[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Perimeter Defense From Vehicles (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 10/9/2011 7:59:09 AM EDT
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Here is the situation. 12 acres of TOTALLY flat ground. No terrain features. It currently has a pole type fence around it. House in the middle of the property. LOTs of fenceline, like 3,500 feet worth so cost per foot is important.
How do I construct something that keeps vehicles from crashing the fence and charging the house? I thought a ditch would be good but it would also provide cover to bad guys to hunker down in and take shots at the house. I thought a steel fence with steel rails but that seems like $$$$$. I was thinking of Steel fence posts with one steel rail at the top and barb wire below to cut down on cost. I don't want it to look like a compound. Any ideas on how to stop a vehicle without providing the bad guys cover and keeping the cost reasonable? |
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Here is the situation. 12 acres of TOTALLY flat ground. No terrain features. It currently has a pole type fence around it. House in the middle of the property. LOTs of fenceline, like 3,500 feet worth so cost per foot is important. How do I construct something that keeps vehicles from crashing the fence and charging the house? I thought a ditch would be good but it would also provide cover to bad guys to hunker down in and take shots at the house. I thought a steel fence with steel rails but that seems like $$$$$. I was thinking of Steel fence posts with one steel rail at the top and barb wire below to cut down on cost. I don't want it to look like a compound. Any ideas on how to stop a vehicle without providing the bad guys cover and keeping the cost reasonable? There is a local car dealership here, that has no fence around their lot. Instead, they have what looks like small decorative blocks (shaped to prevent a car from driving over them), but don't look like blocks. (kinda hard to explain). They are lined all around the lot. Very unobtrusive, but they look they do what they intended. I'll see if I can find a pic. |
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Here is the situation. 12 acres of TOTALLY flat ground. No terrain features. It currently has a pole type fence around it. House in the middle of the property. LOTs of fenceline, like 3,500 feet worth so cost per foot is important. How do I construct something that keeps vehicles from crashing the fence and charging the house? I thought a ditch would be good but it would also provide cover to bad guys to hunker down in and take shots at the house. I thought a steel fence with steel rails but that seems like $$$$$. I was thinking of Steel fence posts with one steel rail at the top and barb wire below to cut down on cost. I don't want it to look like a compound. Any ideas on how to stop a vehicle without providing the bad guys cover and keeping the cost reasonable? There is a local car dealership here, that has no fence around their lot. Instead, they have what looks like small decorative blocks (shaped to prevent a car from driving over them), but don't look like blocks. (kinda hard to explain). They are lined all around the lot. Very unobtrusive, but they look they do what they intended. I'll see if I can find a pic. Right, you can place big boulders around your property that will either cost you very little compared to a fence or maybe you can get them for free. Motorcycles can still get through and maybe the Gators and Mules but placing spikes will slow these down. ( boards with nails ), Just check local laws, this could be considered a Bobby Trap and Illegal. |
Not what you are looking for, but cool pics anyways.
Look into bollards. http://1800bollards.com/ |
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Do you have any elevation at the house? If so, you could dig a ditch with a steep slope on the incoming side, and a shallow slope from your side, so you can fire into the ditch.
You could plant some trees on the other side of the fence. You could grow a thick hedgerow on the outside perimeter to limit vehicle entry, and then some more mundane channeling and/or delay fencing/landscaping inside of that. |
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Quoted: Do you have any elevation at the house? If so, you could dig a ditch with a steep slope on the incoming side, and a shallow slope from your side, so you can fire into the ditch. You could plant some trees on the other side of the fence. You could grow a thick hedgerow on the outside perimeter to limit vehicle entry, and then some more mundane channeling and/or delay fencing/landscaping inside of that. I thought of that too but since I have no experience with fortifications or anything military, at all, I didn't want to say anything. Sounds sensible to me though. |
The ARMY has a few things to say on the subject  http://www.enlisted.info/field-manuals/fm-5-102-countermobility.shtml |
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Not what you are looking for, but cool pics anyways. http://lh5.ggpht.com/_nPrtoycINQU/SxIkcIr-KcI/AAAAAAAAFJQ/G0oFwBxOe8A/s720/czech%20hedgehog%20-%20Rozsochac.jpg http://www.matterhorntravel.com/images/normandy/dragons_teeth.jpg Look into bollards. http://1800bollards.com/ http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcToY9EtJISPw7jliqKy0jGVbIT2eL0EcUcb2FlP9xwlIWG2k_BdXQnz8QgoFA The top pic was all I could come up with. |
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Considering the OP's apparent budget and other constraints, it seems, other than some expensive contouring of the terrain around the house, it would be less expensive to move.
