[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Need some AR advice (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 3/12/2012 4:14:55 PM EDT
|
I have 1 AR , its a S&W M&P.....I like the weapon but am thinking about adding one of these as my true go to AR.http://www.tombstonetactical.com/catalog/colt/Colt-Carbine-AR15-223-CLT-CARB-SOCOM-223-16.1-30RD/ with the S&W as a back up.....do you guys think the colts are a better weapon or mostly hype ? This will be the weapon I plan on grabbing if "the road" EOTWAWKI scenario were to ever play out which is why im looking at the colt thinking its a true mil spec weapon with no chinese short cut parts in it. (im not trying to insult anyones favorite brand of weapon here just looking for some honest advice)
Thanks |
|
It's like this ..........
Colt is a known "quality" manufacturer thats been doing it longer than anyone else that said they are just like everyone else every once in a while a bad one slips through. Several other quality manufacturers in the game....... you can build / buy a quality gun just like you want it now basically. Best thing to do is buy or build exactly what you want just get known quality parts....... keep it lubed you'll be happy. No reason to settle for something off the rack now unless it's exactly what you want. |
|
Quoted:
I have 1 AR , its a S&W M&P.....I like the weapon...............................bla bla bla.................. (im not trying to insult anyones favorite brand of weapon here just looking for some honest advice) Thanks honestly, I think you would be better off spending the $1500 on food, water and supplies. I'd much rather have that then another (overrated) tool for as you called it......"the road" EOTWAWKI scenario. If the M&P is reliable and goes bang...........then why replace it? If you like it, and you want to add upgrades to it to suit your needs then go that route. If you just want another EBR then just buy it. If you have to have a pony, then by all means pay for the name. It doesn't kill mutant zombies any better, it just costs more. Try not to get caught up in all the hype of "OMG it has to be a mil-spec", lot's of companies make there AR's to mil-spec, some even take it further. BT |
| I have a Maine made Bushy ORC. I have a Colt 6920. I can tell no difference between the the two. Both are well made weapons. I have no regrets in buying either one. With that said it is my opinion that the Colt SOCOM is a good rifle (6920), but a gimmick with the name to get more money. YMMV |
|
I personally would think long and hard at spending 1500 on another AR, without first answering the following.
1. Do you have Food, Water, Shelter covered? 2. Do you have ammo, cleaning, spare parts, mags and ammo covered for the current AR? 3. Do you know that you can build 2 maybe 3 ARs yourself for 1500, learning valuable information about the weapon along the way? Thank you, ~DoubleAD~ |
|
Quoted: I have 1 AR , its a S&W M&P.....I like the weapon but am thinking about adding one of these as my true go to AR.http://www.tombstonetactical.com/catalog/colt/Colt-Carbine-AR15-223-CLT-CARB-SOCOM-223-16.1-30RD/ with the S&W as a back up.....do you guys think the colts are a better weapon or mostly hype ? This will be the weapon I plan on grabbing if "the road" EOTWAWKI scenario were to ever play out which is why im looking at the colt thinking its a true mil spec weapon with no chinese short cut parts in it. (im not trying to insult anyones favorite brand of weapon here just looking for some honest advice) Thanks someone is putting words in your mouth or did you think of this yourself, " no chinese short cut parts in it." ?? Your current AR is fine for the road. That will be that last thing that matters by that time anyway. spend 1500 bucks on food n other preps. or build a KISS AR for about 750 like i did. |
|
Some food for thought.......
M4A1 rifle kit $569.99 Stripped Lower $79.95 Magpul MBUS $55.05 Aimpoint Patrol Rifle Optic $410 KAC M4 RAS $150 blemmed That comes out to about 1265 bucks with a Aimpoint sight. Hard to beat the quality of PSA. Oh and it leaves you around 235 bucks for shipping, transfer fees, cleaning kit, twinkies, lot's of oil and a sling. 
So far I have yet to tell the operational differnce between Colt, Bushmaster, RRA, Stag, LMT, Noveske and PSA in the field, range and classes/courses. Now if your talking about cosmetic's, that's a different story. My two Colt's are hands down at the bottom end of the scale. YMMV BT |
I have had a few ARs and none have failed me. I currently own a S&W M&P15T and I wouldn't trade it for any other AR (though I was tempted to for a Larue for half a second  ). I think S&W is a new force to be reckoned with in terms of "tactical" firearms. They have a good reputation and their new M&P line is outstanding. M&P rifles and pistols are earning the respect of their shooters. I would just keep the S&W you have and buy more preps, or get another S&W 
|
|
I bought my S&W M&P 15 in 2008 and I'm willing to bet all kinds of money more than 25,000 rounds have been through it. By the books(yes I keep a record since I'm a nerd.)
