Posted: 12/9/2011 5:51:15 PM EDT
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I'm a young (around the 30 year old mark), single prepper....i've got a year of food, a year of water, guns and a smallish ammo fort (I can almost hide behind it, lol). Have 4 or 5 k rounds worth of components for 5.56; I started reloading 2 or 3 years ago.
I hunt and garden....so i have a freezer full of food (generator and stored gasoline to go with it). I am a carpenter by trade so i have a garage full of tools that I know how to use. Also co own a landscaping company, so have a ton of garden/land/etc type tools. I own a home (with 3 units), which I rent out, and live at my job (live in carpenter, historic estate). I'm letting the tenants pay the mortgage, while putting away the extra every month into a "house fund" for now (purchased home 2 years ago). The reason why I mention that, is that I know one of the first things people say to worry about is the "debt" question. The home is my only debt, no credit card debts, car loans, student loans, best buy accounts, etc etc. I have $40-$50k currently set aside....$20-25k in cash and $20-25k in mutual funds, iras, etc. Some of that is reserved for an "emergency fund" the rest is just my "nest egg" if you will. I feel like I have a lot of the bases covered....One of the things I'm looking into now is the precious metal aspect of things....of which I know next to nothing about. I suppose my question is....what would be a prudent thing to do, in terms of buying precious metals, with perhaps $10-$15k......? From my limited reading, my impression is that I should buy numismatic american gold coins. Something lightly circulated, but not "mint" as to not pay the "premium" for coin collector quality items. My impression is that I should buy most of it in "wealth preserving gold" while also purchasing some "silver for trade". If that's not what I should do, tell me what I should do. Should I buy from APMEX or local dealers, pawn shops, etc? I know I missed the boat on the "cheap" gold from 10 years ago...but I'd like to start now. I'd like to preserve some of what I have if everything goes to shit like it probably is going to. I want to learn, tell me what you've done and why, and what you would do if you were me and why..... Thank you all for your replies....I ask here, because I trust here. I don't ever say very much....but I lurk. I've been watching....listening....and learning from this place for a long time. (see join date...  ) So thank you in advance!
-Marty |
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Honestly I agree, buy local and pay cash. Buy bullion.. you dont need coins. I stay away from anything "numismatic" American eagles are ok to buy.. but just get the normal run of the mill ones.. you dont need them graded and cased. You are buying this stuff for metal value.. collector value means nothing in a real barter SHTF situation. Most of my gold is either American eagles or just bars. Small bars from one gram up to one ounce. |
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Quoted: Honestly I agree, buy local and pay cash. Buy bullion.. you dont need coins. I stay away from anything "numismatic" American eagles are ok to buy.. but just get the normal run of the mill ones.. you dont need them graded and cased. You are buying this stuff for metal value.. collector value means nothing in a real barter SHTF situation. Most of my gold is either American eagles or just bars. Small bars from one gram up to one ounce. I agree with the above OP. Stay away from numismatics in general for SHTF (unless you just want to be a rare coin collector). You don't want to be a collector for trading at that time IMO. If you want to own physical buillion then gold/silver bars would be a better value but you also have to protect them and you'll have to also think about that. I own a small amount of hard PMs but I also trade quite a bit on paper (stocks/futures etc) and those could also be dangerous too in a SJHTF situation (goverment confiscation of Wall St. whatever). I consider them insurance and nothing more. In fact if they go up in value, I get depressed because it means what we all believe could possibly happen actually is and equities will probably be going down when they go up. And it isn't what we want it to be. For a 30 y/o it sounds like you are already well on the right track IMO. So I wouldn't sweat it too much. Go ahead and dip a little into both markets (slowly) and don't try to get rich from it. Just put a little bit aside just in case kind of thing. |
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I suggest that you do not mail order. Doing so establishes a paper trail, which may not be in your best interests.
