[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Making explosives is illegal (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 4/25/2012 10:14:41 AM EDT
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Just a reminder the manufacture of explosives is a felony.
Several episodes of Doomsday preppers and survival threads on various forums (not ARFCOM) have made mention of home made explosives. Please consider the following 1) Its illegal, if you blow yourself up during SHTF you'll probably die, if you blow yourself up prior to SHTF your house will get raided and searched. 2) Unless you have some really good training it is dangerous 3) If you do make your own explosives and blasting caps you really shouldn't consider them 100% reliable unless you manufacture and test multiple batches 4) If you do make and test multiple batches then you have know way of knowing your ignition system (home made blasting cap) will still work 2-5 years from now. 5) If you are making or assembling low explosives (safer) then you really only have a low range anti personnel weapons, better to spend your money of an RPK 6) If you plan on making high explosives for a cutting charge (bridge, power lines) then you need to rethink your plans. Chemicals like nitro methane deteriorate over time. 7) Trying to make any of this stuff after SHTF is rock stupid. http://www.google.com/search?q=manufacturing%20explosives&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&source=hp&channel=np |
| I can think of a very few limited uses for low explosive, incendiary, and chemical agent devices. Mainly in defense of a fixed position. Their actual usefulness is likely to be very low but I can imagine a significant psychological effect. Small "explosive" devices can be made without the use of actual explosives as the bursting charge. Fooling around with homemade manufacture of any real explosive is, as you say, illegal and stupid. Even without fear of prosecution, the stupid part doesn't go away and isn't even close to balanced by any reasonable need for blowing shit up. |
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I'm pretty sure that the storage and transportation of explosives is what's regulated by the BATF. If you can make a detonate explosives on your own property without violating any local ordinances, I'm not sure there is much of an issue withe the explosives themselves. Speed |
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I'm pretty sure that the storage and transportation of explosives is what's regulated by the BATF. If you can make a detonate explosives on your own property without violating any local ordinances, I'm not sure there is much of an issue withe the explosives themselves. Speed This... its not uncommon to hear stumps being removed out there with booms. |
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Just a reminder the manufacture of explosives is a felony. It is illegal to manufacture explosives FOR RESALE without a license. It is illegal to store explosives without an approved magazine, and to store or transport them without state/fed permits. You may manufacture explosives on-site for personal use, if they are used on-site, and it does not contravene any state laws. |
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Legal issues notwithstanding, it is extremely dangerous to make explosives and their utility is questionable at best. ANFO or AN and AL powder is pretty damn safe. Nitrogen tri iodide....not so much But, in general, I agree that, if you don't know what you're doing, best to stay away. Same as with firearms, chainsaws, and cars. |
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*Not legal advice by any means*
BATFE, USDoT and many states separate things into two categories, sport use and non-sporting use (commercial). There are many things that are not sport use but there are also things that are considered sporting use that improperly stored, used, handled or assembled, can be considered illegal. For example, depending on your states law and assuming that you're not a felon, you could make your own black powder for personal consumption and sporting use. By that I mean it may be possible to make your own BP and use it for your own sporting purposes, such as muzzleloaders or making rocket engines with a size no larger than what can be found in Estes model rocket engines. Conversely, if you were to make that BP then sell it to someone, you've now engaged in commercial manufacturing. This is partially why Tannerite is lawful. Its a binary explosive in the same BATFE "class" as BP which is intended to sporting use and personal consumption. The grey area is with destructive devices. Tannerite needs to be in a container so an old peanut butter jar is most likely acceptable. However, take that same Tannerite in the same jar but put ball bearings in there and you've now created a destructive device which is illegal. |
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I agree on the whole 'you'll put your eye out kid' thing, but anyone saying explosives are hard to find a use for is apparently ignoring the last 130ish years of battlefield experience.
