Posted: 3/7/2011 7:06:18 PM EDT
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* Mods please don't move. I think those hear have a better grasp of the question *
I've been asked to setup a IDPA match around SHTF. I would like to know what kind of SHTF scenarios I could possible make into a stage. I ask it here because these are things we discuss often in this thread and could cause someone to think of various ways they may need to defend themselves in a WROL situation. I have permission to slightly alter the match to allow molle gear and thigh holsters.(small of back, shoulder, are still no go for safety) An as an optional stage, I'm having a rifle stage setup in a bay about 15 yards wide and 40 yard deep. No idea on this one yet. Ideas I've been given include: BUG OUT Life as you know it has changed and rule of law has vanished. You can’t stay home so you must bug out. Load up and head for the hills. Be careful there are looters going home to home. ( With bug out bag in hand approach vehicle, engage targets using your vehicle as cover ) HANDS OFF MY FOOD Your food stores are gone and you must forage for food by taking small game but be careful others are hungry for your food. ( small plates symbolize game, once shot, trigger a swinger ) DEAL GONE WRONG You are out bartering for goods when the deal goes bad. ( starting with dominate hand presenting goods, shoot from retention, then engage two targets left and right of center) |
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'road block, home invasion, robbery attempt.
the road block begins with driver seated, set up two Pepper Poppers about 10' ahead of vehicle. on the timer, the driver exits vehicle and engages targets. You can make this a scenario for two shooters, and add in a target about 39 yds away as the third target. Ops |
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road block, strong-arm robbery, generator theft (generator silhouette as 'hostage' target', hostage situation,
Home invasion / fatal funnel defense, starting with shooter in chair 'relaxing', and a door yanked open by a string/helper. four perps crowding the doorway. engage them all, move thru, shoot the others in the yard / outbuilding / getaway vehicle. And I can't think of any others that don't trod over the coc or the thin blue line. |
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10 targets and 7 bullets.
shooting while using the bathroom. shooting at pics of people trying to steal your food to feed their children. shooting a pic of your crippled up best friend because you both agreed not to leave each other for the cannibals shooting foaming mouthed wild domestic animals etc |
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10 targets and 7 bullets. shooting while using the bathroom. shooting at pics of people trying to steal your food to feed their children. shooting a pic of your crippled up best friend because you both agreed not to leave each other for the cannibals shooting foaming mouthed wild domestic animals etc I like the way you think, man. Looking at it from you perspective certainly takes all of the fantasy element out of the OP's shooting exercise, doesn't it! |
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10 targets and 7 bullets. shooting while using the bathroom. I've set this up with a real toilet before shooting at pics of people trying to steal your food to feed their children. It's reality. People break into your house today for the same. Your actions don't change shooting a pic of your crippled up best friend because you both agreed not to leave each other for the cannibals Never did this but did require you to drag a 165lb dummy to safety shooting foaming mouthed wild domestic animals I've done cobras with 2" clays as their heads, and other animals. I may have to do another dog one. etc thanks for the input I've found doing things like above and breaking people out of their square range style of shooting makes them train for the unknown. |
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10 targets and 7 bullets. shooting while using the bathroom. shooting at pics of people trying to steal your food to feed their children. shooting a pic of your crippled up best friend because you both agreed not to leave each other for the cannibals shooting foaming mouthed wild domestic animals etc I like the way you think, man. Looking at it from you perspective certainly takes all of the fantasy element out of the OP's shooting exercise, doesn't it! Thats a good thing. We try to have fun sometimes but honestly make an effort to make it as realistic as possible. After courses like Combat Focus Shooting with Rob Pincus and Judicious Use of Force with Massad Ayoob we often create scenarios that are odd to the "gaming" shooter but real in their design. The addition of shooting with retention has been an eye opener for many. |
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Recon, flanking and tactical confusion. Hmm I see where people should practice on a narrow side profile size target instead of the full frontal. Sounds like a flanking stage. Before you shoot your enemy( if there is time) you want to gather all the info you can on that enemy...as in the way he/she acts, what are they carrying, are they worth giving your position away from other possible violaters. etc Flanking is pretty basic. Basically surprise/surround enemy on the weak side. Tactical confusion, is multiple guns going off while shooting your target, things that may get in the way such as broken down cars, trees, weather, and other variables that have a huge effect in combat. |
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Tactics and scenario are really two different topics as a good tactical plan will cover multiple scenarios.