Parts I have replaced every 5000 rounds or so... Firing pin, firing pin retaining pin, gas rings, charging handle latch roll pin. At 10,000 rounds... Buffer spring, cam pin, extractor, extractor spring and rubber grommet. Also at the 10,000 mark I replaced the Smith trigger with a timney 4.5 pound. At 20,000 rounds I replaced the buffer, removed and replaced the castle nut, since the old one started to move. I should hit 30,000 rounds this summer. The trigger now has at least 15,000 live fire pulls on it and still feels great, so props to timney. Failures as follows... numbers over five hundred rounded down to the nearest 100th. 214 USGI magazine related failures from a pool of 60 different mags over 5000 rounds 98 H&K magazine related failures from a pool of 10 mags over 5,000 rounds 11 PMAG magazine related failures from a pool of 9 mags over 15,000 rounds Tula ammo out of 100 rounds 27 FTE in mild heat 3 broken cases with no heat 6 Non mag related FTF 8 hang fires 3 fail to fire Remington UMC 55 grain FMJ out of 15,000 rounds 143 FTE in high heat 57 broken cases in high heat 9 fail to fire XM855 over 10,000 rounds 23 FTE in high heat 1 broken case in mild heat 3 fail to fire Failures organic to the weapon aren't frequent enough to be tracked. I was issued a Colt by the Army and fired close to 30,000 rounds out of it. It was brand new when I got it, and had very very few issues other than magazines, which seemed high due to USGI mags, also note I never used PMAGs with it.. Just keep in mind the colt went through the same number of rounds in 15 months as I have put through the smith in 4 years. I must note that one of the issues with the Colt was a bolt failure at the cam pin hole when the rifle had less than a hundred rounds through it, but the chances of that happening are about like winning the lottery and have never seen that with any AR platform before or since. Other ARs have come and gone, but the S&W is here to stay. Hundreds of thousands of them have been made and mine seems to work pretty darn well. |
|
Quoted: I have had a few ARs and none have failed me. I currently own a S&W M&P15T and I wouldn't trade it for any other AR (though I was tempted to for a Larue for half a second ). I think S&W is a new force to be reckoned with in terms of "tactical" firearms. They have a good reputation and their new M&P line is outstanding. M&P rifles and pistols are earning the respect of their shooters. I would just keep the S&W you have and buy more preps, or get another S&W Ditto! |
|
Quoted: I have 1 AR , its a S&W M&P.....I like the weapon but am thinking about adding one of these as my true go to AR.http://www.tombstonetactical.com/catalog/colt/Colt-Carbine-AR15-223-CLT-CARB-SOCOM-223-16.1-30RD/ with the S&W as a back up.....do you guys think the colts are a better weapon or mostly hype ? This will be the weapon I plan on grabbing if "the road" EOTWAWKI scenario were to ever play out which is why im looking at the colt thinking its a true mil spec weapon with no chinese short cut parts in it. (im not trying to insult anyones favorite brand of weapon here just looking for some honest advice) Thanks uncool, Here's an archived thread where I asked a similar question last year. Looks like the poll disappeared, but still some good info in those 6 pages... http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_10_17/645026_AR_15_Reliability_by_brand.html -Slice |
|
Quoted: Good post corigan. Your bolt failure is exactly why we have to thoroughly test our stuff before relying on it. Any manufacturing defect in a gun will usually show itself within 500 rounds or so. +1 on that post corigan. Thanks for being a nerd. That is great info. And just remember, your a(self proclaimed)nerd with a shit load of trigger time and a skill set.  |
|
Are S&W M&P's AR's good enough to stake our lives on???
It has 1:9 twist? What does that mean for M855 ammo? Should I use M193 or M855? Did I read the Ammo Oracle? Yes! "Regardless, both 1:9 and 1:7 twists seem to shoot M193 and M855 very well." Ammo_O Still recommended? |
|
Quoted:
Are S&W M&P's good enough to stake our lives on??? It has 1:9 twist? What does that mean for 855 ammo? Means it goes bang and hits minute of bad guy, hopefully 
All my 1:9's eat 855 just fine. I told them people on the interwebs say it isn't so but they continue to not listen to the learning
BT |
|
Abt the M&P...
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/01/ralph/gun-review-smith-wesson-mp15-orc/ "The M&P’s twist rate is 1 in 9, which led me to believe that, with the right ammo, it might shoot a little straighter despite its 16 inch carbine barrel. "The M&P has a chromed bore, gas key, bolt carrier and chamber. Is the M&P flash hider compat w/ NV as well as the Vortex and others mentioned in another recent thread? |
|
Quoted:
IMO ArmaLite... The first makers of the AR hints the name Colt is a good company but i feel as if people hype it up LOL You do realize it's not the "same" company.............. someone bought the name to capitalize on it. Granted this armalite turns out an allright product but they bought that name...... |
|
Quoted:
I bought my S&W M&P 15 in 2008 and I'm willing to bet all kinds of money more than 25,000 rounds have been through it. By the books(yes I keep a record since I'm a nerd.) <snip> Your mean failure rate, if I am reading your math right, is very high. Is your M&P select fire? Did you continue using magazines that were known to be bad? It is much higher than my 5.45 training upper shooting all steel cased corrosive ammo with garbage Cprod magazines. I do not consider that upper reliable enough to use in personal defense. |
|
I ordered one of those 6940s for a customer...meh. Maybe I have just seen too many ARs, but it didn't impress me much. I mean it was a fine gun, but I would rather have just built my own.