Now in the case of a natural disaster or local emergency of some sort, I can't think of any rational uses. But if the S truly does HTF and we're living in Road Warrior land, explosives could be very useful in a wide variety of circumstances. There is a reason why, both World Wars, grenades were literally THE weapon of choice for clearing trenches, buildings and bunkers. Arguably, modern flash-bangs make grenades even more useful. That said, I doubt the BATFE would look too kindly on making or using such devices at the moment, which means for now you're practically restricted to research. Grenades are definitely something you don't want to guess about when making. |
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I agree on the whole 'you'll put your eye out kid' thing, but anyone saying explosives are hard to find a use for is apparently ignoring the last 130ish years of battlefield experience. Now in the case of a natural disaster or local emergency of some sort, I can't think of any rational uses. But if the S truly does HTF and we're living in Road Warrior land, explosives could be very useful in a wide variety of circumstances. There is a reason why, both World Wars, grenades were literally THE weapon of choice for clearing trenches, buildings and bunkers. Arguably, modern flash-bangs make grenades even more useful. That said, I doubt the BATFE would look too kindly on making or using such devices at the moment, which means for now you're practically restricted to research. Grenades are definitely something you don't want to guess about when making. I'm not saying that explosives are not useful on a battlefield (anywhere) only that you have to train with them, practice with them and use known, stable quantities with consistent power rates. Hard to do this in peace time without breaking a law and building your demo once SHTF would be dangerous and difficult. Mainly I'll I'm trying to say is don't build pipe bombs in preparation for the apocalypse while the nat geo crew is filming you. |
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Good thread so far. I agree, X. Up 'til now, the most-explosive thing I ever did was to eat my wife's baked beans, biscuits and slaw. 
You might need the Bean-O I've downloaded every single piece of probably taboo lit on explosive making I can find. I'll probably never need or use it, but I have it JIC. |
Soooooooooooo, making pipe bombs (when I was a kid) is illegal? Crap, the world really has changed  . BTW, I'm now 65 and just so you know, I still have my fingers and eyes (mostly). Use to use 'Jet-x' fuse which was sold to start small 'jet' engines for toy gliders. This was a long time ago - but a skill level that might/maybe/could come in handy in the future.
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Legal issues notwithstanding, it is extremely dangerous to make explosives and their utility is questionable at best. ANFO or AN and AL powder is pretty damn safe. Nitrogen tri iodide....not so much But, in general, I agree that, if you don't know what you're doing, best to stay away. Same as with firearms, chainsaws, and cars. The former are all low explosives, if I remember right. I'd agree they are pretty damn stable. I agree with the last bit, but I think the learning curve is a bit steeper. |
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I agree on the whole 'you'll put your eye out kid' thing, but anyone saying explosives are hard to find a use for is apparently ignoring the last 130ish years of battlefield experience. Now in the case of a natural disaster or local emergency of some sort, I can't think of any rational uses. But if the S truly does HTF and we're living in Road Warrior land, explosives could be very useful in a wide variety of circumstances. There is a reason why, both World Wars, grenades were literally THE weapon of choice for clearing trenches, buildings and bunkers. Arguably, modern flash-bangs make grenades even more useful. That said, I doubt the BATFE would look too kindly on making or using such devices at the moment, which means for now you're practically restricted to research. Grenades are definitely something you don't want to guess about when making. I am most definitely NOT ignoring the practical application of explosives. 13 years in the AZARNG, the last five of which were as an 11C and the previous eight of which were assigned to a FA unit, and including numerous live fire ranges and a downrange deployment gives me a fairly intimate understanding of the real world utility of high and low explosives. I didn't say there isn't a use. I said that the SHTF use is extremely limited. Even after the zombie nuclear holocaust, your likelihood of actually having a use for an explosive device is thin. See, in all those 130ish years of battlefield experience (akshully several thousand if you count BP as a low explosive), there's something you've conveniently ignored: Hand grenades, useful as they are, account for very few casualties and an infantryman can't really carry all that many in comparison to rifle ammo. Grunts get many more kills with their rifles than with grenades. Still, rifles don't really account for all that many kills. Artillery, the king of battle, accounts for far more. So you're thinking "Aha! Artillery rounds are packed with explosives so I'm right!" Well, sorta. It's true that explosives kill, but you have to have a way to get that bomb there and make it go boom. Doing that requires a lot more than a Joe with a lanyard. You need an FO team, and FDC team, and a gun team. Lots of people and lots of expensive equipment. Then, when that round finally goes downrange, you need to adjust fire and send another one. When you're on target you've got to fire multiple rounds to get a reasonable effect. Are you honestly going to tell me that post SHTF you'll have a company/battery worth of personnel to find, target, and destroy potential threats? Are you also going to have the resources available to make and deliver a substantial quantity of explosives? Yes, bombs are cool and fun. Yes, bombs make people dead. Yes, they are useful in WAR. No, not particularly useful in an individual SHTF situation. |
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I'm pretty sure that the storage and transportation of explosives is what's regulated by the BATF. If you can make a detonate explosives on your own property without violating any local ordinances, I'm not sure there is much of an issue withe the explosives themselves. Speed This... its not uncommon to hear stumps being removed out there with booms. Same here, when I was a kid I used to go to the local hardware/feed co-op with my uncle and watch him buy 60% by the stick....man I miss those times... 