Check phone books and internet search for local precious metals dealers. Pawn shops, coin stores etc. Call and check on prices. Tell them you want bullion, not investment coins. Check the spot price for the day. You'll find that most are pretty close. Some dealers will be stupid high, others within a decent margin over spot. Grab just under $10,000 (never 10K or more - it triggers required reporting on the transaction). Walk in, tell them you want so many ounces. Many dealers will ask you to return in a couple hours. Most don't want to keep a ton of precious metals actually on hand, and so will make a trip to the offsite secur storage for your order. Return at the appointed time and pay cash for your order. Maple leafs, Eagles, or Kuggerands all have recognized and established value as reliable units of precious metals. It is cheaper to buy full ounces than to frog around with halves and quarters and tenths (which end up costing way over spot). I dunno where you are in NY but if its near syracuse, there is a PM dealer in Fayetteville that usually does well. |
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From my limited reading, my impression is that I should buy numismatic american gold coins. Something lightly circulated, but not "mint" as to not pay the "premium" for coin collector quality items. My impression is that I should buy most of it in "wealth preserving gold" while also purchasing some "silver for trade".
Since you are posting in the SF and not business, then I would say that you are on the right track as far as wealth preservation. Many confuse this with investments. I also would agree that silver can be used for trade. The current economic fundamentals have not changed, and appear to be getting worse - therefore - some feel that the metals will still continue on the upward trend. Try to establish rapport with a local establishment. Trading is alive and well. Smaller pieces may cost more, but will be more liquid. 1/4 GAE/Krug/Maple, $5 Half Eagles or smaller, Brittish Sovereigns, Pesos, Pamp and Credit Suisse. $15K will get you about 8 or so ounces - which is nothing to sneeze at, but can get you over 400 ounces in pre-65 silver (at $35/spot). Dimes and quarters would be easier to make change instead of silver dollars. (edit) speeling |
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Back in the day I got some awesome deals and I'll tell you just how I did it.
Find a small local dealer, one man shop if you can. Tell him you want to buy some silver, nothing fancy just silver. Go in every week and buy some more silver. Don't waste his time just be the guy who buys every week. After a month or so you'll be on good terms and then change it up to "got any good deals on gold?". I did this for an entire summer and just about every other time I went in to buy silver he'd offer me a fantastic price on gold coin. I don't have a lot of money so I rarely took him up on it but a couple we offered to me at or under spot. By the end of the summer I'd walk in and he'd hand me about $5k of stuff to look at while he helped other customers. |
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the down side? Well, the federal government has previously taken possession of privately owned gold.
Executive order 6102 required all US citizens to surrender gold no later than May 1, 1933 in exchange for about $20 per ounce. The government claimed it needed to prevent hoarding. The smae government turned around and sold the same damned gold for closer to $35 an ounce on international markets. In short, they screwed US citizens (surprise). I assume that the OP wants precious metals as a last ditch insurance policy against economic meltdown. Given that governments do really stupid things in such times (they are, after all, the ones who generally create the conditons leading to economic meltdown) it makes sense to ensure that said gold is safe from theft by the government. |
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First off, a hat tip for saving, but the thing is your paper can become worthless overnight. As Ann Barnhartt says - "if you cannot stand in front of it and gaurd it with an assault rifle, get rid of it!"