Like all scenarios, prepare of the most likely first and least likely last. Now for some food for thought, read a lot about AR15s being used for self defense? If you give this some thought, those most likely scenarios will be mostly in your face, very fast, and no warning. That would mean, you would spend more time working with handgun skills. Any scenario, that starts with "Wait a minute while I go get my gun" leaves you at a disadvantage. Tj |
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BUG OUT Life as you know it has changed and rule of law has vanished. You can’t stay home so you must bug out. Load up and head for the hills. Be careful there are looters going home to home. ( With bug out bag in hand approach vehicle, engage targets using your vehicle as cover ) Leave through your back door. Find one BG, engage. Reach back yard gate, see more BGs. Retreat to cover & engage. OP, how about moving targets? Someone said he'd simulated a charging bear with a 50-gallon plastic barrel; he'd pull the barrel toward the shooter with a rope. How about a similar target for BGs/Zeds? Here's another: Seated (in a lawn chair, representing a driver's bucket seat). Plywood cutout of a driver's door. BG pops up; driver must engage one fatal shot for time. ETA Shooting on the Move is always a good drill, if it is OK at your range. Chances are a BG will also have a gun and will shoot you with it; if you can shoot while moving, you have a terrific advantage. |
| Make sure that they do some "battlefield pickup" drills as part of it. Most people are WAAAY to comfortable with whatever they are carrying, alot of them have no idea how to reduce a malfunction or run anything other than their personal weapon. Training should strive for universally applicable techniques etc.....That's why I hate the use of the slide lock to release the slide on auto pistols- they're not all in same place, just over the top the sumbitch and it works for EVERY one ever made. |
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Saddling the shooter with something bulky / heavy they have to carry? Maybe like a really heavy pack and extra clothing, or start with the pistol inside the clothing (if that's legal in the area). Maybe ammunition restrictions like less powder or not as many rounds. You could go full "The Road" and make them take through a grocery cart and a small maniquin that says "papa papa!" in a shrill voice the whole time.
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The road block idea sounds very practical.You could start that stage with people sitting in the passenger seat of a car
and firing at the first 2 or 3 targets from inside the car. Then exit the car and head down range firing up the rest of the targets as they move. Or you drive the shooter to the start point. Once you stop he exits the passenger side to start the course. You can do similar stuff from the bed of a pick up truck as well. You could also try using cars for the hard cover as well. The car would be parked at a 45 to your targets and the shooter would have to fire over the trunk at 2 targets and then move down to the hood and fire at 2 or 3 targets. The shooter could even start the match from the driver seat and have to exit the car to fire on the first targets using the driver door for cover. Just make sure you are using a car that you don't mind getting shot up a bit. For a shoot house idea my range uses orange construction netting stapled to 2x4 frames to form rooms or hallways. Many times you have to fire through a window in the hallway or room to hit your targets. I have seen black plastic sheeting used for walls as well but have never competed in a stage with it used. Also a couple of targets that have to be hit be firing through cover as opposed to firing line of sight would be practical. Old car doors are good for this but you can use anything from black plastic sheeting,blue tarps or plywood and pallets. Most shootouts will happen at night so try to do a few night shoots. If so you could add small fire pits to add to the effect of a SHTF world . Imagine doing the above drills only using the car lights to illuminate your targets or maybe wiring a couple of car lights to face the shooter so all of the targets are back lighted . Finally you could make the shooters run a couple of hundred yards to the target and then fire up the targets once the blood is pumping. Put some obsticalles in there way so it will simulate real life . See whose gear is practical for moving as well as for shooting and see who needs to work on their PT to be combat effective. |
| Good ideas with practical applications. If you do this training event, (I) would stress the fact that your participants while shooting at 'targets' are really practicing to shoot other people. While the event may be 'fun', the mindset really (should) be that they are practicing to engage and either wound or kill others - period. Think military. |
| I did a similar event where the participants had to fight their way to a briefcase and once they had it they could not set it down or let it touch the ground for any reason until they left the "area". Sounds gay when I type it out, but it really threw everyone for a loop! One guy had done almost everything perfect until his pistol ran dry and he set the briefcase down to perform a solid/fast mag change and thus lost the fight. |
