Posted: 1/31/2016 6:47:20 PM EDT
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I do a fair amount of backpacking, especially in the Smokies. I'm interested in getting a radio for use in making contacts. Currently my everywhere radio is a FT-857D, use it at my house and portable. Eventually want to set it up for mobile in my truck.
I am still researching which "base" station radio I want to get, but currently that is the FT-857D. What are your thoughts on the Elecraft KX3, FT-817 or the FT-857D as the backpacking radio? Weight, durability and battery life are all important. I do like the idea of the internal tuner on the elecraft. I know the FT-817 has a great reputation for this. I have used the FT-857D, with external battery. Thoughts? Pro/Cons to consider? Any other radios that should be part of the equation? |
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CW
LNR Mountain Topper weight = 4.4 ounces LNR EFT-MTR Antenna weight = 4 ounces and can be hung vertically with one support (aka, a tree limb). 9v transistor radio battery Key 550 cord oh and the heaviest, bulkiest thing...........coax ------------------------------------------------------- Complete station for $350 US dollars and a realistic size and weight for backpacking. This rig is at LEAST 1/4 to 1/8 the size of the FT-817 and runs off a 9v battery. This radio literally fits in the palm of your hand. I have made contacts all over the world with it including a bunch of contacts including DX contacts using it just like you would be: that antenna pulled up in a tree on some cord and the rig running off a 9v battery. This rig puts out enough power to work anything in the world. IF you spent 20 minutes a day for two weeks, you could be on the air with CW. |
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Yup, if you can do CW thats a major qualifier, that or Data. 5 or 10W SSB can be doable and both the elecraft and the 817 will be lighter than the 857 but if SSB is all you brung you might find it difficult or impossible to make contacts with that little power depending on conditions/antenna etc. CW makes it MUCH easier to make contacts. Also what sort of antenna system are you planning on using? That will determine if you need a tuner.
I see the 857 specced at 4.6lbs sans anything, probably call it 5lbs with a mic. Realistically my full 817 setups are in the 5.8 lb range counting amps/tuner/external and internal batts, all the audio stuff, CW key etc, basically everything but the carry bag and antenna. For a plain jane CW setup its 3lbs sans antenna. (these weights are also before I switched the radio over to an internal LiPo, so I probably saved a few ounces there vs nimh batts I was running. 817 setup I've done the math on a similar setups with the KX3, and I might save a bit of weight vs my 817, probably 1/2 a pound compared to a comparable 817 setup. But it would be pretty spendy. Again, just going of posted specs, with the 857 you'd probably be in the 7-10lb range depending on what tuner and battery you brought along. the main disadvantage of the 857 vs the other two is the receive current draw which is quite hefty. I like the 817 due to the massive flexibility of the thing, I can basically do anything with it, and for hiking I can strip it down to save weight, or if I need extra capability I bring that along. Also, do you plan on any sort of VHF comms/repeaters/satellites? (don't joke, I've done satcom hiking before) both the 817/857 are totally good for that, the KX3 can do 2M now but its even more $$$. |
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I have owned both, and ultimately decided on the FT-817 for my field radio. The KX3 is a fantastic radio, but it always felt 'fragile' to me. The big screen and knobs were just asking to get damaged or get rained on. To guard against that I put the KX3 in a small pelican case which then voided any size or weight savings it had over any other radio. The shape of the KX3, even though it's technically smaller than the FT-817 was more awkward to pack as well. The slim hardback book shape of the FT-817 lends itself to slipping into the dead spaces in your pack. The FT-817 feels sturdier, and I don't mind if it gets a few rain drops on it, and I feel comfortable just putting it in my bag with no further protection than a Ziploc bag. The KX3 has a TON of features and options, and for the desktop operator they are wonderful, but when I was in a hurry to make contacts in the field before the next thunderstorm rolled in, the last thing I wanted to be doing was screwing with said setttings. The FT-817 is stupid simple to get on the air with. Yes, the filters and receiver are superior on the KX3, but when I was in the field with zero manmade noise it really didn't make any difference. I did side by side comparisons and a barely discernable station on the KX3 was also barely discernable on the FT-817. The IF level DSP Noise Reducer on the KX3 is the latest and greatest but it makes everything sound like youre inside a 55 gal drum. The BHI DSP on the FT-817 cuts the noise and leaves everything else sounding normal. The main thing I miss on the KX3 is the stereo effect audio - that was great. The speaker on the KX3 is weak sauce. The KX3 is pretty lame on 2m, and doesn't even have 70cm. For the cost of the 2m module you'd be better off just bringing along a dedicated HT. The last straw was when my KX3 drifted a ton on JT65 and WSPR - enough that it wouldn't decode and made those modes unusable. I know there's temperature alignment procedures and bigger heat sinks to fix that, but that shouldn't be necessary on a $1400 radio, when my cheapo FT-817 has ZERO drift, even on long transmissions. Just my $0.02 ETA: When I get my CW up and running I'll take the Elecraft KX1 along. It's super small and light, with 4 band capability and internal tuner. |
