Posted: 7/15/2011 12:25:23 PM EDT
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Yesterday I took the last of the two-day class, “Fighting in and Around Vehicles” offered by Jorge Biagorria. As always the classes are top-notch and I’m glad to take advantage of this excellent opportunity to learn more about defensive shooting. While there are many good instructors around the world, it is a rare opportunity to find one that teaches techniques that are constantly put to test in the real world within that same environment. Every shooting technique is presented with a recent case in which either an instructor present or student of the academy used it himself. Its hard to argue with an unaimed backward shooting stance when it happened to be used successfully by at least two people within the group of acquaintances that year alone. “When Carlitos was getting pistol-whipped in the back of the head, this is how he drew his weapon, and this is how he shot his attacker. Daniel did this same thing when he was robbed” Another instructor interrupts Jorge. “Daniel actually shot from the left, Carlitos did it to the right”. “Oh right, in any case we’re practicing on both sides”. A student interrupts the explanation with a question “What if you get shot in the back of the head?”. The reply is obvious. “Then you get shot in the head. There’s no guarantee during this sort of attack”. Later when talking about the parts of your body that are likely to get shot: “You need to be skilled with both hands because your arms are likely to get shot. The natural defensive stance brings your arms up into the line of fire, so your arms and forearms get shot in the fight, see?” He points to a 38 special gun shot wound in his forearm. Everything you do and learn is done so for a reason. It has worked for enough people enough times that it was decided to include it in the class. For every shooting stance and technique such events of how it happened are described. It’s truly a unique opportunity to lean in such a way. The current crime problem in Argentina is unfortunate, but it’s a field test for defensive shooting and an opportunity for you to learn from other’s experience. It’s not about how it was done in the good old days, but the gunfight that took place that same week a mile away from where you’re training and with the people that were involved. Yesterday I saw a group of Australian cops taking classes as well, and there were a couple French checking out our class too. After the different drills of shooting in all directions from a seated position, we practiced some kneeling and shooting from the floor. A good amount of time was spend learning to work in pairs, providing covering fire and communicating with our partner so as to keep a constant rate of fire with a one second interval to keep the bad guys at bay (the capacity of your handgun and fast reload if of great importance here) Then we moved to the vehicles, practicing how to carry your firearm, how to get out of the vehicle, how to move for cover, then working in pairs covering each other as we went around the vehicle. Finally we did a force on force exercise where you drive with your partner into an unknown situation. Two where robberies, the other was a fight among two strangers (you were not supposed to get involved “its not your fight”)I got ambushed from both sides as I got out of the vehicle, got shot in the arm with a wax bullet that left a red mark and small bruise as a reminder. The class was well worth it and its more information to process and keep in mind while driving. If you have the opportunity to come this way and take a few classes, maybe organize a trip with a couple other like-minded people and get some training organized for your needs, it’s a one of a kind opportunity. The atmosphere is friendly and the camaraderie after the classes is very good. No gun guru egos or Grand Masters in their pedestals like it happens with some American instructors, yet at the same time you won’t find people with more street experience regarding what they preach, just people that train and many times had to use what they teach and learn in these classes, both as police officers and civilians. I have no commercial relationship whatsoever with Jorge’s school but I’d help with the communication if anyone wants to come here for training, simply because I know the kind of opportunity it represents. His contact info can be found here http://www.jorgebaigorria.com.ar The Importance of Training Nine of us paid and signed in for the class. Five minutes later the class only had eight people left. Someone had brought a friend of his to the class and clearly overestimated his friend’s skill with a firearm. Problems with his gear, a lack of fluidity in his weapon handling showed he wasn’t ready for advanced training. It was very politely explained to him that he simply lacked the degree of skill required for an advanced shooting class and he would be putting himself and others at risk when shooting on the move and 360º. He was invited to stay and watch the class, but that he would be much better served with Defensive Pistol Module 1. As for the rest of us, only once are you warned about a mistake you may have made regarding safety, the second time you are asked to leave. Shooting from a seated position and doing so with people by your side means that you sometimes break the gun safety rules and cover with your muzzle parts of your body or others you don’t want to shoot, so a level of training is required to take this sort of class safely. The importance of training becomes even more obvious when these things happen for real. Last year a father received a phone call from his son that had problems with his vehicle on the road. Knowing that this can be dangerous in some parts of Argentina, the father picked a gun “just in case” and went to help his son with the car. Sure enough, as he approached his son’s vehicle he saw that he was being mugged. With no training he used the weapon, sending the bad guys away but effectively shooting and killing his own son in the process. I know of a similar case where a son shot his own mother in the hip with a 357 magnum instead of shooting the mental patient that had broken into her house. If you need experience to even practice and train these things in a safe, controlled environment, then what can you expect when doing it for the first time, for real with your loved ones around you? Its up to each one of us to assume the responsibility of owning a firearm for self-defense and acquiring the skill to use it properly. http://www.themodernsurvivalist.com/?p=1468 FerFAL |
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We did vehicle shooting during a couple run and guns, with all the safety rules in place. It is totally different than just bench shooting. For one, we were shooting from a mini-van, the sound inside even with muffs on was outrageous. The other thing is the amount of "support" a vehicle offers when your trying to steady a firearm. Those with longer ARs had major issues within the confines of the mini van. I was using my SBR 10.5" and it was perfect for a vehicle, as was the guys with AKs.