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Shooting while moving with 20 pound sand bag to simulate dragging your child
Shooting from a moving vehicle climb over a 6 and 8 foot walls like in your back yard and engage targets shoot a rifle with water mist in your face to simulate rain Set up a shoot back paint ball system to add realism and force real cover sprint and shoot roll over and shoot under a car |
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Defending a stationary structure and/or rescuing a downed family member. Shooter is inside a mock building with windows and a front door. He is seated at a table with his gun in a drawer. His SO steps out to get the mail, and "boom" she is hit. He must engage the closest targets, while retrieving her and returning fire while dragging her back into the house. Once inside, he must move to each window and engage targets which are at various distances, and in various levels of cover. |
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Defending a stationary structure and/or rescuing a downed family member. Shooter is inside a mock building with windows and a front door. He is seated at a table with his gun in a drawer. His SO steps out to get the mail, and "boom" she is hit. He must engage the closest targets, while retrieving her and returning fire while dragging her back into the house. Once inside, he must move to each window and engage targets which are at various distances, and in various levels of cover. Once inside with his wife, does he have the legal right to engage the people outside his house? |
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Quoted: Quoted: Defending a stationary structure and/or rescuing a downed family member. Shooter is inside a mock building with windows and a front door. He is seated at a table with his gun in a drawer. His SO steps out to get the mail, and "boom" she is hit. He must engage the closest targets, while retrieving her and returning fire while dragging her back into the house. Once inside, he must move to each window and engage targets which are at various distances, and in various levels of cover. Once inside with his wife, does he have the legal right to engage the people outside his house? If they are firing at him, yes. |
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Prevent a car jacking with your family in the car.... thru driver window and thru passenger (put dummy SO in passenger seat) Then switch...you are riding shotgun. Zipline moving target? moving targets are better made from 12v garage door openers.....  .....and a folding pipe track.
ETA: and it is remote control... |
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riots, looters... defend yourself and escape. With all of your BO gear on (what you think you will wear) -trying to defend yourself while carrying a 5 gal water jug that you need to get home. (jug could represent, water, fuel, food or any necessity) -maybe throw a baby doll/bag of flour into the mix and the shit is hitting the fan while you are out with your kids, need to defend them.... do not drop -maybe toss in a challenge in the middle of the course that someone has to get something open, cut wood, a lock, fence or something... before continuing on with targets. -have a few targets that represent innocents in the chaos I don't know if this stuff fits IDPA rules.... but its sounds like it could be a lot of fun and a learning experience. |
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Most shootouts will happen at night so try to do a few night shoots. +1 I think darkness is a much underutilized training environment. Even simple scenarios become challenging in low light or when you need to manipulate a flashlight. torch-goggles....shade 5....they also make wrap around glasses... 
it simulates low light very well....but gives the range masters full view of what's going on.... it's not quite night....  ...but for training it helps.
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Most shootouts will happen at night so try to do a few night shoots. +1 I think darkness is a much underutilized training environment. Even simple scenarios become challenging in low light or when you need to manipulate a flashlight. torch-goggles....shade 5....they also make wrap around glasses... http://images.toughweld.com/images/photos/7993/7993_1249-odyssey-ii-shade-5-cutting-goggles_large.jpg it simulates low light very well....but gives the range masters full view of what's going on.... it's not quite night.... ...but for training it helps.That is the best training idea I have seen in years. My sgt. just scheduled me for a firearms instructor nightshoot class next month near St. Louis. This idea will be discussed. I like the safety aspect of it if it is fairly realistic |
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<snip>. That is the best training idea I have seen in years. My sgt. just scheduled me for a firearms instructor nightshoot class next month near St. Louis. This idea will be discussed. I like the safety aspect of it if it is fairly realistic That is a good idea! 