ETA: I just realized the op is not looking at the 6940. The rifle you are looking at is too much money. I sold the 6940 for that, and I thought it was overpriced even though I made virtually nothing off that deal. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
IMO ArmaLite... The first makers of the AR hints the name Colt is a good company but i feel as if people hype it up You do realize it's not the "same" company.............. someone bought the name to capitalize on it. Granted this armalite turns out an allright product but they bought that name...... Armalite invited the ar15 sold the design to colt |
|
Quoted:
Are S&W M&P's AR's good enough to stake our lives on??? It has 1:9 twist? What does that mean for M855 ammo? Should I use M193 or M855? Did I read the Ammo Oracle? Yes! "Regardless, both 1:9 and 1:7 twists seem to shoot M193 and M855 very well." Ammo_O Still recommended? 1:9 is good for either round 55gr or 62gr. 1:7 is good for 62gr - 77 gr match. I have a S&W M&P15T rifle and it is a great rifle. I am looking at possibly getting another. Still recommended - YES
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I bought my S&W M&P 15 in 2008 and I'm willing to bet all kinds of money more than 25,000 rounds have been through it. By the books(yes I keep a record since I'm a nerd.) <snip> Your mean failure rate, if I am reading your math right, is very high. Is your M&P select fire? Did you continue using magazines that were known to be bad? It is much higher than my 5.45 training upper shooting all steel cased corrosive ammo with garbage Cprod magazines. I do not consider that upper reliable enough to use in personal defense. The failure rate does seem very high indeed. I have a S&W M&P15T with a few thousand rounds through it (granted not 25,000 rounds) and I have never had a failure. I only use C-Products stainless steel 30rnd mags. I shoot Federal 55gr FMJ and Federal 62gr FMJ ammo. |
|
I'd buy a duplicate S&W and some ammo/mags/spare parts if you really want another AR15.
We had 3 newish Smith & Wessons in a carbine class this last weekend and they all ran very, very well even though the one gun was dry as a friggen bone.......Oddly enough the only parts breakage we saw was on a Barrett RECCE- a Damn Expensive rifle.....It was a minor issue- the dust cover broke- apparently the piston driven bolt needs to have one of its' surfaces re engineered.... I ran a pieces parts gun (literally built from my parts stash- $275 cash outlay in total) with only 30 rounds through it that I and my kids had built- it ran fine-with steel case ammo.....(waiting for heads to explode)........ |
|
Quoted:
Corigan good record keeping but lots and lots of failures yet you still recommend the S&W? Yes I would. Total failures equal 1.88% of rounds fired. If I shoot tula ammo out of USGI mags the failure rate goes over 50%, but if I use M855 with PMAGS the failure rate drops to .38%. So needless to say I have traded out all my mags for PMAGS, and all of my ammo for M855, since using this means for me that if I pull the trigger there is a 99.62% chance the gun will go all bang and such. I can live with a 99.62% success rate. I have so few failures organic to the weapon itself (0.01% at 10,000 rounds or so) I don't even track it any more. Attaching analytical data to weapons and gear can be eye opening and pretty surprising, and a little disheartening at first. I can have my opinions all I want but if I can't get a M1A to go bang more than 94% of the time, then its for sale. I've also given up Fals and AKs over unacceptable failure rates. I also have friends who track data on their weapons, and the failure rates so far don't have me shopping for a ACR, SCAR, or piston AR at this time. Though they seem like pretty good guns I haven't felt the need to spend 2000 plus dollars on a ACR with a almost 1% failure rate to replace my beat up S&W with a .38% failure rate. However note that the failure rate on these weapons is dropping as time goes on, but nonetheless still higher than my about worn out S&W. |
|
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: IMO ArmaLite... The first makers of the AR hints the name Colt is a good company but i feel as if people hype it up You do realize it's not the "same" company.............. someone bought the name to capitalize on it. Granted this armalite turns out an allright product but they bought that name...... Armalite invited the ar15 sold the design to colt Yes Mr E. Stoner devloped the AR when he worked for the Armalite division of Fairchild aircraft corp. Since then the AR was sold to Colt and Armalite was sold too. Fairchild has been merged and bought, so they do not exist as Fairchild anay more. Mr. Stoner worked for Knight arms for a while before he passed away. So if you really want to hollar about who devloped the AR, you need to follow Mr Stoner and Colt. Mr Stoner devloped some follow on weapons, and Colt worked the original AR into the durable platform that you are familiar with today. |
 at those who did not read and comprehend corrigan's first post.Bad ammo = gun's fault   Bad magazine = gun's fault Good posts corrigan Thank you for sharing Quoted: Quoted: Corigan good record keeping but lots and lots of failures yet you still recommend the S&W? Yes I would. Total failures equal 1.88% of rounds fired. If I shoot tula ammo out of USGI mags the failure rate goes over 50%, but if I use M855 with PMAGS the failure rate drops to .38%. So needless to say I have traded out all my mags for PMAGS, and all of my ammo for M855, since using this means for me that if I pull the trigger there is a 99.62% chance the gun will go all bang and such. I can live with a 99.62% success rate. I have so few failures organic to the weapon itself (0.01% at 10,000 rounds or so) I don't even track it any more. Attaching analytical data to weapons and gear can be eye opening and pretty surprising, and a little disheartening at first. I can have my opinions all I want but if I can't get a M1A to go bang more than 94% of the time, then its for sale. I've also given up Fals and AKs over unacceptable failure rates. I also have friends who track data on their weapons, and the failure rates so far don't have me shopping for a ACR, SCAR, or piston AR at this time. Though they seem like pretty good guns I haven't felt the need to spend 2000 plus dollars on a ACR with a almost 1% failure rate to replace my beat up S&W with a .38% failure rate. However note that the failure rate on these weapons is dropping as time goes on, but nonetheless still higher than my about worn out S&W. |
| Something else to keep in mind when looking at all these numbers is other conditions. This information was collected in hot 90 degree weather, snow, rain, from a clean weapon and from a dirty weapon. Also I will continue to use faulty mags in training, one to make sure the mag is the root cause of the problem, and to force myself into clearing a malfunction at unexpected times, though I try not to count these failures but still end up counting some of these in the total because sometimes things are moving a bit too fast to see the mag number and the bad mag inadvertently adds a few failures that otherwise would have not been counted. After the mag is found to be the issue, it is destroyed, the first malfunction is counted and the rest are not if it is known. |
|
Quoted:
at those who did not read and comprehend corrigan's first post.
