Posted: 4/11/2009 9:28:00 AM EDT
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Along with shelter, I am working on getting water filteration.
I am looking at the Katadyn Pocket for my pack. Katadyn Pocket and the Sawyer® Point02™ Viral Filter with Bucket Adapter Kit for the house and vehicle. Sawyer® Point02™ Viral Filter with Bucket Adapter Kit or, should I just get the kadadyn pocket and leave it at that. What say ye, and do you have other advice? Thank you, StagPower |
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The pocket is too slow and heavy... just get a Hiker and you get water that tastes good (carbon element), less money, less weight, more convenience, etc. That is if you are looking for a filter for on the go. If you want a base camp filter a gravity filter is going to be far easier than a slow pumping Pocket.
The backwashing is needed every 2 gallons on the filter you have selected... same element as the MSR Hyperflow but since you can just flip water sources if you have a sealed output containter its easy to do. Still you will need back up filters becasue that type of filter wont clean well once dirty or used up. It will also clog quickly if you dont have pretty clean water to start. |
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Thank you for the reply.
I am looking also at what it filters out and the amount of water it can process. I want something that is going to clean the water good, and taste good is nice also. The MSR is 1/3 the weight, but is only good for 1000 gallons vs 13000 gallons. The hicker does not give the amount that the filter is good for. The MSR and the Hiker are both less expensive and wow the MSR does have a great water flow, even a shower connection. It does not tell me what it will filter out. The filters are less expensive also. Also remember I will have 1-7 persons minimum. StagPower Quoted:
The pocket is too slow and heavy... just get a Hiker and you get water that tastes good (carbon element), less money, less weight, more convenience, etc. That is if you are looking for a filter for on the go. If you want a base camp filter a gravity filter is going to be far easier than a slow pumping Pocket. The backwashing is needed every 2 gallons on the filter you have selected... same element as the MSR Hyperflow but since you can just flip water sources if you have a sealed output containter its easy to do. Still you will need back up filters becasue that type of filter wont clean well once dirty or used up. It will also clog quickly if you dont have pretty clean water to start. |
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A couple of things to remember when selecting a filter.
0.1 absolute will take care of all bacteria 0.02 absolute will take care of all bacteria and viruses but you sacrifice flow rate The type of filter media is pretty important too, are you going to have to change/clean the filter often? Cartridges get real expensive real fast. The basics are weight vs size vs filtration rate vs filter power vs durability vs cost The other consideration is chemical filtration and what you filter can or cannot do. Personally I started with a Katadyn Hiker Pro 0.3 micron absolute. The filter size was not good enough for me and I did not like the rate of cartridge changing but I did like the weight and speed of the pump. I cut out a cartridge and instead filled the damn thing with activated charcoal to take out any chemicals and then hooked up my sawyer 0.1 micron absolute for mechanical filtration. I gained the best of all/most worlds. Lightweight, heavy duty chem filtration, excellent mechanical filtration (I don't see viruses as much of a threat), 1,000,000 gallon lifespan, fast flow rate (1 liter a minute, about 40-50 strokes). If I want I can hook the sawyer to a bucket and gravity feed. My filter setup Remember to get the MSR prefilter, it saves you loads in cleaning in the long run. |
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Thanks for the reply.
Actually I remember when you posted that thread and thought that it was good but then forgot about it. But it must have stuck because I have been thinking along the same lines. I am almost tempted to do the pre-filter first, then the charcoal, and then a .02 sawyer on the way out to the storage unit. or also add a .02 between the silt filter and the charcoal. Oh also, what is the shelf life of the activated charcoal before use? Any other thoughts? StagPower Quoted:
A couple of things to remember when selecting a filter. 0.1 absolute will take care of all bacteria 0.02 absolute will take care of all bacteria and viruses but you sacrifice flow rate The type of filter media is pretty important too, are you going to have to change/clean the filter often? Cartridges get real expensive real fast. The basics are weight vs size vs filtration rate vs filter power vs durability vs cost The other consideration is chemical filtration and what you filter can or cannot do. Personally I started with a Katadyn Hiker Pro 0.3 micron absolute. The filter size was not good enough for me and I did not like the rate of cartridge changing but I did like the weight and speed of the pump. I cut out a cartridge and instead filled the damn thing with activated charcoal to take out any chemicals and then hooked up my sawyer 0.1 micron absolute for mechanical filtration. I gained the best of all/most worlds. Lightweight, heavy duty chem filtration, excellent mechanical filtration (I don't see viruses as much of a threat), 1,000,000 gallon lifespan, fast flow rate (1 liter a minute, about 40-50 strokes). If I want I can hook the sawyer to a bucket and gravity feed. My filter setup Remember to get the MSR prefilter, it saves you loads in cleaning in the long run. |
