Posted: 1/12/2012 5:08:22 AM EDT
|
Hi guys...
I'm looking for a way to increase my gun handling skills. Unlike many people I don't figure that owning a gun somehow makes be safe from criminal problems. It - a firearm - isn't a talisman or voodoo charm. I can punch holes in paper targets and plink at stumps and stuff, but I figure this has little practical value since targets and stumps aren't particularly realistic. I'd like to increase my proficiency in somewhat more realistic situations so I can be somewhat more prepared should SHTF. Furthermore, I firmly beleive that practice does NOT make perfect. Practice merely makes things permanent. IF you practice the wrong thing, you get really, really good at doing things wrong.... I've looked into IDPA. I guess the theory is it is supposed to mirror practical skills. Like many shooting sports (IPSC) it seems like most (many?) shooters are primarily interested in winning the match, not in actually getting good at defensive shooting. For example, the info I've seen (you tube vids, etc) seems to imply that many shooters are shifting through the rule book, looking for every little procedural loophole and edge. I don't regard cutaway holsters, race guns, light loads, etc as being practical. My question is this: If you have participated in IDPA is there a place for the purely defensive shooter? I'm talking shooting defensive pistols (not race guns), from real everyday holsters, using real ammo (not tailor made reloads that minimize recoil and flip). Did you think that IDPA actually improved practical shooting skills? I rally could care less if I place or am competitive. The only competition I'm interested in is the unannounced competition that creeps up on you when you least expect it. For what its worth I was probably the only guy in history to shoot Dept of Civilian Marksmanship matches with a 1903 Springfield (instead of Garands, M1A's or black rifles). I'm interested in skill development, not winning by 0.07 seconds because my equipment is uber-specialized. I'm already slotted for some higher end training courses. But three or four days isn't enough to actually ingrain and reinforce the skills needed. I need some form of more realistic practice to hone and keep the needed skills. Fro |
|
I enjoy shooting IDPA. It gives me a chance to shoot and move, use cover, shoot from odd positions, and think when I shoot. Gets you out of the "square range" I.E.-standing still in a booth shooting straight ahead. There are alot of gamers that shoot our local matches, but over half the guys and gals shoot what they carry daily.
In my mind, the only person I'm there to beat is myself. And I've seen much improvement in my gun handling abilities since I started shooting IDPA. Plus, its a heck of alot of fun! |
|
I shoot in USPSA matches. I think it helps you to acquire your sights quickly and put 2 into the A zone. That can't be a bad thing, but preparing to use a pistol in a self defense situation requires additional training.
I want to try IDPA as well but there aren't as many matches around. |
|
Quoted:
Go for the practice. Not the game. +1 I compete with a bunch of buddies, and I use my daily carry gun and my daily carry holster, wearing clothes as close as possible to what I wear every day. My holster even has a thumbsnap, and I'm probably the only one there like that. When my buddies and I carpool there together, they frequently stand at the car and remove their carry pistols and holsters and put on their competition pistols and holsters at the start of the day, and reverse that process when we're all done. That just doesn't do it for me- the "practice vs game" mentality is a great way to summarize it. Quoted:
There are alot of gamers that shoot our local matches, but over half the guys and gals shoot what they carry daily. I agree- but your holster and mag setup is even more important than just what pistol you're using. I strongly suggest, if you want to treat it like practice, that you use the same ones you use every day. |
|
IDPA will help you improve your practical shooting skills, but remember it is still a game and as such, has some odd "rules". You can also shoot USPSA in production class, using a practical holster and magazine pouches, and take a practical approach to shooting the stages. Not the same as using truly concealed holsters, but it too is a game. |
|
As long as you shoot with the mindset for your training then what's to lose?
-use cover like you really would -keep adding rounds to the target if you think a shot was off until you're satisfied you got good hits. I remember my first IPSC match and watching a guy who always ran in the top 3 with his fancy skeletor holster and racegun. Nothing real or practical about it I noticed. I couldn't help but laugh inside when he turned to answer a call from his friend at the vehicle and dumped his scoped racegun in the sand just by the turning of his body. I figured I'd just avoid going to that extreme and stick with my factory colt series 80 and desantis thumbsnap holster. No I never won a match but I got better at the shoot and move part. Just as long as you don't lose sight of your goal or at least recognize if you get into the gamesmanship and equipment race that your doing it for the fun of it at that point. That said, any rounds downrange is better than sitting home on the couch with your laptop surfing arfcom GD.  Not that the OP is a GD guy, far from it.