Bad ammo = gun's fault
Bad magazine = gun's fault
Good posts corrigan Thank you for sharing Quoted:
Quoted:
Corigan good record keeping but lots and lots of failures yet you still recommend the S&W? Yes I would. Total failures equal 1.88% of rounds fired. If I shoot tula ammo out of USGI mags the failure rate goes over 50%, but if I use M855 with PMAGS the failure rate drops to .38%. So needless to say I have traded out all my mags for PMAGS, and all of my ammo for M855, since using this means for me that if I pull the trigger there is a 99.62% chance the gun will go all bang and such. I can live with a 99.62% success rate. I have so few failures organic to the weapon itself (0.01% at 10,000 rounds or so) I don't even track it any more. Attaching analytical data to weapons and gear can be eye opening and pretty surprising, and a little disheartening at first. I can have my opinions all I want but if I can't get a M1A to go bang more than 94% of the time, then its for sale. I've also given up Fals and AKs over unacceptable failure rates. I also have friends who track data on their weapons, and the failure rates so far don't have me shopping for a ACR, SCAR, or piston AR at this time. Though they seem like pretty good guns I haven't felt the need to spend 2000 plus dollars on a ACR with a almost 1% failure rate to replace my beat up S&W with a .38% failure rate. However note that the failure rate on these weapons is dropping as time goes on, but nonetheless still higher than my about worn out S&W. I'm sorry but it's not that simple. If a gun will not run with REASONABLE ammo and mags it's a fucking toy and not a WEAPON. I have never felt that USGI mags, the ones the rifle was designed around, were "bad mags". As far as steel cased ammo, again, if you're rifle won't reliably run it, you have a fucking TOY and not a weapon. Steel cased ammo is nearly the standard for civilian, defensive rifle ammo in much of the world and guess what? We are quickly becoming "the rest of the world". Shortages and economic strife make it ever more likely that "safe queens" are going to have to figure out how to eat at McDonalds instead of Ruths Cris all the time. If they don't.....well, they will die....or in this case, their owners will. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
at those who did not read and comprehend corrigan's first post.
Bad ammo = gun's fault
Bad magazine = gun's fault
Good posts corrigan Thank you for sharing Quoted:
Quoted:
Corigan good record keeping but lots and lots of failures yet you still recommend the S&W? Yes I would. Total failures equal 1.88% of rounds fired. If I shoot tula ammo out of USGI mags the failure rate goes over 50%, but if I use M855 with PMAGS the failure rate drops to .38%. So needless to say I have traded out all my mags for PMAGS, and all of my ammo for M855, since using this means for me that if I pull the trigger there is a 99.62% chance the gun will go all bang and such. I can live with a 99.62% success rate. I have so few failures organic to the weapon itself (0.01% at 10,000 rounds or so) I don't even track it any more. Attaching analytical data to weapons and gear can be eye opening and pretty surprising, and a little disheartening at first. I can have my opinions all I want but if I can't get a M1A to go bang more than 94% of the time, then its for sale. I've also given up Fals and AKs over unacceptable failure rates. I also have friends who track data on their weapons, and the failure rates so far don't have me shopping for a ACR, SCAR, or piston AR at this time. Though they seem like pretty good guns I haven't felt the need to spend 2000 plus dollars on a ACR with a almost 1% failure rate to replace my beat up S&W with a .38% failure rate. However note that the failure rate on these weapons is dropping as time goes on, but nonetheless still higher than my about worn out S&W. I'm sorry but it's not that simple. If a gun will not run with REASONABLE ammo and mags it's a fucking toy and not a WEAPON. I have never felt that USGI mags, the ones the rifle was designed around, were "bad mags". As far as steel cased ammo, again, if you're rifle won't reliably run it, you have a fucking TOY and not a weapon. Steel cased ammo is nearly the standard for civilian, defensive rifle ammo in much of the world and guess what? We are quickly becoming "the rest of the world". Shortages and economic strife make it ever more likely that "safe queens" are going to have to figure out how to eat at McDonalds instead of Ruths Cris all the time. If they don't.....well, they will die....or in this case, their owners will. I totaly disagree. If I put $10 tires on my bike and they suck ass does that make it not a motorcycle? Corigan made a very excellent data point that I think is very realistic. Firearms have failures. All firearms. My issued colts shit the bed from time to time. Was it magazines? Wear? Who knows, but a new issue colt would not do any better I bet than what corrigan M&P did. Glock is undeniably considered one of the most reliable handguns out there. But when I try shitty tula ammo in them I have problems with failure to fire and failure to feed. I guess they are toys too. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
at those who did not read and comprehend corrigan's first post.
