Posted: 4/15/2010 9:57:54 PM EDT
Rather than the typical "help me pick a rig" thread, I'd like to back into a decision based on some of the common features. Having passed my Extra on Monday  , I'm getting ever closer to convincing myself that I "need" an HF rig 
Anyway, I don't have a lot of $ to spend, but I want the best piece of stuff I can get for my $, based on some (I think) important criteria... There appears to be 3-4 tiers of stuff: Entry level –– IC-718, etc for < $1K. The mobile-like "everything" rigs, like the IC-7000 for ~$1K-$1500. In here also are the 2nd tier base rigs like the IC-7200, and some of the other "everything" rigs that do HF and VHF/UHF. Then there's the pretty good stuff, like the IC-7600, and finally the contest rigs like the 7800. I'm using Icom-speak here because I'm more familiar with their models, but I'm not an Icom bigot, and nothing stopping me from getting a Kenwood or Yaesu. I think honestly the last 2 tiers of stuff are out based on price –– certainly the contest tier is. Realistically the $3K rigs are out too. If the XYL found out I spent $3K on a radio she'd just be the X... So, based on this long-winded preamble... Some of the Key features I see are these:
So, these are some of the differentiating things that come to my mind. How important are these, why, and what else is there? The other thing that I think is pretty important, but I don't know how to categorize, is how good or shitty is the receiver on a rig (selectivity, quiet, etc)? How to figure this out? Please feel free to offer any advice on an HF rig, but please be specific as to why you think those things are important. Make/Model recommendations also welcome with same level of specifics... Thanks is advance and sorry to ramble, -Slice |
|
This page is a good list of your basic options, everything from $500 to $15,000:
http://www.universal-radio.com/CATALOG/hamhf.html That's NOT the best price, necessarily, nor would you necessarily want to get your radio new. It's just a clean breakdown of what's currently available. Make sure you study the eham reviews of any rig that catches your eye. Also check the manufacture dates on older radios; the band layout has changed slightly over time, and older radios may not support currently permitted frequencies or modes. If I were looking for a new radio, I'd lean toward the IC-7000, but you'll really get decent performance out of something that costs half that. Successful DX'ing is 50% antenna, 30% operator, 10% luck, 5% power and cabling, and 5% radio. |
|
Some of the Key features I see are these:
DSP: IF vs. AF? I think I want IF-DSP. Based on how I understand it to work, it's "better", which also explains why it shows up on more of the expensive rigs. Is there an argument to this point that I just don't see? IF is supposed to be better, but I've owned some good outboard audio DSP units that are amazing. VHF/UHF capability: This is a nice feature, but not something I want to pay several $100 for. I have a VHF mobile rig that I use to get on the local repeaters, though I have to admit that the idea of 100W of 2m SSB is intriguing... I had a FT-897, which had VHF/UHF, and did not find that to be an advantage. I really preferred separate HF and VHF rigs. The nature of use is different, and often I am monitoring the local 2m repeaters while working the HF rig. Built-in tuner: Based on a thread I had here a week or so ago, this isn't something I want to pay for. From everything I can tell, I want an external tuner anyway. Most built in tuners only tune up to 3:1 SWR. The LDG automatic tuners easily tune 10:1 SWR, and most of the manual tuners will do that or more. Mobile rig: I'm going to use this as a base rig. I think I'd rather have a full-sized radio, so smaller doesn't really buy anything, but doesn't really hurt. Not into the QRP thing ... yet. Agree... for my base station I want a bigger rig with a large display. Dual "receive": Maybe I'm not calling this the right thing, but the ability to watch more than 1 freq at a time, or to split xmit/recv frequencies. This seems like a real + to me, but maybe I'm wrong? I often work several nets in an evening... a good feature. I had a FT-897 (similar features to the 857D and 897D). It had 6m, 2m, 70 cm, in addition to the HF bands, but it was very difficult to operate. A case of too many features and way too few buttons... thus a difficult menu system (nearly 100 items in the menu). Some users dislike the famous (or infamous) menu system, others have little or no trouble with it. There were some features and I never figured out how to use despite reading the manual many times. But the radio is loaded with features. Due to the FT-897 and 897D's popularity there is a number of good accessories available for it. This 897 is equipped with the LDG AT-897 tuner screwed on the side, and is by far the preferred tuner for that rig (over the Yaesu tuner). There is the Yaesu FP-30 power supply installed in the bottom of the rig. See it? Of course you can't. Isn't that neat? But a very good accessory is the LDG FT-Meter, which you see on top, a big analog meter that is easy to use. 
