Posted: 9/19/2011 5:26:28 AM EDT
| I almost have the money saved up to purchase a pretty nice hunting rifle. Right now I have a Remington 700 in 270 win, a 700 police in 308 and a 7400 in 30-06. These calibers work great here in the mountains of North Carolina, but i really want something that will handle anything in North America (sort of a "last rifle"). I know the 30-06 would probably do it but the 7400 isnt particularly accurate and I would want something more if I was hunting in an area with large bears. I considered the 338 win mag because many consider it the minimum caliber for larger bears but I honestly don't think I could ever get used to the recoil. So right now I am thinking of maybe going with a good all weather bolt action in 300 mag. I know this is a little on the small side for stopping a mother bear bent on killing me but it is probably the largest caliber I can shoot well. I do reload and would be willing and able to put hundreds of rounds downrage in order to get used to the gun. Would this be an acceptable caliber? |
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If it is under 600 pounds, your .270 will do quite nicely (assuming you choose the correct bullet). While the .300 Magnums (H&H, Winchester, and Weatherby) can do the job on large Bears and Moose, going larger in diameter is (IMO) more comforting. If you handload, you can load the .338 Win Mag down to the power of a .338 Federal/.338-06. |
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Caliber is definitely one part of the recoil equation. It rarely pays to buy a rifle that kicks so hard that you cannot shoot well.
However, there are other parts to the recoil equation as well. These items can make a huge difference. Weight. Simply put, a heavy rifle kicks less. A superlight rifle in .30-06 will frequently kick harder than a bigger caliber but heavy rifle. If you want to moderate recoil, then buy an heavier gun. Stock design: Stocks that drop considerably have the effect of increasing felt recoil. Check the image of the savag 99 below. See how the stock drops aout 3 or 4 inches from the actual centerline of the barrel to the recoil pad? This is BAD. If your stock has relatively little drop, recoil is straight back into the shoulder instead of rotating up and into you face. A good stock design will help you handle recoil. One of the better recoil-handling designs I've seen is on the Reminton 673. Very little drop. In addition, a good stock for heavy kickers will have a wide recoil pad. It distributes the pressures over a wider area. Recoil is usually measured in ft/lbs. A common .243 in a 8 lb rifle (incl scope, etc) generates about 7 ft/lbs of recoil energy. That same rifle firing a 150 grn 308 load gives ya about 16 ft/lbs. Drop that 308 rifle weight to a mere 6.5 lbs and the recoil has climbed to 20 ft/lbs. However, recoil energy isn't everything. There is also recoil speed. How fast does the rifle come back??? I do not have a good measure of this. I just know that some cartridges seem to come back hard and fast, while others are more of a big, slow push. This is subjective. I personnally think that high velocity guns seem to come back faster and harder. I wanted a bigger rifle for moose. .338 was the obvious choice but I opted for a .350 Rem Mag. Make no mistake, it does recoil (31 ft lbs) but its a big slow push instead of the hard sharp kick of a 338 or 300 ultramag. I opted for a 673 in .350. purposely chose a relatively heavy scope and big steel rings and bases to add a bit of wieght. Combined with a good stock design the recoil is quite managable. I fired some 30-06's with shitty stock designs that seemed harder kicking. Personnally I do not think the 300 is as effective on really big critters as a true medium bore. I would take a .35 whelen with big 250 grain slugs over a faster but smaller 180 out of a 300. The bigger slwer bullets usually drive deeper and have the advantage of momentum. |
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Quoted: Caliber is definitely one part of the recoil equation. It rarely pays to buy a rifle that kicks so hard that you cannot shoot well. However, there are other parts to the recoil equation as well. These items can make a huge difference. Weight. Simply put, a heavy rifle kicks less. A superlight rifle in .30-06 will frequently kick harder than a bigger caliber but heavy rifle. If you want to moderate recoil, then buy an heavier gun. Stock design: Stocks that drop considerably have the effect of increasing felt recoil. Check the image of the savag 99 below. See how the stock drops aout 3 or 4 inches from the actual centerline of the barrel to the recoil pad? This is BAD. http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTqt6Obuj1dN810QvRHhHKWDUzF7jxyMGdt_hYlqjeiplvPJW3QrGVEQu3yzw If your stock has relatively little drop, recoil is straight back into the shoulder instead of rotating up and into you face. A good stock design will help you handle recoil. One of the better recoil-handling designs I've seen is on the Reminton 673. Very little drop. http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTy62EWdQHdhK6wqMHOkckZVsQ7QovpUcYSHXsgIuMbCpAkFusqqQ In addition, a good stock for heavy kickers will have a wide recoil pad. It distributes the pressures over a wider area. Recoil is usually measured in ft/lbs. A common .243 in a 8 lb rifle (incl scope, etc) generates