Posted: 7/20/2014 6:42:51 PM EDT
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The TSHTF is a process and not an event, and is currently happening.
Regardless, the thing I realized recently, while TSHTF can be defined when the System, in its present form, stops functioning *for you*. You can longer afford housing (rent, or the mortgage), and no way to get food. Or transportation. How you get there is irrelevant. Millions are already in the "failure" mode. You need a new system to replace the failed system. It's not enough to store a boatload of stuff in the basement, you need something else. The ability to barter your skills, perhaps with a new currency. The FRN is a walking corpse and it's just the matter of time before you go shopping and a drink costs $10,000. You need trade partners. what you really need is a new System, new laws, new government, new everything. Only few will be able to survive, alone in the mountains and even for them it's not a sustainable effort long-term. What happens if you need medical care? How can you store that? Will anyone trade you 10,000 chicken eggs for eye surgery? Maybe we will go back to an agriculture-based society post-TSHTF. |
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Well, fortunately we're Americans and freedom of association is what we do, it's what economies are made of. People exchange goods for services in a free exchange and you've got 'economics' and eventually you've also got a common good the two parties have vested interest in sustaining and maintaining.
That this is all being undermined by marxists is of course both obvious and to be expected - the whole trick is to make people lazy by claiming to do things for them so their habits of liberty and free will exchange atrophies and dies - so we'll become inert, let go our sense of personal initiative, personal responsibility etc. and just wait to be told what to do. The System is not top down. It's bottom up. You want to know what 'system' was in place in the colonies in 1700? A few really basic laws, a handful of forts by the sea, and a whole lot of locals doing business with each other, with indians, trappers etc. and figuring things out as best they could on an ad hoc basis and it worked! They didn't need a small army of regulators, bureaucrats, soldiers, etc. to maintain "the system". They were the system. Read up on De Tocqueville's Democracy in America to see what things were like in 1835 and then look around. Let's suppose aliens beamed up all non-military members of the federal, state and local governments tonight. You think the USA would cease to exist? We'd have the longest sustained economic boom in human history! We're reconstitute some semblance of government within 2 weeks and probably fight over how much of the past to let go of and how much to keep. The real story of Hurricane Katrina was not how bad FEMA and Bush dropped the ball, but how historically unprecedented it was for tens of thousands of civilians to spontaneously conduct search and rescue operations, spontaneously set up command centers, spontaneously begin hauling relief aid, running security patrols, etc. members on this site did incredible work down there on their own dime and own 'authority'. No one ordered them to go or paid them to go, they went on their own. Most of us are not savages who need "the Man" watching us to behave. So in the absence of government we won't devolve into savages. |
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Quoted:
<snip> The real story of Hurricane Katrina was not how bad FEMA and Bush dropped the ball, but how historically unprecedented it was for tens of thousands of civilians to spontaneously conduct search and rescue operations, spontaneously set up command centers, spontaneously begin hauling relief aid, running security patrols, etc. members on this site did incredible work down there on their own dime and own 'authority'. No one ordered them to go or paid them to go, they went on their own. Quoted:
<snip> The real story of Hurricane Katrina was not how bad FEMA and Bush dropped the ball, but how historically unprecedented it was for tens of thousands of civilians to spontaneously conduct search and rescue operations, spontaneously set up command centers, spontaneously begin hauling relief aid, running security patrols, etc. members on this site did incredible work down there on their own dime and own 'authority'. No one ordered them to go or paid them to go, they went on their own. I am really surprised how many people buy into the narrative that FEMA and Bush somehow messed up in Katrina. Look at the FEMA website. They are a support agency. - All the things you list, are things FEMA helps provide training and guidelines for, they do not actually do them. They primarily provide money, loans, grants, etc. They help with housing, remember all those trailers they provided? and they set guidelines to help train (beforehand) Community Emergency Response Teams (CERT) - who are the people that do all the things you listed. From their website: Immediate Needs
