[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Retirement plans (Page 1 of 7)
Posted: 4/11/2013 5:59:51 PM EDT
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I've done as much as I can to diversify our savings. However, something that scares the unholy shit out of me is our retirement plans. Mine is a complete joke! There is no way in hell it'll allow us to survive more than 3-5 years after working for 20-30. Plus by the time we're of retirement age there won't be a social security check to figure in to the mix.
Now as I said we have other things of value. But if needing to survive on just our plans, there's no way it'd happen. Anyone else in the same boat? What are you thoughts on the issue? Thanks -Emt1581 |
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Quoted:
Invest in a discreet, well secured vault. Buy physical gold. PHYSICAL. It might not make you much inflated paper return, but it will sure as hell let you preserve todays earning for tomorrows needs. ETA: OPSEC, OPSEC, OPSEC Well, if you can afford to put away a LOT of value, sure...I guess 
Unless you believe hyper-inflation and no return on investments is in the near future, PMs shouldn't make up the bulk of your investments. They are a hedge against a poor economy, not a way to make money for retirement. |
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OP, I have some more scary words for you:
Means Tested Social Security. Oh you have money in your retirement account? We will thus reduce your SS benefits 50% until this has been depleted. After all it's not fair you have this account and everyone else doesn't. You must be a 1%er. While I worry about inflation killing my retirement, I worry more about the FSA somehow getting their hands on it. |
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How old are you?
I'm not the most qualified retirement advisor. However, in my opinion anyone who relies on one retirement plan is a fool. I would diversify my investments as much as possible. Build up any retirement accounts that you can. Get your house paid off and don't live in a mansion in retirement. You haven't given us enough to make decent advice. I will have 3 different retirement plans not counting social security. If I get something from SS it'll just be a bonus. I won't be a living in luxury but will be comfortable....depending on what the next 25 years bring. |
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Quoted:
How old are you? I'm not the most qualified retirement advisor. However, in my opinion anyone who relies on one retirement plan is a fool. I would diversify my investments as much as possible. Build up any retirement accounts that you can. Get your house paid off and don't live in a mansion in retirement. You haven't given us enough to make decent advice. I will have 3 different retirement plans not counting social security. If I get something from SS it'll just be a bonus. I won't be a living in luxury but will be comfortable....depending on what the next 25 years bring. I'm 31 and have under $10K in my retirement plan/account. Again, I HAVE diversified (bullion, stocks, money market, bank accounts, guns, etc.) within my means. But again, we aren't overly wealthy at this point in life to begin with. But the amount in the retirement plan is a total joke IMO...no? Thanks -Emt1581 |
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Quoted:
How old are you? I'm not the most qualified retirement advisor. However, in my opinion anyone who relies on one retirement plan is a fool. I would diversify my investments as much as possible. Build up any retirement accounts that you can. Get your house paid off and don't live in a mansion in retirement. You haven't given us enough to make decent advice. I will have 3 different retirement plans not counting social security. If I get something from SS it'll just be a bonus. I won't be a living in luxury but will be comfortable....depending on what the next 25 years bring. I'm 31 and have under $10K in my retirement plan/account. Again, I HAVE diversified (bullion, stocks, money market, bank accounts, guns, etc.) within my means. But again, we aren't overly wealthy at this point in life to begin with. But the amount in the retirement plan is a total joke IMO...no? Thanks -Emt1581 This is why I left estate planning & elder law and went into financial services; saw too many retirees who had $100,000 saved up at age 67 and didn't understand that they were not going to die 5 years after retirement like their parents and grandparents; today it's more like 20-25 years. Legend has it that when Einstein was once asked what was the most powerful force in the universe, he answered "compound interest." When it comes to investing for retirement, time is kinda like the US Marine Corps: No better friend, no worse enemy. The earlier you start, even with small amounts, the better. |
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Is that a tax-deferred $10K? If so, then it's really $6500. How many months would $6500 last you right now? The doom-sayers will strongly disagree with this, and IMO you should listen to everything that sounds like a reasonable suggestion and make your decision from there. You need to significantly increase your contribution to your retirement account(s). There are many online calculators that try to predict the future (which nobody can do with real accuracy), and will offer you some guidance on how much you need to contribute to get to a desired end-state. The good news is you're young, and still have a lot of time left. You can bank a lot of money over the course of 30 years, but the early dollars make the most impact... Good luck |
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Man, I expected to retire in three years, now I don't know. I even had I only need two of three retirement mechanisms to survive plan.
I guess I could always liquidate a lifetime of acquistion, buy a small place outright in Hillbilly Heaven, get myself an EBT card and have a small garden. That's what the government wants. Everything you ever worked for so they can give it those who never worked. Most people's plans are downsizing when they retire. The maintain your standard of living is getting rarer and rarer except for those who never had anything to start with. Tj |
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Quoted:
How old are you? I'm not the most qualified retirement advisor. However, in my opinion anyone who relies on one retirement plan is a fool. I would diversify my investments as much as possible. Build up any retirement accounts that you can. Get your house paid off and don't live in a mansion in retirement. You haven't given us enough to make decent advice. I will have 3 different retirement plans not counting social security. If I get something from SS it'll just be a bonus. I won't be a living in luxury but will be comfortable....depending on what the next 25 years bring. I'm 31 and have under $10K in my retirement plan/account. Again, I HAVE diversified (bullion, stocks, money market, bank accounts, guns, etc.) within my means. But again, we aren't overly wealthy at this point in life to begin with. But the amount in the retirement plan is a total joke IMO...no? Thanks -Emt1581 No, I would say it is not a joke. You probably have more than most of you peers. You still have a potential 30+yrs of working. A lot of time to do a lot of saving. If it makes you feel better, at your age I was probably in the same boat as you, The last 20yrs have made a big difference. And no, I am not wealthy either. |
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Most people's plans are downsizing when they retire. The maintain your standard of living is getting rarer and rarer except for those who never had anything to start with. Most likely because so many people have upsized their standard of living and created unrealistic expectations of what is actually affordable and practical within their means. It's not difficult to maintain a standard of living that you never allowed to get out of control in the first place. |
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Quoted:
OP, I have some more scary words for you: Means Tested Social Security. Oh you have money in your retirement account? We will thus reduce your SS benefits 50% until this has been depleted. After all it's not fair you have this account and everyone else doesn't. You must be a 1%er. While I worry about inflation killing my retirement, I worry more about the FSA somehow getting their hands on it. Is this in fact an actual threat? I'm fairly young (under 30) and in my 401K is half of what they recommend you have to have to retire. So, I'm guessing I'm ahead of the curve, but if what you're saying is true, I would be pretty pissed considering I would be getting punished for saving for my future. |
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I started my retirement accounts around 28-30. Didn't contribute a whole lot to them other than the company max. All total for the first few years was maybe 10% of my salary. I had the same "omfg" moment you did and quickly kicked up my contributions to 20% of my pay. Now I've got quite a bit more - enough for me to believe I will have a similar standard of living in retirement that I do now, assuming I continue putting in 20% or more in the accounts.