about 7 ft/lbs of recoil energy. That same rifle firing a 150 grn 308 load gives ya about 16 ft/lbs. Drop that 308 rifle weight to a mere 6.5 lbs and the recoil has climbed to 20 ft/lbs. However, recoil energy isn't everything. There is also recoil speed. How fast does the rifle come back??? I do not have a good measure of this. I just know that some cartridges seem to come back hard and fast, while others are more of a big, slow push. This is subjective. I personnally think that high velocity guns seem to come back faster and harder. I wanted a bigger rifle for moose. .338 was the obvious choice but I opted for a .350 Rem Mag. Make no mistake, it does recoil (31 ft lbs) but its a big slow push instead of the hard sharp kick of a 338 or 300 ultramag. I opted for a 673 in .350. purposely chose a relatively heavy scope and big steel rings and bases to add a bit of wieght. Combined with a good stock design the recoil is quite managable. I fired some 30-06's with shitty stock designs that seemed harder kicking. Personnally I do not think the 300 is as effective on really big critters as a true medium bore. I would take a .35 whelen with big 250 grain slugs over a faster but smaller 180 out of a 300. The bigger slwer bullets usually drive deeper and have the advantage of momentum. Great choices if you live near Brown Bear, but I like the 9.3x62 Mauser even more. Thing is both the .35 Whelen is dead and the .350 Rem Mag is even more deader. |
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I live in Grizzly Country, and hunt elk in Grizzly country. I mainly use my .338 Win Mag or my .375 Ruger while elk hunting. Both of them drop Wapiti with authority, and I know they will handle bears. On the Plains I use a .300 RUM and a 7mm Rem Mag for deer and antelope, and I know they will handle a Mountain Lion, Black Bear...and starting next year, a wolf!!!!! |
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I had never heard of a stock design making a difference in recoil but it does make sense now. The impression I am getting is pretty much to grow some balls and go with the 338 and practice enough to be able to handle it well. Right now this is the rifle I am considering.
http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/catalog/detail.asp?family=001C&mid=535110#center It is pretty lightweight at 7.25 pounds but the butt is pretty close to being in line with the bore. It also has an aluminum bedding block and a good recoil pad and is free floated and made of stainless. What do you guys think? |
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That is an average weight for a synthetic stocked Magnum bolt gun. Think about 8.75 pounds, loaded, scoped, and slung. A handloaded 180gr AccuBond @ 2,800 fps will kill Deer, Caribou, and Black Bear very nicely, w/o a lot of recoil. A handloaded 200gr AccuBond @ 2,700 fps will kill small-medium sized Elk, again w/o big recoil. A full power .338 (225gr @ 2,750+ or a 250gr @ 2,650+) will handle the really big stuff. Shooting at this power level has some gitty up. Think 30-40 rounds at a bench sitting. Then again, you could be more "manly" than I and actually like heavy recoiling guns. |
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There is a decision for you to make:
Do you really, honestly think you are going to actually hunt Alaskan Grizzly bear? If the answer is yes, I'd buy the .338 or something similar. If the honest answer is "no", then skip the .338. A .300 will do elk, moose and the rest of it. There is little need for the medium bore magnums. Only you can answer this question. Again, be honest with yourself regarding finances, time, etc. If you decide to go for a medium bore, there are two ways to go. The .338 is more common than any of the .35 magnums. There is a decent selection of .338 bullets, and they are priced okay (none are cheap). The .35's are a bit scarcer but they have a serious advantage: You can load a variety of bullets intended for the .35 Remington as well as .358" pistol bullets. In all honesty haven't been too impressed with accuracy with teh pistol bullets in my gn but others like em for plinking. I do load .35 rem bullets and they make for cheap(er) practice. I strongly suspect that you could 'cheat' a bit with tht synthetic win . Pull the recoil pad off, and stuff some wieght in the stock. An extra 1/2 lb of weight would help recoil. Balance might change tough. Your seating position shooting will increase or decrease recoil. If you sit more or less upright, the recoil wll push you. If you sit such that you are hunched forward recoil will seem harder. Bench time with then .338 is never a lot of fun. if you do go for the 338, try moderate handloads first and work into it. make a coupleof dummy rounds (bullet, but no pimer or powder). Shoot with a friend and have him load your rifle and magazine, placing the dumin in there once in a while. You'll quickly discover if you are flinching. |
Thanks everyone for the imputs, they are greatly appreciated. I don't think I will ever hunt the big bears, but might possibly hunt in an area where they live. I would hate to go after elk with a smaller caliber and get killed by a bear because my rifle would not shut the animal down. That seems like a sure fire way to have a bad time 
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Since you reload, how about the .35 Whelen.