Bad ammo = gun's fault
Bad magazine = gun's fault
Good posts corrigan Thank you for sharing Quoted:
Quoted:
Corigan good record keeping but lots and lots of failures yet you still recommend the S&W? Yes I would. Total failures equal 1.88% of rounds fired. If I shoot tula ammo out of USGI mags the failure rate goes over 50%, but if I use M855 with PMAGS the failure rate drops to .38%. So needless to say I have traded out all my mags for PMAGS, and all of my ammo for M855, since using this means for me that if I pull the trigger there is a 99.62% chance the gun will go all bang and such. I can live with a 99.62% success rate. I have so few failures organic to the weapon itself (0.01% at 10,000 rounds or so) I don't even track it any more. Attaching analytical data to weapons and gear can be eye opening and pretty surprising, and a little disheartening at first. I can have my opinions all I want but if I can't get a M1A to go bang more than 94% of the time, then its for sale. I've also given up Fals and AKs over unacceptable failure rates. I also have friends who track data on their weapons, and the failure rates so far don't have me shopping for a ACR, SCAR, or piston AR at this time. Though they seem like pretty good guns I haven't felt the need to spend 2000 plus dollars on a ACR with a almost 1% failure rate to replace my beat up S&W with a .38% failure rate. However note that the failure rate on these weapons is dropping as time goes on, but nonetheless still higher than my about worn out S&W. I'm sorry but it's not that simple. If a gun will not run with REASONABLE ammo and mags it's a fucking toy and not a WEAPON. I have never felt that USGI mags, the ones the rifle was designed around, were "bad mags". As far as steel cased ammo, again, if you're rifle won't reliably run it, you have a fucking TOY and not a weapon. Steel cased ammo is nearly the standard for civilian, defensive rifle ammo in much of the world and guess what? We are quickly becoming "the rest of the world". Shortages and economic strife make it ever more likely that "safe queens" are going to have to figure out how to eat at McDonalds instead of Ruths Cris all the time. If they don't.....well, they will die....or in this case, their owners will. I totaly disagree. If I put $10 tires on my bike and they suck ass does that make it not a motorcycle? Corigan made a very excellent data point that I think is very realistic. Firearms have failures. All firearms. My issued colts shit the bed from time to time. Was it magazines? Wear? Who knows, but a new issue colt would not do any better I bet than what corrigan M&P did. Glock is undeniably considered one of the most reliable handguns out there. But when I try shitty tula ammo in them I have problems with failure to fire and failure to feed. I guess they are toys too. It makes YOUR Glock a toy......there's a difference. Yes, all firearms have failures but if you are having a consistent issue you need to investigate and determine the cause and FIX it. It's not really a fix to say, "Well, I just won't shoot that kind of ammo". It may indeed be an ammo issue but the fact is that MANY Glocks and other handguns will run fine with this "shitty ammo".....so then you need to take a hard look at the individual gun itself. I think far too many American shooters are used to unlimited quantities of spare parts, excellent magazines, high end brass cased ammo that is only a phone call and overnite UPS away.....It doesn't work that way in the rest of the world and I seriously believe it will not always continue to be that way here- anyone who is paying attention can see the beginnings of this now. Again, I completed a carbine class with John Farnham this last weekend using a parts gun AR15 that I built at my kitchen table with shit from my spares and take offs' pile with help from my 11 and 13 year old. I ran it with TCW steel cased ammo and USGI aluminum mags and it never stuttered despite the fact that it only had about 30 rounds on it when I showed up at class- When we were talking about what we had brought to shoot I made it clear "I'm doing everything today that you're NOT SUPPOSED TO DO" and everyone laughed- I also had a well vetted spare rifle just in case it did shit all over itself. Why was I willing to do this? Because I'm a certified and trained Rock River armorer and while the parts were all mixmaster, they were excellent quality parts that I had inspected. I've attended probably a dozen carbine courses and I know what it takes to make a rifle run under those kinds of conditions- even with less than stellar ammo etc.... and if a gun won't....I get rid of the damn thing. |
|
Quoted:
It makes YOUR Glock a toy......there's a difference. Yes, all firearms have failures but if you are having a consistent issue you need to investigate and determine the cause and FIX it. It's not really a fix to say, "Well, I just won't shoot that kind of ammo". It may indeed be an ammo issue but the fact is that MANY Glocks and other handguns will run fine with this "shitty ammo".....so then you need to take a hard look at the individual gun itself. I think far too many American shooters are used to unlimited quantities of spare parts, excellent magazines, high end brass cased ammo that is only a phone call and overnite UPS away.....It doesn't work that way in the rest of the world and I seriously believe it will not always continue to be that way here- anyone who is paying attention can see the beginnings of this now. Again, I completed a carbine class with John Farnham this last weekend using a parts gun AR15 that I built at my kitchen table with shit from my spares and take offs' pile with help from my 11 and 13 year old. I ran it with TCW steel cased ammo and USGI aluminum mags and it never stuttered despite the fact that it only had about 30 rounds on it when I showed up at class- When we were talking about what we had brought to shoot I made it clear "I'm doing everything today that you're NOT SUPPOSED TO DO" and everyone laughed- I also had a well vetted spare rifle just in case it did shit all over itself. Why was I willing to do this? Because I'm a certified and trained Rock River armorer and while the parts were all mixmaster, they were excellent quality parts that I had inspected. I've attended probably a dozen carbine courses and I know what it takes to make a rifle run under those kinds of conditions- even with less than stellar ammo etc.... and if a gun won't....I get rid of the damn thing. If you honestly believe there is no such thing as crappy inconsistent ammo I really don't have a rebuttal. Not one glock, two different glocks and 3 of my ARs and my neighbors ARs and 9mm Ruger. Wolf runs fine as does everything else, but I still wouldn't store wolf for SHTF. Ammo is manufactured and as such is subject to variances that are either tightly controlled or not. The next time you do a shooting class please, please take a bunch of Tula. Then you can try to figure out what is wrong with your gun. You run the correct oil in your vehicles, not bacon grease. You don't buy a yugo and expect quality. Don't buy shitty ammo and blame the gun when the loads are underpowered, or the cases hang. If the world were ending and I only had Tula, I would shoot it. Meanwhile I will feed my gun better ammo and not worry in the least that they suck with the cheapest ammo out there. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