Also, that many boulders aren't inexpensive unless there are zillions growing nearby. Just the hauling of them for the number required is prohibitive for most folks. Even then, if an effective barrier were to be established, what practical additional security has been accomplished? Determined intruders can still prevail with tactics besides driving a pickup to the house. Flat fields of fire work in both directions. |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ha-ha If you can move dirt, you can build this. I would still plant hedgerows also. |
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spike strips on the yard perimiter, then rings of trees.
course that's just to slow them down and give you warning, short of a moat, castle walls and draw bridge your not going to keep vehicles out for long; hell as many bulldozers I see setting around my area, even fortified barricades won't last long against one of them. |
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How wet is it there? You might be able to make "wetland" by extending the road ditch on other sides of the property. Most vehicles can't pass through mud. Extra bonus, you'd get to charge them storage or loot the vehicle afterwards. (Depending on where in the SHTF spectrum you are at the moment.) Heck, the gov might even PAY you to make them. Note however, you may not be able to REMOVE them later.
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How wet is it there? You might be able to make "wetland" by extending the road ditch on other sides of the property. Most vehicles can't pass through mud. Extra bonus, you'd get to charge them storage or loot the vehicle afterwards. (Depending on where in the SHTF spectrum you are at the moment.) Heck, the gov might even PAY you to make them. Note however, you may not be able to REMOVE them later. having a "wetland" close by presents it's own sort of issues. my parents live by a lake, a creek that feeds into the lake has water in it even in a drought like Oklahoma's had this year. every summer/fall they have swarms of mosquitos and gnats buzzing around their place; they have bug zappers by the doors and still have issues with the gnats getting into the house; they've taken to leaving the lights off inside after dark because they'll have a swarm inside in notime. |
| You're asking too much from one thing. If you want something to stop a vehicle, you have to accept the possibility that it could be used as cover. There are other things to do about cover which will take care of that problem, but if you don't stop the vehicle away from your home, the bad guys will roll that "cover" right up to your front door. |
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Bolards is the cheap answer. Post hole digger, used railroad ties, chainsaw, several weekends, done. Pretty hard to hide behind an upright railroad tie. 3 foot hole, cut railroad tie in half, dry pack cement. You don't necessarily need to have the vehicle slam bumper first into the post. Just leave enough tie above ground to catch an axle. Every 3 feet along should do the trick–– even a mule or quad will have difficulty with that. Don't string any cable between them, though, as it might be possible to scale the bollard using the cable as support. You could always plant roses between the bollards too, to mask them, though rose bushes could provide some concealment. |
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Off topic I know but how would one go about mounting an ACOG to that? jim |
| Definitely go the boulder route. Call some of the excavation contractors around your area and see if you can work a deal out with them. Get a whole mess of boulders delivered, then rent a PC380 loader or a 300 series excavator with a thumb to move them around where you want them.... that size equpement WILL be required to move 36" boulders (We just finished building 6 boulder drop structures and six miles of new channel... so you thats from experiance). Also... depending on where your water table is and how much money you have to spend, the pond idea is TITS! Plus, then you have a water source and possibly food if its big enough and you manage to get fish in it. |
Six inches of rebar cut on a sharp angle every eights inches. That ditch providing cover could be piped with natural gas to turn it into a bbq pit once the bad guys are in. Some homemade nerve gasses are heavier than air and could ride the ditch as well. I'm thinking chlorine gas or gasoline. If the ditch was fifty foot deep no one could use it for cover. That's a long fall. In the summer it could be a lazy river; you could charge admission.
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Trees trees trees... then cut some down and plant more trees. Then bury some post and push trees against them and plant more trees.... You are not going to protect against the US military . You can protect against a 4WD truck.....