I see you are in NY. I think you should liquidate and get across the Mississippi River at least. Move to the redoubt as Rawles describes it. I am married with two kids. Get out of the there as soon as you can. Use your savings to G.O.O.D. now. For the funds you have now you can get a fixer upper out there and use your skills to upgrade it. I see that as the best investment. I was going to say put it all in Silver, but you need to get the heck out of NEW YORK! |
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I'm reading Jim Rickards' book "Currency Wars" right now, some thoughts: If our .gov continues to print FRNs, other countries may stop accepting them and/or prefer other forms of payment. This could lead to a point where PMs are again confiscated, or more likely a high windfall profit tax is levied and burdensome reporting requirements are required on PM sales. So you go to sell your gold with no paper to prove what you paid for them. It's eventually reported to the IRS that you got $XXXXX for that gold transaction. Taking special interest in PM sales, the IRS crawls up your behind and assumes you paid NOTHING for that gold since you have no paper to prove your cost basis (or they don't accept the paper you forge up). With a windfall profit tax of 90% of the reported sales amount, your profit of $XXXX turns into you owing the IRS $XXXX and in the end you've lost money. There are a million different ways this could play out. Just laying out a worst case scenario for purchasing gold without paper. |
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with all due respect to heavily-armed, a lack of a papertrail does not mean its black market gold or something similar. When you buy gold, you will get a receipt. There is your cost basis. Hell, you get a reciept when you buy chewing gum. The lack of a paper trail simply means that the retailer sells a half dozen ounces to some guy off the street (you or me) and then has no fuurther information regarding who or where the PM are.
Recently government agencies demanded that the LDS church provide customer list information regarding food stores. Who bought how much of what and when. This is a paper trail. If you bought stuff online there is a document that says Mr. X bought 12 cases of rice, beans and wheat and paid via visa, shipped to 1123 Main St., East Armpit Ohio. If you walked in off the street and bought the samde 12 cases, paying cash, the LDS church says to Mr. FBIman "sorry. Cash customer. Somebody walked in and bought 12 cases". End of argument. Even cash customers get a receipt. It lists date, # of ounces, cost per ounce, taxes, and total. Fully acceptable for and and all IRS purposes. |
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Quoted:
with all due respect to heavily-armed, a lack of a papertrail does not mean its black market gold or something similar. When you buy gold, you will get a receipt. There is your cost basis. Hell, you get a reciept when you buy chewing gum. The lack of a paper trail simply means that the retailer sells a half dozen ounces to some guy off the street (you or me) and then has no fuurther information regarding who or where the PM are. Recently government agencies demanded that the LDS church provide customer list information regarding food stores. Who bought how much of what and when. This is a paper trail. If you bought stuff online there is a document that says Mr. X bought 12 cases of rice, beans and wheat and paid via visa, shipped to 1123 Main St., East Armpit Ohio. If you walked in off the street and bought the samde 12 cases, paying cash, the LDS church says to Mr. FBIman "sorry. Cash customer. Somebody walked in and bought 12 cases". End of argument. Even cash customers get a receipt. It lists date, # of ounces, cost per ounce, taxes, and total. Fully acceptable for and and all IRS purposes. ^^^^^^^^This is my experience and understanding as well. This is what I did: The only thing I hold in full oz. is silver. All my gold is fractional because I believe it may be easier to sell smaller amounts when needed (if the gold price skyrockets). and selling smaller amounts may help keep you "below the radar" - if you believe in that sort of thing. As to what you decide to do, it's your money, your choice. What I have found since I started buying PM here in the U.S.: The largest premium is on pre-1933 U.S. gold coins. (even non-numismatics) -lots of people like these, they are very nice coins, but I just can't bring myself to pay the extra they want for them (yet). The lowest premium I have found is on Mexican gold coins. -I like these coins. Most coin stores I have been to sell them for around SPOT. -Traveling around the U.S., they do not seem overly popular outside of Texas, so I have gotten some really good deals on them. Everything else seems to fall in the middle. Premiums on fractional gold eagles is pretty high. The reason (as explained to me) is minting costs for a 1/10 eagle is the same as a 1oz. eagle. |
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I keep all my gold in fractional amounts. I know that it ends up costing me more over spot.
