Posted: 7/19/2007 6:27:42 PM EDT
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Now, I am not a big hunter. Shot my share of geese, rabbits, squirrels, foxes, feral dogs and groundhogs, but that was always varmints, not sport hunting. This winter will be the first time I stick around at work for the off season - golf course greenskeeping. Our staff does a bit of hunting in the winter and my boss has told me he would like to see me get a deer this winter. The only problem for me is that the part of MD I live in does not allow rifle hunting, only muzzleloader, bow, and shotgun. I have zero interest in bows, and the only shotgun I own is an 870P riot gun. As many know, I'm not too big on shotguns, but I love rifles. I'm looking into a blackpowder muzzle loader and I am interested in the Hawken rifles. Are the Cabela's rifles any good? Thompson-Center? Which caliber - .50 or .54? Flintlock or percussion? Any other traditional muzzle loaders I should look at? |
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Those TCs are damned good guns, and if you're a really green novice, a very good place to start. The Cabela's stuff I've seen is of good quality, but TC's customer service is top notch. They completely rebuilt a flint gun for me (including re stocking") for next to nothing. As far as the authentic type of rifles go, likely the best overall production guns are those by Pedersoli. These also retain resale value well. Incidentally, the double bbld rifles offered by Cabelas are of their manufacture. I own one and it is of top notch quality. Stay away from the bargin basement, low cost, rifles unless you KNOW what your'e looking for and have someone with some experience to guide you. I'd suggest you check out Dixie arms site, Track of the Wolf, etc to get an overview. Good luck, you'll find black powder an addictive game! |
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I've got a TC Hawken in .45 cal and i love it. Shoots fast and is very accurate. I swapped out the rear sight for a Williams peep sight and filed the front sight bead smaller, so that improved it considerably. Any rifle can shoot accurately if you experiment with different load/projectiles, even patched balls. Different twist rates will dictate different bullets (of course). Also, a new barrel will have to be seasoned so get a rifle and shoot it a lot. And don't use any petroleum products for cleaning or lubrication. But i've gotta ask, Why don't you like shotguns? If your 870 has cylinder choke and good sights it should be pretty accurate (with the right slug choice). Easier, faster loading/cleaning/etc. No offense meant, I'm just saying. |
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I don't remember who makes the Cabela's rifles. I have heard good reviews and poor reviews on the Cabela's Hawkens. I hunt with a CVA St. Louis Hawken in percussion .50. I can consistantly hit the vitals area on a target with open sights at 75 yards with it leaning on my elbows. From kneeling I took a doe from 60 yards with it two seasons ago. I shoot 350 gr. Thompson Center Maxi Hunter miniballs over 90 grains of powder. I found the full 100gr. load is slightly less accurate. I suggest you work up a load in 5gr. intervals as well. A good name brand Hawken in .50 caliber is all anyone needs when it comes to deer hunting with a traditional muzzle loder. That being said, most Hawkens aren't really true traditional muzzle loaders in most cases. Like, mine has a modern adjustable rear sight(as most do). If you are looking for something you can hang over the door or mantle in the off season and look more traditonal then I would seriously look at the Traditions name brand of black powder rifles. Lyman also makes a nice traditional hunter(Great Plains Rifles) with a faster rate of twist so you can dependably use sabboted rounds. Since the Hawken is neither authentic or modern I am now craving something different. What I really want is a sporterized Hawken(because I do want to stay with open sights and sidelock ignition) that is even more modern...shoots 150 gr. magnum loads, composite stock, fiber optic sights, faster twist for saboted bullets, etc....(Thompson Center makes(made) one like this I want to try) AND I want a truely traditional looking flint lock, with a slower rate of twist that will accurately fire patched round ball or miniballs and looks good hanging on the wall. Hopefully this answers some questions. |
