[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Night vision..... (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 2/29/2012 5:42:28 PM EDT
|
Guys, I know I am an admitted gear whore, but I recently picked up some night vision (PVS-14 and a MUM). I hate to use this horrible line, but what a game changer! I just got an IR laser on one of the AR's tonight. Holly crap it's like cheating! I'll be using the gear for keeping the 'yote population in check at the BOL, but the survival advantages of this gear is off the chart! I've got a couple more IR lasers coming and some more Surefire Vampire dual mode lights coming. The first time you walk around the house at night with gen 3 NV is a real eye opener! Anyway, a couple of gratuitous pics of the new gear....
Helmet setup (Ops-Core FAST w/Rhino) and NODs (Pinnacle Night Enforcer and MUM) 
CMMG/Colt with ACOG and VITAL-2 IR laser/illuminator 
CMMG/LMT with Eotech/Surefire Vampire 
ETA - The VITAL was properly removed from government inventory. Not stolen. I have the paperwork to back it up. Just want to clear the air..... |
|
I cannot argue with the cool factor at all, and having used the good stuff, I know what a game changer it can be.
The problem is it would take me half a lifetime to afford the good stuff, and I don't have that long left, LOL. I can't bring myself to see the value in the cheap stuff, I really wonder, is Gen 1 or 1.5 actually worth having for our SF type needs? |
|
" .....Gen 1 or 1.5 actually worth having for our SF type needs?"
NO. Cry once. Its worth it even if you have to stretch. Take your glasses that you got 3 or 4 prescriptions ago. Put them on. That is Gen 2 and below. (newer ones being closer to Gen 2). Then put on your current glasses in the daylight or full lit room. That is GEN 3. I just got a Gen 3 PSV-14. It hurt me to make that buy, but OMG is it worth it. I just got the monical so far but even hand held its a game changer. My thinking was that gold and silver fluctuate so much that its not a good investment for me. (investment, not fall back stash for a crash) NV is NOT getting any cheaper so I'm treating it as an investment. It does not age when not in use, 10K + hours of use (my lifetime +), and can be used with a laser or helmet mounted for firearm use. Its dark for anywhere from 25 to 50% of the day depending on the time of the year and where you live. If I told you that you could only use your weak arm for that amount of time do you think you would buy something to compensate somehow? NOT preaching, just presenting my logic for purchasing. |
|
Quoted:
Thanks for your honest opinion.. I didn't want to jack the OP's thread. The truth is the truth, I can't swing it now...maybe later. I hope so. hey, like anything with prepping....you can't do it all at once. Start your cookie jar now and save for it. My opinion is to not to settle for a lower GEN. Wait till you can afford the good stuff. Unfortunately, this is not like a generator or solar kit where you can purchase a little bit and build up from there. What I've seen is that if you get a Gen 1 or 2 its hard to trade up and get all your value back. I'm just hoping you don't waste your money which will hold you back from Gen 3 or better (in the future) or something else you need. |
|
I have about $800 bucks in the "jar" labeled NVG.
I am not putting much in there these days, my son is fighting for full custody of his daughter, my granddaughter. He can't afford it, just out of the military and finished school on the GI bill, has a job but not one that will pay an attorney. I will sell this house and land before I let him lose this battle. and that is far more personal info than I have ever put out here. compuvette that is sweet stuff indeed, congrats, enjoy, and my apologies... |
|
Quoted:
I have about $800 bucks in the "jar" labeled NVG. I am not putting much in there these days, my son is fighting for full custody of his daughter, my granddaughter. He can't afford it, just out of the military and finished school on the GI bill, has a job but not one that will pay an attorney. I will sell this house and land before I let him lose this battle. and that is far more personal info than I have ever put out here. compuvette that is sweet stuff indeed, congrats, enjoy, and my apologies... My public apology. Not trying to force you and just expressing my opinion. You priorities are correct in this instance in my opinion! |
|
Congrats really nice set up you have.