I may be way off here, but doesn't Obamacare have a provision in it that beginning next year, any transactions where you trade in more than $600, you get a tax form from your dealer (if you are dealing with a dealer). Please correct me if I got this wrong. Point is, fractional gold, unless it goes ballistic, will keep you below the $600 threshold. |
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Quoted:
I keep all my gold in fractional amounts. I know that it ends up costing me more over spot. I may be way off here, but doesn't Obamacare have a provision in it that beginning next year, any transactions where you trade in more than $600, you get a tax form from your dealer (if you are dealing with a dealer). Please correct me if I got this wrong. Point is, fractional gold, unless it goes ballistic, will keep you below the $600 threshold. yes, my understanding is that we are about to enter a nightmare of 1099 forms....will also be a nightmare of theft of identity if you ask me. All your information floating around on so many forms.......sheesh..... Doc |
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I agree with buying bullion. This can mean coins, like American Eagles that are not specially rare or graded. I like AEs and Krugerrands because they're recognizable and may be more tradeable than bars. Numismatic often refers to coins with ADDITIONAL coin value due to their age, rarity, condition, etc. I avoid that.
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Quoted:
I keep all my gold in fractional amounts. I know that it ends up costing me more over spot. I may be way off here, but doesn't Obamacare have a provision in it that beginning next year, any transactions where you trade in more than $600, you get a tax form from your dealer (if you are dealing with a dealer). Please correct me if I got this wrong. Point is, fractional gold, unless it goes ballistic, will keep you below the $600 threshold. I believe this was removed from the law and will NOT go into effect. |
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WRT the paper trail, any seller who sells more than $50k/year in PMs is subject to federal regulations that require taking down the buyers info; doesnt matter if its a pawnshop, coin dealer, pm dealer, or Joe Schmoe selling gold out of the trunk of his car. IIRC this was part f the anti money laundering provisions of the Patriot Act.
If you want to buy without a paper trail its not likely you're going to do it any sort of regular dealer in PMs or coins, and thus may pose more risk of getting scammed. |
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Are you guys worried about things like this?
China copies our coins I just started purchasing last year, so far I have only bought online when they have a smoking sale, I almost bought a bunch at an auction but guys were paying spot for bags but weren't factoring in the 15% buyers premium at the auction. SO I walked away from that. Is there any reliable test kits to make sure your really getting silver? Gold? The cops just busted a guy here in town selling 1400$ worth of fake silver eagles to a pawn shop. Apparently the first 2 didn't even catch the fakes. |
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Texas University takes DELIVERY of 1B in gold bars
See if this makes you feel any different. If the Universities are taking deliveries of gold bars...? Keep in mind this was in April @1400 and ounce, all time high at the time. Do you ever wonder why this is NOT in the news? I think to myself.. "SELF why is that?" Still prepping !!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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thank you everyone for your replies
I think when I said "numismatic" I didn't really understand the meaning of it, in regards to "coin collecting". I'm definitely not looking to collect coins, I'm looking to preserve my meager wealth in gold and silver. I will start slow....and go a little bit at a time in the beginning. If buying coins, I will make sure not to be paying premium for "collector coins" ... I read somewhere about the confiscation of gold that was in foreign moneys....but....hell with it, I'm not about to tell the gubment where my little precious metal cache is. I think I will start with some "junk silver" to get my feet wet, can't go wrong with that. I'm going to browse the local area for coin shops and such, and maybe buy a little bit online. I'll get some gold soon enough, but I'll take it one step at a time....and try to pay as close to spot as feasible. Thank you again for all your replies, you all didn't disappoint me -Marty |
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Texas University takes DELIVERY of 1B in gold bars See if this makes you feel any different. If the Universities are taking deliveries of gold bars...? Keep in mind this was in April @1400 and ounce, all time high at the time. Do you ever wonder why this is NOT in the news? I think to myself.. "SELF why is that?" Still prepping !!!!!!!!!!!!!! The Texas University story just shocked me, that is one very serious indicator of our country's condition. |