Not just with vehicles but I think training is a very important part. Especially in todays world, its good to know how to properly use your firearm in the event of 2 legged threats. Its a whole different game than just shooting paper from a bench. Good thread. 
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Took a VTAC Street Fighter class couple years ago and you definately learn alot shooting in and around the cars.....shooting at differant parts of the cars to assess protection. Let's face it under fire cars are one of the most commonly available forms of "cover" that will likely be used.
Good points to consider. |
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Shooting from a seated position and doing so with people by your side means that you sometimes break the gun safety rules and cover with your muzzle parts of your body or others you don’t want to shoot, FerFAL This is the truth. So many people here get all bent out of shape on the 4 rules. While they are optimum, they are not always possible when in a situation you don't want to be in. |
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Good post! In the vehicle is one of the places where an extended capacity pistol magazine isn't a bad idea. The South Africans I know all seem to prefer the 20rnd magazines in their Hi-Powers when driving. A second gun is faster than trying to reload while in the vehicle; you'll notice how many loaded AKs a lot of contractors in Iraq have sitting next to them in their trucks. If you haven't tried driving and shooting at the same time it's a PITA. It's also dangerous as hell and should only be done under carefully controlled conditions or in an emergency as it's better to concentrate on driving away if at possible. Wear ear plugs and ear muffs as it's incredibly loud. Another thing everyone should try it drawing their weapon while seated- unload your gun first. Some holsters and some seats are very difficult to draw from while seated in a vehicle.
The other thing I would add is to lock your doors- carjackers lose that second of surprise if your door doesn't come open when they yank on it. ETA- When I mention shooting while driving I'm only talking about when you're the sole occupant of the vehicle, not operating as part of a team. |
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Good post and great topic, FerFAL
My .02 as I have done several vehicle classes with Defensive Edge Consulting: Practice drawing from the holster while seated. Practice with both hands, IE: draw one handed left and right hand. Practice removing your seatbelt one-handed. You can do this whenever you get out of your car every day. Make a habit of looking around you as you approach your vehicle and checking blind spots when you are stopped Lock your vehicle doors upon entry every time. If you are the driver you have one job-DRIVE. You can shoot when your vehicle is disabled and you can't drive anymore. Keep spare mags in your vehicle. Think of them as spares to your carry mags. Your vehicle is not hard cover apart from your wheel hubs. If you are blocked off and disabled/ambushed, get out quickly. One person covers while the other moves. If you have a "Vehicle holster" you transfer your carry gun to when you are driving, rethink that. There will be no time to get your gun if you need it right NOW, or if you have been in a collision. |
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We did vehicle shooting during a couple run and guns, with all the safety rules in place. It is totally different than just bench shooting. For one, we were shooting from a mini-van, the sound inside even with muffs on was outrageous. The other thing is the amount of "support" a vehicle offers when your trying to steady a firearm. Those with longer ARs had major issues within the confines of the mini van. I was using my SBR 10.5" and it was perfect for a vehicle, as was the guys with AKs. Not just with vehicles but I think training is a very important part. Especially in todays world, its good to know how to properly use your firearm in the event of 2 legged threats. Its a whole different game than just shooting paper from a bench. Good thread. 'Tis true! |
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Your vehicle is not hard cover apart from your wheel hubs. I'm completely with you except for the part above. I just did some vehicle shooting a few weeks ago for a movie I'm working on, and my rounds went right through the wheels but not the engine block. Of course, hiding behind the wheel that is behind the engine block worked out pretty well too  .