When you first start contributing, 10-20 grand looks pathetic. 10 years down the road with you have 100-150k, it'll look a hell of a lot better. 20 years down the road from that, when you've got ~1 mil in the bank it'll comforting. Of course, 1 mil in 30 years won't be 1 mil, but it'll still be nice. |
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Man, I expected to retire in three years, now I don't know. I even had I only need two of three retirement mechanisms to survive plan.
You are lucky, I have no choice but to go at 65, not allowed to do my jpb past that. And being born in January, I have to wait to 66 for full SS, if I can wait until Dec. 31, I have to wait a month and will have my pension, and SS. |
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you got to start somewhere, yea 10K isnt much but your only 31
just save, save, save, max your 401K out - you will be surprised how much it grows. social security will still be there, it will be tweaked but you should still get it - SS is one leg of your retirement triangle, the next is you 401K, and the 3rd are your taxable accounts and other assets buy dividend paying stocks, buy the shit out of them. I make about 12K/yr in dividends right now. while not a lot in total, its more than enough to pay recurring bills property taxes and insurance. once your house is paid off and you have a way to pay your taxes and insurance then all you need to worry about is heat, lights, and food, oh and ammo 
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Most people's plans are downsizing when they retire. The maintain your standard of living is getting rarer and rarer except for those who never had anything to start with. Most likely because so many people have upsized their standard of living and created unrealistic expectations of what is actually affordable and practical within their means. It's not difficult to maintain a standard of living that you never allowed to get out of control in the first place. No not necessarily. Pension plans crashing and or teetering on the edge of destruction, local governments rushing to increase taxes in order to save spending plans, and savings plans/ 401K plans/IRAs now not earning but fraction of expectations has a lot to do with it. I know retired people thanks to the same BS that crashed us in 2008 that can't afford the taxes on the cracker box homes that now costs more to live in than when they had a mortgage. The government is artificially holding interest rates to where income from savings is a joke. Unrealistic expectations is someone in their 80s that doesn't even own a computer to make retirement money day trading. Most people close to retirement lost a good portion of that plan in the 2008 crash and just now coming close to breaking even. That's five years so far not only a delay but setback. My father and mother retired with savings, annual savings income, pensions, social security, and health insurance. My pension crashed, my IRA has just now recovered after five years, forget company paid health insurance, and forget savings account income. The expectation in America for three generations has been to retire as well as their parents if not better. That's not happening now. I fear our biggest problem is denial that things have gotten worse not better and blaming it all on unreasonable expectations. Look at the advice you see in this thread, invest in an IRA/401K. That's one mechanism and if that's only one, you are making a big mistake. I wonder now if three different mechanisms wasn't a mistake, too few. A working man expectations of someday, one day, retiring period isn't unreasonable and that dream is quickly going away as a lifetime of plans can be destroyed in a matter of months. You can't make up years of preparation gone in months. Mark my words on this, we're in for my grandfather's time and the only retirement plan you can have and count on is children. Tj |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Invest in a discreet, well secured vault. Buy physical gold. PHYSICAL. It might not make you much inflated paper return, but it will sure as hell let you preserve todays earning for tomorrows needs. ETA: OPSEC, OPSEC, OPSEC Well, if you can afford to put away a LOT of value, sure...I guess
Unless you believe hyper-inflation and no return on investments is in the near future, PMs shouldn't make up the bulk of your investments. They are a hedge against a poor economy, not a way to make money for retirement. Make money? What's the value of the current DOW high when priced in gold as a comparison to US$ ? Dow is down 50% in real value, when compared to gold. Land prices, commodities, all of it a product of monetary slight of hand. and unless your doing better than 15% returns you can't even keep up with inflation/ dollar devaluation. |
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emt.