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With BP rifles, even the $69 CVAs with rough bores will still shoot well enough to knock down deer at 75 yards. Cabela's rifles are Spanish and Italian reproduction guns, and are fine. You may find better deals locally. With T/C, the fit, finish, and sights are greatly improved, and T/C stands behind their product like no one else in the BO industry. They are now owned by S&W. Stick with a name brand, and you really can't go wrong. If you are going to go sidelock, I'd recomend you go with percussion cap (No. 11 or Musket) ignition rather than flint for your first gun. Rifling 1/60 = patched round ball only, 1/48 conicals or balls, 1/24 sabots. Go .50 cal. It's easiest to find components. And anything a .45 or .54 can do, a .50 can do better. BP and commercially manufactured substitutes are corrosive, just like some surplus ammo. Use Windex or commercially available BP "solvent", which isn't solvent at all. You don't want to use petroleum based products in the bore of a BP rifle. It makes sludge. |
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TC Hawken percussion in either .50 or .54 caliber. The .54 would be better but the .50 is good enough for most game. The bigger caliber is better because a traditional muzzleloader uses a patched round ball, not a sabot like the modern blackpowder rifles. TC has outstanding customer service and makes top quality products. Jim |
A traditional Hawken usually is NOT intended for a patched round ball. Most Hawkens today have a 1 in 48" twist which is better for miniballs, which are fired with no patch. However, patched round balls can be shot from it with the understanding that you won't receive the same accuracy as you would from a patched round ball out of a 1 in 66" twist barrel. .50 is the better caliber for deer. |
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Mike's got it right! Folks rag on CVA, and rightly so, but I've had their Hawkens type, .50, 1 in 66", that I put together from a kit over 20 years ago, and it flat out shoots! 90gr 2F (Goex) under a patched round ball, holds tighter than I can! Have taken a LOT of deer with it over the years. That said, IF I was to shoot predominately round ball, I'd go .54. .50s are LIGHT,and that extra mass a .54 brings to the table DOES make a difference. Maybe go .50, with a 1 in 48" and use a heavier conical. Myself, my "go to" BP gun is a Knight Legend that I bought my wife in '93. We've taken probably 50+ deer with that , throwing a Knight 260, all lead with 90 gr Goex 2F. All but 2 03 3 were one shot, quick kills. It's a rare deer that goes more than 30 yds, IF we do our job! Being scoped helps a lot as well. I'm very comforatblewith that rig out to 125 or so, whereas I limit my shots with the Hawkens to 50. ( We mostly hunt THICK stuff, where that is often as far as you could possibly get a shot anyway). Unless you have your heart set on a more traditional style, I'd suggest a scoped inline. I actually use one for 90% of my deer hunting, even when I can use a centerfire! There are some mornings though, when i just HAVE to grab the Hawkens and prowl the creek bottoms. Whatever route you go, you'll probably wind up with BOTH, once BP gets in your blood! T/C, Lyman (Great Plains) both make nice guns. I'd also suggest a kit, as it will make you much more intimately involved with the whole process, plus, you'll have a real feeling of pride and accomplishment when the smoke clears and that first deer is DOWN! Good luck in whatever you choose,Dave |
Congrats on getting into BP. When I started I wanted one caliber only. Well I ended up with .32 - .62. It all depends on how much you can spend. When I started I bought the Lyman Great Plains Rifle. I love the balance of it and it's dead on. I have owned TC, CVA, Deer Creek and Traditions. They all do the job but nothing beats a good quality lock and trigger. Good luck on your new hobbie. |
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only 2 worth a cats ass. T/C and lyman. both are quality guns. .50 cals due to the fact you can get balls anywhere. shoot loose 777, pioneer powder or goex. i personally feel that the renegade and T/C hawken are the best production guns out there. even better, buy a kit and put it together yourself. |
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Listen to the excellent advice frm all hands posted. Remember if you're shooting BP to run a spit patch after four or five shots or the ball may hane up in the barrel due to carbon buildup. That's no fun. You don't have to spend a thousand bucks on acessories either. Get the acessories that will go on the end of the ramrod to pull stuck balls, retrieve lost down the barrel patches and etc. A product called "bore butter" that smells like chest rub for colds is great to season your barrel and protection of same. Clean with HOT soapy water, bore cleaner and/or CLP type solvents won't cut the crud. 