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Soooooooooooo, making pipe bombs (when I was a kid) is illegal? Crap, the world really has changed . BTW, I'm now 65 and just so you know, I still have my fingers and eyes (mostly). Use to use 'Jet-x' fuse which was sold to start small 'jet' engines for toy gliders. This was a long time ago - but a skill level that might/maybe/could come in handy in the future.Yes, the ATF can charge you with making a destructive device, more importantly they can get a warrant for your residence and confiscate all your preps while you work out the kegal issues in court eg hutaree militia. |
| The main problem is that the rest of the world sees "explosives" as more icky than "guns." Pretty much any cobbled together jury would convict you. Just not worth it. Even Tannerite - there will be a day when tannerite is just not worth it unless your county law enforcement is loaded with gun guys that know you. I will say you might get away with small quantity of storebouht tannerite but try to make your own and you are sking for trouble. |
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I saw part of that episode and thought I saw the guy pouring BP directly into the iron pipe with no barrier between the two. I'm sure it was set up for tv but someone doing it that way will lose just an arm if thier lucky.  I've done that 100's of times and still have 10-10-2. What's the problem doing it that way? |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm pretty sure that the storage and transportation of explosives is what's regulated by the BATF. If you can make a detonate explosives on your own property without violating any local ordinances, I'm not sure there is much of an issue withe the explosives themselves. Speed This... its not uncommon to hear stumps being removed out there with booms. Same here, when I was a kid I used to go to the local hardware/feed co-op with my uncle and watch him buy 60% by the stick....man I miss those times... Till OKC Bombing, it was still relatively easy to obtain. |
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I agree on the whole 'you'll put your eye out kid' thing, but anyone saying explosives are hard to find a use for is apparently ignoring the last 130ish years of battlefield experience farm chores. <snip>making. Fixed it for you!  My grandfather used ANFO to remove stumps for years... Today, I use my backhoe, but it's still a legitimate and legal use.
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I'm pretty sure that the storage and transportation of explosives is what's regulated by the BATF. If you can make a detonate explosives on your own property without violating any local ordinances, I'm not sure there is much of an issue withe the explosives themselves. Speed The storage and manufacturing of explosives is regulated by BATFE Transportation is regulated by DOT tannerite is one of a few unique products. It has been deemed to have no terroristic uses and it is shipped as two part binary. When you put the two parts together you do not need a manufactures license if you are not combining them to sell the end product. Once it is mixed you must use it at the location it was made. You may not transport it over any public road or rail way without DOT placards and a CDL..... You may not store it unattended once mixed without a legal and approved explosive magazine. I believe you may make small quantities of explosives for personal use without a license. The kicker is once you have any measurable quantity of High explosive you must store it in a legal and approved explosives magazine...........to be legal. If you make more than small quantities and you invite The Man into your life they will probably use the quantity of explosive found to argue intent.....and they will get you for not having a legal magazine. Manufacturing explosives is dangerous, doing it with kitchen utensils is very dangerous, following the recipes on the web will get you killed or hurt bad. Raw high explosives is very unstable, the stuff used around the world has been treated with desensitizers and stabilizers, nothing like the old nitroglecerine dynamite that weeps nitro and recrystalizes. I wish we could still by dynamite and caps for farm use at the co-op, but the common man can not be trusted with such dangerous items. |
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You may not transport it over any public road or rail way without DOT placards and a CDL..... According to CFR 49 you need a bit more than that. I deal with explosives every day and it can be a pain in the ass even for us.You have to deal with DOT, DOE, EPA, DHS, etc on a regular basis. As far as making it, ive done enough HME schools to feel pretty confident in my abilities to manufacture the entire explosive train, but it's also my job. Guys cooking up primary explosives that aren't 100% on it are asking for a bad day. It's just not worth it. I've worked plenty of incidents with guys blown to bits from trying to make explosives. ANFO, ANAL, ANIS, all the AN based binaries are fun to play with but require a booster, and an initiator at a bare minimum. Even then you always run the risk of a partial or complete low order. |
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ANFO or AN and AL powder is pretty damn safe. Nitrogen tri iodide....not so much The former are all low explosives, if I remember right. They are high explosives when mixed with a fuel. When mixed correctly they are cap sensitive. Black powder is a low explosive. Quoted:
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Soooooooooooo, making pipe bombs (when I was a kid) is illegal? Crap, the world really has changed . BTW, I'm now 65 and just so you know, I still have my fingers and eyes (mostly). Use to use 'Jet-x' fuse which was sold to start small 'jet' engines for toy gliders. This was a long time ago - but a skill level that might/maybe/could come in handy in the future.Yes, the ATF can charge you with making a destructive device, more importantly they can get a warrant for your residence and confiscate all your preps while you work out the kegal issues in court eg hutaree militia. Yes, even just black powder devices can land you in the pokey. BP is an explosive when confined in a container suitable enough to create a mechanical explosion. |
