Posted: 3/6/2011 12:42:59 PM EDT
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I apologize in advance if this has already been discussed...
Is it bad to leave a 30rnd Pmag loaded for an extended period of time? I am wanting to have about a dozen loaded at the ready, but don't want to damage or wear out the spring. Would it be better for the spring to only load 20-25rnds? |
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Springs are worn out by compression cycles. You can keep Pmags loaded for several years. Amen 
Here are a couple of pics to illustrate the point: 
The PMags without the Ranger loops have been stored loaded since I bought them in 2009. 
Most of the 20 round USGI mags pictured above have been loaded for well over a decade. I check them a couple of times per year and change out the desiccant. |
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Ditto on the spring compression cycles (loading/unloading) wearing out the springs as a magazine is used. I've had 30 round GI mags loaded for a number of year's and they've worked just fine when I've pulled them out of storage. The ones that ultimately gave me problems were the ones that I repeatedly shot with. Over time, as the springs wore out, I'd replace them and most of the time my malfunctioning mags were back in action.
I have Pmags as well, but personally don't like them as much as I do the GI spec mags. Everyone else seems to swear by them, and that's fine, they just aren't my cup of tea. IIRC, I think the Pmags, if stored loaded, are supposed to be stored with the dust cover/cap that they provide. |
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keeping them loaded, is not supposed to put stress on the springs. its SUPPOSED, to be the constant compressing, and uncompressing of the spring that causes them to wear out. the mag lips can possible become fatigued, which was one reason i think, magpul included the pmag covers. i hate the covers though. i prefere my mags lips/ammo down, to keep out dirt, and you cant do that with the cover, causes it grabs/ snags, the pouch, and i dont want them on the exposed part of the mag, cause then i cant use my magpul, magpul.
you can leave them loaded without fear. although some rotate them. keep 20 mags. 10 loaded for 6 months, then switch the ammo to the 10 extra mags, so the mags dont take a " set".... although i dont think its neccessary. |
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Springs are worn out by compression cycles. You can keep Pmags loaded for several years. Amen
Here are a couple of pics to illustrate the point: http://home.comcast.net/~cjan99999/pmag_storage.jpg The PMags without the Ranger loops have been stored loaded since I bought them in 2009. http://home.comcast.net/~cjan99999/ammo_cans.jpg Most of the 20 round USGI mags pictured above have been loaded for well over a decade. I check them a couple of times per year and change out the desiccant. I can fit 30 Pmags in those same ammo cans instead of 26. Run 2 rows of 13 front to back with room for 4 more down the side. Just saying. 
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Springs are worn out by compression cycles. You can keep Pmags loaded for several years. Amen
Here are a couple of pics to illustrate the point: http://home.comcast.net/~cjan99999/pmag_storage.jpg The PMags without the Ranger loops have been stored loaded since I bought them in 2009. http://home.comcast.net/~cjan99999/ammo_cans.jpg Most of the 20 round USGI mags pictured above have been loaded for well over a decade. I check them a couple of times per year and change out the desiccant. Sow off~~~ 
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Why keep more than a few clips [I mean mags] loaded in the first place? Because when the SHTF at TEOTWAWKI, it's gonna be OMGWTFBBQ and there's no time to load mags while unassing your home to the BOL in the BOV. Off to WallyWorld for some clips then... |
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Why keep more than a few clips [I mean mags] loaded in the first place? Because when the SHTF at TEOTWAWKI, it's gonna be OMGWTFBBQ and there's no time to load mags while unassing your home to the BOL in the BOV. Off to WallyWorld for some clips then... Clips... my God, man... |
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With the Impact/Dust Cover installed loaded storage life of the PMAG is considered indefinite. However, we've had PMAGs fully loaded with no cover on for the last four years and have observed no issues with the feed lips or otherwise. We now consider use of the cover optional. So, while the cover is handy for long term storage to keep junk out and to protect the lips from potential impact damage in transit, its use is not necessary for the health of the mag.
Also to mirror what others have said, a quality spring wears from compression cycles and not constant compression. |
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Why keep more than a few clips [I mean mags] loaded in the first place? Why have a lot of ammo not in mags? About 30% of all the .223 rounds I own are in mags. I have around 150 mags. Is that what you call an "Obsessive Compulsive Magazine Disorder"? 
