous, especially with the vague information given.. Believe me, there are engineers on this project all of which have government contracts to work on classified military facilities, including my company, that have this engineered down to the crush washer. But asking on ARFCOM simply for help finding a diagram and explanation of how to install and RJ45 onto Shielded cable would bring every pissant "this is how you should have done this" back seat engineer to anger I would have never brought it up. BTW 100 12" patch cables is a slow Tuesday. Let me restate my question, just to quadruple clarify what I was asking, even though it has been answered already by several other forums. Can anyone provide me Documentation of installation of a RJ45 onto foil shielded CAT5e. I simply need to show the contractor above me that our company is terminating our connectors to the industry standard. I technically don't need to show him anything because our Fluke testers have tested everything, but just to stack the deck I am looking to help our PM by showing photos/documentation that our manually terminated connectors meet the industry standard. Dude, chill. It seems you might be in one of those Edge Cases where this is acceptable workmanship, but let me reiterate: EDGE CASE. 99.99% of the time what you are describing doing would be considered UNSAT and not appropriate to industry standards. We're just trying to keep people out of trouble. It's a little like someone coming onto a medical forum and asking how best to insert an IV on themselves. For most people and most situations, the answer would be (and should be...) DON'T! For the rare exceptions, there are some proper directions on how to do it. That all said, here's a link to a nice PDF from l-com that describes in detail (complete with pictures) how to properly terminate a shielded RJ-45 plug onto Cat5(e,6,etc.) cable using a crimp-only (no soldering) style connector. If this doesn't shut up the contractor I fear nothing will. http://www.l-com.com/multimedia/manuals/M_TDS8PC5.PDF Good Luck! FluxPrism |
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My original post stands. I was just going through the motions of giving you other things to complain about if you wanted a pissing match. You are attempting to put an 8P8C on HC which is not kosher. Exactly this. ^^^^^^^ I misunderstood your original post, ASSUMING (yeah, I know...) that when you said RJ45 and 8P8C you meant the JACKS, not PLUGs. You won't find any support from any standards for putting RJ45/8P8C PLUGs on horizontal cabling, because that is not the industry standard. I'm sure there are a few edge cases where it is done, but generally speaking that would not pass in 99% of installations. I've ordered hundreds of 6 inch and 12 inch patch cables before to accommodate just these sorts of devices in sealed enclosures in chemical plants and refineries. You should terminate your horizontal cabling into a JACK, then run a short patch cord into the equipment, rather than terminating a PLUG directly on the end of your horizontal cabling. And, terminating the STP shield onto a shielded JACK is fairly straightforward and reasonably well documented, sometimes via crimp and sometimes requiring soldering. Good Luck! FluxPrism I would never have believed that asking for a simple procedure with photographs from a reputable company to help in my companies defense would cause you to believe this was a pissing match. Not to mention assuming and questioning so much about this project is ridiculous, especially with the vague information given.. Believe me, there are engineers on this project all of which have government contracts to work on classified military facilities, including my company, that have this engineered down to the crush washer. But asking on ARFCOM simply for help finding a diagram and explanation of how to install and RJ45 onto Shielded cable would bring every pissant "this is how you should have done this" back seat engineer to anger I would have never brought it up. BTW 100 12" patch cables is a slow Tuesday. Let me restate my question, just to quadruple clarify what I was asking, even though it has been answered already by several other forums. Can anyone provide me Documentation of installation of a RJ45 onto foil shielded CAT5e. I simply need to show the contractor above me that our company is terminating our connectors to the industry standard. I technically don't need to show him anything because our Fluke testers have tested everything, but just to stack the deck I am looking to help our PM by showing photos/documentation that our manually terminated connectors meet the industry standard. You fail at reading comprehension. Have fun with your piss-ass attitude. |
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My original post stands. I was just going through the motions of giving you other things to complain about if you wanted a pissing match. You are attempting to put an 8P8C on HC which is not kosher. Then I guess I will tell Motorola, Northrop Grumman, Boeing, and our engineers that bchapman says we are all doing it wrong. I'm not quite sure how your assuming this was a pissing match when your side stepping a simple question from a simple installer. You don't know jack about the project other than my limited description and what I asked for ,a RJ45 Termination For Dummies pictorial guide to show a dumbass field engineer. I don't care about your input about the enclosure, or the fact that you seem to believe that it is improper to run HC in this application when you don't even know what the application is. I didn't know asking for a photo of an rj45 crimped with foil would lead to this. |
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Being that many engineers have Aspergers and many field hacks are just field hacks, walking into a room with a few of either, saying they are wrong is not a problem for an engineer or scientist.