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Just a reminder the manufacture of explosives is a felony. It is illegal to manufacture explosives FOR RESALE without a license. It is illegal to store explosives without an approved magazine, and to store or transport them without state/fed permits. You may manufacture explosives on-site for personal use, if they are used on-site, and it does not contravene any state laws. As to 1) It is illegal to manufacturer explosives for anything more than ocasional uise with out a license. ATF considers mixing a binary explosive to be manufacturer- so a quarry that mixes ANFO on site needs a manufacturers license Ditto for someone using stick based explosives frequently for construction work. BATF says as an option you many consider the 2 binary agents to together be an explosive and treat it as a purchased explosive (eleminating the requirement for a manufacturer's liscense.) Thus there are dealers who would sell the same case of binary explosive both on an ATF from and off the form. I spoke to an ATF agent in NC who stated this was weird but legal (we were discussing a certain dealer.). Purchased off the form the components must be stored seperatally, but need not be in a magazine. ATF used to state that someone without a dealer's license could give away unused explosives. IIRC, they actually published the question more or less saying Q: I have 3 sticks of dynamite left over, may I give them to my brother in law? A: Yes 2)A Hazmat CDL (with tit's associated restrictions) is all that is required under federal and most state laws. This may or many not apply to those not engaged in commerce. The Atlanta office of the DOT RSPA acknowledges it does not, but good look explaining that to the state trooper. Unless it's changed in the past two years, stationary magazines and a primary magazine must be registered with ATF, portable and day boxes are regulated but do not require specific approvial from ATF- the local AHJ (ie fire marshall) may have stricter rules. 3)You may manufacturer the exposives "infrequently" for commericial use, and there is noting to prohibit the legal transportation of manufactured explosives within a state. With only a few exceptions, explosives may not cross state boundries unless going to.from dealers and manufacturers. |
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I saw part of that episode and thought I saw the guy pouring BP directly into the iron pipe with no barrier between the two. I'm sure it was set up for tv but someone doing it that way will lose just an arm if thier lucky. I've poured black powder down a steel pipe many thousands of times. My pipes were connected to wood and hand spiral grooves in them.
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I don't make boom boom, i just like reading how to make it. I'm kind of a chemistry nut. Looking into building research motors for rocketry, since the new legal ruling against the ATFE has now made it easier to do. What ruling? 2008 the ATF no longer classifies composite rp as explosives. So you no longer need a LEUP. |
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Legal issues notwithstanding, it is extremely dangerous to make explosives and their utility is questionable at best. ANFO or AN and AL powder is pretty damn safe. Nitrogen tri iodide....not so much But, in general, I agree that, if you don't know what you're doing, best to stay away. Same as with firearms, chainsaws, and cars. And cups of hot coffee in moving vehicles. 
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Ah!....... the good old days of making big bangs! (rifle grenades for my muzzle loader in 1961?), but the best portable big bang was a Davy Crockett that I carried in a pack on my back In the 82nd Abn- would take out a grid square.. first nuke to be eliminated in the SALT agreements! They were afraid that someone might put their eye out- or something like that!
I seem to remember that we liked our Claymores pretty well at night in VN... just another tool in the bag.. |
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That's all we see around here in Afghanistan IEDS, so yes it would be very useful in a SHTF scenario. Bury it in the road let you know when someone is coming! There are certain tactical considerations that make the IEDs somewhat useful in combat and less so in SHTF. The biggest difference is that one's goal in combat is to kill or wound the enemy. Both sides take not insignificant risks to get that job done. Your goal in SHTF, presumably, is to survive. The only real practical use I can think of is in support of a fixed defense. A fougasse on a likely avenue of approach might make an attacker rethink his choices. Small antipersonnel mines in an area along with tanglefoot will make it VERY hard to approach your position from anywhere but your preferred lanes of fire. Given some time, explosives could be very useful in hardening a position. |
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I'm pretty sure that the storage and transportation of explosives is what's regulated by the BATF. If you can make a detonate explosives on your own property without violating any local ordinances, I'm not sure there is much of an issue withe the explosives themselves. Speed "Learn the rules, so you know how to break them properly." - Dalai Lama |
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I tend to agree with the OP. In a SHTF I would rely upon my wits and my rifle primarily. Exceptions would be made for molotov cocktails and I believe there is a good argument for having a few pounds of Tannerite on hand. It'd also be handy for fucking up a road or bridge that you'd like to no longer be there, |
| Things have changed, when I was 7 I spent the 4th of July at my cousins place, they were a bit older (16) and my Uncle owned a construction company. My cousins put 4 sticks of dynamite on a 2x4 out in a field and shot at it with a deer rifle. Guess what? No cops, no ATF, nothing. And Schumer, Kerry, and that other bitch (Fineswine, oink oink) lived through it. |
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Ah!....... the good old days of making big bangs! (rifle grenades for my muzzle loader in 1961?), but the best portable big bang was a Davy Crockett that I carried in a pack on my back In the 82nd Abn- would take out a grid square.. first nuke to be eliminated in the SALT agreements! They were afraid that someone might put their eye out- or something like that! I seem to remember that we liked our Claymores pretty well at night in VN... just another tool in the bag.. Welcome home! 