Couple questions if you dont mind. What are the pros and cons of helmet mounted vs rifle mounted NV? Guessing the laser is needed due to not being able to use a normal sight picture? Did I read that right you have 2 different units? Which do you prefer? |
| my first tour the unit i supported would drop us off at various parts in the city at night and 2 man teams would seach the area for things (badguys, IEDs, ambushes weapon caches etc) meeting at a central point. we would get picked up and go back to base. walking around a hostile town at night with NVGs is a hell of an experience and yeah, they are worth their weight in gold |
|
My brother and I made the leap this winter with 2 new PVS 14s, wilcox, ach and M952v.
I had only played around with gen 1 stuff. The 14 is simply amazing. We haven't settled on lasers yet. What I "want" is not in the budget right now, but I only want to cry once. |
|
Quoted:
Congrats really nice set up you have. Couple questions if you dont mind. What are the pros and cons of helmet mounted vs rifle mounted NV? Guessing the laser is needed due to not being able to use a normal sight picture? Did I read that right you have 2 different units? Which do you prefer? Thanks! There are a lot of pros to helmet mounting the NOD. Your SA is much better as everywhere you turn your head you can see. Also, you don't have to point your weapon at something to see it. With the PVS and MUM, they can be weapon mounted, but it is possible to damage your tube through recoil. They are an expensive piece of kit and I'd rather not risk that. You can kinda use an Eotech/Aimpoint with a helmet mounted NOD, but it's not very easy. The IR laser makes it a piece of cake. Normally I'm not a laser fan, but for NV use it's a no-brainer. Yes, I have a PVS-14 and a MUM Mini-14. They both have their ups and downs. The big plus for the MUM when it comes to the helmet is that it is lighter. 9oz vs. 12oz. Doesn't sound like much but when it's hanging off the front of your head it does make a difference. The other big plus on the MUM is that with the included adapter it will use CR123's and AA's. The PVS will only use AA's. The PVS-14 being the industry standard has the big advantage of every accessory being made for it. Mounts, adapters, you name it. Harder to find gear to fit the MUM. Plus, in my case, my PVS is an ITT Pinnacle Night Enforcer with the Pinnacle thin-film tube. The MUM has an ITT gen 3 tube as well, but it is standard. It is a hand-select tube so it's pretty darn good, but the Pinnacle is a little better. I bought the MUM first as the price was right and the situation presented itself. After getting it and seeing what it would do, I had to have another (two is one....). Well, the PVS popped up at a decent price so I said what the heck. They both came with J-arms and will fit my Rhino mount on the helmet so I can use either one. I do have a weapon mount that came with the MUM so I could slap that one on a rifle behind and Eotech and then use the PVS for helmet mount if for some reason I didn't want to use a laser (no IR emissions that way). Obviously, anybody with NV is gonna see that laser or any other IR emitter like a freaking lighthouse. On the whole Gen 1-2 stuff. I also have a PVS-4 that needs a new tube. A PVS-4 is a heck of a good Gen 2 NVD. I plan on getting mine back in commission as soon as I recover from all this spending...... The Gen2SHP stuff is pretty decent as well. There is a pretty big step down from Gen 3 to standard gen 2 so I would say save your money and try to get a gen 2 SHP. I have seen decent PVS-14's with older tech gen 3 tubes for $2k though and that wouldn't be a bad way to go either. |
|
Quoted:
Obviously, anybody with NV is gonna see that laser or any other IR emitter like a freaking lighthouse. Yep. And therein lies the problem, at least for me, of not having weapon mounted NV capabilities. If all you are using is headgear, you essentially have to rely on IR lasers, which can put a big crosshair on your back. The problem doesn't exist if you mount NV on your weapon, use a NV compatible sight, and don't use the IR illuminators/lasers. IR lasers will work great for non-SHTF applications like varmint/pig hunting, but in true SHTF situation, it could make you very vulnerable. In my view, NV is becoming increasingly common. Heck, they even make cheap kids toys with low-grade NV technology. In other words, the risks associated with using IR illuminators/lasers increase every day as more NV products enter the stream of commerce. Regardless, love your gear and set up. Looks awesome! |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Obviously, anybody with NV is gonna see that laser or any other IR emitter like a freaking lighthouse. Yep. And therein lies the problem, at least for me, of not having weapon mounted NV capabilities. If all you are using is headgear, you essentially have to rely on IR lasers, which can put a big crosshair on your back. The problem doesn't exist if you mount NV on your weapon, use a NV compatible sight, and don't use the IR illuminators/lasers. IR lasers will work great for non-SHTF applications like varmint/pig hunting, but in true SHTF situation, it could make you very vulnerable. In my view, NV is becoming increasingly common. Heck, they even make cheap kids toys with low-grade NV technology. In other words, the risks associated with using IR illuminators/lasers increase every day as more NV products enter the stream of commerce. Regardless, love your gear and set up. Looks awesome! Yep, on all points. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Obviously, anybody with NV is gonna see that laser or any other IR emitter like a freaking lighthouse. Yep. And therein lies the problem, at least for me, of not having weapon mounted NV capabilities. If all you are using is headgear, you essentially have to rely on IR lasers, which can put a big crosshair on your back. The problem doesn't exist if you mount NV on your weapon, use a NV compatible sight, and don't use the IR illuminators/lasers. IR lasers will work great for non-SHTF applications like varmint/pig hunting, but in true SHTF situation, it could make you very vulnerable. In my view, NV is becoming increasingly common. Heck, they even make cheap kids toys with low-grade NV technology. In other words, the risks associated with using IR illuminators/lasers increase every day as more NV products enter the stream of commerce. Regardless, love your gear and set up. Looks awesome! I somewhat agree.... to a point. While NV is becoming more mainstream, it's still relatively rare. The children's toy NV doesn't work worth a damn..and it's a little silly to assume that people would be walking around at night with an "Eyeclops" type setup and manage to get the drop on an actual night vision optic of any quality. The toys require VAST amounts of IR light to see, even when ambient light is fairly high. On most of them, you can't even turn off the giant circle of IR led's that surrounds the lens. That would be a shining beacon on the horizon for anyone with a PVS-14. And so long as there isn't a ton of dust in the air, IR lasers usually just leave a nice little dot, not a big visible laser that leads back to the owner. IMHO, part of using night vision is learning when to utilize things like IR lasers and IR illuminators. Walking around with either on all the time is a bad idea, but used correctly you'd have a massive advantage over even the people rocking out the $100 NV toys. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Obviously, anybody with NV is gonna see that laser or any other IR emitter like a freaking lighthouse. Yep. And therein lies the problem, at least for me, of not having weapon mounted NV capabilities. If all you are using is headgear, you essentially have to rely on IR lasers, which can put a big crosshair on your back. The problem doesn't exist if you mount NV on your weapon, use a NV compatible sight, and don't use the IR illuminators/lasers. IR lasers will work great for non-SHTF applications like varmint/pig hunting, but in true SHTF situation, it could make you very vulnerable. In my view, NV is becoming increasingly common. Heck, they even make cheap kids toys with low-grade NV technology. In other words, the risks associated with using IR illuminators/lasers increase every day as more NV products enter the stream of commerce. Regardless, love your gear and set up. Looks awesome! I somewhat agree.... to a point. While NV is becoming more mainstream, it's still relatively rare. The children's toy NV doesn't work worth a damn..and it's a little silly to assume that people would be walking around at night with an "Eyeclops" type setup and manage to get the drop on an actual night vision optic of any quality. The toys require VAST amounts of IR light to see, even when ambient light is fairly high. On most of them, you can't even turn off the giant circle of IR led's that surrounds the lens. That would be a shining beacon on the horizon for anyone with a PVS-14. And so long as there isn't a ton of dust in the air, IR lasers usually just leave a nice little dot, not a big visible laser that leads back to the owner. IMHO, part of using night vision is learning when to utilize things like IR lasers and IR illuminators. Walking around with either on all the time is a bad idea, but used correctly you'd have a massive advantage over even the people rocking out the $100 NV toys. Have you looked at the biz end of an IR laser from a distance with NV? Even Gen 1? |
|
Quoted:
NV is NOT getting any cheaper Is that correct? I don't own any NV gear and I haven't been paying that close attention, but I thought the $3-4K range for a top end new PVS-14 from a reputable vendor like TNVC actually was cheaper than just a few years ago. It's on my shopping list after the NFA stable is comfortably full ... Thermal is sure dropping in price rapidly. |
|
Okay, I’m throwing this out there, maybe not the right thread and it should land in the Night Vision part of ARFCOM, but I can’t afford a PVS14, at around $1200 and up, it ain’t going to happen.