I'd like to see how shielded C5e is needed in ANY application where you'd not run a PDS and do proper horizontal cable plant. In a residential application? Military? BICSI, STIGS.. whatever. There's more noise than signal in this thread. This reminds me of idiots saying a "Monster" cable is better at hauling a digital signal from my blu-ray player to my receiver and thence an analog signal to my speakers. -Luke |
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My original post stands. I was just going through the motions of giving you other things to complain about if you wanted a pissing match. You are attempting to put an 8P8C on HC which is not kosher. Then I guess I will tell Motorola, Northrop Grumman, Boeing, and our engineers that bchapman says we are all doing it wrong. I'm not quite sure how your assuming this was a pissing match when your side stepping a simple question from a simple installer. You don't know jack about the project other than my limited description and what I asked for ,a RJ45 Termination For Dummies pictorial guide to show a dumbass field engineer. I don't care about your input about the enclosure, or the fact that you seem to believe that it is improper to run HC in this application when you don't even know what the application is. I didn't know asking for a photo of an rj45 crimped with foil would lead to this. Still fail at reading comprehension, in addition to critical thinking skills, I see. You request standards/common practices validation when the core of your statements are intrinsically fucked. You do not receive the validation you expect, but rather are told of some possible issues, which very well *may* be the issue at hand, and you shit on them. You created the hostility. You are the antagonist. Contrary thoughts are reasonably presented with the backing of standards and practices and you go schizo. I bet your coworkers *really* love working with you... |
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Quoted: Why don't you explain to all of us 4 year olds why he is wrong. Post the copied of the sections of the expensive acronym books of yours detailing why he is wrong and what the correct way is.Quoted: Quoted: My original post stands. I was just going through the motions of giving you other things to complain about if you wanted a pissing match. You are attempting to put an 8P8C on HC which is not kosher. Then I guess I will tell Motorola, Northrop Grumman, Boeing, and our engineers that bchapman says we are all doing it wrong. I'm not quite sure how your assuming this was a pissing match when your side stepping a simple question from a simple installer. You don't know jack about the project other than my limited description and what I asked for ,a RJ45 Termination For Dummies pictorial guide to show a dumbass field engineer. I don't care about your input about the enclosure, or the fact that you seem to believe that it is improper to run HC in this application when you don't even know what the application is. I didn't know asking for a photo of an rj45 crimped with foil would lead to this. Still fail at reading comprehension, in addition to critical thinking skills, I see. You request standards/common practices validation when the core of your statements are intrinsically fucked. You do not receive the validation you expect, but rather are told of some possible issues, which very well *may* be the issue at hand, and you shit on them. You created the hostility. You are the antagonist. Contrary thoughts are reasonably presented with the backing of standards and practices and you go schizo. I bet your coworkers *really* love working with you...  |
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I found a reference for STP when used for distrubuted wireless in the BiCSi Telecom Distribution Methods Manual. I didn't read the section as I've not seen a radio device that is so lousy in performance that it would have an effect on cat5/6 performance.
But, if the OP wants to purchase the book and read for himself, he can. |
Yes I'm the bad guy because I ask a simple question multiple times and get fed up with jokers with more certs than sense telling me this entire project is fubar. I didn't decide what cable to use or what enclosures to use. I just asked for some help finding a connector installation guide. 
Ridiculous. Quoted:
I bet your coworkers *really* love working with you... They do, and they got a laugh out of this thread and you in particular. We all bet your coworkers love your long winded explanations to questions they didn't ask. |