I shoot service rifle and not many people are using full length rifles and slinging up prone like that but it does have it's uses. At last years arfcom/NYSRPA shoot at Ft. Drum I was pleasantly suprised at how well I did off hand with the carbine with normal 6/3 sights, GI trigger, and crappy fitting stock. I was around 80% on popup silhouettes at 300 meters offhand. I credit shooting offhand with the match service rifle during the summer. All rounds count for something. |
|
I go to a weekly pistol league that is IDPA based. The rules are observed but not as strictly as competitions. I was a good shot going in, but I had never practiced drawing, reloading, shooting from different forms of cover, you can learn a lot by doing it. There are two kinds of people ho do it, those who are looking for practice and thse who want to game/compete. Sometmes I get sore about not using a vest or holster with nothing more than friction retention, but I too do it for the practice. Not all things in IDPA are perfectly realistic, and fact not much, but it teaches you to think while hoting, which is as important as accuracy and handling. I personally disagree with slicing the pie while on the clock. When I played paintbal I would rather make the other guy tick his head out rather than me stick mine out.
Also you will care how you place after some short fat bald guy whips through a stage like his name was Neo, like it or not when the SHTF, that might be the guy trying to take your MRE's, and you'll want to be faster. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
|
If you do it enough, the shooting part wil get to be like whipping your shotgun after a clay, in other words recognizing quickly a good sight picture and pulling the trigger. The best thing you can do is practice drawing from concealment, (there are many different ways) to include getting your sigts on target, and reloads, you get those mechanics worked out and you're on your way to doing good. The mechanics will make or break you, ad economy of movement is king. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
|
Quoted: Go for the practice. Not the game. This. If you "win" at IDPA, you're not doing it right. IDPA was supposed to pick up where IPSC went awry and became a game. So much so that USPSA was created, which is still a game. But as soon as IDPA introduced a timer into the game, they really became just another game. EVERY time you induce a timer into the equation you will get those who want to "game" the scenario in order to "win". The silliness gets even worse when you introduce a prize table into the mix. All are good for increasing your ability to shoot accurately quickly. And they are fun. Just realize that gaming hardly ever equals good real-world tactics. Jumping out into the open in front of an array of targets versus pieing the corner and getting them one at a time, sometimes retreat really is the best course of action, etc. |
|
Just realize that gaming hardly ever equals good real-world tactics. Jumping out into the open in front of an array of targets versus pieing the corner and getting them one at a time...
The guys who make the matches near me make their scenarios reflect that- I've never seen the first and most scenarios in fact will require the second. The setups are really dependent on the hosting club... |
|
I checked out the IDPA here but it turned out to be too expensive and too structured for my tastes.
As mentioned above: if you treat it as practice, you will have more fun. I now go to the desert near my house (local range is stand and shoot only). We set up various targets and one guy will call out while the others shoot. 'ONE - move left - three - knell, head shot on two, etc'. Target stands can be setup as barriers, shoot over the hood, etc. This is a lot more random than running the IDPA course. |
|
Competition is useful too. it let me know I wasn't as good as I hought it was, and I picked up good habits by watching better shooters. One good hing I learned was to keep a running tab on shots fired, then there is no surprise reloads. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
| I've shot IDPA matches on and off for 6 or 7 years. My reason for doing so was like yours - not to win matches, but to be prepared for defensive action. In my experience, the environment depends upon the club or organizers of the matches. Where I live now, I seldom shoot because the organizers are serious competitors, and the matches are run by the book, 100%, with no "slack" given. I just don't like shooting in that environment. If you find matches near you, keep that in mind. It's one thing to have rules, it's another to have other shooters protesting that a penalty was not assessed on you properly because they are there to win at all costs - even if your scores aren't even a threat to them. I just found that to be ridiculous. My old club was less formal, and the guys that were there to win didn't complain about the rest of us who were only trying to improve for defensive purposes. I wish I could find a different club like my old one... |
|
Good thread!
You'll learn a lot your first couple IDPA events. Good place to practice gunhandling. Way better practice than the standard square range. The gamers in IDPA tend to bug me. It shouldn't, because IDPA is a game, and the gamers tend to do a lot of great work setting everything up... but it does. I just don't understand why someone would build a custom gun that is completely impractical, but qualifies under the rules... run ammo that just barely has enough powder in it to cycle their custom gun, do the "ballet dancer" shooting stance behind barricades, help set up the stages to get an extra advantage, try mind games on the competition, and spend all the time and money to do it. If I'm spending the time and money, I want to learn practical skills on practical equipment. In the end, the rest means nothing. |
| I was never faster and more accurate than when I was doing competitive drills. That said, I probably had more of a false sense of confidence than ever too. Try and balance your practice and competition. The fact that you do a ton of draws and shooting will help you. Dry fire and dry practice at home can help that as well. |
|
IDPA was founded so people could compete without having to spend 2,000$ on a pistol and gear. As long as you stay in stock service pistol you should have no problem competing with your normal carry gear. I draw from "T Shirt concealment" and it might take me a extra .5 second vs a IDPA vest. I know a lot of people laugh at the "gamer types", but their is another type of IDPA shooter. I call them the "tactical shooter" They are the ones who shoot in match's (usually very quick times with little accuracy) and then talk about how this game would get them killed on "the street". I would put money on any experienced IPDA shooter over about 90% of CCW holders, just for the simple fact that IDPA shooters actually shoot and dryfire regularly. |
| IDPA has help me a lot. It has caused me to shoot in way I have never practiced before at a shooting range and meet some good people. It has also gotten me to shoot my gun more and become more proficient as a shooter. I treat the match as real world situations. I have no interested in fancy sights to improve my time. I'm working to become a better shooter in different situations. |
|
Quoted:
Just realize that gaming hardly ever equals good real-world tactics. Jumping out into the open in front of an array of targets versus pieing the corner and getting them one at a time...