If you have immediate needs for food, water or shelter, you may contact the American Red Cross at 1-800-REDCROSS (1-800-733-2767) or the United Way by dialing 2-1-1 from a landline phone. Please see the following site for additional information: http://www.211us.org/status.htm Disaster Recovery Center - a location where you can speak with someone from FEMA in person for information about FEMA assistance and other disaster assistance programs. Where applicable, find a hotel that is participating in FEMA’s Transitional Sheltering Assistance (TSA) Program. FEMA Housing Portal to find rental housing. Find family members with the FEMA National Emergency Registry and Locator System (only activated during major disasters) or with the Red Cross Safe & Well Listings. |
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Quoted: I am really surprised how many people buy into the narrative that FEMA and Bush somehow messed up in Katrina. Look at the FEMA website. They are a support agency. - All the things you list, are things FEMA provides training for, they do not actually do them. They primarily provide money, loans, grants, etc. They help with housing, remember all those trailers they provided? From their website: Quoted: Quoted: <snip> The real story of Hurricane Katrina was not how bad FEMA and Bush dropped the ball, but how historically unprecedented it was for tens of thousands of civilians to spontaneously conduct search and rescue operations, spontaneously set up command centers, spontaneously begin hauling relief aid, running security patrols, etc. members on this site did incredible work down there on their own dime and own 'authority'. No one ordered them to go or paid them to go, they went on their own. I am really surprised how many people buy into the narrative that FEMA and Bush somehow messed up in Katrina. Look at the FEMA website. They are a support agency. - All the things you list, are things FEMA provides training for, they do not actually do them. They primarily provide money, loans, grants, etc. They help with housing, remember all those trailers they provided? From their website: Immediate Needs If you have immediate needs for food, water or shelter, you may contact the American Red Cross at 1-800-REDCROSS (1-800-733-2767) or the United Way by dialing 2-1-1 from a landline phone. Please see the following site for additional information: http://www.211us.org/status.htm Disaster Recovery Center - a location where you can speak with someone from FEMA in person for information about FEMA assistance and other disaster assistance programs. Where applicable, find a hotel that is participating in FEMA’s Transitional Sheltering Assistance (TSA) Program. FEMA Housing Portal to find rental housing. Find family members with the FEMA National Emergency Registry and Locator System (only activated during major disasters) or with the Red Cross Safe & Well Listings. Door to Door illegal confiscation of weapons by "just following orders" Guard troops ordered by a sleeze bag politician was the epic fail.
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Quoted:
Agreed. Door to Door illegal confiscation of weapons by "just following orders" Guard troops ordered by a sleeze bag politician was the epic fail. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
<snip> The real story of Hurricane Katrina was not how bad FEMA and Bush dropped the ball, but how historically unprecedented it was for tens of thousands of civilians to spontaneously conduct search and rescue operations, spontaneously set up command centers, spontaneously begin hauling relief aid, running security patrols, etc. members on this site did incredible work down there on their own dime and own 'authority'. No one ordered them to go or paid them to go, they went on their own. I am really surprised how many people buy into the narrative that FEMA and Bush somehow messed up in Katrina. Look at the FEMA website. They are a support agency. - All the things you list, are things FEMA provides training for, they do not actually do them. They primarily provide money, loans, grants, etc. They help with housing, remember all those trailers they provided? From their website: Immediate Needs
If you have immediate needs for food, water or shelter, you may contact the American Red Cross at 1-800-REDCROSS (1-800-733-2767) or the United Way by dialing 2-1-1 from a landline phone. Please see the following site for additional information: http://www.211us.org/status.htm Disaster Recovery Center - a location where you can speak with someone from FEMA in person for information about FEMA assistance and other disaster assistance programs. Where applicable, find a hotel that is participating in FEMA’s Transitional Sheltering Assistance (TSA) Program. FEMA Housing Portal to find rental housing. Find family members with the FEMA National Emergency Registry and Locator System (only activated during major disasters) or with the Red Cross Safe & Well Listings. Door to Door illegal confiscation of weapons by "just following orders" Guard troops ordered by a sleeze bag politician was the epic fail. I'm not at all trying to be argumentative, I'd just love to know which politician it was that ordered the illegal confiscation of guns. Even though I voted for him 2x, Bush is on my $hit list for the patriot act. |
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Quoted:
Well, fortunately we're Americans and freedom of association is what we do, it's what economies are made of. People exchange goods for services in a free exchange and you've got 'economics' and eventually you've also got a common good the two parties have vested interest in sustaining and maintaining. That this is all being undermined by marxists is of course both obvious and to be expected - the whole trick is to make people lazy by claiming to do things for them so their habits of liberty and free will exchange atrophies and dies - so we'll become inert, let go our sense of personal initiative, personal responsibility etc. and just wait to be told what to do. The System is not top down. It's bottom up. You want to know what 'system' was in place in the colonies in 1700? A few really basic laws, a handful of forts by the sea, and a whole lot of locals doing business with each other, with indians, trappers etc. and figuring things out as best they could on an ad hoc basis and it worked! They didn't need a small army of regulators, bureaucrats, soldiers, etc. to maintain "the system". They were the system. Read up on De Tocqueville's Democracy in America to see what things were like in 1835 and then look around. Let's suppose aliens beamed up all non-military members of the federal, state and local governments tonight. You think the USA would cease to exist? We'd have the longest sustained economic boom in human history! We're reconstitute some semblance of government within 2 weeks and probably fight over how much of the past to let go of and how much to keep. The real story of Hurricane Katrina was not how bad FEMA and Bush dropped the ball, but how historically unprecedented it was for tens of thousands of civilians to spontaneously conduct search and rescue operations, spontaneously set up command centers, spontaneously begin hauling relief aid, running security patrols, etc. members on this site did incredible work down there on their own dime and own 'authority'. No one ordered them to go or paid them to go, they went on their own. Most of us are not savages who need "the Man" watching us to behave. So in the absence of government we won't devolve into savages. Quoted:
Well, fortunately we're Americans and freedom of association is what we do, it's what economies are made of. People exchange goods for services in a free exchange and you've got 'economics' and eventually you've also got a common good the two parties have vested interest in sustaining and maintaining. That this is all being undermined by marxists is of course both obvious and to be expected - the whole trick is to make people lazy by claiming to do things for them so their habits of liberty and free will exchange atrophies and dies - so we'll become inert, let go our sense of personal initiative, personal responsibility etc. and just wait to be told what to do. The System is not top down. It's bottom up. You want to know what 'system' was in place in the colonies in 1700? A few really basic laws, a handful of forts by the sea, and a whole lot of locals doing business with each other, with indians, trappers etc. and figuring things out as best they could on an ad hoc basis and it worked! They didn't need a small army of regulators, bureaucrats, soldiers, etc. to maintain "the system". They were the system. Read up on De Tocqueville's Democracy in America to see what things were like in 1835 and then look around. Let's suppose aliens beamed up all non-military members of the federal, state and local governments tonight. You think the USA would cease to exist? We'd have the longest sustained economic boom in human history! We're reconstitute some semblance of government within 2 weeks and probably fight over how much of the past to let go of and how much to keep. The real story of Hurricane Katrina was not how bad FEMA and Bush dropped the ball, but how historically unprecedented it was for tens of thousands of civilians to spontaneously conduct search and rescue operations, spontaneously set up command centers, spontaneously begin hauling relief aid, running security patrols, etc. members on this site did incredible work down there on their own dime and own 'authority'. No one ordered them to go or paid them to go, they went on their own. Most of us are not savages who need "the Man" watching us to behave. So in the absence of government we won't devolve into savages. Agree with 99% of what you wrote. So in the absence of government we won't devolve into savages It's not the "we" that I'm concerned with, it's the other folks. Will THEY devolve into savages? Without a doubt in my mind. And my planning is based on that. If for some chance everyone sits around defying human nature singing kumbaya, sharing everything and growing "community gardens", then I'll still be good. Yet we see evidence daily that this will not happen. The polyannas (not saying you are) will ignore that and continue to base their "plans" on BS ideas like "arming my subdivision" and related non sense they read in some BS fiction story. |
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Quoted: I'm not at all trying to be argumentative, I'd just love to know which politician it was that ordered the illegal confiscation of guns. Even though I voted for him 2x, Bush is on my $hit list for the patriot act. Quoted: Quoted: Agreed. Door to Door illegal confiscation of weapons by "just following orders" Guard troops ordered by a sleeze bag politician was the epic fail. I'm not at all trying to be argumentative, I'd just love to know which politician it was that ordered the illegal confiscation of guns. Even though I voted for him 2x, Bush is on my $hit list for the patriot act. Totally agree with the "patriot" act BS.