So, where can someone with a mid-budget get into the NV without breaking the bank? I’ve looked at SightMark’s stuff around $300 for a weapon mounted device. But not 100% sure of the quality compared to a PVS14. Maybe this is better, then nothing? (I’m trying to find the best of both worlds something that be mounted on a weapon and on a J-ARM) 
|
|
Quoted:
Okay, I’m throwing this out there, maybe not the right thread and it should land in the Night Vision part of ARFCOM, but I can’t afford a PVS14, at around $1200 and up, it ain’t going to happen. So, where can someone with a mid-budget get into the NV without breaking the bank? I’ve looked at SightMark’s stuff around $300 for a weapon mounted device. But not 100% sure of the quality compared to a PVS14. Maybe this is better, then nothing? (I’m trying to find the best of both worlds something that be mounted on a weapon and on a J-ARM) http://www.night-vision-gear.com/img/p/170-280-thickbox.jpg A friend of mine has one of those.....if you don't see yourself ever going for a gen3....it's not bad.....be warned...the green glow is catchy.....and it spreads. That site mark isn't bad...but the resolution is so so at best...and the effective range is the same. I wouldn't beat it around too much.....but for general observation of fields and a garden and the like....so be it. you will have an advantage though....over someone w/o NV. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Obviously, anybody with NV is gonna see that laser or any other IR emitter like a freaking lighthouse. Yep. And therein lies the problem, at least for me, of not having weapon mounted NV capabilities. If all you are using is headgear, you essentially have to rely on IR lasers, which can put a big crosshair on your back. The problem doesn't exist if you mount NV on your weapon, use a NV compatible sight, and don't use the IR illuminators/lasers. IR lasers will work great for non-SHTF applications like varmint/pig hunting, but in true SHTF situation, it could make you very vulnerable. In my view, NV is becoming increasingly common. Heck, they even make cheap kids toys with low-grade NV technology. In other words, the risks associated with using IR illuminators/lasers increase every day as more NV products enter the stream of commerce. Regardless, love your gear and set up. Looks awesome! I somewhat agree.... to a point. While NV is becoming more mainstream, it's still relatively rare. The children's toy NV doesn't work worth a damn..and it's a little silly to assume that people would be walking around at night with an "Eyeclops" type setup and manage to get the drop on an actual night vision optic of any quality. The toys require VAST amounts of IR light to see, even when ambient light is fairly high. On most of them, you can't even turn off the giant circle of IR led's that surrounds the lens. That would be a shining beacon on the horizon for anyone with a PVS-14. And so long as there isn't a ton of dust in the air, IR lasers usually just leave a nice little dot, not a big visible laser that leads back to the owner. IMHO, part of using night vision is learning when to utilize things like IR lasers and IR illuminators. Walking around with either on all the time is a bad idea, but used correctly you'd have a massive advantage over even the people rocking out the $100 NV toys. Hold off until after the class |
|
Quoted:
I think this technology is going to really take off. These scopes have been getting excellent reviews, never seen one for myself though. Pulsar DigiSight N550 Digital Night Vision Rifle Scope Overall review (on the NV forum) is that the digital stuff is sub-gen 1 right now. It'll get better, but it's pretty far below even gen 2. |
|
To those of you with current autogated NVG, could you answer a question? If your device is suddenly washed out by a bright, unexpected light source, how long does it take to reset/recover?