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Quoted:
CW LNR Mountain Topper weight = 4.4 ounces LNR EFT-MTR Antenna weight = 4 ounces and can be hung vertically with one support (aka, a tree limb). 9v transistor radio battery Key 550 cord oh and the heaviest, bulkiest thing...........coax ------------------------------------------------------- Complete station This rig is at LEAST 1/4 to 1/8 the size of the FT-817 and runs off a 9v battery. This radio literally fits in the palm of your hand. I have made contacts all over the world with it including a bunch of contacts including DX contacts using it just like you would be: that antenna pulled up in a tree on some cord and the rig running off a 9v battery. This rig puts out enough power to work anything in the world. IF you spent 20 minutes a day for two weeks, you could be on the air with CW. I'm not sure I buy 1/4 or 1/8th the size... Looking at the specs its about half for the mountain topper. And If we are talking about backpacking CW rigs, I'd far rather have a KX1 (because thats what I have). But thats JMO. How long can you actually run the LNR rig off a 9V? at a .4-.5A draw which it specs you have about 300mA capacity for a 9V. Also, I take some umbrage about the CW, its way easier for some people to learn than others, it took me months at 20min per day to get reasonable at low speed. And if I don't do it for a few weeks or a month, it takes weeks to get it back. |
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The KX3 would be an awesome backpacking radio. For QRP the world opens up with CW. Mainly because CW operators are willing to listen in the mud for signals. The CW feather in your cap will give you the bigger bang for the buck on any QRP rig. Well, CW is vastly more efficient as a mode, 5W CW = 100W SSB or however that actually goes. |
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I'm not sure I buy 1/4 or 1/8th the size... Looking at the specs its about half for the mountain topper. And If we are talking about backpacking CW rigs, I'd far rather have a KX1 (because thats what I have). But thats JMO. How long can you actually run the LNR rig off a 9V? Quoted:
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CW LNR Mountain Topper weight = 4.4 ounces LNR EFT-MTR Antenna weight = 4 ounces and can be hung vertically with one support (aka, a tree limb). 9v transistor radio battery Key 550 cord oh and the heaviest, bulkiest thing...........coax ------------------------------------------------------- Complete station This rig is at LEAST 1/4 to 1/8 the size of the FT-817 and runs off a 9v battery. This radio literally fits in the palm of your hand. I have made contacts all over the world with it including a bunch of contacts including DX contacts using it just like you would be: that antenna pulled up in a tree on some cord and the rig running off a 9v battery. This rig puts out enough power to work anything in the world. IF you spent 20 minutes a day for two weeks, you could be on the air with CW. I'm not sure I buy 1/4 or 1/8th the size... Looking at the specs its about half for the mountain topper. And If we are talking about backpacking CW rigs, I'd far rather have a KX1 (because thats what I have). But thats JMO. How long can you actually run the LNR rig off a 9V? I don't know. I guess to find that out, you would need to put a wattmeter on the radio and monitor your power output to see it drop. I never did that. Or I guess the easier thing to do would be to measure the battery voltage now and then: the manual says you can use the radio at 6 volts. Obviously you do this at home and get a feel for how long you can operate on one battery. I haven't backpacked for many years, but when I did I can't imagine spending more than maybe an hour on the air a day. I made my dinner, sat around for a little while and got some sleep. However, that being said, and based on my limited experience with it; I would feel very comfortable going on a backpacking trip for a week and taking two batteries (just in case). I have never changed the battery on mine, but then I never used it extensively on the battery. My main experience of using it with a 9v battery was this past Thanksgiving. I spend Thanksgiving at my sister's house and usually stay there for 4-5 days. When I get there, I use a Cresent wrench to get a line up in a tree. I hoist up the antenna and run the feedline into