Here in Florida they cut trees and push all the unused material in to a pile that is 10 to 20 foot wide and 10 to 15 foot high into a row. After the fox grapes take over and the critters it is virtually impenetrable. Oh and plant black berries for good measure, them damn thorns are like barbed wire. Also depending on where you live consider the ability of bamboo. Stuff grows like crazy and is strong. |
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Trees or something similiar are probably your best bet if you want it to look natural and not scream "fortified position".
The problem with your defenses acting as cover for the attackers is not something you can do a whole lot about. Most good obstacles (short of a minefield or tanglefoot) will provide some degree of cover to an attacker if they can get to it. Your obstacle should be designed to do a few things, (1) dissuade the attacker from even trying to use that route (2) funnel your attacker to where you want him to go (3) slow your attacker down so he can be engaged with direct fire or indirect weapons systems. No obstacle will be succesful unless it is overwatched, any obstacle can be breached if the attacker has the skills, time and, resources. The key is that the obstacle needs to slow them down enough that you can make them pay dearly for trying to breach the obstacle and at the same time make them adjust their plan to go where you want them to go (which should be were it is optimal for you to engage them. Also if your building an obstacle (or planting one) then you need to carefully examine the obstacle from both the defenders perspective and the attackers, know its weaknesses, its strengthes and know what portions provide defilade cover, know where you need to go to get a clear shot into those defilade areas etc.... Building an obstacle is more than just throwing up some rocks and calling it good, at least if you want to do it correctly. |
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Around my office the trees are only 4-5" in diameter, but there are alot of them, and they are oak. The undergrowth and lower branches have been removed to an 8' level. You could probably drive an ATV through there, but a truck would be iffy. With the undergrowth removed, there isnt much visible concealment, and the trees won't stop much. |
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Have you had many vehicles crash the fence and charge the house? TREES –– Plant Trees in every car VS tree accident I have been to the tree won. GREAT IDEA!!! Keeps you low key and helps keep visibility down. Would a line of trees around your property be too conspicuous? |
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I thought a ditch would be good but it would also provide cover to bad guys to hunker down in and take shots at the house. A ditch would work just fine, it's how you make the ditch that matters. [badguys]__________........... _________[House] ...............................|........../ ...............................|......../ ...............................|____/ By angling the side that is nearest the building you can see (and shoot into) the ditch, have the far side verticle. As a bonus if you enter the ditch it will provide cover for you shooting away from the house. The US Army has a FM on field works/engineering that should be able to provide the dimensions for width and depth required. |
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Have you had many vehicles crash the fence and charge the house? TREES –– Plant Trees in every car VS tree accident I have been to the tree won. GREAT IDEA!!! Keeps you low key and helps keep visibility down. Would a line of trees around your property be too conspicuous? Yes if they are close enough together to stop a vehicle from getting through. Also such fences take years to build up - even if you use fast growing poplars. |
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Bollards are the way to go. I would use at least 4" pipe 3' out of the ground 3' in the ground. You can use caps or fill the pipes with concrete to keep water out. You can space them 6' apart... Stuff newspaper into the pipe a few inches down from the top. This way you only need a little concrete to make a cap. A sack of quikcrete will go a long way. |
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A ditch is a smart idea..
My buddy just back from Afghanistan was telling me about these ditches they have over there. Essentially, they are mini canals or aqueducts of sorts. They are roughly about 20-24 inches wide, and only about 2 ftt deep. But the issue is that anything with wheels had trouble moving past them at anything other than a crawl. It seemed as if it was just wide enough and deep enough that Humvee tires would hit in them, and because they were some sort of rock or clay or something, tires couldn't get a grip on them. Won't be insurmountable, but it will definitely cause the vehicles to slow down when approaching the house, and they are shallow enough to not really give a person a good hide. |
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Dig a ditch as described above, with a steep slope on the side away for the house and a shallow slope on the side closest to the house. You'll be able to shoot into the ditch from an elevated position. For more security plant something that has thorns and grows thick. i.e. rose bushes or some berries grow on plants with thorns, use the plants to funnel anyone that leaves the vehicle after it gets stuck in the ditch.
It will take time and a lot of work but will be cost effective and worth it. |
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Dig a ditch and use it as a pre-sighted zone for mortars against attacking infantry taking cover there. 
That would be epic. if you can get mortars why stop there? I'd throw in a 105mm howitzer AT LEAST. Can a howitzer go that short of a range?  I'm imagining a few hundred yards at most.