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<snip>. That is the best training idea I have seen in years. My sgt. just scheduled me for a firearms instructor nightshoot class next month near St. Louis. This idea will be discussed. I like the safety aspect of it if it is fairly realistic That is a good idea!
yes i agree. |
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DEAL GONE WRONG You are out bartering for goods when the deal goes bad. ( starting with dominate hand presenting goods, shoot from retention, then engage two targets left and right of center) Be careful on that one. I could picture people lasering themselves if they try to shoot while holding something in front of them. |
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Timed multiple feral dog target 'packs'. Exposure 'pop up" times get shorter, as the dogs converge on the firing point.
Shooting one handed while dragging a mannequin, and wearing a baby mannequin back-pack/belly carrier. Anything else is just a pretext for general combat. SHTF firefights for many, means getting loved ones out of the line of fire from the looties, then engaging from cover. Otherwise, generic limited visibility, degraded mobility and active-shooter response scenarios come to mind. If your looking for a fun "bug-out" theme, make the shooter move to cover, scavenge live rounds mixed in with inert rounds/dummy rounds and use the gun solely assigned to that station. Adding that "sense of urgency" and fine motor control skill to a generally gross motor control event is always a sobering, fun training point too. Good luck! |
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Good ideas with practical applications. If you do this training event, (I) would stress the fact that your participants while shooting at 'targets' are really practicing to shoot other people. While the event may be 'fun', the mindset really (should) be that they are practicing to engage and either wound or kill others - period. Think military. I agree and thats why all the targets will be wearing the size L t-shirts I can no longer fit. The ability to watch you shots won't be an option. Quoted:
I did a similar event where the participants had to fight their way to a briefcase and once they had it they could not set it down or let it touch the ground for any reason until they left the "area". Sounds gay when I type it out, but it really threw everyone for a loop! One guy had done almost everything perfect until his pistol ran dry and he set the briefcase down to perform a solid/fast mag change and thus lost the fight. I like the idea. That will force single hand shooting. Quoted:
Shooting while moving with 20 pound sand bag to simulate dragging your child Kind of did this with a heavier dummy Shooting from a moving vehicle Still something I want to do but can't do it on the range climb over a 6 and 8 foot walls like in your back yard and engage targets We have had a rifle match were you scaled the birm to engage steel out to 600 yards. One of the perks of Iowa being so open and flat shoot a rifle with water mist in your face to simulate rain Set up a shoot back paint ball system to add realism and force real cover sprint and shoot roll over and shoot under a car We do this one often and I love it Quoted:
I don't know if this stuff fits IDPA rules.... but its sounds like it could be a lot of fun and a learning experience. I've been given the green light to bend the rules a bit for the match as long as I type them out as if I was amending the current rules. Quoted:
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DEAL GONE WRONG You are out bartering for goods when the deal goes bad. ( starting with dominate hand presenting goods, shoot from retention, then engage two targets left and right of center) Be careful on that one. I could picture people lasering themselves if they try to shoot while holding something in front of them. No worries, the idea is for them to drop the item being held so they can use that hand to grab their gun. In addition, when we do retention shooting stages we stress the import details to avoid shooting a limb. |
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Most shootouts will happen at night so try to do a few night shoots. +1 I think darkness is a much underutilized training environment. Even simple scenarios become challenging in low light or when you need to manipulate a flashlight. torch-goggles....shade 5....they also make wrap around glasses... http://images.toughweld.com/images/photos/7993/7993_1249-odyssey-ii-shade-5-cutting-goggles_large.jpg it simulates low light very well....but gives the range masters full view of what's going on.... it's not quite night.... ...but for training it helps.I really wanted to do a night shoot but I couldn't get it arranged with the range owner and surrounding property owners. I'll have to swing by HF and see about getting a pair of those. HERE WE GO |