This issue is one that is sneaking up on us, and its one that has a great risk of creating a widespread sense of rage and social unrest. "retirement" is a myth. A recent one. For 20,000 years retirement was irrelevant: We died before we got old. Period. End of story. Then we discovered agriculture, medicines, etc and started living longer. Instead of dying at 40, we lived to the ripe old age of 60, maybe even 65. You plowed the fields, howed the turnips and harvested the 'taters until your body plain wore out at 50, but by then your sons had kids, and you lived in the family farm house. You did whatever jobs you could, given your infirmities. While others logged and chopped stove wood, you sat in the wood shed and split shingles with a froe or calmed a fussy baby.... Along comes the 1930-s and 40's. We start living longer, and we end up with Social Security. It's supposed to be a last chance measure of 'insurance' against the odds that you live much longer than expected. And we add unionzed labor that bargains for sweet deals: We get the pension. Initially it looks good. Millions of working stiffs will contribute a small amount that can be pooled, to provide a retirement income for the handful of people that live to retirement age. There are more workers than retirees, and retirees only live a few years before croaking. It works. Here we are now. Thanks to medicine our life expectancy has gone from 45 to 74. Thanks to collective labor, we have programs in which we contribute 3 or 4% of our pay for 20 years (perhaps age 35-55), retire early, and collect 50 or 60% of our salary for 20,25,35 years. And thanks to demographics, we will have one retiree for every one worker. This is the perfect storm. What is coming?: We all saw Dad and Grandad retire with a pension at 55 60, 65. We assume we will do the same. We forget that Granddad lived old school- He worked, rarely bought on credit, paid the house off early and tried to save few bucks. He had the sweet pension deal, and was able to retire. Again, we assume we will do the same.... New employees do not have pensions. They might have a 401K. There is some minor employee contribution, but its peanuts compared to old school pensions. Many employees contribute nothing. Millions more put $2,000 a year into a IRA or 401K and feel proud. THESE PEOPLE ARE SCREWED! They will turn 50, wonder "can I retire at 55 or do I need to work to 60?" and go see a financial planner for the first time in their life. And the rage will set in when they learn that they can NEVER retire, ever. Its like this: They have no pension. They did not save or pay off the mortgage on a 900 sq ft house like granddad. Instead, they bought 3200 sq ft, mortgaged over 30 years. Thye lived on credit and saved nothing. They got to 50, with near negative net worth. The IRA and 401K savings are maybe $50,000 or $100,000 which sounds like a lot until they realize it is ONE or TWO years retirement income. And social security is the final nail in the coffin: With baby boomers aging out, we endup with one retiree for every worker. There is no pooling of resources frm workers to pay retirees. Any acumulated SS funds were 'borrowed' to fund federal govt programs in the 1980's to now: The money is gone. Politicians have but two choices: Cut the SS benefit (meaning you get near nothing) or continue to run record govt deficits and debt (in which case you get your SS check, only our dollar is so devalued that inflation is rampant and the check buys nothing of any real help). They are fucked. They will never retire. Millions and millions of Americans are headed to this critical point right now. They are 20,30,50 years of age. They "plan" their ecconomics based on week to week "can I make the payments" philosophies. They buy now, pay for it later, and save nothing. Most don't know what a 401K really is, or how it works, and have no clue about te real differences between a traditional and a roth IRA. If the saved anything for retirement, they likely stuck it in a damned certificate of deposit where its earning 0.65% interest. Many quote the retirement Triology: SS, pension and savings. Social security cannot last. Most do not have pensions (and those that do will find the pension funds saying 'so sorry, we are broke. Your check won't come any more). That leaves personal savings. Many financial planners will tell you that conventional wisdom says you can take 2 or 3% of your nest egg every year as 'income' from savings. If you need to bring in a combined $50,000 a year (to replace the double income of most families) you need roughly TWO MILLION in your own personal savings. Know many coworkers and friends, even those with the $75,000 a year jobs, that have saved $2,000,000.00??? I really do suspect that things could well get tense when millions of americans learn that they can never retire. The disbelief will give way to anger, and in true current American fashion, they'll demand to know who is responsible for them spending all their cash and saving none. There are going to be a lot of seriously pissed off americans who just happen to hvae massive entitlement attitudes, and no real options. This is not going to be pretty. frozenny. |
| I don't really want to retire, I want to work part time. MrsWind is building a business and we are in it together. She sews and makes stuff, I design and manage....yea theWind is going to be a fashion designer...beach wear and stripper costumes....that is a job |
| Traditional retirement is not going to be an option for many people, especially my generation (20's). Social security will not be there, and hyper inflation will drive the cost of living to the point where practically all of us are dependent upon the gov. I have a decent job, my wife stays home for the kids, and assuming a 3% cost of living adjustment annually and a 10% pay boost every 7 years to account for ladder climb... I will never make enough to stop working one day and just relax. |
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Quoted:
emt. This issue is one that is sneaking up on us, and its one that has a great risk of creating a widespread sense of rage and social unrest. "retirement" is a myth. A recent one. For 20,000 years retirement was irrelevant: We died before we got old. Period. End of story. Then we discovered agriculture, medicines, etc and started living longer. Instead of dying at 40, we lived to the ripe old age of 60, maybe even 65. You plowed the fields, howed the turnips and harvested the 'taters until your body plain wore out at 50, but by then your sons had kids, and you lived in the family farm house. You did whatever jobs you could, given your infirmities. While others logged and chopped stove wood, you sat in the wood shed and split shingles with a froe or calmed a fussy baby.... Along comes the 1930-s and 40's. We start living longer, and we end up with Social Security. It's supposed to be a last chance measure of 'insurance' against the odds that you live much longer than expected. And we add unionzed labor that bargains for sweet deals: We get the pension. Initially it looks good. Millions of working stiffs will contribute a small amount that can be pooled, to provide a retirement income for the handful of people that live to retirement age. There are more workers than retirees, and retirees only live a few years before croaking. It works. Here we are now. Thanks to medicine our life expectancy has gone from 45 to 74. Thanks to collective labor, we have programs in which we contribute 3 or 4% of our pay for 20 years (perhaps age 35-55), retire early, and collect 50 or 60% of our salary for 20,25,35 years. And thanks to demographics, we will have one retiree for every one worker. This is the perfect storm. What is coming?: We all saw Dad and Grandad retire with a pension at 55 60, 65. We assume we will do the same. We forget that Granddad lived old school- He worked, rarely bought on credit, paid the house off early and tried to