a living room window using a towel for insulation. I can then sit in the living room with everybody else and now and then, slip in some ear buds and work a little CW. I probably make 3-4 contacts a day; so I made let's say a dozen contacts. When I got done, the battery was still over 8 volts. Again, I never used the battery long enough to get one to 6 volts. When I am at home, I normally run the rig off my station power supply but I have made a handful of QSOs from home using a 9v battery when I first wanted to try it out. I put Power Poles on the cord and made up a cord with a 9v battery connector with Power Poles so I can easily switch back and forth. Just a comment: I love the 817 and the KX3. I own both of them as well as a KX1. But, we are talking backpacking here (not camping, or hiking, or just portable operation) where every ounce and inch counts and ounces equal pounds. If I was going to be living out of a rucksack that I had to carry every day, all day; in the mountains, I would not take an 817 or a KX3. Let alone an 857 with the battery to run it off of. The KX1 might be a strong contender if I didn't already own this Mountain Topper which for me would be perfect for backpacking. The KX1 has a lot going for it such as internal batteries and a built in tuner not to mention more bands. |
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So what I am really learning is that I need to get my butt busy learning CW better no matter which radio I go with.
I really like the idea of the KX3 and being able to leave it in my truck and work digital modes as well. Could also do that with the FT817 or 857D also, and already have Signalink. I will probably become a radio hoarder. |
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So what I am really learning is that I need to get my butt busy learning CW better no matter which radio I go with. I really like the idea of the KX3 and being able to leave it in my truck and work digital modes as well. Could also do that with the FT817 or 857D also, and already have Signalink. I will probably become a radio hoarder. Well, there are a couple things that CW has going for it. First of all, the radio can be smaller and lighter. It is a much simpler design. Second is that for a given power output, CW is much more efficient. You get more bang for the buck. This doesn't mean you have to use CW, but when you are running low power, and you have a less than optimal antenna, it works better. And if you are trying to save weight, this goes double. |
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So what I am really learning is that I need to get my butt busy learning CW better no matter which radio I go with. I really like the idea of the KX3 and being able to leave it in my truck and work digital modes as well. Could also do that with the FT817 or 857D also, and already have Signalink. I will probably become a radio hoarder. CW is a big force multiplier if you will, but at least in my case I have to keep at it or I loose it and have to relearn it every once in a while. I use my 817 alot for digital. With a wolphi link and a cell phone you can work digital sort-of reasonably. Some guys use tablets which I imagine would be easier. I don't think the KX3 would have much in advantages over the 817 for data work, and as SS mentioned earlier it has some issues with frequency stability and durability. |
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I don't know. I guess to find that out, you would need to put a wattmeter on the radio and monitor your power output to see it drop. I never did that. Or I guess the easier thing to do would be to measure the battery voltage now and then: the manual says you can use the radio at 6 volts. Obviously you do this at home and get a feel for how long you can operate on one battery. I haven't backpacked for many years, but when I did I can't imagine spending more than maybe an hour on the air a day. I made my dinner, sat around for a little while and got some sleep. However, that being said, and based on my limited experience with it; I would feel very comfortable going on a backpacking trip for a week and taking two batteries (just in case). I have never changed the battery on mine, but then I never used it extensively on the battery. My main experience of using it with a 9v battery was this past Thanksgiving. I spend Thanksgiving at my sister's house and usually stay there for 4-5 days. When I get there, I use a Cresent wrench to get a line up in a tree. I hoist up the antenna and run the feedline into a living room window using a towel for insulation. I can then sit in the living room with everybody else and now and then, slip in some ear buds and work a little CW. I probably make 3-4 contacts a day; so I made let's say a dozen contacts. When I got done, the battery was still over 8 volts. Again, I never used the battery long enough to get one to 6 volts. When I am at home, I normally run the rig off my station power supply but I have made a handful of QSOs from home using a 9v battery when I first wanted to try it out. I put Power Poles on the cord and made up a cord with a 9v battery connector with Power Poles so I can easily switch back and forth. Just a comment: I love the 817 and the KX3. I own both of them as well as a KX1. But, we are talking backpacking here (not camping, or hiking, or just portable operation) where every ounce and inch counts and ounces equal pounds. If I was going to be living out of a rucksack that I had to carry every day, all day; in the mountains, I would not take an 817 or a KX3. Let alone an 857 with the battery to run it off of. The KX1 might be a strong contender if I didn't already own this Mountain Topper which for me would be perfect for backpacking. Quoted:
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CW LNR Mountain Topper weight = 4.4 ounces LNR EFT-MTR Antenna weight = 4 ounces and can be hung vertically with one support (aka, a tree limb). 9v transistor radio battery Key 550 cord oh and the heaviest, bulkiest thing...........coax ------------------------------------------------------- Complete station This rig is at LEAST 1/4 to 1/8 the size of the FT-817 and runs off a 9v battery. This radio literally fits in the palm of your hand. I have made contacts all over the world with it including a bunch of contacts including DX contacts using it just like you would be: that antenna pulled up in a tree on some cord and the rig running off a 9v battery. This rig puts out enough power to work anything in the world. IF you spent 20 minutes a day for two weeks, you could be on the air with CW. I'm not sure I buy 1/4 or 1/8th the size... Looking at the specs its about half for the mountain topper. And If we are talking about backpacking CW rigs, I'd far rather have a KX1 (because thats what I have). But thats JMO. How long can you actually run the LNR rig off a 9V? I don't know. I guess to find that out, you would need to put a wattmeter on the radio and monitor your power output to see it drop. I never did that. Or I guess the easier thing to do would be to measure the battery voltage now and then: the manual says you can use the radio at 6 volts. Obviously you do this at home and get a feel for how long you can operate on one battery. I haven't backpacked for many years, but when I did I can't imagine spending more than maybe an hour on the air a day. I made my dinner, sat around for a little while and got some sleep. However, that being said, and based on my limited experience with it; I would feel very comfortable going on a backpacking trip for a week and taking two batteries (just in case). I have never changed the battery on mine, but then I never used it extensively on the battery. My main experience of using it with a 9v battery was this past Thanksgiving. I spend Thanksgiving at my sister's house and usually stay there for 4-5 days. When I get there, I use a Cresent wrench to get a line up in a tree. I hoist up the antenna and run the feedline into a living room window using a towel for insulation. I can then sit in the living room with everybody else and now and then, slip in some ear buds and work a little CW. I probably make 3-4 contacts a day; so I made let's say a dozen contacts. When I got done, the battery was still over 8 volts. Again, I never used the battery long enough to get one to 6 volts. When I am at home, I normally run the rig off my station power supply but I have made a handful of QSOs from home using a 9v battery when I first wanted to try it out. I put Power Poles on the cord and made up a cord with a 9v battery connector with Power Poles so I can easily switch back and forth. Just a comment: I love the 817 and the KX3. I own both of them as well as a KX1. But, we are talking backpacking here (not camping, or hiking, or just portable operation) where every ounce and inch counts and ounces equal pounds. If I was going to be living out of a rucksack that I had to carry every day, all day; in the mountains, I would not take an 817 or a KX3. Let alone an 857 with the battery to run it off of. The KX1 might be a strong contender if I didn't already own this Mountain Topper which for me would be perfect for backpacking. I agree about the backpacking comments. I used my 817 for backpacking for a few trips and decided I wanted something lighter. I went through most of the available rigs out there a few years back and nothing quite beat the KX1 for size/weight/capability for backpacking. With the lithium batts its under a pound, it has an ATU so the antenna is super light 1 maybe 2oz. It has 80-40-30-20 band wise and very low current draw on both TX and RX and about 2x the output power of the LNR rig, plus it can receive SSB signals quite well, plus you could easily run it a week on the lithiums without issue. Just doing the math off the cuff on it you might get two hours or so of HAM use with a 9V. 400-500ma draw 40% duty cycle for TX/RX and 300mah battery capacity |
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Yeah, I edited my previous post (probably while you were typing yours) to include that if I was going on a backpacking trip and I didn't already own the Mountain Topper, the KX1 would definitely be my rig of choice for the reasons you mentioned.