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Most shootouts will happen at night so try to do a few night shoots. +1 I think darkness is a much underutilized training environment. Even simple scenarios become challenging in low light or when you need to manipulate a flashlight. torch-goggles....shade 5....they also make wrap around glasses... http://images.toughweld.com/images/photos/7993/7993_1249-odyssey-ii-shade-5-cutting-goggles_large.jpg it simulates low light very well....but gives the range masters full view of what's going on.... it's not quite night.... ...but for training it helps.I really wanted to do a night shoot but I couldn't get it arranged with the range owner and surrounding property owners. I'll have to swing by HF and see about getting a pair of those. HERE WE GO Keep in mind some people wear prescription glasses. |
| Most of the suggestions here would work just fine at a normal IDPA match. Shooting from a moving vehicle would be a problem, but I've shot a moving target from inside a vehicle before. Every match I've been to, except a classifier, has either a low-light or no-light stage (with flashlights). |
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Most shootouts will happen at night so try to do a few night shoots. +1 I think darkness is a much underutilized training environment. Even simple scenarios become challenging in low light or when you need to manipulate a flashlight. torch-goggles....shade 5....they also make wrap around glasses... http://images.toughweld.com/images/photos/7993/7993_1249-odyssey-ii-shade-5-cutting-goggles_large.jpg it simulates low light very well....but gives the range masters full view of what's going on.... it's not quite night.... ...but for training it helps.There was a brand during the 90's that was sold by places like US Cav and Brigade QM just for that purpose, not entirely a new concept but Im with you on buying cheaper welding stuff to accomplish the same goal. |
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Most shootouts will happen at night so try to do a few night shoots. +1 I think darkness is a much underutilized training environment. Even simple scenarios become challenging in low light or when you need to manipulate a flashlight. torch-goggles....shade 5....they also make wrap around glasses... http://images.toughweld.com/images/photos/7993/7993_1249-odyssey-ii-shade-5-cutting-goggles_large.jpg it simulates low light very well....but gives the range masters full view of what's going on.... it's not quite night.... ...but for training it helps.There was a brand during the 90's that was sold by places like US Cav and Brigade QM just for that purpose, not entirely a new concept but Im with you on buying cheaper welding stuff to accomplish the same goal. it's the same stuff.....I went to a range w/ BIL(sheriffs office) and they had a set of glasses....and was telling me how cool they were.....I pulled out mine and showed them....exact same thing....ANSI rating and shade...  .
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10 targets and 7 bullets. shooting while using the bathroom. shooting at pics of people trying to steal your food to feed their children. shooting a pic of your crippled up best friend because you both agreed not to leave each other for the cannibals shooting foaming mouthed wild domestic animals etc this with at least three body sized targets on a motorized line charging towards you at approx 7mph from 20' away. |
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10 targets and 7 bullets. shooting while using the bathroom. shooting at pics of people trying to steal your food to feed their children. shooting a pic of your crippled up best friend because you both agreed not to leave each other for the cannibals shooting foaming mouthed wild domestic animals etc this with at least three body sized targets on a motorized line charging towards you at approx 7mph from 20' away. well....if you were on the throne with 3 guys rushing you.....you'd be in the right spot..... 
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Good ideas with practical applications. If you do this training event, (I) would stress the fact that your participants while shooting at 'targets' are really practicing to shoot other people. While the event may be 'fun', the mindset really (should) be that they are practicing to engage and either wound or kill others - period. Think military. Train to overcome the psychological roadblock of shooting actual people. To add realism, dress the targets in old shirts and attach photocopies of people's faces onto the heads. The clothing helps to train one to shoot COM rather than focusing on the "A" zone. Clothing should blend into the environment if possible. |