save few bucks. He had the sweet pension deal, and was able to retire. Again, we assume we will do the same.... New employees do not have pensions. They might have a 401K. There is some minor employee contribution, but its peanuts compared to old school pensions. Many employees contribute nothing. Millions more put $2,000 a year into a IRA or 401K and feel proud. THESE PEOPLE ARE SCREWED! They will turn 50, wonder "can I retire at 55 or do I need to work to 60?" and go see a financial planner for the first time in their life. And the rage will set in when they learn that they can NEVER retire, ever. Its like this: They have no pension. They did not save or pay off the mortgage on a 900 sq ft house like granddad. Instead, they bought 3200 sq ft, mortgaged over 30 years. Thye lived on credit and saved nothing. They got to 50, with near negative net worth. The IRA and 401K savings are maybe $50,000 or $100,000 which sounds like a lot until they realize it is ONE or TWO years retirement income. And social security is the final nail in the coffin: With baby boomers aging out, we endup with one retiree for every worker. There is no pooling of resources frm workers to pay retirees. Any acumulated SS funds were 'borrowed' to fund federal govt programs in the 1980's to now: The money is gone. Politicians have but two choices: Cut the SS benefit (meaning you get near nothing) or continue to run record govt deficits and debt (in which case you get your SS check, only our dollar is so devalued that inflation is rampant and the check buys nothing of any real help). They are fucked. They will never retire. Millions and millions of Americans are headed to this critical point right now. They are 20,30,50 years of age. They "plan" their ecconomics based on week to week "can I make the payments" philosophies. They buy now, pay for it later, and save nothing. Most don't know what a 401K really is, or how it works, and have no clue about te real differences between a traditional and a roth IRA. If the saved anything for retirement, they likely stuck it in a damned certificate of deposit where its earning 0.65% interest. Many quote the retirement Triology: SS, pension and savings. Social security cannot last. Most do not have pensions (and those that do will find the pension funds saying 'so sorry, we are broke. Your check won't come any more). That leaves personal savings. Many financial planners will tell you that conventional wisdom says you can take 2 or 3% of your nest egg every year as 'income' from savings. If you need to bring in a combined $50,000 a year (to replace the double income of most families) you need roughly TWO MILLION in your own personal savings. Know many coworkers and friends, even those with the $75,000 a year jobs, that have saved $2,000,000.00??? I really do suspect that things could well get tense when millions of americans learn that they can never retire. The disbelief will give way to anger, and in true current American fashion, they'll demand to know who is responsible for them spending all their cash and saving none. There are going to be a lot of seriously pissed off americans who just happen to hvae massive entitlement attitudes, and no real options. This is not going to be pretty. frozenny. Yes, that's about it, however I will take exception to the myth we are living longer. The rich and entitlement class are but the working class by demographics is only living 1.2 years longer than when Social Security was started. It really is as simple as if you wear your body out when you are young, you die young. BTW, for the record, though I had no intention of retiring in the home I bought and live, I thank my lucky stars I was smart enough to plan on "What if" and bought with the idea I could retire in this house. Those my age who bought the premium large homes are all looking at major losses or trying to live in houses they can't even pay the utilities let alone taxes. What it does is open options for you. I wasn't kidding. I could even keep this house, let my son pay the upkeep, and buy a small farm with what I've put back. What is lost though to my generation and upcoming generations is this idea that we can retire with incomes 80% of our current incomes. The exceptions, of course, government and power unions which even their pensions now are on the rocks. We're looking at the first generation in three that has to plan on no income other than what they generate on their own. Like you say, without massive savings, that's not going to happen. Right now due to interest rates, $100,000 gets you about $450 a month in a pension annuity. Pension anuities are a good mechanism to do retirement planning. Once you figure in having to pay medical which Obamacare is not free if you have money, that's almost a $1,00,000 to just be at the national average income with zero contention for "Mr Murphy" fix its etc. Its a hell of a realization and its shifted dramatically downward in the last five years. Its why many people are buying businesses at in their late 50s and early 60s. Retirement redefined in the future other than subsistence is leaning more to not working as much and away from traditional retirement mechanisms used over the last three generations. My FIL bought three 18 wheel trucks. Its where he spent all his career and he had the contacts. Putting drivers in them and managing the business, he got an annual income of $50,000 a year. Technically, he never did retire. Sitting on the beach drinking Foo Foo drinks is becoming less of a possibility for the majority of people and watching TV in a cracker box taking odd jobs more the reality. Tj |
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Quoted:
[Snip] I really do suspect that things could well get tense when millions of americans learn that they can never retire. The disbelief will give way to anger, and in true current American fashion, they'll demand to know who is responsible for them spending all their cash and saving none. There are going to be a lot of seriously pissed off americans who just happen to have massive entitlement attitudes, and no real options. This is not going to be pretty. frozenny. This. SS will be means tested. If you have anything, property, accounts, anything on the books, no SS for you. |
| When we built our present house, I designed it to be energy efficient. Utility pills that we need are $120 a month for electric, gas, water sewer. HurricaineAllie decided she is never leaving and when she is in her 20s she will not be able to afford a house. So we will add a mom and dad suite...we get to see our grand children and she gets babysitting like we don't have |
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A lot of companies are eliminating defined pensions(the co. that I worked 35 years for did),a lot are eliminating insurance for their retirees(mine did)and some probably will for workers down the road,Social Security may or may not be there in a few years but the money problems some of the people are going to have at retirement time are going be worsened by their lack of fiscal disipline.
Where I worked we had a lot of workers in their 20s that were hired after the co. froze the pension...no pension for them. But the co. offered a 401k with a 6% match,a lot of the young ones wouldn't even put in the minimum to get the 6% match...that's free money.I tried to encourage them to look into IRAs....Oh Hell No! That wasn't going to happen. No these were guys in their 20s buying the big houses,buying new 'vettes,new Saleen Mustangs,new trucks,new Harleys,atvs,ski boats,in-ground pools,home theaters,and on and on,all on credit and nothing for retirement. Those will be the ones standing around wondering"what happened"and"who's going to take care of me". |
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At 48 I was well on my way, had the rest of my career mapped out, savings going good, law enforcement retirement and contributing heavily towards my 457b plan.