The IC-718 is a very easy, intuitive rig which I really enjoy. I have two of them. They are so easy to operate you can easily operate it without ever having read the manual, though accessing a few adjustable features, "set once and forget" are easy to learn. Mediocre DSP, but the West Mountain Radio CLR-SPKR or similar from other mfgs is an easy addition. Icom 718 with Samlex SEC-1235M power supply and Ameritron ARB-704 relay/buffer (to key the amplifier). You can see the West Mountain CLR-SPKR on the right. It has a built in 2w amplifer and DSP unit. It requires 12 vdc to operate. This DSP speaker can make the difference in an enjoyable "net night" or having to go in the house and watch TV. 
My other IC-718, with Samlex SEC-1223 power supply and LDG IT-100 tuner. 
I now have a Ten-Tec Jupiter, which has superb receive, and fantastic DSP. Simple to operate, yet loaded with good features. Can even be run in "Pegasus Emulation Mode", which is a SDR system. I am really enjoying this radio. It is HF only, that is, up to 30 Mhz. Big display with "fish finder" (spectrum display). The little peaks sticking up out of the noise are likely other stations. Or maybe not, but something to check out. 
I soon found that the West Mountain CLR-SPKR was unneeded with the Jupiter. I have set the Ten-Tec mic aside and now have a Heil HM-10 Dual Element mic. Heil mics are a great upgrade to nearly any rig. |
|
[Successful DX'ing is 50% antenna, 30% operator, 10% luck, 5% power and cabling, and 5% radio.
That's the key. I currently use an IC-725 that has been to Guam, Australia, and various other places. And I've use basic radio's down in Antarctica and several Pacific Islands. I had no problem working folks. (Of course, I was on the one causing the pileups ) I'm thinking of picking up a DSP unit to help improve my rx, but the basic rig still works fine.
In my case, with the XYL, kids, home, etc... my finances are like 25% taxes, 66% wife, kids, and bills, 8% savings, 1% me
It's kind of like a car, you can get a basic version that will get you from A to B, or you can do it in style with more $$$. Just prioritize those items that you think you would really use, and if you get a good deal on the "options" go for it, otherwise, stick to you plan. just like buying a car. |
|
Don't discount some of the "classic" Kenwood rigs. The TS-130, 140, 430, 440, 530 are all also great radios that can be had at a great price.
I have had a lot of the newer rigs. My main, go-to rig for daily HF work is the TS-440SAT I gave under $300 for at the hamfest. Simple, easy to use, no menus just buttons and dials. I wish I had never sold my TS-130. |
|
Quoted:
Thanks is advance and sorry to ramble, -Slice slice, this is an excellent ramble! every single one of us has been in the same place, with the same questions. i am going to tangent off and ask you a simple, yet hard to answer question. it will lead us to help you in a more organic way, however. with the answer to this and one other, easier to answer question, i think we can as a community help you down a path you will be happy with. so the hard one first... 1) realistically, how much is your 2010 planned "total spend" on amateur radio? i am certainly not looking to say that the number you provide is too little, or too much, or too whatever. but it will help gauge a division of money across a radio + tuner + feedline + antenna. it will also help us guide you if you are, say just $100 more from a greater "value" (in whatever aspect). as some point, in every product line, the cost/performance curve starts to get pretty steep. bicycles, cars, ham radios, it doesn't matter. to go 0-60mph in 8 seconds takes a $20K car; 7 seconds requires a $30K car. so it seems that every second reduction requires another $10K expenditure. but then it gets complicated. 