It has a lot going for it in a small package. I have owned one for years and it is one of my all time favorite rigs. Just don't ask me to build another one. It was about the limit of eye sight and I was very nervous when I put the 30/80 meter board in and had to cut the circuit board traces. I just kept thinking that I had a lot of money in this thing and I didn't want to turn it into a brick. 
The KX1 would be a Cadillac rig for backpacking. The Mountain Topper would be a very basic, lightweight functional radio that would probably do everything you need it to do. |
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Yeah, I edited my previous post to include that if I was going on a backpacking trip and I didn't already own the Mountain Topper, the KX1 would definitely be my rig of choice for the reasons you mentioned. It has a lot going for it in a small package. I have owned one for years and it is one of my all time favorite rigs. Just don't ask me to build another one. It was about the limit of eye sight and I was very nervous when I put the 30/80 meter board in and had to cut the circuit board traces. I just kept thinking that I had a lot of money in this thing and I didn't want to turn it into a brick.
The KX1 would be a Cadillac rig for backpacking. The Mountain Topper would be a very basic, lightweight functional radio that would probably do everything you need it to do. KX1 is king! 
It also has the selectable bandwidth filter which is a truly amazing thing, I own no other radio that can do that, and it is awesome for CW just turn the dial and you go from SSB bandwith to just your CW signal, compared to that functionality finding signals with my 817 is a nightmare with its narrow CW filter. The PFR-3 is also another good backpack rig. It has a manual ATU built in as well. My main issue with the Mtn topper was that it had no ATU (and hey no trees on mountain tops to setup an end fed) |
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I currently use an 817ND as my base station. The primary difference between base station and portable being that I have a good antenna making up for the 5w. That being said...
The 817 is my backpacking, camping and field day radio using a homebrew endfed. While I've had good phone reports across CONUS, I can hear alot more than they can hear me. CW is always an option but sadly I've been struggling trying to learn. Digimodes is where I spend most of my time and have very good results. My next project is to play around with Wolphi apps and interface. This'll allow digimodes via your smartphone or tablet. It shouldn't add any appreciable weight or bulk yet give near the same "punch" as CW. |
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I currently use an 817ND as my base station. The primary difference between base station and portable being that I have a good antenna making up for the 5w. That being said... The 817 is my backpacking, camping and field day radio using a homebrew endfed. While I've had good phone reports across CONUS, I can hear alot more than they can hear me. CW is always an option but sadly I've been struggling trying to learn. Digimodes is where I spend most of my time and have very good results. My next project is to play around with Wolphi apps and interface. This'll allow digimodes via your smartphone or tablet. It shouldn't add any appreciable weight or bulk yet give near the same "punch" as CW. Agree on all points. You will like the wolphi link, it weighs nothing and allows psk/rtty operation with his apps (probably other apps too). The interface is a bit clunky IMO but it does work. Also, you can just use the app and a mic, it will work without the cable if you want to try it out first. Also, the first rule of QRP, is to never let the other guy know you are QRP until after you make the contact... |
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Also, the first rule of QRP, is to never let the other guy know you are QRP until after you make the contact... Yep. Digimodes aren't a problem but I usually wait until we trade signal reports and get to bragging about setups. Last guy I spoke to was complimenting my +5 over when I told him I was 5w. After he had me repeat my power, he laughed and said I was easier to copy than some closer running 100w. This QSO was from MN to VA. |