Fuck it. Put mini-tactical nukes in orbit and cook anyone who gets uncomfortably close. No but seriously, a ditch that has the sides angled inward (/____\) would probably be hard to climb with tires and find a median between deep enough to stop vics and shallow enough to make for shitty cover. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Dig a ditch and use it as a pre-sighted zone for mortars against attacking infantry taking cover there. That would be epic. if you can get mortars why stop there? I'd throw in a 105mm howitzer AT LEAST. Can a howitzer go that short of a range? I'm imagining a few hundred yards at most.Fuck it. Put mini-tactical nukes in orbit and cook anyone who gets uncomfortably close. No but seriously, a ditch that has the sides angled inward (/____\) would probably be hard to climb with tires and find a median between deep enough to stop vics and shallow enough to make for shitty cover. Our local guard artillery unit got kind of (in)famous for point shooting their guns. |
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Dig a ditch and use it as a pre-sighted zone for mortars against attacking infantry taking cover there.
That would be epic. if you can get mortars why stop there? I'd throw in a 105mm howitzer AT LEAST. Can a howitzer go that short of a range? I'm imagining a few hundred yards at most.
Fuck it. Put mini-tactical nukes in orbit and cook anyone who gets uncomfortably close. No but seriously, a ditch that has the sides angled inward (/____\) would probably be hard to climb with tires and find a median between deep enough to stop vics and shallow enough to make for shitty cover. Our local guard artillery unit got kind of (in)famous for point shooting their guns. Nice! Op, Howitzer is most definitely the way to go. |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abatis
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cwpt/3532796339/ eta: I wouldn't deploy something like that today, but it might be nice to have some premade/set aside. |
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why put a defensive obstruction system that far out? why not ring the house and a small defensible area with the above mentioned boulders (they dont have to be that big to stop an average vehicle), then you can use them as cover and still have the stand off distance and clear fields of fire from the house. so they drive a little closer - that just means they are all lumped together in one target area also - if you have a AR or similar center fire rifle - a normal vehicle will provide only very limited cover (engine block, trans, etc) with more than one or two people all fighting to get behind the same parts it can get awful crowded. |
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I use a series of 8 inch treated posts, two feet high, with 5/16 in. cable strung through drilled holes. The poles a set in two feet and set with concrete. This is on the road frontage. Trees and brush take care of the other three sides.
This was done on a budget and is not proof against anythig very large, but will stop or delay all manner of cowboy trucks and four-wheelers which it was installed to deal with. Vehicles are funneled in to the gate, which requires a > 90 degree turn and is under easy observation from the house. Over the years, I have replaced most of the posts due to rot. I've gotten hold of some light poles and where I can I am replacing posts with these bigger, heavier posts. Pipe would be nice, but as I said, budget was a factor. I have enough cable to close the power company right of way and harden the gate if need be. Dropping some tree trunks inside the cable would insure that no vehicles could get in if things go really bad. |
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Quoted: No offense, but it seems to me that if you have to defend your compound against multiple vehicle attacks at long distances, your plan has failed. Exactly. Without serious crew served weapons, stockpiles of ammo and spares for them, indirect fire capability in mortars I.E BEING A PART OF A MILITARY FORCE this scenario is completely unfeasible. |
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No offense, but it seems to me that if you have to defend your compound against multiple vehicle attacks at long distances, your plan has failed. Exactly. Without serious crew served weapons, stockpiles of ammo and spares for them, indirect fire capability in mortars I.E BEING A PART OF A MILITARY FORCE this scenario is completely unfeasible. I want 36_gauge on my team!!
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: No offense, but it seems to me that if you have to defend your compound against multiple vehicle attacks at long distances, your plan has failed. Exactly. Without serious crew served weapons, stockpiles of ammo and spares for them, indirect fire capability in mortars I.E BEING A PART OF A MILITARY FORCE this scenario is completely unfeasible. I want 36_gauge on my team!! I was born to be infantry  we'll see about that when I'm conscripted  100 acres walled in with double HESCO bastions, concertina wire fields, a moat, MG emplacements and a huge mortar pit in the middle with the perimeter pre-sighted, bunkers for everything and trenches and/or tunnels between the bunkers with minimal surface structures. That's my dream home. And a full company of SF members to man it
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