6 seconds requires more than $10K additional, and 5 seconds requires far, far more than $20K additional. and sub-5 requires serious coin, in the neighborhood of 5 times the cost of the 8 second car. but, somewhere on every product curve is a good value point for your needs. and then the easy one 2) what do you envision your HF antenna setup to be like? do you have space and supports for a long wire, or will you have a vertical? ar-jedi |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Thanks is advance and sorry to ramble, -Slice slice, this is an excellent ramble! every single one of us has been in the same place, with the same questions. i am going to tangent off and ask you a simple, yet hard to answer question. it will lead us to help you in a more organic way, however. with the answer to this and one other, easier to answer question, i think we can as a community help you down a path you will be happy with. so the hard one first... 1) realistically, how much is your 2010 planned "total spend" on amateur radio? i am certainly not looking to say that the number you provide is too little, or too much, or too whatever. but it will help gauge a division of money across a radio + tuner + feedline + antenna. it will also help us guide you if you are, say just $100 more from a greater "value" (in whatever aspect). as some point, in every product line, the cost/performance curve starts to get pretty steep. bicycles, cars, ham radios, it doesn't matter. to go 0-60mph in 8 seconds takes a $20K car; 7 seconds requires a $30K car. so it seems that every second reduction requires another $10K expenditure. but then it gets complicated. 6 seconds requires more than $10K additional, and 5 seconds requires far, far more than $20K additional. and sub-5 requires serious coin, in the neighborhood of 5 times the cost of the 8 second car. but, somewhere on every product curve is a good value point for your needs. and then the easy one 2) what do you envision your HF antenna setup to be like? do you have space and supports for a long wire, or will you have a vertical? ar-jedi Jedi, #1) Budget is relative I suppose, but realistically i"m going to need to put a cap somewhere around $1500-$1700. That's a "soft" range I suppose, but if this gets significantly more expensive than that I'll either compromise on equipment or wait until I can afford what I want. The whole buy/cry once thing... But NOT 0-60 in 5 sec... #2) I've got 10 acres, an old 40' TV tower made of rust, and a lot of trees. I've traded some PM's w/ AFM, and I think I can make some wire antenna's pretty cheap. I also think that this kind of experimentation will be some fun... I do have a 2M rig, some cable and spare parts of little stuff (wire, ground rod, etc). Where I get confused I think i the real value that some of the radio features bring, and does it live up to the marketing hype... Thanks again for everyone's help! -Slice |
|
Were I getting into HF now, and know what I know now, I'd take a look at the following: IC-7000- DC to Daylight, great filtering, split freqs. SG-230 automatic antenna matching unit. Cobra Ultralite folded dipole antenna http://www.k1jek.com/ YMMV 
|
|
since you already have a separate 2m radio... –– Icom IC7200 –– good receiver, IF DSP, easy-to-use front panel, field ready. –– LDG IT-100 autotuner (or Icom AH4 if you can swing one) –– OCF dipole w/4:1 balun, commercial (example link) or homebuilt. i actually think that comes in well under budget even with some extras thrown in (coax, lighting protection, etc) ar-jedi |
|
Quoted:
Were I getting into HF now, and know what I know now, I'd take a look at the following: IC-7000- DC to Daylight, great filtering, split freqs. SG-230 automatic antenna matching unit. Cobra Ultralite folded dipole antenna http://www.k1jek.com/ YMMV He copied me! He copied me!