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I have a TC Renegade in perc cap and love it. I have a Pedersolli long rifle in flint lock and it is a lot of fun also. It has put down a few deer. It takes a shot or two to get used to the powder flash.... but it is actually faster to reload than the perc cap if you are in a hurry. TC makes a quality product as does Lyman. CVA is an OK working mans firearm.... it will get the job done, but the quality is lacking. I strongly dislike Knights... but that is a personal opinion as many I know like them and have good results. By "traditional" do you mean flintlock? perc cap? or just muzzleloader in general? There is a company in northern Vt thaks called MDM (I think thats the initials) that makes a good break open inline muzzleloader that uses 209 shotgun primers. THe TC Omega or Encore are also great rifles... just like shooting a modern rifle. THe big key to not having misfires in cleaning and preping before loading. Clean the hell out of your rifle after every shooting session and fire a primer to blow any grease or oil or fuzz out of the nipple before loading it for hunting. I still prefer loose powder over pellets and use Triple Seven except I use FFF blackpoder in the flintlock. |
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for accuracy issues in a 1:48 twist gun. its a simple fix. reduce your charge. i have a renegade that will drive tacks with a charge of 60-75 grains of GOEX and a pillow ticked patch round ball. even the reduced charge of 60 grains will give you complete pass thru's out to 70 yards or so on a whitetail. atleast mine all have. i shot a 10 pt years ago with a 30 gr charge at 40 yards that was a complete pass thru on both shoulders. the gold standard of charge BITD was 10 gr per 10 yards of needed power. i will tell you this.. once you get good with a muzzleloader, it can be addicting. i enjoy it so much i use a BP rifle sometimes during rifle season. i have dozens of legal deer rifles but..i end up taking a 1840ish bp rifle .. i guess its cause i made it..from a kit. |
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My CVA .50 Hawken shoots well with round ball and minies. I like it because it's one of the few lefties I've ever seen. If you want to get something really nice, go to the annual meet at Friendship, IN in June. There are guys there who build custom jobs that are AMAZING!! |
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I have a Flint Lyman .50 Great Plains Rifle for deer hunting in PA. Cabela's are ok. T/C's are nice, very nice. Lyman's are good. Flint or Cap? That is up to you. Flint is 'more' correct, but a caplock is a bit easier to work with, and many, many flintlocks were converted over to caplock ignition in the mid-19th century. Check with your regs to see if it is Blackpowder or Primitive that you have to use. IMHO, if you are allowed to, use caplock. .50 or .54? Again up to you. Either will do the job on a deer with a roundball, but .50 roundballs are a bit easier to find, at least they are here is SE PA. Then again this might have something to do with our 'primitive' deer season, eh? Green Mountain Barrels offer their Interchangable Barrel System for T/C rifles. That way, in true ARFCOM fashion, you can have both!! |
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For traditionally styled percussion,I'm a T/C fan. Note that they're not completely accurate reproductions, but they are well fitted and well finished,far exceeding the quality on the CVAs and Lymans that I've owned and handled. My only complaint was difficulty in getting my T/C to shoot minies and maxiballs accurately at any sort of speed with their 1-48 twist barrels. They're great with roundball though. For traditionally styled flint, I use a Lyman Great Plains Rifle. I bought it on recommendation,but got a bum barrel with it. Lyman responded quickly and gave me a new barrel. It's not the best fit and finished weapon,but it's a pretty reliable shooter,is pretty authentic as an iron fitted,half stocked plains rifle,and it is quite accurate. Definitely go .50. It's far easier to find accessories. |