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Yep. Digimodes aren't a problem but I usually wait until we trade signal reports and get to bragging about setups. Last guy I spoke to was complimenting my +5 over when I told him I was 5w. After he had me repeat my power, he laughed and said I was easier to copy than some closer running 100w. This QSO was from MN to VA. Quoted:
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Also, the first rule of QRP, is to never let the other guy know you are QRP until after you make the contact... Yep. Digimodes aren't a problem but I usually wait until we trade signal reports and get to bragging about setups. Last guy I spoke to was complimenting my +5 over when I told him I was 5w. After he had me repeat my power, he laughed and said I was easier to copy than some closer running 100w. This QSO was from MN to VA. Yeah, not all signal paths are equal, and which way your antenna is pointing makes a difference too. Power ain't everything. Though I know guys that brag about not picking up QRP calls specifically, so I usually don't advertise unless someone is specfically opening up for QRP stations. |
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Are you talking about doing real backpacking or a half mile walk from your car? This makes a huge difference.
CW is the way to go with an ultra portable radio. There are several tiny, Altoids can sized CW radios available on the market. I have both a FT817 and a KX3. The Yaesu is my Go To radio for portable ops, especially on CW. It does an amazing job with an optional 300 Hz filter installed. The KX3 is more like a cool toy to play with. I'm not too crazy about it. I use my FT857 if I'm able to bring it instead of the ft817. Higher power output is a huge plus as long as I can bring the radio and larger batteries with me. |
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Are you talking about doing real backpacking or a half mile walk from your car? This makes a huge difference. CW is the way to go with an ultra portable radio. There are several tiny, Altoids can sized CW radios available on the market. I have both a FT817 and a KX3. The Yaesu is my Go To radio for portable ops, especially on CW. It does an amazing job with an optional 300 Hz filter installed. The KX3 is more like a cool toy to play with. I'm not too crazy about it. I use my FT857 if I'm able to bring it instead of the ft817. Higher power output is a huge plus as long as I can bring the radio and larger batteries with me. Real backpacking, 15 to 20 mile days |
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Real backpacking, 15 to 20 mile days Quoted:
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Are you talking about doing real backpacking or a half mile walk from your car? This makes a huge difference. CW is the way to go with an ultra portable radio. There are several tiny, Altoids can sized CW radios available on the market. I have both a FT817 and a KX3. The Yaesu is my Go To radio for portable ops, especially on CW. It does an amazing job with an optional 300 Hz filter installed. The KX3 is more like a cool toy to play with. I'm not too crazy about it. I use my FT857 if I'm able to bring it instead of the ft817. Higher power output is a huge plus as long as I can bring the radio and larger batteries with me. Real backpacking, 15 to 20 mile days Learn CW and get a KX1. My total backpacking weight for a KX1 is 18.8oz with antenna and you can run that for a week or more. I've done it with a FT817, but by the time you get a usable kit together you are talking real pounds like 4-7lbs depending on what you end up taking for antennas, extra power etc I've got a pile of "configs" I use weighed out to .1oz accuracy with all the shit you actually need to take and it adds up very fast. I've done it in the past with much heavier rigs, but I doubt you'd want to do that to yourself. |
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Hone your CW skills. You won't regret it.
Join the SKCC and hang out around our operating frequencies. You'll be surprised at how rapidly your CW speed and quality will improve. If finances are limited, look into the Elecraft K1 with internal antenna tuner. It builds about like the old Heathkits. Set it up for 40 and 20 Meters. Oh, and get a couple of goats and join SOTA. |