Seriously, that is a great setup. And here's another vote for IF DSP. I don't know how people live without it, especially running digital modes. It's kind of a pain to use with the front panel but I've got every DSP related slider enabled in Ham Radio Deluxe radio control software on my PC and that makes it a snap. |
|
Quoted:
(trimmed) –– LDG IT-100 autotuner (or Icom AH4 if you can swing one) I have had very good performance from my IT-100 and other LDG products. The AH-4 is more expensive, but can be mounted outdoors by the feedpoint. –– OCF dipole w/4:1 balun, commercial (example link) or homebuilt. i actually think that comes in well under budget even with some extras thrown in (coax, lighting protection, etc) ar-jedi Here, you can save a few bucks... http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=10&f=22&t=632450 You can build this yourself and it will be every bit as good as the commercial items. Slice wrote: #2) I've got 10 acres, an old 40' TV tower made of rust, and a lot of trees. That's more than most of us have! You have room to make the 80 meter version (using the longer legs). No need for the snap hooks, just tie directly to the balun. Twist and solder the wires to the balun leads, no need for the PowerPoles. But DO seal the connection well. |
|
Quoted: Quoted: Were I getting into HF now, and know what I know now, I'd take a look at the following: IC-7000- DC to Daylight, great filtering, split freqs. SG-230 automatic antenna matching unit. Cobra Ultralite folded dipole antenna http://www.k1jek.com/ YMMV He copied me! He copied me! Seriously, that is a great setup. And here's another vote for IF DSP. I don't know how people live without it, especially running digital modes. It's kind of a pain to use with the front panel but I've got every DSP related slider enabled in Ham Radio Deluxe radio control software on my PC and that makes it a snap. Ohhhmmmm.....I'm tellin' Mom!! You copied me first!! Seems great minds think alike.....no?  |
|
Quoted:
Some of the Key features I see are these:
You've hit most of the key features, and I agree with your preferences. Repairability may be another important consideration, particularly if you anticipate using the rig in situations where factory service isn't available. With this in mind, you might also take a look at the Elecraft K2 - Since you assemble it yourself (or buy one from someone else who has assembled it with basic tools), it has a much higher probability of being repairable under "kitchen table" conditions than most other rigs. |
|
Quoted:
Repairability may be another important consideration, particularly if you anticipate using the rig in situations where factory service isn't available. With this in mind, you might also take a look at the Elecraft K2 - Since you assemble it yourself (or buy one from someone else who has assembled it with basic tools), it has much higher probably of being repairable under "kitchen table" conditions than most other rigs. Dangit, good point, every time I think I've figured out what I want to get, someone brings up something else and I go back to not knowing what to get again!LOL I'm shopping like Homeslice too, and I want a radio that is reliable like an AK, accurate and ergonomic like an AR, hits like a .50BMG, and is as cheap to get into as a .22LR.... 
I was going to punt and get the IC-7000, but now you've got me wondering about the Ellecraft... Curse you guys and your consarned logic! Now I'll be reading about these things for yet another entire night!
|
|
Quoted:
(trimmed) Since you assemble it yourself (or buy one from someone else who has assembled it with basic tools), it has a much higher probability of being repairable under "kitchen table" conditions than most other rigs. That was certainly the case with all of the Heathkit gear I built many moons ago (Uh, like, you mean, Dad, when dinosaurs roamed the earth? Shut up, punk!) as I was saying... I had no fears digging into equipment for repairs. I knew what every part was, what it did, I put it in, I could take it out and replace it. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
... That was certainly the case with all of the Heathkit gear I built many moons ago (Uh, like, you mean, Dad, when dinosaurs roamed the earth? Shut up, punk!) as I was saying... I had no fears digging into equipment for repairs. I knew what every part was, what it did, I put it in, I could take it out and replace it. Yep, kit manufacturers tend to design their products with ease-of-assembly in mind (i.e., using through-hole parts instead of surface-mount parts, uncluttered PCB layouts, simple test and alignment procedures) - and these same traits tend to make them easier to repair in the field. Also, kit manufacturers tend to use standard parts in lieu of proprietary ASICs, house-branded semiconductors, etc. For example, except for a custom LCD display, a few crystals and a couple of standard PIC micros loaded with proprietary software, just about every component in the K2 is a generic item you could order from Digi-Key or Mouser. Keeping a set of spare parts almost becomes practical and cost-effective again! It's true that a sloppy kit assembly job can greatly reduce reliability - and the factory QC from Yaesu, Icom and Kenwood has gotten VERY good in recent years. Still, most kit assembly errors become evident within the first few hours of operation ("infant mortality") - and it's nice to know that most potential problems wouldn't require a trip back to the factory service facility. |
|
Yes, but on the other hand, most electronics hobbiests that would tackle a kit have some good skills to begin with. I am amazed at the number of Heathkit products still being bought, sold, and traded, and they bring good prices considering they are not commercially made items. I know a half dozen guys with used Heathkit amps, and have seen some at hamfests.