The guys who make the matches near me make their scenarios reflect that- I've never seen the first and most scenarios in fact will require the second. The setups are really dependent on the hosting club... Ditto here. Sometimes there will be 2 targets almost (or actually) touching. No one expects you to slice the pie in this case. There is a lot of contrived stuff to test skills, such as requiring weak hand only, or engaging a target from a certain side of the barricade, or starting with a downloaded (not allways by you) mag. Almost everyone shoots their carry gun or Glock 17s. I shoot a .40 compact which I know is a minor handicap, but no one cares. They will be a few guys shooting revolvers. They usually have a second division for BUGs (back up guns), thats the only place their may be gaming- a Glock supercompact is a whole hell of a lot faster then a J frame smith One time I put 4 rounds in the baracade shooting an AR weak hand only. They scored it anyway, and I got several warnings not to do that again. |
|
I shoot IDPA, but I have also taken some serious training courses. Just stay focused as to why you are there. It is hard to not get consumed by the game aspect of the competition. I like to mix it up by using my carry piece sometimes and my competition pistol others. It is surely much better than standing square to a stationary target and allows you to practice moves and actions that are forbidden at most ranges. Occasionally I like to really speed it up with my carry gun (which is a little difficult) so that I get get excited and stressed and really feel the blood pumping just so that I know the feeling of trying to perform under some kind of stress.
Have fun and let us know how it goes. |
|
Quoted:
I would put money on any experienced IPDA shooter over about 90% of CCW holders, just for the simple fact that IDPA shooters actually shoot and dryfire regularly. Yep. Some CCW holders don't even carry. They rely on "plastic protection" or just carrying their state issued card instead of a gun. Its funny when I show friends both my IDPA and handgun license cards. Most people are really impressed with the handgun license which in Texas requires a shooting test similar to the State Troopers (easy). I'm far more proud of my IDPA card. Much more of a "badass" card  
|
|
I shoot both IDPA and IPSC for many years. When I worked the range I ran both types of competitions.
There is a place for the purely defensive shooter, but it won't be in the winning spot. IDPA and IPSC both have gamers that squeeze every advantage available. IDPA requires the use of cover. Last I checked it meant 50% of your body behind cover. Go to a good shooting instructor and you will only be exposing 2-3% of your body. This will slow you down. Does it improve shooting skills? Yes, you skill should improve. You would improve far faster in a class dedicated to defensive shooting than trying to pick it up from some course of fire. Does it improve survivability on the street? Yes according to many accounts of people who actually had need to use those skills. Surviving a gun fight is not about being a better shooter than the other guy. It is about handling stress. Competitive shooters are put under stress. Good ones learn to remain calm, open up their vision, and move smoothly. I have seen the negative results from stress many times as a range officer. You ask a shooter if they are all done, they say yes, then realize that they missed a target in plain sight for all to see. I have seen the purely defensive shooters at both IDPA and IPSC. Their goal is not to win, but practice the best tactics allowable by rules/design. In most places, a match is the only way you will be allowed to do anything remotely tactical such as moving, drawing, and using cover. Not all of us have ranges that allow those sorts of activities. Luckily I have one here in AF and back home stateside. |
|
Remember (based on surface area), the head is 7% and the right and left arms are 7% each. Pretty hard to only expose 2-3%. I think our RSOs requires the waist to be completely behind the baracade, but the rule isn't applied evenly- a first time shooter, or an overweight person, or an elderly person is going to get more lattitude. The guys who show up every month are expected to get it right evey time. With one exception, new shooters are not going to win events, and they do everythign they can to encourage them to shoot the course, learn somethign and come again.
Another good sign of a club that wants to teach- They don't discourage anyone who shows up with just 2 mags- they just try to group them together. As the "leader" or what ever you want to call the RSO in charge says, Rob Latham is not going to show up at this club. |
|
Quoted:
There is a place for the purely defensive shooter, but it won't be in the winning spot. IDPA and IPSC both have gamers that squeeze every advantage available. IDPA requires the use of cover. Last I checked it meant 50% of your body behind cover. Go to a good shooting instructor and you will only be exposing 2-3% of your body. This will slow you down. Very true!! I like IDPA because I can practice proper barricade style shooting, exposing 2-3% of my body(hands/part-of-my-head on the right, a little more going to the left side) for a very brief moment. But using proper barricade technique will hurt you substantially in the IDPA "rankings". Proper barricade shooting will pay MASSIVE dividends in force-on-force or real life... because not getting shot is way better than getting shot
And in the end you fight like you trained. |