And then, a career ending on the job injury, followed by major surgery, and other very serious medical problems. We had a nest egg that would cover our bills for a year. Fighting for the surgery I needed took 3 years, burning through my nest egg. I didn't call in sick more than 4-5 times in 25 years, and had over a year of sick leave. Burned through that. My former employer was delaying everything hoping they would back me in to a $ corner and force me to take the cheapest way out for them. I would not. I had the surgery, and then the doc said, "you were much worse than we thought, you are done working, period. At 53 I was done. Emotionally it about killed me, destroyed my sense of self-worth, but I can walk again. My anticipated great retirement was cut in half, minus $1k per month for medical for my wife and the one son we still had at home. We had our house on a 15 year loan to get it paid off, and we were 9 years into it. We very nearly lost the house, and had to refi a 20 year loan. The story is much longer, but here is the point. Stuff you do not expect to happen will happen and really put a crimp in your plans. Do not put all your eggs in one or even two baskets. Cover your ass. Imagine the worse, (short of death) happening, and plan for a way around it while you are still working. You guys who are young, in your 20's-early 30's, get your act together and spread yoru wealth around. Do NOT lock ALL your resources up in a plan that you cannot get to (without huge penalties) until you are some arbitrary age. Have access to cash money at home, Have some PM's. Have some of everything, and discipline yourself. No matter what you do for a living, who your employer is, how much you trust them or how long you've been there, or how much they, "like you"...do not, for one minute, be foolish enough to believe that if you get badly injured in the job they are going to do anything more than the absolute minimum the law requires, and expect to fight for that. Bad stuff happens to good people, and you will wind up screwed so fast you'll still be trying to figure out what happened as you are moving out of your home. |
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Very well put & spot on!! I'm a Financial Consultant and try to explain this to people, everyday. This is a very good & true thread! Quoted:
emt. This issue is one that is sneaking up on us, and its one that has a great risk of creating a widespread sense of rage and social unrest. "retirement" is a myth. A recent one. For 20,000 years retirement was irrelevant: We died before we got old. Period. End of story. Then we discovered agriculture, medicines, etc and started living longer. Instead of dying at 40, we lived to the ripe old age of 60, maybe even 65. You plowed the fields, howed the turnips and harvested the 'taters until your body plain wore out at 50, but by then your sons had kids, and you lived in the family farm house. You did whatever jobs you could, given your infirmities. While others logged and chopped stove wood, you sat in the wood shed and split shingles with a froe or calmed a fussy baby.... Along comes the 1930-s and 40's. We start living longer, and we end up with Social Security. It's supposed to be a last chance measure of 'insurance' against the odds that you live much longer than expected. And we add unionzed labor that bargains for sweet deals: We get the pension. Initially it looks good. Millions of working stiffs will contribute a small amount that can be pooled, to provide a retirement income for the handful of people that live to retirement age. There are more workers than retirees, and retirees only live a few years before croaking. It works. Here we are now. Thanks to medicine our life expectancy has gone from 45 to 74. Thanks to collective labor, we have programs in which we contribute 3 or 4% of our pay for 20 years (perhaps age 35-55), retire early, and collect 50 or 60% of our salary for 20,25,35 years. And thanks to demographics, we will have one retiree for every one worker. This is the perfect storm. What is coming?: We all saw Dad and Grandad retire with a pension at 55 60, 65. We assume we will do the same. We forget that Granddad lived old school- He worked, rarely bought on credit, paid the house off early and tried to save few bucks. He had the sweet pension deal, and was able to retire. Again, we assume we will do the same.... New employees do not have pensions. They might have a 401K. There is some minor employee contribution, but its peanuts compared to old school pensions. Many employees contribute nothing. Millions more put $2,000 a year into a IRA or 401K and feel proud. THESE PEOPLE ARE SCREWED! They will turn 50, wonder "can I retire at 55 or do I need to work to 60?" and go see a financial planner for the first time in their life. And the rage will set in when they learn that they can NEVER retire, ever. Its like this: They have no pension. They did not save or pay off the mortgage on a 900 sq ft house like granddad. Instead, they bought 3200 sq ft, mortgaged over 30 years. Thye lived on credit and saved nothing. They got to 50, with near negative net worth. The IRA and 401K savings are maybe $50,000 or $100,000 which sounds like a lot until they realize it is ONE or TWO years retirement income. And social security is the final nail in the coffin: With baby boomers aging out, we endup with one retiree for every worker. There is no pooling of resources frm workers to pay retirees. Any acumulated SS funds were 'borrowed' to fund federal govt programs in the 1980's to now: The money is gone. Politicians have but two choices: Cut the SS benefit (meaning you get near nothing) or continue to run record govt deficits and debt (in which case you get your SS check, only our dollar is so devalued that inflation is rampant and the check buys nothing of any real help). They are fucked. They will never retire. Millions and millions of Americans are headed to this critical point right now. They are 20,30,50 years of age. They "plan" their ecconomics based on week to week "can I make the payments" philosophies. They buy now, pay for it later, and save nothing. Most don't know what a 401K really is, or how it works, and have no clue about te real differences between a traditional and a roth IRA. If the saved anything for retirement, they likely stuck it in a damned certificate of deposit where its earning 0.65% interest. Many quote the retirement Triology: SS, pension and savings. Social security cannot last. Most do not have pensions (and those that do will find the pension funds saying 'so sorry, we are broke. Your check won't come any more). That leaves personal savings. Many financial planners will tell you that conventional wisdom says you can take 2 or 3% of your nest egg every year as 'income' from savings. If you need to bring in a combined $50,000 a year (to replace the double income of most families) you need roughly TWO MILLION in your own personal savings. Know many coworkers and friends, even those with the $75,000 a year jobs, that have saved $2,000,000.00??? I really do suspect that things could well get tense when millions of americans learn that they can never retire. The disbelief will give way to anger, and in true current American fashion, they'll demand to know who is responsible for them spending all their cash and saving none. There are going to be a lot of seriously pissed off americans who just happen to hvae massive entitlement attitudes, and no real options. This is not going to be pretty. frozenny. |
This is already the case! Your Soc. Sec. retirement payments are tax free.......unless your income is above a certain level, then 50% of it is taxable. Unless,..........your income is a little higher, then 85% of it is taxable! It's set up to bring out the Socialistic side of saving for Retirement! Good thing it's Friday night, most of us paying in for the rest of Society can have a drink, to numb this beautiful reality. Quoted:
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OP, I have some more scary words for you: Means Tested Social Security. Oh you have money in your retirement account? We will thus reduce your SS benefits 50% until this has been depleted. After all it's not fair you have this account and everyone else doesn't. You must be a 1%er. While I worry about inflation killing my retirement, I worry more about the FSA somehow getting their hands on it. Is this in fact an actual threat? I'm fairly young (under 30) and in my 401K is half of what they recommend you have to have to retire. So, I'm guessing I'm ahead of the curve, but if what you're saying is true, I would be pretty pissed considering I would be getting punished for saving for my future. |
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The retirement reality SUCKS for most folks, the younger, the worser it sucks.