So, guys, have no fear about kit built gear... it will the one of the best experiences you will ever have with electronics. |
|
congratulations on getting your extra
I say go out and find a clean used ICOM IC-718. add and IT-100 auto tuner, and get on the air. if you decide later, you can always sell it and buy something bigger later. Back in '93-94, I worked the world a simple YAESU FT-747 |
|
Thanks Derek!
I've got a bit of time to think about it –– still need to save up a few more $, trade/sell some other unused stuff, etc. in order to fund it. I really didn't think about going used but thats a pretty good idea. I live about 2-3 hoursa from Dayton, maybe I'll head up there in a few weeks and see whats around. Is there a pretty good selection of used stuff in the flea market? What I don't want to do is invest a bunch of bucks, then have it sit unused in the basement. Starting out used, while not w/ the equipment, is one way to test this out. |
|
Quoted:
Thanks Derek! I've got a bit of time to think about it –– still need to save up a few more $, trade/sell some other unused stuff, etc. in order to fund it. I really didn't think about going used but thats a pretty good idea. I live about 2-3 hoursa from Dayton, maybe I'll head up there in a few weeks and see whats around. Is there a pretty good selection of used stuff in the flea market? What I don't want to do is invest a bunch of bucks, then have it sit unused in the basement. Starting out used, while not w/ the equipment, is one way to test this out. FWIW, my entire HF rig cost me ~$500 3rd hand Icom 718 and a home-brewed dipole...and I hit Europe pretty much daily without a problem. You can spend a lot of money and get a lot of features, but if you simply want to get yourself set up for HF transmission, hit the Eham classifieds and find some used gear. You can always upgrade later....and depending on the deals you find, you can probably convert your radio back into cash later. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Look at the FT 857. Price is <$900 and has all the features you will ever need, esp. if you want an external tuner. I don't see the 857 making a great base rig. A great mobile, yes. Iv'e got two, one base, one mobile. I've had good luck...but the base is mostly run digital via computer. Either way, it's nice to have the same rig in both locations. |
|
Another vote for the IC-718. You can pick up a new one (with factory-installed DSP) for $619; a used one for under $500. It's a lot of transceiver for the money. The 718 helped me get 100 countries in the log in about a year, including VK, ZL, JA, Antarctica, etc, all with 100 watts and wire antennas from my QTH in suburbia.
The drawbacks of the 718 are few, but here they are: no VHF/UHF, no 60M, fixed AGC, clackety QSK, no stock CW filter, no internal tuner, built-in speaker isn't great. Another option would be an IC-706MKIIG or IC-7000; either one would give you VHF/UHF and 60M, and the IC-7000 has built-in filters. However, those rigs are really small and not real friendly as base stations (tiny buttons/knobs, lots of menus). If you go with the 718, I'd recommend an auto tuner from LDG. Also, if you're going to use CW get a W4RT 500Hz CW filter. Another option would be a used, pre-built Elecraft K2. Or a stripped K3, but that would be outside the budget you've set. Good luck with your search. 73. |
|
Mmmmm this thread is now relevant to my interests For starting with the IC-718 - what would be a good compact antenna to use with the LDG IT-100? Unfortunately, I do not have space to be stringing out a super long dipole in my yard - and it would attract unwanted attention. Any compact verticals that would give me good performance to reach out to Europe? |
|
It's hard to beat a dipole. If you lack the space or the supports for both ends, you might try running one as an inverted V. I set mine up using a 31' Jackite fiberglass pole as a center support and a 1:1 current balun as a center insulator. Fed with coax. Downside is that they are monobanders, except for odd combinations like 15/40 and 30/80.