OCMD -I like it! |
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Why keep more than a few clips [I mean mags] loaded in the first place? Because when the SHTF at TEOTWAWKI, it's gonna be OMGWTFBBQ and there's no time to load mags while unassing your home to the BOL in the BOV. Yeah, load them when you have time to load them. I did a class last fall, and I had 6 or 7 mags. Course said 5, so I was being all fancy having the extra 2. The problem was that during every break, I was frantically reloading them. Next time, I'm showing up w/ about 25. I'll reload them at night, and do something more productive during the breaks, like writing down what I learned. There's no such thing as too many mags. Well, unless you had more mags than ammo, but that could be a not-enough-ammo problem. :) Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Why keep more than a few clips [I mean mags] loaded in the first place? Why have a lot of ammo not in mags? About 30% of all the .223 rounds I own are in mags. I have around 150 mags. Is that what you call an "Obsessive Compulsive Magazine Disorder"?
OCMD -I like it! hell man, i have about 100 5.56/.223 AR mags(probably about 70 or so are pmags) and i've only been in the AR game maybe 5 years and live off a very modest inceome. counting mags and all the other goodies, the guys at magpul get a disproportionatelly large chunk of my earmnings, sometimes i feel like i should be wearing a sandwich sign that reads "will work for polymere", F' it, buy 'em cheap and stack 'em deep... K. |
| I have close to 60 AR mags. between GI aluminum and PMags. I keep the GI mags. loaded with 28rds. and the Pmags loaded with 30rds. Not expecting a fire fight any time soon just don't like loading mags at the range. I do this with all my Glock mags. as well. I have never had a problem with either. |
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I'll give you my take on this.
MIL mags are designed for combat which means very light weight, small as possible size, loading from stripper clips, and after a hell of a lot of rounds fired. They are not necessarily designed for prolonged loaded storage. On the other hand, the Magpuls are not military mags so a totally different application. Their market is not really stripper clip Military ammo cans and prolonged storage loaded very advantageous. I have found both USGI and Magpul spring designs to be within specification. You lose a little spring rate with use and storage but not below functionality over time. The old leave two out insurance in my opinion is just that insurance. Because a life test is a destructive test not every spring is life tested. In fact, none of them are that are in production mags, however spring rate is audited as a minimum and if the spring rate is on and the design is good then they mag should be to spec thus meet life. I don't do the leave 2 our insurance but then can't blame anyone for insurance either. For prolonged loaded mag storage, the Magpuls I store with the clip. Otherwise I store steel USGI mags which do not have the lip deformation over time issue. I will say this though, the aluminum does just fine too. One just has to get into the routine of slamming them home with authority bolt down. This pushes the lips back into proper position. Now this doesn't fit the shoot it till the rifle goes click method but it does the don't let your chamber go empty. Of course, the flip the clip off the Magpul doesn't fit the fast reload methods either. Tj |
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Of course, the flip the clip off the Magpul doesn't fit the fast reload methods either. Tj But, it's not SHTF unless you pop the cover of your PMAGS...
I only have about a half dozen mags I keep NIW and unloaded as "resupply mags" otherwise they are all fully loaded with either range ammo or "duty" ammo. Even with my range mags, why keep them unloaded, it will just detract from time spent shooting...plus, if it comes right down to it, I have no problem using ball ammo to defend myself if that's what's available. |
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Of course, the flip the clip off the Magpul doesn't fit the fast reload methods either. Tj But, it's not SHTF unless you pop the cover of your PMAGS...
I only have about a half dozen mags I keep NIW and unloaded as "resupply mags" otherwise they are all fully loaded with either range ammo or "duty" ammo. Even with my range mags, why keep them unloaded, it will just detract from time spent shooting...plus, if it comes right down to it, I have no problem using ball ammo to defend myself if that's what's available. Well I can write a book on that question. 
First, if you use stripper clips then it only takes seconds to load mags. Second, when talking SHTF unless you envision yourself always at home, mag load outs always come down to how much you can carry and how much you can reasonably shoot at one usage. Once again, bandoliers with stripper clips are easier to carry and weigh less. Carrying ammo cans into combat is not good and best avoided. Thirdly, ammunition stores a lot better in ammo cans not in mags. When your wife is measuring your ammunition in square footage, less space comes in handy. Ammo cans stack very nicely and you can transport more rounds in less space.