A friend has a Remington 700 in that caliber and he thinks it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. He had bagged just about everything on the lower 48 with that rifle except moose and brown bear. If you reload it can be just about anything you need. The other option is a 45-70 but your range will be limited. |
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Quoted:
Have you thought about 45-70? Just what I was thinking. I have a marlin 1895 that is just a blast with the regular lite factory trapdoor level loads although it really has plenty of power for deer and about anything found in the east and south. The Marlin has the ability to take some real kick ass loads that would be suitable for larger meaner critters. The real downside to the 45/70 is in hunting situations it has its limitations at distance. The irony is that in competition it is considered very good at long distance stuff but those competitions are at known distances. If one is skilled at range estimation or use of range finder along with knowing your load ballistics it can be done but is lots more work than some super magnum laser beam. I am just considering your tieing up a stack of cash in some big bore rifle that you "might"have some future use for and it mostly sitting in the back of your safe because it just pounds the heck out of you and isn't much fun at all. Compare that to grabbing a Marlin and getting all kinds of general range and hunting use out of with the ability to switch over to the big hammer loads if the need ever presents itself. I myself like full size 1895 because I feel it much easier to shoot than the compact guide guns but that would be something for you to work out for yourself . |
| I have a 375 H&H. I bought it several years ago.I was thinking along the same lines of the original post.. sort of the last gun (That did not turn out to be the case once I discovered the evil black rifles). Any way, once I started shooting it, the 375 quickly replaced my 30-06 and 25-06, for big game. Any thing that you put in front of it DRT. The blood shot/bruising is no worse than the 30-06. One thing about the 375 H&H, if you are presented with the southend of a north running deer; You just take the shot, DRT. The 300 g Sierra GK that I shoot will go the long way through a deer and exit out the front end. |
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Just an " FYI " from a very respected " Guide ", living in " Alaska ! "
ACCURATE RELOADING QUOTE:" Posted 24 October 2009 09:36 Hide Post My point is that if one is hunting anywhere in Alsaka - either alone of with a guide - the 30-06 is all that is needed. Even for backup - for 50 years or longer the 30-06 was THE choice of the majority of Alaskan guides and if they had had the bullets we have today they would have thought they had the perfect rifle. That said, I do agree that there are better rifles for the purpose of following up dangerous game and in all honesty there were a few moments when I was alone in the thickest brush and could hear the bear maneuvering ahead of me that I would have felt better with my 458 as I knew that I might only get off one shot. but I also knew from experience that as long as I shot well the 30-06 with the 220 partitions would be all I needed. fortunately it was. Remind me again how I can upload my photo from photo bucket and I'll post a picture. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com " http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8521043/m/1701060911?r=3371004911#3371004911 PAPI |
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There is no such thing as a last rifle unless you count the one you bought just before you kicked the bucket.
I like what frozenny has said and the advice he gave is good. A lot of the others have given great advice as well. The only time you will feel the recoil is when you are at the range. But that said if you get beat up by the rifle you will end up putting it in the back of the gun safe/closet and there it will sit. Since you have said you will most likely not hunt the big bears but possibly hunt where they live you will most likely be hunting with a guide? If you hunt Alaska you will have to use a guide so If that is the case your guide will be carrying a rifle for back up. There are ways to deal with recoil. Since you are a reloader you can always use the minimum starting loads for general range time. You can install a limbsaver recoil pad to help absorb the recoil. P.A.S.T makes a recoil pad that you slip on over your shoulder that works well for absorbing recoil as well. I am not a fan of muzzle breaks on anything I own as they will destroy your hearing. When hunting you rarely use ear plugs and if you aren't wearing them when shooting a rifle with a muzzle break you will certainly suffer permenant hearing loss. I will put up with the recoil rather than going deaf. I have a Remington Model 7 in 350 Rem Mag and while it weighs in at 7 pounds I feel it has less felt recoil than the .300Win mag that I sold. The 300 was a heavier rifle and that is why I got rid of it. Packing a heavy rifle around the mountains gets old. The hardest recoiling rifle I think I have shot to date has to be my friends Win model 70 feather weight 30-06 with 220gr bullets. It just seemed to beat the hell out of my shoulder. I have shot some heavy kicking rifles but that one just sticks out in my mind for some reason. |
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Quoted:
I have a 375 H&H. I bought it several years ago.I was thinking along the same lines of the original post.. sort of the last gun (That did not turn out to be the case once I discovered the evil black rifles). Any way, once I started shooting it, the 375 quickly replaced my 30-06 and 25-06, for big game. Any thing that you put in front of it DRT. The blood shot/bruising is no worse than the 30-06. One thing about the 375 H&H, if you are presented with the southend of a north running deer; You just take the shot, DRT. The 300 g Sierra GK that I shoot will go the long way through a deer and exit out the front end. Yup, just what I wanted to say 
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