Posted: 11/22/2015 11:21:15 PM EDT
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As an intro, I finally had a question I couldn't find an answer to in 5-6 years of lurking and decided it was past time to join you guys.
Getting ready for a couple of precision matches with my partner and his rifle is doing some goofy things cold bore and I wanted to hear some ideas. Savage 11VT .308 in a XLR Evolution chassis, Vortex PST 6-24 in a Larue SPR-S mount. Everything has been torqued to spec and ensured nothing is moving around as far as rings/mount/action tight in chassis etc. Issue is when he takes it out of case and begins at 100 yards to confirm zero he is roughly 1 full Mil high. After about 5 rounds it returns to zero and stays there the rest of the day, no matter if the gun goes back to ambient temperature again or not. Its like it has to have 5 rds before it wakes up or something. The scope tracks perfectly all the way past 1,000yds and everywhere in between and then back to zero every time. On another day he shot the first round, 1 mil high, adjusted to center, set turrets to zero and in 4-5 rounds it was 1mil high again. So the next step is swapping scope and mount to another rifle to try and eliminate a variable but I was just curious if anyone has run across this before? |
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Quoted:
Issue is when he takes it out of case and begins at 100 yards to confirm zero he is roughly 1 full Mil high. After about 5 rounds it returns to zero and stays there the rest of the day, no matter if the gun goes back to ambient temperature again or not. Its like it has to have 5 rds before it wakes up or something. The scope tracks perfectly all the way past 1,000yds and everywhere in between and then back to zero every time. On another day he shot the first round, 1 mil high, adjusted to center, set turrets to zero and in 4-5 rounds it was 1mil high again. So the next step is swapping scope and mount to another rifle to try and eliminate a variable but I was just curious if anyone has run across this before? So, big question: Is he cleaning the bore before bringing it to the range? This sounds more like a "clean bore" issue than a "cold bore" issue. |
| Only If he quits shooting for the day. It's as if it just has to be shot several times for it to return to zero. We shot today and once the initial four to five shots were fired and it settled into to its normal zero it was fine. He let it sit for almost an hour and I shot it with an Ir thermometer and saw it was at 40* with ambient air temp, he dialed in his come up and put a first round hit dead nuts at 750. I appreciate the help offer, we'll actually be in cookeville in a couple weeks for a match, hope we can get it lined out before hand. |
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Quoted:
A full mil is pretty extreme. Are you sure it's not an MOA? Yea guys its a full Mil. Thats what was making it so odd, a couple tenths maybe, sure no big deal, just a normal cold bore shift but this is a full mil UP each time its brought to the range. Its done this the past 3 trips in a row. Duplicated perfectly each time. It'll shoot a 1/2-3/4 inch 4-5 shot group first thing in a range trip except it'll do it a Mil high. Then after it "warms up" or whatever you'd want to call it, it settles down to normal. The only thing he changed was his ammo, he pushed his powder charge up a smidge and is running a 175 SMK in a Lapua case to about 2650ish. But he had a different scope on it before so I can only attest to the last 3-4 range trips when its done this. Just strange. I appreciate the help so far. |
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Quoted:
Yea guys its a full Mil. Thats what was making it so odd, a couple tenths maybe, sure no big deal, just a normal cold bore shift but this is a full mil UP each time its brought to the range. Its done this the past 3 trips in a row. Duplicated perfectly each time. It'll shoot a 1/2-3/4 inch 4-5 shot group first thing in a range trip except it'll do it a Mil high. Then after it "warms up" or whatever you'd want to call it, it settles down to normal. The only thing he changed was his ammo, he pushed his powder charge up a smidge and is running a 175 SMK in a Lapua case to about 2650ish. But he had a different scope on it before so I can only attest to the last 3-4 range trips when its done this. Just strange. I appreciate the help so far. Quoted:
Quoted:
A full mil is pretty extreme. Are you sure it's not an MOA? Yea guys its a full Mil. Thats what was making it so odd, a couple tenths maybe, sure no big deal, just a normal cold bore shift but this is a full mil UP each time its brought to the range. Its done this the past 3 trips in a row. Duplicated perfectly each time. It'll shoot a 1/2-3/4 inch 4-5 shot group first thing in a range trip except it'll do it a Mil high. Then after it "warms up" or whatever you'd want to call it, it settles down to normal. The only thing he changed was his ammo, he pushed his powder charge up a smidge and is running a 175 SMK in a Lapua case to about 2650ish. But he had a different scope on it before so I can only attest to the last 3-4 range trips when its done this. Just strange. I appreciate the help so far. Have you had a different shooter try the cold bore shot? If he shoots it then lets it sit tell it cools down does it do it again? Honestly it sounds like a cold shooter to me. |