Lastly not all of us shoot just this one ammunition made by this one manufacturer and each ammunition has its own ballistic curve thus aiming points. I keep some mags loaded. Some I can tell what ammunition is in there, appearance, some I have to use colored tape to let me know. Knowing your aiming points for your ammunition is a big help in hitting the target. Its pretty much a matter of military thinking versus civilian thinking. If you are going out the door after the bad guys, 2 or three mag pouches on your belt/gear throw a couple bandoliers over your shoulders beats grab a big ass box in one hand or wait a minute while I sort through my box. Tj |
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What type of storage case are those PMags in?? Where can one get them?? Those are Remington brand dry boxes that I found at WalMart. They are just like the green ones in the other pic holding the shotgun shells. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any in quite some time. I've been going crazy trying to find more, both for myself and another SFer. Quoted:
Why keep more than a few clips [I mean mags] loaded in the first place? I do it for two reasons: First off is to save space. The ammo I pictured lives up at the family camp, and it's only a few hundred square feet including the loft. Storage space is at a premium, and items like TP, food, and water take up most of it. The second reason is for carbine classes. It saves a lot of time to have everything pre-loaded before you go. While the other students are reloading I'm still shooting, or getting 1-on-1 help from the instructors. Since the cost of classes has gone up along with everything else it's important to me to make the most of it. For this reason I don't want to lose any time fussing with mags or a fussy weapon. Sometimes people see the pics of all those loaded mags and think I'm harboring some sort of Mad Max, Lord of the Flies Rambo fantasy. Nothing could be further from the truth I harbor no illusions about surviving a protracted gun battle requiring hundreds (or thousands) of rounds. If my cul-de-sac becomes the white trash version of Thunderdome, chances are I'm going to die if I'm still there.
One additional point I'd like to make about the PMag dust covers: While I use the covers for mags loaded for long-term storage, I don't use them for my "bump in the night" defensive mags. At 2AM, the last thing I want to do is screw up and try to jam a PMag into a rifle that is still wearing a dust cover. 
My "Grab and Go" SHTF, OMG the Redcoats are coming bag has two 30 rounders loaded with 75gr TAP and two pistol mags loaded with either RA9T or RA45T (depending on what I'm using for CCW at the moment): 
The extra 3 mag pouch was an experiment for a carbine class-it's normally not present on the bag. The mismatched FAK is a tribute to protus and PA22
ETA: Oh, and in case anyone is curious, the different colored tape indicates different types of ammo
White = 75gr TAP Green = M855 Red = M193 Etc... |
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With the Impact/Dust Cover installed loaded storage life of the PMAG is considered indefinite. However, we've had PMAGs fully loaded for the last four years and have observed no issues with the feed lips or otherwise. We now consider use of the cover optional. So, while the cover is handy for long term storage to keep junk out and to protect the lips from potential impact damage in transit, its use is not necessary for the health of the mag. Also to mirror what others have said, a quality spring wears from compression cycles and not constant compression. Always nice to here the answer straight from the Manufacturer. |
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Quoted: I like where this thread is going!!! I actually label my defensive mags with tape and write T3 or TRU on each one depending on what is there. If a mag has no tape, it's loaded with M193 ball. I had the thought to use different colored pmags for different ammo. Black, Green, Dark Earth/Tan/Coyote/, etc. |
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I like where this thread is going!!!