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Quoted:
Thanks for the reply. Actually I remember when you posted that thread and thought that it was good but then forgot about it. But it must have stuck because I have been thinking along the same lines. I am almost tempted to do the pre-filter first, then the charcoal, and then a .02 sawyer on the way out to the storage unit. or also add a .02 between the silt filter and the charcoal. Oh also, what is the shelf life of the activated charcoal before use? Any other thoughts? StagPower Activated charcoal has a nearly indefinate shelf life. Think super charcoal. In fact it really is only charcoal that has been treated to be extremely porous. I would mechanically filter before the charcoal. The charcoal can quickly become clogged and jammed with organic crap that will inhibit its ability to grab onto the chemicals. Personally I wouldn't bother with the bucket, I would just buy the filter by itself. What I do when camping is I take the lines off the pump and keep it hooked to the sawyer and throw the dirty end into the dirty water bucket. I then prime the line and just lower the line and connect it to my nalgene bottle, when I am done I just bring the line back up to or above the water line in the bucket by hanging it off the side of the bucket. Once the line is first primed it will not have to be reprimed until you take the line totally out of the bucket. It is much easier I find then putting a spout on a bucket and buying the whole big contraption. |
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I have read charcoal is only good for 6 months once used and wet... true? Well I have never heard or read that. I know for example in the Dakotas where they use RO systems with activated carbon filters to remove heavy amounts of arsenic they change out their activated carbon only once a year. Changing out the AC about once a year is what I commonly hear. |
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Everyone,
Do you then recommend doing exactly what MrHunter here has done, or simply putting a Sawyer .02M filter on this flter? http://www.moontrail.com/hydration/miniworks.html I am going to make a final decision here today or tomorrow, and then order. Thank you all for your input. StagPower Quoted:
A couple of things to remember when selecting a filter. 0.1 absolute will take care of all bacteria 0.02 absolute will take care of all bacteria and viruses but you sacrifice flow rate The type of filter media is pretty important too, are you going to have to change/clean the filter often? Cartridges get real expensive real fast. The basics are weight vs size vs filtration rate vs filter power vs durability vs cost The other consideration is chemical filtration and what you filter can or cannot do. Personally I started with a Katadyn Hiker Pro 0.3 micron absolute. The filter size was not good enough for me and I did not like the rate of cartridge changing but I did like the weight and speed of the pump. I cut out a cartridge and instead filled the damn thing with activated charcoal to take out any chemicals and then hooked up my sawyer 0.1 micron absolute for mechanical filtration. I gained the best of all/most worlds. Lightweight, heavy duty chem filtration, excellent mechanical filtration (I don't see viruses as much of a threat), 1,000,000 gallon lifespan, fast flow rate (1 liter a minute, about 40-50 strokes). If I want I can hook the sawyer to a bucket and gravity feed. My filter setup Remember to get the MSR prefilter, it saves you loads in cleaning in the long run. |
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Well if you are going to keep the carbon fresh that means annual cartridge changes. Will you use the travel filter for more than 200 gallons a year? If not you wont get extra life out of the Miniworks as you will change filters annually. The Hiker pumps faster, weighs less, and costs less. The field cleaning is a simple removal of filter and swish in water vs sanding the surface of the ceramic. The Miniworks will also require more frequent cleanings.
I was all ready to buy the Miniworks till I started talking to people who owned them and had them fracture from not purging completely and water freezing inside, breaking while cleaning with the scrubby pad, breaking from very short drops, etc. I just could net see where there was a real advantage once I looked at it objectively other than I like that the Nalgene screws onto the bottom of the Miniworks and the style of pumping action... oh and it looks cooler IMO. Not a great reason to buy a water filter IMO. There is a reason the Hiker is the #1 selling filter in America. Im going to go against the grain and try a Steripen for viruses. I will proabably regret this. We will see. |
| I have a Katadyn Pocket and love it.. weighs a tiny bit more than other similar filters, but the amount of water you can pump through a single cartridge completely dwarfs anything comparable on the market. It's bombproof, reliable, and i've filtered some nice water out of completely disgusting puddles. |
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The Pocket has alot of Pros but alot of Cons too.
