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AR15.COM
4/10/2015 12:09:16 PM EDT
When reloading new brass or surplus mil brass I always start off with a FL resize.  I am now at the point where I want to reload my fireformed brass out of my Rem 700.

When FLing, I use a Redding Competition sizing die (not the bushing series).  Using a "Ballistics Tools" case neck tension gage, it indicates a .302 resize.

Now that I am starting to neck size only, I'm using an RCBS neck die.  According to the same gage, it is resizing to .305.

I would like your comments and or advice, thanks.

Do you lube your cases when neck sizing only?  I use the Redding wax on the first of 10 cases then repeat.


Mike
4/10/2015 12:33:36 PM EDT
[#1]
I'm not an expert, but based on the info below it sounds like your brass will have nearly perfect neck tension.

Posted 2 days ago on the Army Marksmanship Unit FB page:

LINK


U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit added 2 new photos.
April 8 at 9:01am ·
(HL) Welcome to another weekly edition of the U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit’s “Handloading Hump-Day!” Our Handloading Shop staff are happy to share tips and techniques to help our fellow shooters obtain better accuracy with less effort, more precision and lower cost!
This week, we examine DETERMINING OPTIMUM CASE NECK TENSION FOR BEST ACCURACY. Our method is simple, but relies on the use of case sizing dies which accept interchangeable neck diameter bushings graduated in 0.001” increments. [Photo 1]
Those readers using fixed-diameter dies with expander balls aren’t forgotten, however. Methods of tailoring these dies for proper neck tension will be found below, so don’t tune out just yet! In our experience across many calibers, sizing case necks 0.003” under the loaded-case neck diameter usually yields excellent accuracy. (In other words, the sized case neck expands 0.003” when the bullet is seated.)
Over the years, we have periodically experimented with increasing neck tension to possibly improve accuracy. In testing with machine rests at 300/600 yards, accuracy often deteriorated as neck tension increased; thus, 0.003” expansion is where we usually start. Occasionally, 0.002" expansion works very well, so as always, keep an open mind!
Using the .260 Remington as an example, our loaded cartridge case necks measure 0.292”. [Photo 2] Simply subtract 0.003” from that, and use a bushing sizing necks to 0.289”. There are exceptions – sometimes, brass may be a bit soft or hard. Some case necks might need, say, 0.001” more tension, but in general, this works well.
Note: this neck tension works very well for single-loaded, long range cartridges. Depending on your caliber and firearm, it MAY also work very well for magazine-fed cartridges. If this neck tension proves inadequate for your purpose, one can increase neck tension as needed while monitoring for possible accuracy changes. In any event, we do not crimp rifle cartridges, and advise against it for accuracy handloads.
Many savvy handloaders avoid the use of expander balls in high-accuracy reloading, if possible. These can stretch cases and/or disturb the concentricity of the case neck vs. case body. If using a die with an expander ball, tapering both ends of the ball and polishing it to a mirror finish can significantly reduce these effects. (Special carbide expander ball/decapping stem sets are available for this as well, at extra cost.)
The typical dies used with expander balls are intended to take any cases the user may find, and size them down well below the ideal “spec” to ensure any cases will give good neck tension. The necks are then expanded up to provide heavy to medium neck tension as the expander ball exits the neck. The brass is over-worked, leading to premature work-hardening, and seated-bullet concentricity may suffer. However, the cartridges produced are perfectly adequate for most handloaders. Those who seek finest accuracy generally prefer not to over-work their brass if possible.
There are companies which offer to convert one’s standard dies to accept neck bushings, and that gives much flexibility. Another, more “old-school” approach, is to have the neck of one’s FL die honed out to the desired diameter for sizing, based on one’s case neck thickness. The expander ball may then be reduced until it barely touches the case necks after sizing, or it may be eliminated entirely. However, once performed, this modification is permanent. It leaves fewer options than the bushing route, if one later changes case neck thickness.
As always, we hope this is helpful! Please feel free to share any useful information here that would benefit others. Until next week, be safe and good shooting!
View Quote
4/11/2015 9:29:39 PM EDT
[#2]
thanks for the link airsix.  it's almost like the AMU has been reading my reloading posts for the past 10 years...   although personally i prefer to go just a tad lighter with 1 thou, and only sizing half the neck, but i'm not shooting garands.  

however, unless i'm misreading, the OP is not saying he's putting 3 thou neck tension on.  he's saying there's 3 thou difference between his FL and NK-only sizing dies.   your post does explain what he should do though, which is to measure the difference in a sized case before and after he seats a bullet.    from the above info, i'm guessing one or both of those dies is putting more tension on than necessary
4/11/2015 10:07:10 PM EDT
[#3]
You are correct. I like the idea of using bushings to vary the sizing, but I'm not there yet.  I guess what I'm looking for is someone to confirm that this is common and I'm good to go, or I should start looking to replace these dies sooner rather than later.  Again, someone with personal experience using the gage I mentioned.

FWIW, I haven't had any issue with my load workups.  I've had 5 shot groups in the .350 moa spread range (not often enough), but I am looking to improve my consistency.