I actually label my defensive mags with tape and write T3 or TRU on each one depending on what is there. If a mag has no tape, it's loaded with M193 ball. That's a good idea! Glad you approve PA
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Why keep more than a few clips [I mean mags] loaded in the first place? Because when the SHTF at TEOTWAWKI, it's gonna be OMGWTFBBQ and there's no time to load mags while unassing your home to the BOL in the BOV. Yeah, load them when you have time to load them. I did a class last fall, and I had 6 or 7 mags. Course said 5, so I was being all fancy having the extra 2. The problem was that during every break, I was frantically reloading them. Next time, I'm showing up w/ about 25. I'll reload them at night, and do something more productive during the breaks, like writing down what I learned. There's no such thing as too many mags. Well, unless you had more mags than ammo, but that could be a not-enough-ammo problem. :) Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
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Springs are worn out by compression cycles. You can keep Pmags loaded for several years. now don't get me wrong i love the guys show but unforunatelly jack spirko disagrees on this point and stated just the oposite as gospel on his show so we'll be seing and hearing a lot of folks quoting it as such for quite a while... PA22-400 may have to add magazine spring set / memory to his list of survivalists "absolutes"... i'm not active in the forums over there so can someone with some credibility please tell jack that at the very least there is some contention on this matter?.. www.thesurvivalpodcast.com
Episode-624- Listener Feedback 3-15-11 March 15th, 2011 this topic starts @ 17:30 into the episode * Storing loaded magazines, the good, the bad and the ugly "what can happen is as you store them loaded long enough over time the springs basically develope memory and that's basically just a fnacy way to say that they get weaker so their ability to feed rounds into the chamber is deminished. it's not really a problem if you store rounds in magazines and then do a rotation." he goes on to talk about AR magazines and suggests loading a portion of them and rotating which ones are loaded every two weeks to a month and then kinda bags on LEOs for not rotating thier mags. he even suggests that mags that have been loaded for 6 months could / would likely be unreliable... 
hell, maybe in his expierence he's giving factually correct info, this has not been my expierence... K. |
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Why keep more than a few clips [I mean mags] loaded in the first place? Why have a lot of ammo not in mags? About 30% of all the .223 rounds I own are in mags. I have around 150 mags. I think springs in compression loose 'strength' over the years. I just looked at some overhead doors/springs I set the tension on years ago and that have been rarely opened or closed and they definately have lost tension and are now difficult to raise. I'll have to set the tension again. I don't see why mag springs are any different... 
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and i'm not saying they can not weaken over time under compression, i just question wether they will wear out faster under a constant load or during frequent compression cycles...
ETA: it's been my expierence that loaded mags faired just fine under full and near full constant compression for extended periods, in some cases years... K. |
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Why keep more than a few clips [I mean mags] loaded in the first place? Why have a lot of ammo not in mags? About 30% of all the .223 rounds I own are in mags. I have around 150 mags. I think springs in compression loose 'strength' over the years. I just looked at some overhead doors/springs I set the tension on years ago and that have been rarely opened or closed and they definately have lost tension and are now difficult to raise. I'll have to set the tension again. I don't see why mag springs are any different...
Seems like apples to coconuts to me,overhead door springs,really
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Why keep more than a few clips [I mean mags] loaded in the first place? Why have a lot of ammo not in mags? About 30% of all the .223 rounds I own are in mags. I have around 150 mags. I think springs in compression loose 'strength' over the years. I just looked at some overhead doors/springs I set the tension on years ago and that have been rarely opened or closed and they definately have lost tension and are now difficult to raise. I'll have to set the tension again. I don't see why mag springs are any different...
Guess you just want to pass on this one
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Alright guys, here's the skinny. A quality, properly built spring (helical wind with no dip-back, correct material for the application, etc., etc.) utilized within its design parameters will typically take an initial set when new. After that, constant compression will have little effect on the spring but compression cycles (cyclic loading) will cause it to fatigue and loose 'strength'.