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Quoted:
At the orders of New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin, the New Orleans Police, the National Guard, the Oklahoma National Guard, and U.S. Marshals have begun breaking into homes at gunpoint, confiscating their lawfully-owned firearms, and evicting the residents. "No one is allowed to be armed. We're going to take all the guns," says P. Edwin Compass III, the superintendent of police. Totally agree with the "patriot" act BS. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Agreed. Door to Door illegal confiscation of weapons by "just following orders" Guard troops ordered by a sleeze bag politician was the epic fail. I'm not at all trying to be argumentative, I'd just love to know which politician it was that ordered the illegal confiscation of guns. Even though I voted for him 2x, Bush is on my $hit list for the patriot act. Totally agree with the "patriot" act BS. I am not trying to be argumentative either, just pointing out that it's not really the job of the federal government to come to the rescue after a disaster. Bush did plenty of things that he should take the blame for, but the Katrina aftermath is simply not one of them. He was just a convenient excuse to deflect the blame from the real criminals. ETA: and real the "epic fail" of Katrina was herding people into the superdome and then leaving them there. where, I believe, some of them DID devolve into savages. |
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No one is innocent on the debacle that was Katrina. Blanco, Nagen failed to do a whole bunch of things like use school busses to
get people OUT of the wards...of course the morons with no water/food/genny's etc who sat on their fat asses thinking they'd do ok with a direct hit from a cat 5 hurricane are mostly to blame..I know Nawlins a bit, I know distances and timing for getting in and around the city. WERE I stuck there knowing what may be happening and had no means to truly prep and ride it out? I'd have limped my decrypted old ass over the bridges to Slidell and other points north and or west in a damn hurry....  but I ain't ready to die yet...my Parents (88 and 90) rode it out 80 mi due north of New Orleans and survived.
the lost nearly everything but,,they survived for 4 days until we were able to get in and get them out as they knew what was coming and planned for it. Proving planning for disaster be it financial due to illness or job loss, knowing the cars going to break or the kids are going to get sick makes life in general flow much happier in the long run.. Chef. |
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"You Need a System to Replace a System"
Oh- You're gonna get one... 
New 'System' |
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Think of all the things Americans are currently doing the replace the system:
1) food: square gardens, chickens, goats, community co-ops, local farms 2) shelter: think of all the habitat for humanity projects - sure, it's small beans but hundreds of thousands of folk have practical experience in the rudiments of housing who otherwise wouldn't have had it. 3) water: from cisterns to catchment buckets to water purifiers and filters galore even though most tap water is safe to drink. 4) solar, wind, micro-hydro, etc. 5) education: well over 3 million kids are homeschooled K-post grad. That's more than are in Catholic schools. 6) ICF and other new construction techniques for energy efficiency that are fireproof - thus less and less need for fire departments 7) armed civilians - less and less utterly helpless civilians utterly in need for the NG or police to patrol places after a disaster... Think of what keeps alot of Texans from takin care of business right now is the fact that if they did they'd be arrested by the Feds. It's dependence on a higher system that keeps a genuine local system from taking off. |
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I'm in a quoting mood.
"A new, strange, unexpected face of things appeared. Anarchy is found tolerable. A vast province has now subsisted, and subsisted in a considerable degree of health and vigour, for near a twelvemonth, without governor, without public council, without judges, without executive magistrates. How long it will continue in this state, or what may arise out of this unheard-of situation, how can the wisest of us conjecture? Our late experience has taught us that many of those fundamental principles, formerly believed infallible, are either not of the importance they were imagined to be; or that we have not at all adverted to some other far more important and far more powerful principles, which entirely overrule those we had considered as omnipotent." - Excerpt from Edmund Burke's "Speech on Conciliation with the Colonies", 22 Mar. 1775 They were shocked that the colonials in Massachusetts said, "Oh, fuck you. We don't need your rules or officials..." - and they did just fine without any "official" government. Mister Burke observed that perhaps 'the system" wasn't all that after all and the it just might be possible, hard as it is to believe, that anarchy has more to do with self-governance than it does chaos. |