It makes YOUR Glock a toy......there's a difference. Yes, all firearms have failures but if you are having a consistent issue you need to investigate and determine the cause and FIX it. It's not really a fix to say, "Well, I just won't shoot that kind of ammo". It may indeed be an ammo issue but the fact is that MANY Glocks and other handguns will run fine with this "shitty ammo".....so then you need to take a hard look at the individual gun itself. I think far too many American shooters are used to unlimited quantities of spare parts, excellent magazines, high end brass cased ammo that is only a phone call and overnite UPS away.....It doesn't work that way in the rest of the world and I seriously believe it will not always continue to be that way here- anyone who is paying attention can see the beginnings of this now. Again, I completed a carbine class with John Farnham this last weekend using a parts gun AR15 that I built at my kitchen table with shit from my spares and take offs' pile with help from my 11 and 13 year old. I ran it with TCW steel cased ammo and USGI aluminum mags and it never stuttered despite the fact that it only had about 30 rounds on it when I showed up at class- When we were talking about what we had brought to shoot I made it clear "I'm doing everything today that you're NOT SUPPOSED TO DO" and everyone laughed- I also had a well vetted spare rifle just in case it did shit all over itself. Why was I willing to do this? Because I'm a certified and trained Rock River armorer and while the parts were all mixmaster, they were excellent quality parts that I had inspected. I've attended probably a dozen carbine courses and I know what it takes to make a rifle run under those kinds of conditions- even with less than stellar ammo etc.... and if a gun won't....I get rid of the damn thing. If you honestly believe there is no such thing as crappy inconsistent ammo I really don't have a rebuttal. Not one glock, two different glocks and 3 of my ARs and my neighbors ARs and 9mm Ruger. Wolf runs fine as does everything else, but I still wouldn't store wolf for SHTF. Ammo is manufactured and as such is subject to variances that are either tightly controlled or not. The next time you do a shooting class please, please take a bunch of Tula. Then you can try to figure out what is wrong with your gun. You run the correct oil in your vehicles, not bacon grease. You don't buy a yugo and expect quality. Don't buy shitty ammo and blame the gun when the loads are underpowered, or the cases hang. If the world were ending and I only had Tula, I would shoot it. Meanwhile I will feed my gun better ammo and not worry in the least that they suck with the cheapest ammo out there. I say in the first post that there is bad ammo but you have to ask yourself if it REALLY is the ammo. You add information that it will not run several other guns, then yea, it probably IS the ammo. You got some bad rounds, not all TULA is that bad though. As far as running the "correct oil" that's exactly my point, as Americans we have this idea that everything can only be ONE WAY and that somehow that's fine. That IS fine....until you CAN'T DO IT THAT WAY but still have a problem you need to solve....then what do you do? Again, if you have a "combat rifle" that cannot be made to run with DECENT steel cased ammo- it's NOT A COMBAT rifle. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It makes YOUR Glock a toy......there's a difference. Yes, all firearms have failures but if you are having a consistent issue you need to investigate and determine the cause and FIX it. It's not really a fix to say, "Well, I just won't shoot that kind of ammo". It may indeed be an ammo issue but the fact is that MANY Glocks and other handguns will run fine with this "shitty ammo".....so then you need to take a hard look at the individual gun itself. I think far too many American shooters are used to unlimited quantities of spare parts, excellent magazines, high end brass cased ammo that is only a phone call and overnite UPS away.....It doesn't work that way in the rest of the world and I seriously believe it will not always continue to be that way here- anyone who is paying attention can see the beginnings of this now. Again, I completed a carbine class with John Farnham this last weekend using a parts gun AR15 that I built at my kitchen table with shit from my spares and take offs' pile with help from my 11 and 13 year old. I ran it with TCW steel cased ammo and USGI aluminum mags and it never stuttered despite the fact that it only had about 30 rounds on it when I showed up at class- When we were talking about what we had brought to shoot I made it clear "I'm doing everything today that you're NOT SUPPOSED TO DO" and everyone laughed- I also had a well vetted spare rifle just in case it did shit all over itself. Why was I willing to do this? Because I'm a certified and trained Rock River armorer and while the parts were all mixmaster, they were excellent quality parts that I had inspected. I've attended probably a dozen carbine courses and I know what it takes to make a rifle run under those kinds of conditions- even with less than stellar ammo etc.... and if a gun won't....I get rid of the damn thing. If you honestly believe there is no such thing as crappy inconsistent ammo I really don't have a rebuttal. Not one glock, two different glocks and 3 of my ARs and my neighbors ARs and 9mm Ruger. Wolf runs fine as does everything else, but I still wouldn't store wolf for SHTF. Ammo is manufactured and as such is subject to variances that are either tightly controlled or not. The next time you do a shooting class please, please take a bunch of Tula. Then you can try to figure out what is wrong with your gun. You run the correct oil in your vehicles, not bacon grease. You don't buy a yugo and expect quality. Don't buy shitty ammo and blame the gun when the loads are underpowered, or the cases hang. If the world were ending and I only had Tula, I would shoot it. Meanwhile I will feed my gun better ammo and not worry in the least that they suck with the cheapest ammo out there. I say in the first post that there is bad ammo but you have to ask yourself if it REALLY is the ammo. You add information that it will not run several other guns, then yea, it probably IS the ammo. You got some bad rounds, not all TULA is that bad though. As far as running the "correct oil" that's exactly my point, as Americans we have this idea that everything can only be ONE WAY and that somehow that's fine. That IS fine....until you CAN'T DO IT THAT WAY but still have a problem you need to solve....then what do you do? Again, if you have a "combat rifle" that cannot be made to run with DECENT steel cased ammo- it's NOT A COMBAT rifle. In regards to TULA ammo if out of 100 rounds I have more failures than close to 80,000 rounds of other 5.56/.223 rounds combined then I would say it pretty well sucks and is not worth my time at all,. In regards to my weapon being a safe queen, if a rifle shoots 99.62% of the time is junk to you then send me all your junk because I may think its awesome. I shoot and stock quality ammo because I can and I care about it. I am willing to front the money for a improved rate of success. If in the future I am forced into garbage ammo, then so be it, I know my gun will shoot it, but I know it won't shoot it as well as the good stuff. |
|
In regards to TULA ammo if out of 100 rounds I have more failures than close to 80,000 rounds of other 5.56/.223 rounds combined then I would say it pretty well sucks and is not worth my time at all,. In regards to my weapon being a safe queen, if a rifle shoots 99.62% of the time is junk to you then send me all your junk because I may think its awesome. I shoot and stock quality ammo because I can and I care about it. I am willing to front the money for a improved rate of success. If in the future I am forced into garbage ammo, then so be it, I know my gun will shoot it, but I know it won't shoot it as well as the good stuff.