Thanks for the replies.
4/11/2015 10:12:06 PM EDT
[#4]
i've never even heard of that gauge before, but the rest of the world measures neck tension with plain old calipers (i.e. the OD of the case neck).   give us those measurements and we can help you out.
4/14/2015 3:42:26 PM EDT
[#5]
When you fire a sized case in a rifle the result is fired brass.  When you form a case to the chamber from another caliber you are fireforming it.  The result is that there are many people getting confused about what they are reading and what they are doing.  You can measure neck tension with dial calipers.  All you have to do is measure the inside of the sized case.  A .308 bullet is .308, .306 inside of the neck would be .002 neck tension.  .305 ID would be .003 neck tension.  

I always FL size all my brass for all my rifles.  I use a FL die to set the shoulder back .002 or so as I FL the cases.  If you NS only you can probably get away without lubing the cases.  When the bolt get stickey you will need to FL size.  If your bolt close and lift is inconsistent or when it gets there its time to FL again.  I don't think you will see a difference on paper or target with FL vs NS cases and I think you will have less issues with a FL die.  About all a NS die gets you in a non BR rifle is that cases don't grow as much so you don't need to trim and you usually don't need to lube the necks.
4/15/2015 10:57:30 AM EDT
[#6]
To clarify......

As I understand it, the die with the expander brings the brass back into "shape" and ensures that the OD will chamber properly.  As the shell exits the die, the last contact through the neck is the expander ball by itself forming the ID which sets neck tension.

Keeping that in mind, and at the level I am reloading today working towards my expert badge  ;)   I know the only way to really have consistent neck tension is to turn necks and use bushing dies, but I'm still using the expander ball method.

Using the gage (note how there are graduated steps cut into the tool) I have determined that I have .006" of tension using the Redding Competition die with the carbide ball expander upgrade vs .003" using the RCBS neck die.  As I understand it, the Redding die appears to have an excessive amount of tension, while the RCBS seems to be dead on.  Does that sound right?  Is that typical for "Competition" grade dies?  Should I contact Redding concerning the OD of the expander ball?  Am I being too anal? I haven't shot any brass that was only neck sized yet so I have nothing to compare as far as grouping goes.

Again, thanks for your replies.


4/20/2015 2:58:20 PM EDT
[#7]

As I understand it, the die with the expander brings the brass back into "shape" and ensures that the OD will chamber properly. As the shell exits the die, the last contact through the neck is the expander ball by itself forming the ID which sets neck tension.
- Yes this is true.  The main points that get sized on the case are the body, shoulder and the neck.  Adjusting your FL  die down more will size or move the shoulder back the appropriate amount.    

Keeping that in mind, and at the level I am reloading today working towards my expert badge ;) I know the only way to really have consistent neck tension is to turn necks and use bushing dies, but I'm still using the expander ball method.
- I have shot and still shoot HM scores with a service rifle using only FL dies.  I am just now messing with bushing dies.  Stick to the FL dies, you will not see a difference on target for the most part.  


Using the gage (note how there are graduated steps cut into the tool) I have determined that I have .006" of tension using the Redding Competition die with the carbide ball expander upgrade vs .003" using the RCBS neck die. As I understand it, the Redding die appears to have an excessive amount of tension, while the RCBS seems to be dead on. Does that sound right? Is that typical for "Competition" grade dies? Should I contact Redding concerning the OD of the expander ball? Am I being too anal? I haven't shot any brass that was only neck sized yet so I have nothing to compare as far as grouping goes.
- Use some calipers on the inside of the sized cases and measure the ID of the sized case.  .006 neck tension would mean that the ID of your cases is .218 and this is too much neck tension, I don't think that's an accurate reading so I would check again, im skeptical that you are getting that much neck tension but its possible.  Measure the expander ball, that .001 will tell you what your neck tension is if your using an expander ball or if the ball is .222, then the brass would spring back to .221, .224-.221 = .003 neck tension which should match what your calipers tell you.  With .006 tension you would have a hard time getting bullets in the case.  

A dial caliper has told me everything I need to know about neck tension even though its not the most accurate tool.  I do have a ball mic too but I don't use it for neck thickness.  Bushing dies add complexity and are best used without the expander ball and after turning necks.  

The carbide ball is close to the decapping pin on your Redding die correct?


Again, thanks for your replies.
4/26/2015 9:45:56 PM EDT
[#8]
If you are using bushings with TiN coatings, you do not have to lube the necks to size the necks.

When your reloading career gets to the point you are concerned with neck tension, its time to put the expander ball out to pasture and use bushing type dies.

Various kinds of shooting scenarios tolerate various kinds of neck tension.
0.000    benchrest shooting where the cartridge will not be removed from the chamber without firing.
0.001    benchrest shooting where the cartridge can be removed from the chamber without firing--bullet is NOT touching the lands.
0.002    Tactical shooting cartridge can be inserted and removed, bullet can be seated into the lands, cartridge will suffer no abuse from point of loading to final firing position
0.0025  Tactical shooting cartridge can be inserted and removed, bullet can be seated into the lands, cartridge can suffer moderate abuse.
0.003    Autoloader capable cycling generally without the need for cannelure.

Once the proper neck tension is found, one can make final adjustments with how long on the neck the bushing sizes. I do all of mine to at least 90% neck sizing.