For stealth, I've set up a sloping inverted V off the peak of the roof using 26 AWG magnet wire, clothing buttons for insulators, and fishing line for tie-downs. You couldn't tell it was there unless it was pointed out to you. For a vertical, I use the same 31' fiberglass pole to support a 33' wire (wrap the wire around the pole a few times to take up the extra two feet). This works well on 10-40 meters. For 80 meters, I add in a coil made of 10' of wire wrapped around a small section of PVC pipe (about 4" OD). I use a remote tuner and a 4:1 unun everywhere but on 40M, where it is more or less resonant. Also coax fed. With verticals, I've found that ground radials are key. I use an S9 radial plate with about 20 radials. It's a PITA to set up (I can't leave it in place at this QTH), but the radials are a must. If you just wanted to get on the air, you could probably get away with 2-3 radials. Performance on the vertical on 10-40 meters is OK, but not as good as a dipole/inverted V. On 80 meters, it will load up with a tuner but it's not a very efficient radiator. If by "compact" you mean under 10 feet, then have a look at the results of the HFPack Vertical Antenna shootout. I'd be looking at a PAC-12 or MP1. Also checkout the Buddipole/Buddistick line. HFPack Vertical Antenna Shootout Buddistick S9 Antennas Balun Designs Good luck. Let us know how it works out. 73. |
|
Quoted: If by "compact" you mean under 10 feet, then have a look at the results of the HFPack Vertical Antenna shootout. I'd be looking at a PAC-12 or MP1. Also checkout the Buddipole/Buddistick line. HFPack Vertical Antenna Shootout Buddistick S9 Antennas Balun Designs Good luck. Let us know how it works out. 73. Thanks - MP1 looks like about what would work for me - so it looks like that will work to 40m - or 80m if you buy the separate coil for it. I might be able to hide a coil loaded dipole, depending on how long they'd be overall. Is there any issues mounting a coil loaded dipole on the edge of say, your roofline? If it's not too noticeable after painting it - or putting it in painted PVC, I might be able to make that work. Sorry, don't mean to derail thread from the topic of transceivers - back on topic - I'm starting to lean back toward the IC-718 personally as it seems to be best bang for the buck for a starter rig. I'd rather not blow $1500-$2000 if I can get away with spending $1000 on a base, antenna and tuner |
|
Quoted:
MP1 looks like about what would work for me I have the P1 from Blue Star. It's pretty comparable to the MP1 which I also looked at. It's a mediocre antenna. I don't think I'd try using it on a permanent basis. It's not very stealthy but I picked up an Eagle One 31' vertical at the Orlando hamfest. I've only had it on the air once and only briefly but got a great signal report out of NC. |
|
Quoted: Quoted: MP1 looks like about what would work for me I have the P1 from Blue Star. It's pretty comparable to the MP1 which I also looked at. It's a mediocre antenna. I don't think I'd try using it on a permanent basis. It's not very stealthy but I picked up an Eagle One 31' vertical at the Orlando hamfest. I've only had it on the air once and only briefly but got a great signal report out of NC. Anything sticking that far into the air is gonna get me in trouble I'm beginning to think a coiled dipole of some sort may be the only way I can go. |
|
For stealth, you might also try using your rain gutters as an antenna. You can find a bunch of writeups about this online. This can work surprisingly well, depending on the configuration of your gutters.
Another option would be to put a mobile HF antenna (e.g. Tarheel) on your vehicle, park it in the driveway, and then run coax to it from your shack (rolling it up when not in use). How about a dipole or magnetic loop in the attic? |
|
Another feature some of the radios have is a bandscope. How many of you guys who have one use it? How many who don't wish they did?
Seems to be a feature of the higher-end radios (tier 2+, really 3+?). Conceptually I can see how it would be useful, but not sure how much so in practice... Thanks, -Slice |
|
Quoted:
Mmmmm this thread is now relevant to my interests
For starting with the IC-718 - what would be a good compact antenna to use with the LDG IT-100? Unfortunately, I do not have space to be stringing out a super long dipole in my yard - and it would attract unwanted attention. Any compact verticals that would give me good performance to reach out to Europe? I have a Hustler 4BTV that works pretty well. you have to bury a shitload or radials, but that's mot hard to do some guys cover them in PVC and make them look like a flagpole. http://www.dxengineering.com/pdf/flagpole_antenna.pdf http://www.davidkoch.info/miscpages/flagpole.htm 
|