For one thing I am pretty sure it is the heaviest filter on the market although it does gain unmatched durability. The other issue is its ceramic filter, I cannot find anywhere that says if its claimed 0.2 Micron filtration is absolute or optimal. Both measures of filtration value are nearly as common in their usage. The difference in absolute and optimal is nearly self explanatory. Optimal filtration requires a specific psi, a specific temperature, a specific amount of cartridge wear and tear, and a specific water quality ppm in order to reach the level that is described. As can be expected most of the time we cannot offer those needed conditions so what we think we are filtering is not the case. One major issue with ceramics is that it is nearly impossible to make the media uniform, which is what is needed to ensure there are no gaps for the buggies to get through. Absolute filtering means exactly that. This ____ # is the absolute maximum particle size that will be allowed through the media. The other issue is even if your filter is in good condition the activated carbon hiding inside should be changed once a year with heavy use. Those filter cartridges get VERY expesive over time. I guess it comes down to what qualities everyone wants with their filter. Weight Cost Filtration ability (0.02, 0.1, 0.2, 0.3) absolute or optimal Size Durability Speed of pumping Cleanable Cartridge life/Cost |
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+1 Great filter Quoted: I have a Katadyn Pocket and love it.. weighs a tiny bit more than other similar filters, but the amount of water you can pump through a single cartridge completely dwarfs anything comparable on the market. It's bombproof, reliable, and i've filtered some nice water out of completely disgusting puddles. |
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Quoted:
I have a Katadyn Pocket and love it.. weighs a tiny bit more than other similar filters, but the amount of water you can pump through a single cartridge completely dwarfs anything comparable on the market. It's bombproof, reliable, and i've filtered some nice water out of completely disgusting puddles. this!!!!!!!!!! |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I have a Katadyn Pocket and love it.. weighs a tiny bit more than other similar filters, but the amount of water you can pump through a single cartridge completely dwarfs anything comparable on the market. It's bombproof, reliable, and i've filtered some nice water out of completely disgusting puddles. this!!!!!!!!!! I don't see why so manhy people love it. Can someone explain the love of this filter? Yes it is made of metal and is heavy and substantial but so what... It is expensive, HEAVY, big, and only filters at 0.2 Microns with a ceramic filter cartridge..... Where are the advantages? |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I have a Katadyn Pocket and love it.. weighs a tiny bit more than other similar filters, but the amount of water you can pump through a single cartridge completely dwarfs anything comparable on the market. It's bombproof, reliable, and i've filtered some nice water out of completely disgusting puddles. this!!!!!!!!!! I don't see why so manhy people love it. Can someone explain the love of this filter? Yes it is made of metal and is heavy and substantial but so what... It is expensive, HEAVY, big, and only filters at 0.2 Microns with a ceramic filter cartridge..... Where are the advantages? It's a bit more expensive, but when you take into account the life of the filter, it's really not much more. Heavy? Come on. It weighs 1lb 3 oz. It's not featherweight, but if a pound is heavy for you.... well, enough said. In comparison, its closest competitor weighs 14.6oz. 4oz difference. A ceramic cartridge for the Miniworks nets you 2,000 liters, per their own documentation. The Pocket? 50,000 liters. That's right. A Pocket cartridge can filter 13,000 GALLONS of water before it needs changed. Like I said.. it completely decimates any other handheld filter on the market. I have a relative that hikes hundreds of miles a year, and has been using the same cartridge in his pocket for well over a decade, and still has a long way to go. The Pocket is the filter you buy if you don't want cheap plastic parts, having to replace filters, and want pure reliability. I think the extra 4oz is more than worth it. The Pocket is also proven.. it's been used all over the world, by our own military even, producing clean, safe water from some of the nastiest water on the planet. I know you use the Sawyer setup, but I'm still hesitant about that. A filter claming to filter a million gallons is so infinitely beyond everything else that it honestly seems more like advertising to me than anything else. Sawyer makes cheap camping products..you don't find it odd that out of nowhere, they produce a filter that's more capable than anything on the market, by leaps and bounds? I'm not calling it outright false, but i'm doubtful and hesitant. From what i've heard various places online, those inline filters from sawyer have been found to have a bunch of broken nanotubes straight out of the box. That doesn't bode well for durability in the long run. |
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Well looking at the tubes I am not surprised they claim 1,000,000 gallons.
I have played with the Hemodialysis filters at work and they use the same EXACT material in my Sawyer. Actually pissed me off I wasn't smart enough to come up with that idea... I don't think anyone plans on using the filter for 1 million gallons, I just think that they are trying to say that the filter does not degrade overtime with use like other materials used in filters. Fiberglass weaves can unweave, holes and cracks can wear on ceramic filter cartridges. Hell at $50 I replace my Sawyer every year since I use it so much when I replace my activated carbon, not because I have to but because at $50 I can. Another thing to consider is the ability to gravity feed. If you are setup at a basecamp or at home then gravity feeding your water can be a huge advantage. Having to hand pump all of your water can become rather taxing over time... Military Times BTW for anyone who didn't see there is now another similar thread on the main Survival forum where the age old fight of Pocket vs Sawyer is being hashed out. lol |
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Couple of points.
The Katadyn ceramic filters are impregnated with silver to eliminate microbial growth on the filter itself. That is a primary reason for their long life. Without that silver, they would eventually become microbe farms. That said, they are breakable, and subject to cracking if wet and subjected to freezing temps. Solution: Get a small-sized version, and keep it inside your jacket/sleeping bag. Tape some foam around the thing in case you drop it. Have a spare filter element, just in case. Whatever filter you have, it will not hurt to run a mild bleach solution through it every now and then, especially if the ctg is an old one. Almost every filter made still needs chem treatment for complete safety, and the Katadyn tabs do the job Boiling water for the right duration works every time, if circumstances and time permit. Pre-filters are your friend. Buy 'em pre-made or make your own from coffee filters placed inside green scotch-brite pads. If the pre-filter is NOT a throw-away item, bleach it every now and then to retard microbial build-up. |
| I use the MSR sweetwater for my pack. The entire rig with bleach solution vial and bag weighs in at 16oz. I've back country and canoe camped with it for up to five days, it's fast enough, efficient enough, and light enough. It produces well and is more than worth it's weight. For two people it would suffice for home use, filtering for a familyl may be better suited to a larger rig. |