As I said, all weapons can fail- hell, I've seen the Space Shuttle turn into a bottle rocket twice in my lifetime and I'm guessing that it cost a little more than most AR's, but if you have a consistent failure with decent ammo then you have a problem. Do you have a LIFETIME supply of "quality ammo" stocked away? If not, then the time may come when you are forced to shoot "garbage ammo"....would you rather have a gun that will then run it AND good ammo or a gun that only runs good ammo? There is no reason it needs to be an either or thing.....You can choose to ignore it or you can fix it, if it can't be fixed then the gun should go away, that's my opinion. |
|
Well I guess I could use corigan's information another way...bad mags and unreliablwe ammo would increase the number of failure drills. Good for training. Blaming the riffle for powder that was never loaded in the case, or a case that breaks....now that is just
|
|
Quoted:
Well I guess I could use corigan's information another way...bad mags and unreliablwe ammo would increase the number of failure drills. Good for training. Blaming the riffle for powder that was never loaded in the case, or a case that breaks....now that is just[img]http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/smiley_freak.gif[/img][img]http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/smiley_freak.gif[/img][img]http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/smiley_freak.gif[/img][img]http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/smiley_freak.gif[/img][img]http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/smiley_freak.gif[/img] I never said that. What I said was that yes, it COULD be bad ammo- I acknowledge that bad ammo does indeed exist but just because ammo isn't brass cased M193 or MK 262 doesn't mean it's BAD AMMO and if that is all that your rifle will run on it's a piece of shit. I maintain that if your rifle will not reliably feed decent, steel cased ammo, that your rifle is not a combat grade rifle. Further, he never says in his first post on the subject that the USGI mags were BAD––- ONLY that they were USGI- which is what the damn gun was designed around. IF you have a rifle that will not reliably feed with decent USGI mags- it's a piece of shit that will get you killed if you ever need it, that simple. |
|
Quoted: I bought my S&W M&P 15 in 2008 and I'm willing to bet all kinds of money more than 25,000 rounds have been through it. By the books(yes I keep a record since I'm a nerd.) Parts I have replaced every 5000 rounds or so... Firing pin, firing pin retaining pin, gas rings, charging handle latch roll pin. At 10,000 rounds... Buffer spring, cam pin, extractor, extractor spring and rubber grommet. Also at the 10,000 mark I replaced the Smith trigger with a timney 4.5 pound. At 20,000 rounds I replaced the buffer, removed and replaced the castle nut, since the old one started to move. I should hit 30,000 rounds this summer. The trigger now has at least 15,000 live fire pulls on it and still feels great, so props to timney. Failures as follows... numbers over five hundred rounded down to the nearest 100th. 214 USGI magazine related failures from a pool of 60 different mags over 5000 rounds 98 H&K magazine related failures from a pool of 10 mags over 5,000 rounds 11 PMAG magazine related failures from a pool of 9 mags over 15,000 rounds Tula ammo out of 100 rounds 27 FTE in mild heat 3 broken cases with no heat 6 Non mag related FTF 8 hang fires 3 fail to fire Remington UMC 55 grain FMJ out of 15,000 rounds 143 FTE in high heat 57 broken cases in high heat 9 fail to fire XM855 over 10,000 rounds 23 FTE in high heat 1 broken case in mild heat 3 fail to fire Failures organic to the weapon aren't frequent enough to be tracked. I was issued a Colt by the Army and fired close to 30,000 rounds out of it. It was brand new when I got it, and had very very few issues other than magazines, which seemed high due to USGI mags, also note I never used PMAGs with it.. Just keep in mind the colt went through the same number of rounds in 15 months as I have put through the smith in 4 years. I must note that one of the issues with the Colt was a bolt failure at the cam pin hole when the rifle had less than a hundred rounds through it, but the chances of that happening are about like winning the lottery and have never seen that with any AR platform before or since. Other ARs have come and gone, but the S&W is here to stay. Hundreds of thousands of them have been made and mine seems to work pretty darn well. thanks for that awesome post. |
| Its a good platform. Instead of buying a new, untested platform try upgrading the normally overlooked parts. New Bravo Company BCG. new timiney trigger group, H-buffer. these upgrades or similar ones make a good platform great. Remember, all platforms will fail eventually, have spares. then spend the leftover $1000.00 on food, water, and shelter. |
|
Quoted:
at those who did not read and comprehend corrigan's first post.