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Are you guys worried about things like this? China copies our coins I just started purchasing last year, so far I have only bought online when they have a smoking sale, I almost bought a bunch at an auction but guys were paying spot for bags but weren't factoring in the 15% buyers premium at the auction. SO I walked away from that. Is there any reliable test kits to make sure your really getting silver? Gold? The cops just busted a guy here in town selling 1400$ worth of fake silver eagles to a pawn shop. Apparently the first 2 didn't even catch the fakes. For gold coins, you can get a Fisch guage. There is a class of extremely sophisticated fakes that can get through. Another sure-fire test (and what I use personally) is an ultrasonic thickness gauge (UTG). They work by measuring the speed of sound or thickness of whatever you put the probe against. They aren't cheap ($600-$1500) but if you have the specs for the coins from the mint (fairly easy to get online) they can't be spoofed in any way. UTGs will work on silver as well as gold, again, provided you have the specifications on the coin (specifically the alloy, so you can look up the speed of sound. Alternatively if you have a known-good coin, you can measure the thickness and compute from this. Several large, billion-dollar gold businesses use UTG or ultrasonic inspection for acceptance testing of delivered gold bars. |
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WRT the paper trail, any seller who sells more than $50k/year in PMs is subject to federal regulations that require taking down the buyers info; doesnt matter if its a pawnshop, coin dealer, pm dealer, or Joe Schmoe selling gold out of the trunk of his car. IIRC this was part f the anti money laundering provisions of the Patriot Act. If you want to buy without a paper trail its not likely you're going to do it any sort of regular dealer in PMs or coins, and thus may pose more risk of getting scammed. Well, all the coins stores I have bought from only care about Mr. Franklins information, never ask for mine. Quoted:
Are you guys worried about things like this? China copies our coins I just started purchasing last year, so far I have only bought online when they have a smoking sale, I almost bought a bunch at an auction but guys were paying spot for bags but weren't factoring in the 15% buyers premium at the auction. SO I walked away from that. Is there any reliable test kits to make sure your really getting silver? Gold? The cops just busted a guy here in town selling 1400$ worth of fake silver eagles to a pawn shop. Apparently the first 2 didn't even catch the fakes. Yes their are kits you can get. If you buy from a local coin dealer, you will probably be OK. I have watched them buy stuff and they usually check the items. I have never gotten anything fake from a dealer (so far) The easiest (cheapest) way is to 1) Know what you are buying. Be familiar with what they look like, size and weight (I have a cheat sheet on my i-Touch) 2) A magnet, a small digital scale and a set of calipers can detect most fakes. to get the weight right, they usually have to be oversized. I have a small digital scale I bought at harbor freight that works great. ETA: although, now that I think about it, it's a Chinese scale It may be programmed to display a fake weight when weighing a Chinese fake coin...... 
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I think when I said "numismatic" I didn't really understand the meaning of it, in regards to "coin collecting". I'm definitely not looking to collect coins, I'm looking to preserve my meager wealth in gold and silver.
some feel that numismatic coins (pre-34 and maybe current proofs, etc.) should be exempt from having to turn in your collection to the man. I suspect that when the time comes, Au=Au. as far a counterfeits, it is good to know the particulars of a coin that you are dealing in: details of the coin itself, dimensions, weight,.... I have seen a 1911 $10 Eagle that I was certain that was counterfeit. The size and weight were correct, but details of the coin itself were wrong. 1st, there were 48 stars on the rim vs. 46, signifying the states of the Union. Next, the coin appeared to be slightly worn, but displayed luster in the worn areas. (Luster is the frosty, or cartwheel-effect that one sees in an uncirculated coin.) 3rd, there were tiny bubbles or pimples on some areas of the coin. While we have no doubt that the coin was indeed the correct gold, there have been reports that heavily worn coins have been melted down and cast into more lucrative pieces. While the Chicoms are notorious for copyright infringement, many copies have come out of the Middle East for some time...... Understanding Counterfeit Detection I have not idea what happened to the coin. Be aware that even PCGS slabs are counterfeited too. Fake PCGS Slab Diagnostics stick with reputable dealers that will honor their product and thrive by their reputation. [2] |
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Quoted: Just something to think about... an eruption of the Yellowstone caldera (super volcano) makes much of Rawles' advice moot as far as the east coast goes.First off, a hat tip for saving, but the thing is your paper can become worthless overnight. As Ann Barnhartt says - "if you cannot stand in front of it and gaurd it with an assault rifle, get rid of it!" I see you are in NY. I think you should liquidate and get across the Mississippi River at least. Move to the redoubt as Rawles describes it. I am married with two kids. Get out of the there as soon as you can. Use your savings to G.O.O.D. now. For the funds you have now you can get a fixer upper out there and use your skills to upgrade it. I see that as the best investment. I was going to say put it all in Silver, but you need to get the heck out of NEW YORK! |
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My recommendation is 50/50 Au/Ag, and don't allocate any more than 10% of your savings for the initial purchase. After that, allocate 10-20% of your year-to-year savings to precious metals.