Except for me... 
My retirement income -that I have to pay taxes on- from a major computer co that I spent the majority of my working career of working for others, before I quit --- is a GIANT..... Now get this..... $130 per month! [or it might be $230 per month, I forget, I know there's a 3 in there somewheres] So it sucks worser!
'Cept, I ANTICIPATED this, so in reality it isn't as bad as it sounds. 
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Besides, with the .gov running a DEFICIT equal roughly to the total income of the country's family units...
How long do folks think this 'economic' party is going to go on until there is a collapse [planned of course] with a Totalitarian takeover -ultimately. Then we will be on a similar retirement footing with the Norks.
We have a LOT to look forward to considering how responsible we've been -collectively managing our country.
It's funny to watch folks planning 30 years ahead with NO FRIGGIN UNDERSTANDING of what their/our ECONOMIC CIRCUMSTANCES akshully are.
Go Zoombies!  The Flat Screen is AWAITING YOU!
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Besides, with the .gov running a DEFICIT equal roughly to the total income of the country's family units... How long do folks think this 'economic' party is going to go on until there is a collapse [planned of course] with a Totalitarian takeover -ultimately. Then we will be on a similar retirement footing with the Norks.
We have a LOT to look forward to considering how responsible we've been -collectively managing our country.
It's funny to watch folks planning 30 years ahead with NO FRIGGIN UNDERSTANDING of what their/our ECONOMIC CIRCUMSTANCES akshully are.
If it does happen, then everyone is fucked. The rich, the poor, the government. If it doesn't...well then guess who is going to be laughing at who? What seems more likely to you? Massive financial doomsday or status quo? You sound like one of those idiots who won't fly on a plane because you think it might crash. |
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By the time I am old enough to "retire" in 20-30 years "retirement" will be a thing of the past. Future generations will look at the generations between the baby boom and now and wonder what the fuck they were thinking, and how they could have so badly ruined the nation's fiscal position for their own selfish desires at the expense of their children and grandchildren.
I suspect that things will go back to how they were throughout all of human history, where you worked until you couldn't anymore and then family took care of you in your twilight years, or you just worked until you died. As it was, so shall it be... I suspect that as lifespans continue to expand, and may possibly expand greatly within my lifetime, the notion of "retiring" at 65-ish is going to seem absurd, and fiscal realities will simply ensure that people work many more years until they die. My plan is to work until I die. I may "retire" from a job, but it will only be to move to another job. I don't want my grandkids changing my diapers. |
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Besides, with the .gov running a DEFICIT equal roughly to the total income of the country's family units... How long do folks think this 'economic' party is going to go on until there is a collapse [planned of course] with a Totalitarian takeover -ultimately. Then we will be on a similar retirement footing with the Norks.
We have a LOT to look forward to considering how responsible we've been -collectively managing our country.
It's funny to watch folks planning 30 years ahead with NO FRIGGIN UNDERSTANDING of what their/our ECONOMIC CIRCUMSTANCES akshully are.
If it does happen, then everyone is fucked. The rich, the poor, the government. If it doesn't...well then guess who is going to be laughing at who? What seems more likely to you? Massive financial doomsday or status quo? You sound like one of those idiots who won't fly on a plane because you think it might crash. Shows how much YOU know... 
Not profshunnaly tho... It seems you are living in a dream world, or have a great 'financial planner' making you all comfy feeling, or can't do math.
Or all of the above. 
ETA-- Or haven't read history. |
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Besides, with the .gov running a DEFICIT equal roughly to the total income of the country's family units... How long do folks think this 'economic' party is going to go on until there is a collapse [planned of course] with a Totalitarian takeover -ultimately. Then we will be on a similar retirement footing with the Norks.
We have a LOT to look forward to considering how responsible we've been -collectively managing our country.
It's funny to watch folks planning 30 years ahead with NO FRIGGIN UNDERSTANDING of what their/our ECONOMIC CIRCUMSTANCES akshully are.
Go Zoombies! The Flat Screen is AWAITING YOU!
If it does happen, then everyone is fucked. The rich, the poor, the government. If it doesn't...well then guess who is going to be laughing at who? What seems more likely to you? Massive financial doomsday or status quo? You sound like one of those idiots who won't fly on a plane because you think it might crash. Forgot something... The .gov is the LAST entity that's gonna be screwed. Thinkabtit! Amiright? |
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Besides, with the .gov running a DEFICIT equal roughly to the total income of the country's family units... How long do folks think this 'economic' party is going to go on until there is a collapse [planned of course] with a Totalitarian takeover -ultimately. Then we will be on a similar retirement footing with the Norks.
We have a LOT to look forward to considering how responsible we've been -collectively managing our country.
It's funny to watch folks planning 30 years ahead with NO FRIGGIN UNDERSTANDING of what their/our ECONOMIC CIRCUMSTANCES akshully are.