Bad ammo = gun's fault
Bad magazine = gun's fault
Good posts corrigan Thank you for sharing Quoted:
Quoted:
Corigan good record keeping but lots and lots of failures yet you still recommend the S&W? Yes I would. Total failures equal 1.88% of rounds fired. If I shoot tula ammo out of USGI mags the failure rate goes over 50%, but if I use M855 with PMAGS the failure rate drops to .38%. So needless to say I have traded out all my mags for PMAGS, and all of my ammo for M855, since using this means for me that if I pull the trigger there is a 99.62% chance the gun will go all bang and such. I can live with a 99.62% success rate. I have so few failures organic to the weapon itself (0.01% at 10,000 rounds or so) I don't even track it any more. Attaching analytical data to weapons and gear can be eye opening and pretty surprising, and a little disheartening at first. I can have my opinions all I want but if I can't get a M1A to go bang more than 94% of the time, then its for sale. I've also given up Fals and AKs over unacceptable failure rates. I also have friends who track data on their weapons, and the failure rates so far don't have me shopping for a ACR, SCAR, or piston AR at this time. Though they seem like pretty good guns I haven't felt the need to spend 2000 plus dollars on a ACR with a almost 1% failure rate to replace my beat up S&W with a .38% failure rate. However note that the failure rate on these weapons is dropping as time goes on, but nonetheless still higher than my about worn out S&W. I don't keep deatiled record but I do use Pmags, USGI mags and I shoot wolf ammo . I can tell you how many times I have had any issues 0. If I had as many failures as corrigan I would start replacing part or use it as a parts gun. Just my .02
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
at those who did not read and comprehend corrigan's first post.
Bad ammo = gun's fault
Bad magazine = gun's fault
Good posts corrigan Thank you for sharing Quoted:
Quoted:
Corigan good record keeping but lots and lots of failures yet you still recommend the S&W? Yes I would. Total failures equal 1.88% of rounds fired. If I shoot tula ammo out of USGI mags the failure rate goes over 50%, but if I use M855 with PMAGS the failure rate drops to .38%. So needless to say I have traded out all my mags for PMAGS, and all of my ammo for M855, since using this means for me that if I pull the trigger there is a 99.62% chance the gun will go all bang and such. I can live with a 99.62% success rate. I have so few failures organic to the weapon itself (0.01% at 10,000 rounds or so) I don't even track it any more. Attaching analytical data to weapons and gear can be eye opening and pretty surprising, and a little disheartening at first. I can have my opinions all I want but if I can't get a M1A to go bang more than 94% of the time, then its for sale. I've also given up Fals and AKs over unacceptable failure rates. I also have friends who track data on their weapons, and the failure rates so far don't have me shopping for a ACR, SCAR, or piston AR at this time. Though they seem like pretty good guns I haven't felt the need to spend 2000 plus dollars on a ACR with a almost 1% failure rate to replace my beat up S&W with a .38% failure rate. However note that the failure rate on these weapons is dropping as time goes on, but nonetheless still higher than my about worn out S&W. I don't keep deatiled record but I do use Pmags, USGI mags and I shoot wolf ammo . I can tell you how many times I have had any issues 0. If I had as many failures as corrigan I would start replacing part or use it as a parts gun. Just my .02
Did you miss the part where he is closing in on 30,000 rounds. I am truly amazed that you have an AR that has fired 30,000 rounds with no failures. I have certainly had failures with all of my issued weapons(ages ago) and with my personal weapons using Tula ammo. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
at those who did not read and comprehend corrigan's first post.
Bad ammo = gun's fault
Bad magazine = gun's fault
Good posts corrigan Thank you for sharing Quoted:
Quoted:
Corigan good record keeping but lots and lots of failures yet you still recommend the S&W? Yes I would. Total failures equal 1.88% of rounds fired. If I shoot tula ammo out of USGI mags the failure rate goes over 50%, but if I use M855 with PMAGS the failure rate drops to .38%. So needless to say I have traded out all my mags for PMAGS, and all of my ammo for M855, since using this means for me that if I pull the trigger there is a 99.62% chance the gun will go all bang and such. I can live with a 99.62% success rate. I have so few failures organic to the weapon itself (0.01% at 10,000 rounds or so) I don't even track it any more. Attaching analytical data to weapons and gear can be eye opening and pretty surprising, and a little disheartening at first. I can have my opinions all I want but if I can't get a M1A to go bang more than 94% of the time, then its for sale. I've also given up Fals and AKs over unacceptable failure rates. I also have friends who track data on their weapons, and the failure rates so far don't have me shopping for a ACR, SCAR, or piston AR at this time. Though they seem like pretty good guns I haven't felt the need to spend 2000 plus dollars on a ACR with a almost 1% failure rate to replace my beat up S&W with a .38% failure rate. However note that the failure rate on these weapons is dropping as time goes on, but nonetheless still higher than my about worn out S&W. I don't keep deatiled record but I do use Pmags, USGI mags and I shoot wolf ammo . I can tell you how many times I have had any issues 0. If I had as many failures as corrigan I would start replacing part or use it as a parts gun. Just my .02
Did you miss the part where he is closing in on 30,000 rounds. I am truly amazed that you have an AR that has fired 30,000 rounds with no failures. I have certainly had failures with all of my issued weapons(ages ago) and with my personal weapons using Tula ammo. I have 2 ARs neither have 30k on them but they do have 1000s of rounds fired. With 0.00 issues. And I am certain I am not alone . BTW what brand of AR15 do you own? |