My Dad was 25ID 1970-71 Wolfhounds from Cu Chi. He has a hilarious story about Bangalore Torpedos |
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Thanks for posting this.......I was watching doomsday prepers and kept wondering if these idiots had ever heard of the ATF..............Too stupid to survive And the morons will increase scrutiny on everyone else. If those two preppers ever get in a questionable situation (defense shooting, firearms sale/purchase) that video will come back to haunt them. Its not like Nat Geo can't be supposed for the rest of the film... |
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That's all we see around here in Afghanistan IEDS, so yes it would be very useful in a SHTF scenario. Bury it in the road let you know when someone is coming! There are certain tactical considerations that make the IEDs somewhat useful in combat and less so in SHTF. The biggest difference is that one's goal in combat is to kill or wound the enemy. Both sides take not insignificant risks to get that job done. Your goal in SHTF, presumably, is to survive. The only real practical use I can think of is in support of a fixed defense. A fougasse on a likely avenue of approach might make an attacker rethink his choices. Small antipersonnel mines in an area along with tanglefoot will make it VERY hard to approach your position from anywhere but your preferred lanes of fire. Given some time, explosives could be very useful in hardening a position. It isn't always about your use, if you know and understand how to make explosives and IED's, you can more easily defeat them. When I sit at work and make IEDs it isn't for me to use them, it's for me to better understand how to stop them. For example, all you guys advocating ANFO/ANAL based explosives for SHTF, a common yet easily overlooked fact is that the oxidizer, ammonium nitrate, is water soluble. This simple fact has made my job easy on many, many occasions and has saved the lives of many US personnel overseas. |
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Fireworks aerial salutes are generally made from flash powder. It is perfectly legal to make and shoot these off (in the country) without a license, as long as they are not transported or stored. Meaning that you must shoot them off the same day that you make them. |
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I'm pretty sure that the storage and transportation of explosives is what's regulated by the BATF. If you can make a detonate explosives on your own property without violating any local ordinances, I'm not sure there is much of an issue withe the explosives themselves. Speed This... its not uncommon to hear stumps being removed out there with booms. Same here, when I was a kid I used to go to the local hardware/feed co-op with my uncle and watch him buy 60% by the stick....man I miss those times... Till OKC Bombing, it was still relatively easy to obtain. It's a PITA now, I've been trying to find some tannerite usage for a while, but doing so without getting yourself a visit from the FBI party van can be difficult nowdays. |
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[ For example, all you guys advocating ANFO/ANAL based explosives for SHTF, a common yet easily overlooked fact is that the oxidizer, ammonium nitrate, is water soluble. This simple fact has made my job easy on many, many occasions and has saved the lives of many US personnel overseas. I think you mean hydroscopic. It also saved one of my former employers facilites in this hemisphere where AN something bombs were atached to an antenna tower in the carribean. Site tech found a bunch of plastic bags mostly empty taped to the towers. Eventually the FBI heard about an attempted bombing and sent agents to investigate. No one was sure it was a bomb, but the corrosion at the location of the bags pointed to AN. More or less the same time, we lost another facility to a bomb placed inside the air conditioned building. It at least blew the door off the hinges. This was years ago, while I was still in school. Just due to corrosion, I've also seen it take out a truck bed (just the fertlizer) and an explosives magazine (AN based binary mixture) I don't know if yall see it in iraq, but when it assorbs enough moisture it swells, often cracking the container it is in, falling to the bottom of the magazine. I wonder if you could sink a ship with 50 lbs of AN in a conceiled location. Might take a few years, but I wouldn't be suprised if it could eat through some serious hull thickness. It's evil stuff. It does have the redeming characistic of cooling your beer quickly. And then can still be used as either a herbicide or fertlizer depending on how carefully you pour. |