If it does happen, then everyone is fucked. The rich, the poor, the government. If it doesn't...well then guess who is going to be laughing at who? What seems more likely to you? Massive financial doomsday or status quo? You sound like one of those idiots who won't fly on a plane because you think it might crash. Forgot something... The .gov is the LAST entity that's gonna be screwed. Thinkabtit! Amiright? Yep. Everyone else will get a haircut on their accounts ion order to pay govt pension plans and worker salaries. You can bank on that. |
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Besides, with the .gov running a DEFICIT equal roughly to the total income of the country's family units... How long do folks think this 'economic' party is going to go on until there is a collapse [planned of course] with a Totalitarian takeover -ultimately. Then we will be on a similar retirement footing with the Norks.
We have a LOT to look forward to considering how responsible we've been -collectively managing our country.
It's funny to watch folks planning 30 years ahead with NO FRIGGIN UNDERSTANDING of what their/our ECONOMIC CIRCUMSTANCES akshully are.
If it does happen, then everyone is fucked. The rich, the poor, the government. If it doesn't...well then guess who is going to be laughing at who? What seems more likely to you? Massive financial doomsday or status quo? You sound like one of those idiots who won't fly on a plane because you think it might crash. Forgot something... The .gov is the LAST entity that's gonna be screwed. Thinkabtit! Amiright? Yep. Everyone else will get a haircut on their accounts ion order to pay govt pension plans and worker salaries. You can bank on that. Yep, look how screwed financially and how much suffering the Nork's .gov is/has to endure... Or ANY Totalitarian .gov.
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I did everything "right". Lived simply, and socked away at least 20% of my pay since in my twenties. I was on track to retire at 50 with a couple million bucks. Then I got a divorce.
Started again from a negative net worth (property settlement, alimony, child support and a $672,000 legal bill. That's not a typo.) Saved up another million bucks. Then my company went bankrupt. But not before looting our pension fund. I'm pretty tired of being an ATM for everyone else. Besides, I see the price of everything from groceries to ammo going through the roof, and I think it's too late for me to save a substantial retirement again anyway, let alone beat inflation. And I watch what the Eurozone is going to it's citizens as countries and banks become insolvent and energy prices climb. In a couple decades I think farmers will be driving Ferraris, not investment bankers. So I've decided to concentrate on tangible items that won't lose value and can't easily be taxed or confiscated. Improving the fertility or our soil. A fruit orchard. Fencing. Good hand tools. Good bicycles. Trapping, fishing, hunting and foraging equipment and skills. At least I can have fun outdoors and help feed my family as we circle the drain. |
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I did everything "right". Lived simply, and socked away at least 20% of my pay since in my twenties. I was on track to retire at 50 with a couple million bucks. Then I got a divorce. Started again from a negative net worth (property settlement, alimony, child support and a $672,000 legal bill. That's not a typo.) Saved up another million bucks. Then my company went bankrupt. But not before looting our pension fund. I'm pretty tired of being an ATM for everyone else. Besides, I see the price of everything from groceries to ammo going through the roof, and I think it's too late for me to save a substantial retirement again anyway, let alone beat inflation. And I watch what the Eurozone is going to it's citizens as countries and banks become insolvent and energy prices climb. In a couple decades I think farmers will be driving Ferraris, not investment bankers. So I've decided to concentrate on tangible items that won't lose value and can't easily be taxed or confiscated. Improving the fertility or our soil. A fruit orchard. Fencing. Good hand tools. Good bicycles. Trapping, fishing, hunting and foraging equipment and skills. At least I can have fun outdoors and help feed my family as we circle the drain. Holy shit -$672k???? That would buy a nice turbine BO 'copter... Mine was amicable and legal fees were abt $900... IIRC. I did give up a lot of product and some cash from RE assets but made that back quickly. My ex turned that and another short-lived marriage to a nutcase to abt 4 mil in <15 yrs. Our country IS NO LONGER the country we grew up in. And 'CHANGING' more rapidly for the worse every day. That's the harsh reality most haven't faced -yet. When they finally pull their heads out of their asses because of having to face the future resulting nasty 'events', there will be more suicides than you can shake a stick it. UNLESS 3D Flatscreens are readily available.
If folks think they can nowadays turn a $5k/yr contribution to a Roth to $1mil in a working career, I want NOTHING to do w/ what they're smoking.
I think you are right on the $$$ re buying things w/ 'lasting value'. |
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...Holy shit -$672k???? That would buy a nice turbine BO 'copter... Mine was amicable and legal fees were abt $900... The actual divorce wasn't that bad. But for several years afterwards, she sued me for everything she could think of, sometimes four times a year. She married a guy who was willing to bankroll her "recreational litigation" for a while until he divorced her, too. What I learned about lawyers: They start every suit with an asset search, and then they find a way to take whatever you have. When you have nothing left to take, whatever issue is in contention is miraculously resolved. |
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...Holy shit -$672k???? That would buy a nice turbine BO 'copter... Mine was amicable and legal fees were abt $900... The actual divorce wasn't that bad. But for several years afterwards, she sued me for everything she could think of, sometimes four times a year. She married a guy who was willing to bankroll her "recreational litigation" for a while until he divorced her, too. What I learned about lawyers: They start every suit with an asset search, and then they find a way to take whatever you have. When you have nothing left to take, whatever issue is in contention is miraculously resolved. What happened to the second guy? |
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Rodent's Theory of Thermodynamics: When the heat is on someone else, it's not on you.
She's already on her third sucker. That's a good theory. I practiced it with a right hand lady at my biz that would go on a pouting tantrum and drove me nuts. Shunned us for weeks at a time. No reason except pscho issues that we could figger. Too valuable to discharge. I always tried to give her another target besides me.
She was great until something happened abt 3 yrs before I sold out. I remember driving home that day and saying, "Well xxxx isn't my problem anymore!"
We're still friends tho. She understands what's going on in the country too. |
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Guess we'll see who's most correct eventually. I've been hearing naysaying and doomsday predictions for as long as I can remember. Something terrible is always just around the corner but never seems to come to fruition. Then it's on to the latest and greatest scare.