Don't know what Jack Spirko is using, but I can say that the USGI-spec passivated stainless steel spring used in the PMAG exhibits the traits noted above (and there are PMAGs that have literally gone multiple tens-of-thousands of rounds). |
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MIL mags are designed for combat which means very light weight, small as possible size, loading from stripper clips, and after a hell of a lot of rounds fired. They are not necessarily designed for prolonged loaded storage. Our mags ARE designed for combat and you can load PMAGs from stripper clips just fine. Quoted:
On the other hand, the Magpuls are not military mags so a totally different application. Their market is not really stripper clip Military ammo cans and prolonged storage loaded very advantageous. Yes and no. There are over a million Magpul mags in use with military personnel around the world. We have multiple NSNs for them as well. Quoted:
For prolonged loaded mag storage, the Magpuls I store with the clip. Otherwise I store steel USGI mags which do not have the lip deformation over time issue. I will say this though, the aluminum does just fine too. One just has to get into the routine of slamming them home with authority bolt down. This pushes the lips back into proper position. Now this doesn't fit the shoot it till the rifle goes click method but it does the don't let your chamber go empty. Of course, the flip the clip off the Magpul doesn't fit the fast reload methods either. PMAGs do not have lip deformation issues either from what we've observed so far. Also, since use of the Impact/Dust Cover is optional, we do not recommend their use on PMAGs in rotation- if you're using them on mags in your web gear you're using them wrong... |
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Justin-Beard,
perhaps a call or email to jack to discuss(and clear up) this issue as well as some additional free advertising(not that most aren't at least somewhat familliar with the magpul name) amongst like preppers might be a good idea. i'd bet he'd be glad to have you on the show for an interview and you could explain the above as well as clear up some of the misnomers floating around about the wide variance in quality of different polymeres and maunfactures, use of polymer accessories as well as parts for firearms and their uses in firearms applications away from the airsoft field, and maybe even the pros and cons of the magpul dynamics videos(and why folks should take good training courses and not just watch the videos even if the videos are better than nothing at all)?.. just a thought... think i'll drop him a link to this thread as well.(what say you jack, a magpul interview show?)... K. |
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One thing to remember when I answer a question like,
"Do loaded magazines weaken over time" I can't answer that as though every person out there is using a P-Mag, I have to answer it for LEOs with both glock factory and cheap ass after market mags, the guy with a Remington 760 and 5 mags his dad bought with the gun in 1972, the with the P-Mags, the guy with USGI Surplus mags circa 1983, the guy with the high point, the guy with the Beretta C9, etc. etc. etc. etc.
Now what I can tell you is I have seen new mags, loaded, left and end up weak. No I have never seen this happen to a P-Mag and I do have about half a dozen that by my own rules are way over do for rotation. I don't expect them to be a problem. I would love to interview someone from Magpul and would be happy to have Justin if he wants to do it. I am really slammed as some of you who listen know with a move right now so we are probably looking at next month. Just remember my answer was a generic one due to how it was asked so I had to answer it as such. Sort of like the way Remington and Winchester only offer quite tame 45-70s because you never know when some fool with an old Spencer is going to drop a round in his priceless rifle and go play buffalo hunter. |
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What type of storage case are those PMags in?? Where can one get them?? Those are Remington brand dry boxes that I found at WalMart. They are just like the green ones in the other pic holding the shotgun shells. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any in quite some time. I've been going crazy trying to find more, both for myself and another SFer. Quoted:
Why keep more than a few clips [I mean mags] loaded in the first place? I do it for two reasons: First off is to save space. The ammo I pictured lives up at the family camp, and it's only a few hundred square feet including the loft. Storage space is at a premium, and items like TP, food, and water take up most of it. The second reason is for carbine classes. It saves a lot of time to have everything pre-loaded before you go. While the other students are reloading I'm still shooting, or getting 1-on-1 help from the instructors. Since the cost of classes has gone up along with everything else it's important to me to make the most of it. For this reason I don't want to lose any time fussing with mags or a fussy weapon. Sometimes people see the pics of all those loaded mags and think I'm harboring some sort of Mad Max, Lord of the Flies Rambo fantasy. Nothing could be further from the truth I harbor no illusions about surviving a protracted gun battle requiring hundreds (or thousands) of rounds. If my cul-de-sac becomes the white trash version of Thunderdome, chances are I'm going to die if I'm still there.
One additional point I'd like to make about the PMag dust covers: While I use the covers for mags loaded for long-term storage, I don't use them for my "bump in the night" defensive mags. At 2AM, the last thing I want to do is screw up and try to jam a PMag into a rifle that is still wearing a dust cover. http://home.comcast.net/~cjan99999/pmag_tape1.jpg My "Grab and Go" SHTF, OMG the Redcoats are coming bag has two 30 rounders loaded with 75gr TAP and two pistol mags loaded with either RA9T or RA45T (depending on what I'm using for CCW at the moment): http://home.comcast.net/~cjan99999/maxpedition_bag.jpg The extra 3 mag pouch was an experiment for a carbine class-it's normally not present on the bag. The mismatched FAK is a tribute to protus and PA22
http://home.comcast.net/~cjan99999/pa_ready_kit.jpg ETA: Oh, and in case anyone is curious, the different colored tape indicates different types of ammo
http://home.comcast.net/~cjan99999/range1.jpg White = 75gr TAP Green = M855 Red = M193 Etc... Hey I know where that bench is at.
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