In this scene I had to jump behind a car while under fire. We stopped the cameras, I slipped out from behind the car and then started rolling film again as two guys with ARs went to work on the car. I think they went through 2 mags each, so 120 rounds rapid fire through the car. Rounds went through wheels, doors, everything but the engine like it was swiss cheese. The ONLY safe place was right where I had gone - at the front wheel behind the engine block. Kind of spooky to see when I had been behind the car a few seconds earlier. Anyway, I think you're spot on. I would rather be behind a wheel rather than in the open, but rifle rounds will go right through them in my experience. |
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Urban Prone, practice like this:
. http://s523.photobucket.com/albums/w353/Fireguy275/August%201%20Vehicle%20Shooting%20Package/?action=view¤t=Iseverybodygood.mp4 |
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Your vehicle is not hard cover apart from your wheel hubs. I'm completely with you except for the part above. I just did some vehicle shooting a few weeks ago for a movie I'm working on, and my rounds went right through the wheels but not the engine block. Of course, hiding behind the wheel that is behind the engine block worked out pretty well too .
In this scene I had to jump behind a car while under fire. We stopped the cameras, I slipped out from behind the car and then started rolling film again as two guys with ARs went to work on the car. I think they went through 2 mags each, so 120 rounds rapid fire through the car. Rounds went through wheels, doors, everything but the engine like it was swiss cheese. The ONLY safe place was right where I had gone - at the front wheel behind the engine block. Kind of spooky to see when I had been behind the car a few seconds earlier. Anyway, I think you're spot on. I would rather be behind a wheel rather than in the open, but rifle rounds will go right through them in my experience. "Thin metal coffin" was was used to describe a vehicle that isn't moving any more for wahtever reason. The idea is to get out of it as fast as possible when that time comes. If the attack comes from 12'clock, we quickly went to the back of the vehicle, placing the entire lenght of the car and its engine between us and the gunfire. With lateral attackers we would exit from the oposite door, keep down and each one take cover behind the wheel axis. The car offers poor protection in general terms, and windows get shot first so yo want to dissapear from there as soon as possible. FerFAL |
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Quoted: Urban Prone, practice like this: . http://s523.photobucket.com/albums/w353/Fireguy275/August%201%20Vehicle%20Shooting%20Package/?action=view¤t=Iseverybodygood.mp4 The driver exiting was exposed for a long time, remember shit happens fast. Even with covering fire from a single shooter he should have been laying down fire while moving to his location away from the vehicle he was driving, at the end of the fight he would have been a statistic. I would have went to the rear of the vehicle they exited from and continued the fight from there It would have been faster and safer and both would have been exposed less Passenger exits and continues to shoot to the rear of the vehicle while driver is still providing covering fire from his position. Driver tops off with a new mag, gets the "ready" from the passenger after he tops off, driver exits continues continues to fire while working his way to the back of the vehicle and has passenger providing covering fire. Now you have set up your defensive position to continue in the fight |
| Do a lot of practice with empty guns, then switch to simunitions or airsoft. Have a "bad guy" role player shooting at you sith sims or airsoft to drive home a few lessons. Of course, you need to be careful so that students don't start thinking that thin sheet metal is always cover. |
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Urban Prone, practice like this: . http://s523.photobucket.com/albums/w353/Fireguy275/August%201%20Vehicle%20Shooting%20Package/?action=view¤t=Iseverybodygood.mp4 I've exited a vehicle receiving heavy fire; I can report it looked nothing like this vid. Especially, the slow response time, and the part featuring running parallel to source of fire & moving bolt upright. These guys wouldn't have done it this way either if the windshield was flying apart! |
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Urban Prone, practice like this: . http://s523.photobucket.com/albums/w353/Fireguy275/August%201%20Vehicle%20Shooting%20Package/?action=view¤t=Iseverybodygood.mp4 I've exited a vehicle receiving heavy fire; I can report it looked nothing like this vid. Especially, the slow response time, and the part featuring running parallel to source of fire & moving bolt upright. These guys wouldn't have done it this way either if the windshield was flying apart! This is what I would suspect as well. Alot different when you have rounds whizzing by your head. |
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Urban Prone, practice like this: . http://s523.photobucket.com/albums/w353/Fireguy275/August%201%20Vehicle%20Shooting%20Package/?action=view¤t=Iseverybodygood.mp4 I've exited a vehicle receiving heavy fire; I can report it looked nothing like this vid. Especially, the slow response time, and the part featuring running parallel to source of fire & moving bolt upright. These guys wouldn't have done it this way either if the windshield was flying apart! As in everything done with live rounds and training, the highest threat in that video is them shooting each other and making sure they don't road rash their faces for the hot dates that night. When rounds are coming back, that is the threat and most everything else is secondary to surviving immediately. So yea, it's not even close to being realistic, but you really can't expect it to be. Training is about learning technique at different levels of proficiency and muscle memory and trying to impose some stress. I would like to hear more about what should have been done different since I have zero experience in this. |
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Your vehicle is not hard cover apart from your wheel hubs. I'm completely with you except for the part above. I just did some vehicle shooting a few weeks ago for a movie I'm working on, and my rounds went right through the wheels but not the engine block. Of course, hiding behind the wheel that is behind the engine block worked out pretty well too .