I'm still planning and on track to be able to retire at 60 if I want to. Between Railroad Retirement, Social Security, a company pension, multiple Roths, multiple 401ks, savings, investments, low debt and living within our means I thinks it's doable. One thing I am sure of, it would totally suck to get to retirement age and realize that the only reason you have to continue to work is because of your own failure to plan and prepare. That you screwed yourself because of irrational paranoia. |
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Besides, with the .gov running a DEFICIT equal roughly to the total income of the country's family units... How long do folks think this 'economic' party is going to go on until there is a collapse [planned of course] with a Totalitarian takeover -ultimately. Then we will be on a similar retirement footing with the Norks.
We have a LOT to look forward to considering how responsible we've been -collectively managing our country.
It's funny to watch folks planning 30 years ahead with NO FRIGGIN UNDERSTANDING of what their/our ECONOMIC CIRCUMSTANCES akshully are.
If it does happen, then everyone is fucked. The rich, the poor, the government. If it doesn't...well then guess who is going to be laughing at who? What seems more likely to you? Massive financial doomsday or status quo? You sound like one of those idiots who won't fly on a plane because you think it might crash. Shows how much YOU know... I fly 'em. [and more]
Not profshunnaly tho... It seems you are living in a dream world, or have a great 'financial planner' making you all comfy feeling, or can't do math.
Or all of the above.
ETA-- Or haven't read history. I don't think you understand what I am trying to say......let me re-phrase it. You don't have to invest all of your money...only 10-20%, the alternative is either spending it all or saving it in a bank account. Spending it all is great...as long as you have more coming in, but if you don't have enough saved away, you will run out. Saving it in a bank account is not feasible...because inflation makes your money lose value. So please tell me why it is foolish to invest? As I said before, if this "crash" happens...EVERYONE suffers equally, because that is how stocks work (unless you put all your eggs in one basket...like precious metals). Sounds to me like you are trying to justify not investing 10-20% of your income for your future. Because of your failure (at math) YOU are the person who has to be taken care of by the government. |
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Besides, with the .gov running a DEFICIT equal roughly to the total income of the country's family units... I don't think you understand what I am trying to say......let me re-phrase it. You don't have to invest all of your money...only 10-20%, the alternative is either spending it all or saving it in a bank account. Spending it all is great...as long as you have more coming in, but if you don't have enough saved away, you will run out. Saving it in a bank account is not feasible...because inflation makes your money lose value. So please tell me why it is foolish to invest? As I said before, if this "crash" happens...EVERYONE suffers equally, because that is how stocks work (unless you put all your eggs in one basket...like precious metals). Sounds to me like you are trying to justify not investing 10-20% of your income for your future. Because of your failure (at math) YOU are the person who has to be taken care of by the government. Why the personal attacks??? My 'math' has worked out well. I'll bet you a 3 donuts to a dollar that the likelyhood of YOU becoming a ward of the state due to running out of retirement resources is far greater than me. All incidental/historical issues being equal. Plus I don't even know your resources. I'd still happily take the bet.
As far as investing for the future, I'd say it was a LOT greater than 20% [not in the 'market' ]. Plus that was when you could akshully get a fairly HONEST return on your investments, not like in recent years, when most of the appreciations are phoney manipulations [to maintain the 'confidence' of the Zoombies] ---unless of course, you lock them [appreciations] in before the more pedestrian investments crash.
If my 'math' is correct, they will, sooner rather than later.
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I believe what EXPY is saying is that your "sound" investment strategy is going to come to naught because the government's profligate spending is going to render your accumulated wealth ultimately worthless. Bills paid in the future for current overspending will be paid through monetization which will cause benefit-killing inflationary pressures.
I believe that his theory is that this is designed with the goal of crashing the economy and confiscating wealth in order to consolidate power. We are already seeing "haircuts" in other countries. I think we will see the same here. Dem politicians have already talked openly about seizing retirement assets to pay for current govt expenditures. I think what he is saying is that if you think that status quo is going to continue then you have your head up your ass and are deluding yourself. Am I too far off? |
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I believe what EXPY is saying is that your "sound" investment strategy is going to come to naught because the government's profligate spending is going to render your accumulated wealth ultimately worthless. Bills paid in the future for current overspending will be paid through monetization which will cause benefit-killing inflationary pressures. I believe that his theory is that this is designed with the goal of crashing the economy and confiscating wealth in order to consolidate power. We are already seeing "haircuts" in other countries. I think we will see the same here. Dem politicians have already talked openly about seizing retirement assets to pay for current govt expenditures. I think what he is saying is that if you think that status quo is going to continue then you have your head up your ass and are deluding yourself. Too much tin foil. Invest or don't invest, won't affect me wither way. The cost of you not investing is having to work until you die/ live off the gov teat. The cost of investing is a percentage of your current income that will grow into a large amount of money. You don't have to invest every cent, and you can still buy those precious metals, guns, ammo, and food (might not be able to buy the jet-ski though). I see a LOT of folks in their 50's and 60's trying to play a catch-up game (one they can't win because of simple math), because they realize that it requires money to live, and money comes from work, and at some point you can no longer work. You obviously think my plan isn't "sound", but you have to face the possibility that YOU are incorrect, and YOU will be that poor dumb old bastard working at McDonalds to pay his bills. Worst case for me....I waste 10-20% of my lifetime income on the market...and me and you are still equal (because I too "invest" in guns, ammo, food, etc). Best case for me....the end of the world doesn't happen...my funds grow, and I retire at 55 "just because I can." |
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I don't think we're saying you are incorrect and I certainly agree to put away the absolute max you can. Sensibly, whatever that means... Considering the current climate we've found ourselves in.
I think what we're trying to get across is that the 'investment game' has changed dramatically since we 'lost' our country and many of the old investing 'rules' folks here love to regurgitate -have been turned upside down, in the past decade. 
Frankly, if you told me 14 years ago what has happened and is coming financially, I would have had a hard time believing SOME of it. That said, I began PREPARING financially -long ago- for what I thought would be a worst case, as it's playing out about now -and I'm glad I did. My 'math' was pretty much spot on. |