Years ago my company participated in a nighttime paintball game of all things, as a corporate team building exercise. Long story short, one of the guys at the opposing company bragged long and loud that he was going to wipe the floor with us, because he had some sort of helmet mounted night vision device. This was four or five years ago, so I'm sure it wasn't state of the art. Not wanting to lose, I brought one of the speedlights for my digital SLR, and was able to render his NVG useless by strobing him when once got close to our flag. Is the new generation of NVG immune to that sort of thing, or could it still serve as a poor mans countermeasure? I remember that he was PISSED, and said something about damaging his tube(?), if that gives someone an indication of what vintage equipment he had. ETA: We still got creamed, but that's a whole different topic... Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
|
Quoted:
To those of you with current autogated NVG, could you answer a question? If your device is suddenly washed out by a bright, unexpected light source, how long does it take to reset/recover? Years ago my company participated in a nighttime paintball game of all things, as a corporate team building exercise. Long story short, one of the guys at the opposing company bragged long and loud that he was going to wipe the floor with us, because he had some sort of helmet mounted night vision device. This was four or five years ago, so I'm sure it wasn't state of the art. Not wanting to lose, I brought one of the speedlights for my digital SLR, and was able to render his NVG useless by strobing him when once got close to our flag. Is the new generation of NVG immune to that sort of thing, or could it still serve as a poor mans countermeasure? I remember that he was PISSED, and said something about damaging his tube(?), if that gives someone an indication of what vintage equipment he had. ETA: We still got creamed, but that's a whole different topic... Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I don't know about a strobe, but they "gate" pretty fast. A car coming around a corner is no problem. I know the military uses super-bright ir lights pointing out from the perimeter for NOD defense for known locations |
|
Quoted:
" .....Gen 1 or 1.5 actually worth having for our SF type needs?" NO. Cry once. Its worth it even if you have to stretch. Take your glasses that you got 3 or 4 prescriptions ago. Put them on. That is Gen 2 and below. (newer ones being closer to Gen 2). Then put on your current glasses in the daylight or full lit room. That is GEN 3. I just got a Gen 3 PSV-14. It hurt me to make that buy, but OMG is it worth it. I just got the monical so far but even hand held its a game changer. My thinking was that gold and silver fluctuate so much that its not a good investment for me. (investment, not fall back stash for a crash) NV is NOT getting any cheaper so I'm treating it as an investment. It does not age when not in use, 10K + hours of use (my lifetime +), and can be used with a laser or helmet mounted for firearm use. Its dark for anywhere from 25 to 50% of the day depending on the time of the year and where you live. If I told you that you could only use your weak arm for that amount of time do you think you would buy something to compensate somehow? NOT preaching, just presenting my logic for purchasing. Sorry, but I disagree. Go to Wallyworld and buy the monocular for under $100. It gets you into the game while you save up for the next generation model. It works pretty well and is definitely worth the $100. |
| For the record, I just tried using an Eotech (NV mode of course) with a helmet mounted NOD. Worked just fine. No cheek weld of course, but totally useable. Obviously the laser is easier, but I could easily engage using a NOD on my helmet through a weapon mounted Eotech. I also have a M2 Aimpoint. Useable, but the Eotech worked much better. You really see the "tube" of the Aimpoint where the Eotech disappears. I also ordered two more VITAL's so I'll have three of those and a class 1 OTAL. That ought to cover my "needs". I am going to stick a VITAL on one of my 22 AR's. That with my can ought to do wonders on vermin control! |
|
Quoted:
I just googled "fastest way to spend thirty thousand dollars!" this thread popped up.....  Isn't that the truth! I would love to have that sort of discretionary income to be able to afford this stuff. I just can't bring myself to spend a minimum of 5K on night vision, lasers and lights and then have it end up sitting in my safe doing nothing. Heck, my vehicle I drive everyday only cost me $1200..... I need to win the Powerball. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
To those of you with current autogated NVG, could you answer a question? If your device is suddenly washed out by a bright, unexpected light source, how long does it take to reset/recover? Years ago my company participated in a nighttime paintball game of all things, as a corporate team building exercise. Long story short, one of the guys at the opposing company bragged long and loud that he was going to wipe the floor with us, because he had some sort of helmet mounted night vision device. This was four or five years ago, so I'm sure it wasn't state of the art. Not wanting to lose, I brought one of the speedlights for my digital SLR, and was able to render his NVG useless by strobing him when once got close to our flag. Is the new generation of NVG immune to that sort of thing, or could it still serve as a poor mans countermeasure? I remember that he was PISSED, and said something about damaging his tube(?), if that gives someone an indication of what vintage equipment he had. ETA: We still got creamed, but that's a whole different topic... Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I don't know about a strobe, but they "gate" pretty fast. A car coming around a corner is no problem. I know the military uses super-bright ir lights pointing out from the perimeter for NOD defense for known locations When I was looking at ICCDs for an optics project at work two years ago, the gating time on a laboratory-grade ICCD from Stanford Computer Optics was as low as 200 picoseconds (2 x 10^-12) (2 x 10^-10). For reference, a camera flash's xenon tube produces a flash that has about a 200 microsecond (200 x 10^-6) (2 x 10^-4) duration, so the gating time on that particular ICCD would be only 1/1,000,000th (1 x 10^-6) of the flash duration. You could post that question over in the NV forum (in the Armory) to get an answer that is specific to NV gear. There are some sharp guys there. (Edited to correct bad math) |
| I took my NV scope off of the AR it was perched on and put it on a Marlin model 60 .22 semiauto. The muzzle flash on the AR killed my night vision for at least 10-20 seconds, making any follow up shot impossible. The .22 has almost -0- muzzle flash and I can hose down anything I want to shoot. YMMV |
|
Quoted:
" .....Gen 1 or 1.5 actually worth having for our SF type needs?" NO. Cry once. Its worth it even if you have to stretch. Take your glasses that you got 3 or 4 prescriptions ago. Put them on. That is Gen 2 and below. (newer ones being closer to Gen 2). Then put on your current glasses in the daylight or full lit room. That is GEN 3. I just got a Gen 3 PSV-14. It hurt me to make that buy, but OMG is it worth it. I just got the monical so far but even hand held its a game changer. My thinking was that gold and silver fluctuate so much that its not a good investment for me. (investment, not fall back stash for a crash) NV is NOT getting any cheaper so I'm treating it as an investment. It does not age when not in use, 10K + hours of use (my lifetime +), and can be used with a laser or helmet mounted for firearm use. Its dark for anywhere from 25 to 50% of the day depending on the time of the year and where you live. If I told you that you could only use your weak arm for that amount of time do you think you would buy something to compensate somehow? NOT preaching, just presenting my logic for purchasing. i disagree.. slightly. the cheap gen 1-2 crap walmart sells is perfectly fine for scanning a relatively open area to see movement our to about 2-300 yards. you wont get details but you can see it. it ok for a hand out to a sentry that would otherwise be using his naked eyes. i wouldn't expect much more out of it though. |
|
Quoted:
I took my NV scope off of the AR it was perched on and put it on a Marlin model 60 .22 semiauto. The muzzle flash on the AR killed my night vision for at least 10-20 seconds, making any follow up shot impossible. The .22 has almost -0- muzzle flash and I can hose down anything I want to shoot. YMMV I do not have this problem. Yes, you can see the autogate kick in, but the NV is back to full amplification before the weapon is back on target. This was with a 14.5" barrel with a AAC/YHM flash hider and M855. I was using the MUM on my helmet and sighting in the IR laser. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Sorry, but I disagree. Go to Wallyworld and buy the monocular for under $100. It gets you into the game while you save up for the next generation model. It works pretty well and is definitely worth the $100. which one? I heard these are the "toy" ones to get http://www.amazon.com/Night-Vision-Infrared-Stealth-Binoculars/dp/B003AUF1XI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1331061046&sr=8-1 EDIT... FORGOT TO ADD THIS QUESTION... Does anyone have a link to that video where some guy to join this night shot and couldn't afford a PVS, so he used a toy and it worked out just fine. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Obviously, anybody with NV is gonna see that laser or any other IR emitter like a freaking lighthouse. Yep. And therein lies the problem, at least for me, of not having weapon mounted NV capabilities. If all you are using is headgear, you essentially have to rely on IR lasers, which can put a big crosshair on your back. The problem doesn't exist if you mount NV on your weapon, use a NV compatible sight, and don't use the IR illuminators/lasers. IR lasers will work great for non-SHTF applications like varmint/pig hunting, but in true SHTF situation, it could make you very vulnerable. In my view, NV is becoming increasingly common. Heck, they even make cheap kids toys with low-grade NV technology. In other words, the risks associated with using IR illuminators/lasers increase every day as more NV products enter the stream of commerce. Regardless, love your gear and set up. Looks awesome! This is fordguy sorry I messed up the quote, anyway When I first started doing precision shooting at night with a PVS 14, I was shocked when I missed my target every time. Oh, I coudl hit an e type silhouette, but not a point target. I was using an aimpoint. I learned a lesson there about a shifting focal plane between a night optic and pvs 14. So you knwo what I stick with? laser and helmet mounted. Sorry but in my experience, that is the only way to go unless you have a dedicated night scope. Yep, on all points. |