Dollar cost averaging over time is the key, which makes your initial purchase somewhat more risky than subsequent purchases. You aren't going to get rich of off precious metals; they are merely a store wealth, but they may help you sleep better at night. Don't worry about the pre-34 gold coins, unless you really just like collecting things. The whole part about being above confiscation is nonsense. Besides, the government will simply confiscate your IRA/401k accounts. Easier and less hassle. Since we are no longer on the gold standard, the government's confiscation of gold is on even more shaky ground than it was in 1934. It was criminal then, and more so today. Sure, confiscating your personal IRAs in exchange for a government sponsored "defined benefit" plan is equally criminal, but they'll market it as "fair", "less risk" and "square deal" and some other nonsense like that. |
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I keep all my gold in fractional amounts. I know that it ends up costing me more over spot. I may be way off here, but doesn't Obamacare have a provision in it that beginning next year, any transactions where you trade in more than $600, you get a tax form from your dealer (if you are dealing with a dealer). Please correct me if I got this wrong. Point is, fractional gold, unless it goes ballistic, will keep you below the $600 threshold. I believe this was removed from the law and will NOT go into effect. It was. I apologize for my lack of informtion. Here is the reporting guidelines as they stand now: *** SILVER BULLION Private silver bullion, 1099 Form exempt regarding any quantity of the following items: - American Silver Eagle Coins - Canadian Maple Leaf Silver Coins - Austrian Philharmonic Silver Coins Reported silver bullion, 1099 Form required, .999 fine silver bars/rounds sold in quantities: - 1000 oz or more per transaction (100 oz bars, 10 oz bars, 1 oz bars, 1 oz rounds) *** GOLD BULLION Private gold bullion, 1099 Form exempt regarding any quantity for the following items: - American Gold Eagle Coins 1 oz, 1/2 oz, 1/4 oz, 1/10 oz - American Gold Buffalo Coins 1 oz Reported gold bullion, 1099 Form required, foreign coins sold in quantities: - Canadian Gold Maples 25 oz + - South African Krugerrands 25 oz + - Gold Austrian Philharmonics 25 oz + Reported gold bullion, 1099 Form required, fine gold bars sold in quantities: - One kilo in total (32.15 troy oz ) or more per transaction This info was found HERE |
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Just something to think about... an eruption of the Yellowstone caldera (super volcano) makes much of Rawles' advice moot as far as the east coast goes.
First off, a hat tip for saving, but the thing is your paper can become worthless overnight. As Ann Barnhartt says - "if you cannot stand in front of it and gaurd it with an assault rifle, get rid of it!" I see you are in NY. I think you should liquidate and get across the Mississippi River at least. Move to the redoubt as Rawles describes it. I am married with two kids. Get out of the there as soon as you can. Use your savings to G.O.O.D. now. For the funds you have now you can get a fixer upper out there and use your skills to upgrade it. I see that as the best investment. I was going to say put it all in Silver, but you need to get the heck out of NEW YORK! Not trying to be contradictory, but as far as I can tell, Rawles predictions and the yellowstone supercaldera have about as much chance at coming true. Also, tag for interest. I need more PM. |