In this scene I had to jump behind a car while under fire. We stopped the cameras, I slipped out from behind the car and then started rolling film again as two guys with ARs went to work on the car. I think they went through 2 mags each, so 120 rounds rapid fire through the car. Rounds went through wheels, doors, everything but the engine like it was swiss cheese. The ONLY safe place was right where I had gone - at the front wheel behind the engine block. Kind of spooky to see when I had been behind the car a few seconds earlier. Anyway, I think you're spot on. I would rather be behind a wheel rather than in the open, but rifle rounds will go right through them in my experience. I have seen it both ways with vehicles. My opinion is that it depends on the engine and car/vehicle. Bottom line is that we agree a vehicle makes OK concealment and pretty lousy cover for most types of incoming rounds and nearly ALL rifle rounds!
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AKA caja de la muerte (death box). That's a good class Jorge teachs over and over, it never gets old. Tell him Leo said hi. Take care, watch your six Fer. HTR. Hi Leo! You should come to the club one of these Friday nights to TEA, its nice. This Saturday we have retraining of modulo 2, just 400 rounds I believe. I'm already signed in. If you can make it to either one drop me an email or PM. FerFAL |
| If you are engaging targets from a moving vehicle, do not use the window frames as a rest. It is a natural inclination to use a rest. Get in the center of the window because the frame will move with the vehicle and foul your aim. Let your body be the shock absorber for your gun. Front sight focus, smooth trigger. |
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AKA caja de la muerte (death box). That's a good class Jorge teachs over and over, it never gets old. Tell him Leo said hi. Take care, watch your six Fer. HTR. Hi Leo! You should come to the club one of these Friday nights to TEA, its nice. This Saturday we have retraining of modulo 2, just 400 rounds I believe. I'm already signed in. If you can make it to either one drop me an email or PM. FerFAL Yeah, I just renewed my membership a few days ago (was cheating on TFLZ with another range -Quilmes-) but now I', back. I'm going to have to pass on TEA, I used to shoot TEA matches, YEARS ago (like back in 2001), I just don't find them entertaining anymore (shhhhh, don't tell Jorge). Where exactly are you guys gonna be retraining modulo 2? I might take my M4 with me (gotta sight in my aimpoint), but I'm not gonna do that at the practical shooting course. Practical shooters and the board are too anal to allow this, even from an instructor like myself 
Rant about TFLZ off. Cya at the bar? non alcoholic beverages on me. HTR. ETA dammit! I forgot, I'm not gonna be able to make on neither fri or sat. I WILL be there sunday though. |
ah, just got an email saying this class got canceled for some reason. 
You can arrange to get a practical shooting court for you, in that case you can shoot anytihng you want without anyone bothetring you. Then again on Mondays and Tuesday theres no one around and you can basicaly do anything you want.
Still going this Sunday? FerFAL |
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Shooting from a seated position and doing so with people by your side means that you sometimes break the gun safety rules and cover with your muzzle parts of your body or others you don’t want to shoot, FerFAL This is the truth. So many people here get all bent out of shape on the 4 rules. While they are optimum, they are not always possible when in a situation you don't want to be in. exactly. while a person needs a better than basic level of manipulation skills, once achieved i see a lot of those same shooters stall out in their training because they will absolutely not train where some of the 4 rules will get broken. I just pray they never have to use their gun fighting skills (no really, I don't wish a gun fight on anyone ever) but if they do, to a large part, if they are successful will be because of luck and not training experience. I have had training at instructor level where you are actually down range (but not actively taking fire) by other students. it does change your perspective of things to be sure. |
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Sounds like a great class!
Here's some pages inspired by Old_Painless called "The Buick of Truth" that shows just how flimsy a car really is. I know these have been posted before, but still worth seeing. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm |
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Urban Prone, practice like this: . http://s523.photobucket.com/albums/w353/Fireguy275/August%201%20Vehicle%20Shooting%20Package/?action=view¤t=Iseverybodygood.mp4 I've exited a vehicle receiving heavy fire; I can report it looked nothing like this vid. Especially, the slow response time, and the part featuring running parallel to source of fire & moving bolt upright. These guys wouldn't have done it this way either if the windshield was flying apart! This is what I would suspect as well. Alot different when you have rounds whizzing by your head. That's the drill that Chappy made. You could go to his forum and ask him. |