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Its because he is cleaning the barrel after he shoots. After he shoots 5-6 rounds his barrel is fouled and stays a consistent fouling for the remaining shots taken that day. Snipers want consistency with every shot and write down everything to include the number of times the bore is punched with a brush, how many wet patches and how many dry patches. This will give the bore the same status for their first shot. A cold bore doesn't necessarily mean the temp of the barrel, it also takes into consideration the condition of the bore. If the rifle is cleaned the same way and cold the first round fired can be different from the zero of the rifle. This shot should be recorded. (Every shot should be recorded). You will find out that your first round out of a cold/clean barrel will be consistent with other cold bore shots. This will give you your dope for a cold bore shot, which is different from your follow-on shots. I suggest he leaves his barrel fouled, it wont hurt anything and this is what most military snipers do. We would re-zero rifle in theatre and leave it fouled for the entire deployment. |
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Quoted:
Its because he is cleaning the barrel after he shoots. After he shoots 5-6 rounds his barrel is fouled and stays a consistent fouling for the remaining shots taken that day. Snipers want consistency with every shot and write down everything to include the number of times the bore is punched with a brush, how many wet patches and how many dry patches. This will give the bore the same status for their first shot. A cold bore doesn't necessarily mean the temp of the barrel, it also takes into consideration the condition of the bore. If the rifle is cleaned the same way and cold the first round fired can be different from the zero of the rifle. This shot should be recorded. (Every shot should be recorded). You will find out that your first round out of a cold/clean barrel will be consistent with other cold bore shots. This will give you your dope for a cold bore shot, which is different from your follow-on shots. I suggest he leaves his barrel fouled, it wont hurt anything and this is what most military snipers do. We would re-zero rifle in theatre and leave it fouled for the entire deployment. Op already said he wasn't cleaning the bbl. All that cleaning is horseshit. Is there a great temp difference in where the rifle is stored compared to where it is fired? Maybe the stock is moving in the warm house, then the action moves back into place when fired. Even chassis need, or can benefit from bedding, as they are not custom machined to the action. |
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Quoted:
So, big question: Is he cleaning the bore before bringing it to the range? This sounds more like a "clean bore" issue than a "cold bore" issue. Quoted:
Quoted:
Issue is when he takes it out of case and begins at 100 yards to confirm zero he is roughly 1 full Mil high. After about 5 rounds it returns to zero and stays there the rest of the day, no matter if the gun goes back to ambient temperature again or not. Its like it has to have 5 rds before it wakes up or something. The scope tracks perfectly all the way past 1,000yds and everywhere in between and then back to zero every time. On another day he shot the first round, 1 mil high, adjusted to center, set turrets to zero and in 4-5 rounds it was 1mil high again. So the next step is swapping scope and mount to another rifle to try and eliminate a variable but I was just curious if anyone has run across this before? So, big question: Is he cleaning the bore before bringing it to the range? This sounds more like a "clean bore" issue than a "cold bore" issue. Bingo ! |
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Quoted:
Bingo ! Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Issue is when he takes it out of case and begins at 100 yards to confirm zero he is roughly 1 full Mil high. After about 5 rounds it returns to zero and stays there the rest of the day, no matter if the gun goes back to ambient temperature again or not. Its like it has to have 5 rds before it wakes up or something. The scope tracks perfectly all the way past 1,000yds and everywhere in between and then back to zero every time. On another day he shot the first round, 1 mil high, adjusted to center, set turrets to zero and in 4-5 rounds it was 1mil high again. So the next step is swapping scope and mount to another rifle to try and eliminate a variable but I was just curious if anyone has run across this before? So, big question: Is he cleaning the bore before bringing it to the range? This sounds more like a "clean bore" issue than a "cold bore" issue. Bingo ! Um no back in November of 2015 OP said he had 250 rounds since cleaning. |
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Solution:
Tell your buddy to take a power converter and a hair dryer to the range. He needs to pre-heat his barrel to whatever temp. it starts shooting good groups at. In all seriousness, it sounds like there is an issue with either the rifle or the shooter. "Cold bore" has nothing to do with it. |
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Quoted:
Its because he is cleaning the barrel after he shoots. After he shoots 5-6 rounds his barrel is fouled and stays a consistent fouling for the remaining shots taken that day. Snipers want consistency with every shot and write down everything to include the number of times the bore is punched with a brush, how many wet patches and how many dry patches. This will give the bore the same status for their first shot. A cold bore doesn't necessarily mean the temp of the barrel, it also takes into consideration the condition of the bore. If the rifle is cleaned the same way and cold the first round fired can be different from the zero of the rifle. This shot should be recorded. (Every shot should be recorded). You will find out that your first round out of a cold/clean barrel will be consistent with other cold bore shots. This will give you your dope for a cold bore shot, which is different from your follow-on shots. I suggest he leaves his barrel fouled, it wont hurt anything and this is what most military snipers do. We would re-zero rifle in theatre and leave it fouled for the entire deployment. Who told you that? I've never heard of anyone doing that. The only thing recorded are normal data book things like temp, lighting, cold bore, etc, not cleaning or anything like that. Also, we always cleaned after shooting. It was taught that way in school and we did it overseas because we had the data to compensate for clean bore/cold bore. If someone wants to not clean, more power to them, but it certainly isn't taught that way nor is it common practice in the mil based on my 22 years. |
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Quoted:
Who told you that? I've never heard of anyone doing that. The only thing recorded are normal data book things like temp, lighting, cold bore, etc, not cleaning or anything like that. Also, we always cleaned after shooting. It was taught that way in school and we did it overseas because we had the data to compensate for clean bore/cold bore. If someone wants to not clean, more power to them, but it certainly isn't taught that way nor is it common practice in the mil based on my 22 years. Quoted:
Quoted:
Its because he is cleaning the barrel after he shoots. After he shoots 5-6 rounds his barrel is fouled and stays a consistent fouling for the remaining shots taken that day. Snipers want consistency with every shot and write down everything to include the number of times the bore is punched with a brush, how many wet patches and how many dry patches. This will give the bore the same status for their first shot. A cold bore doesn't necessarily mean the temp of the barrel, it also takes into consideration the condition of the bore. If the rifle is cleaned the same way and cold the first round fired can be different from the zero of the rifle. This shot should be recorded. (Every shot should be recorded). You will find out that your first round out of a cold/clean barrel will be consistent with other cold bore shots. This will give you your dope for a cold bore shot, which is different from your follow-on shots. I suggest he leaves his barrel fouled, it wont hurt anything and this is what most military snipers do. We would re-zero rifle in theatre and leave it fouled for the entire deployment. Who told you that? I've never heard of anyone doing that. The only thing recorded are normal data book things like temp, lighting, cold bore, etc, not cleaning or anything like that. Also, we always cleaned after shooting. It was taught that way in school and we did it overseas because we had the data to compensate for clean bore/cold bore. If someone wants to not clean, more power to them, but it certainly isn't taught that way nor is it common practice in the mil based on my 22 years. Mil had my dad hug a pole at the firing range and tell the pole "I love you pole" over and over again the whole time they were there because he leaned against it. Sometimes it's just about disapline. Krieger himself doesn't recommend cleaning until accuracy goes away, and then don't clean spotless. |
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Quoted:
Mil had my dad hug a pole at the firing range and tell the pole "I love you pole" over and over again the whole time they were there because he leaned against it. Sometimes it's just about disapline. Krieger himself doesn't recommend cleaning until accuracy goes away, and then don't clean spotless. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Its because he is cleaning the barrel after he shoots. After he shoots 5-6 rounds his barrel is fouled and stays a consistent fouling for the remaining shots taken that day. Snipers want consistency with every shot and write down everything to include the number of times the bore is punched with a brush, how many wet patches and how many dry patches. This will give the bore the same status for their first shot. A cold bore doesn't necessarily mean the temp of the barrel, it also takes into consideration the condition of the bore. If the rifle is cleaned the same way and cold the first round fired can be different from the zero of the rifle. This shot should be recorded. (Every shot should be recorded). You will find out that your first round out of a cold/clean barrel will be consistent with other cold bore shots. This will give you your dope for a cold bore shot, which is different from your follow-on shots. I suggest he leaves his barrel fouled, it wont hurt anything and this is what most military snipers do. We would re-zero rifle in theatre and leave it fouled for the entire deployment. Who told you that? I've never heard of anyone doing that. The only thing recorded are normal data book things like temp, lighting, cold bore, etc, not cleaning or anything like that. Also, we always cleaned after shooting. It was taught that way in school and we did it overseas because we had the data to compensate for clean bore/cold bore. If someone wants to not clean, more power to them, but it certainly isn't taught that way nor is it common practice in the mil based on my 22 years. Mil had my dad hug a pole at the firing range and tell the pole "I love you pole" over and over again the whole time they were there because he leaned against it. Sometimes it's just about disapline. Krieger himself doesn't recommend cleaning until accuracy goes away, and then don't clean spotless. Yeah and I remember having guys hang upside down on tree trunks, but that doesn't have anything to do with recording the number of times you push a patch through a bore. lol I don't want to derail this thread but I just wanted to know where you got that from. If someone did that, it was some weird personal thing they did and not standard practice nor is it taught in sniper school or in any units I've been in. As far as cleaning or not cleaning, again that's a personal thing and if you want to do it that way, more power to you. You won't get away with it in the mil however, they'd never accept it back into the arms room. I could've gotten away with it on any of the sniper rifles I had but I didn't want to be the guy blamed for corrosion and that's the reason the mil teaches cleaning everytime til it's spotless. If you have the data, which you should, it doesn't matter if the barrel is fouled if you're concerned about consistency/accuracy. |
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Does the sniper field manual still say high humidity causes more bullet drop?
Point is just because the military says/trains it doesn't mean it is necessary or correct. It is pretty common, from what I have seen, in the precision rifle community that you only clean when accuracy goes away. When one or more of the top barrel makers make the same statements with sound reasoning, I go with that. Bolt and chamber maintenance, I do more often. Damage can be done from cleaning so why risk it if you don't have to. The federal government doesn't buy my barrels so..... Today's powders are pretty clean and noncorrosive it doesn't hurt the barrel. I'll post the Krieger video if I can find it. |
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Quoted:
Does the sniper field manual still say high humidity causes more bullet drop? Point is just because the military says/trains it doesn't mean it is necessary or correct. It is pretty common, from what I have seen, in the precision rifle community that you only clean when accuracy goes away. When one or more of the top barrel makers make the same statements with sound reasoning, I go with that. Bolt and chamber maintenance, I do more often. Damage can be done from cleaning so why risk it if you don't have to. The federal government doesn't buy my barrels so..... Today's powders are pretty clean and noncorrosive it doesn't hurt the barrel. I'll post the Krieger video if I can find it. I'm not sure what that has to do with what I mentioned...All I said is that it isn't taught in the mil in general, in sniper school nor have I ever met another sniper that records how many times they punch a barrel. I know that keeping a barrel fouled will produce consistent groups vs having to foul a clean barrel, but unless you want to chance wearing/corroding a barrel faster, you clean it and use data to know where your rounds will impact no matter if its shot from a clean and cold barrel or a warm and hot one. Personally, I like to make sure my gear is going to work, all the time, no matter what, so I take the time to clean and get all the data I need so that no matter the condition of my barrel, I know where my rounds are going. Before you go on about todays ammo not screwing barrels up because you didn't clean it, I know, but I don't take chances (call me paranoid) AND after 22 years, I'm in the habit and I prefer the way I do it and respect that others don't like to clean or take the time to get all that data. ETA I saw you mentioned todays powders being noncorrosive. Yep, you're correct but when you're depending on that rifle for more than punching holes in paper, it matters. Either way, I wish I could make myself not clean, but I just can't do it. lol |