Posted: 4/12/2010 11:20:24 AM EDT
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So I heard that there are laws that don't ALLOW you to have more than a certain amount of food stored. Is this true?
If so where can I read more a bit this cause it sounds really dumb if it's true. |
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I skimmed that post but most people aren't part of a co-op and can't be caught up in that.
though not exactly food, didn't some guy get arrested in the news for having too much ammunition as that was against the law as well because of some hoarding law? Is there a limit to how much you can store? I can't find the link but I read abit ago that in war time they have gone to hosues say you can only keep so much. |
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Skimming my state code it appears it's possible for your home to be regulated as a "Food Establishment" by one its various definitions:
"A kitchen in a private home where food is prepared or stored for family consumption or in a bed and breakfast home." Uh yeh "A private home that receives catered or home-delivered food" If you ordered in freeze dried food now you have home-delivered food? "The premises of a residence in which honey is stored; prepared; packaged, including by placement in a container; labeled; or from which honey is distributed." So store some honey and now you are regulated? |
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In regard to flammable things––ammo, fuel––there may be fire codes to consider. Your insurance company may have a bit they wish to say about how much flammable stuff you keep too. There are fed rules about how and how much powder you can store. Yeh, I've heard of that as well and have no idea where to get details on that. |
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My personal advise is to not bother worrying about the food. Do take reasonable precautions though.
Use polite discretion––do not tell your thoughtless (bubble-headed-bleached blond) sister-in-law, or her husband, about your preps. Use discrete buying practices––a little here, a little there, slow and steady wins the race. |
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That's the route I'm currently taking as I get going on this process. I've even considered though it's an expense renting a storage spot in a temp controlled location so it's not all sitting in my house.
I did this interesting http://standeyo.com/News_Files/Exec.Orders/EOs.html. |
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What you heard about might be in some of the executive orders presidents put out maybe. I would think google would turn something up. Basically it is stuff that is only going to be considered during martial law times like when they put a curfew in place for all. And lately a lot of states have been passing their own laws to counteract some of that stuff. For instance it used to be common for sales of firearms and ammo to be suspended during martial law stuff but I do believe some states have passed laws saying they will allow firearms and ammo to still be sold during those times. Kind of like how some states said they would not confiscate firearms after the katrina fiasco with a few firearms confiscations. As far as too much ammo, this is harder to find in some areas. I think for my area of tn I would be best off calling the local fire department and finding out if they have or know of limits. I know when storing black powder you wind up needing a properly setup storage system for it, but I don't store blackpowder so I am not positive what you would need. And even if you find out the firedepartment has limits a lot of folks don't feel like they need to follow limits set by the firedepartment. This comes up when talking about fuel storage as well. I don't know of any law set by the feds about how much ammo I can have. I don't know any law set by my state about ammo storage. But get into towns or fire departments and you might find limits set by somebody. |
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In regard to flammable things––ammo, fuel––there may be fire codes to consider. Your insurance company may have a bit they wish to say about how much flammable stuff you keep too. There are fed rules about how and how much powder you can store. My understanding is that the federal regulations regarding storage of powder appily to black powder and other explosive material. Black powder is considered a low explosive under the law. Smokeless powder is considered a propellant and does not fall under these regulations. Primers may, I am not sure. I believe that there is a 50 pound limit, before you need to manufacture special lockers or bunkers for storage. This is only my understanding of the law, don't count on it 100%. edited to add, no weight limit that I know of for manufactured ammunition. |
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Skimming my state code it appears it's possible for your home to be regulated as a "Food Establishment" by one its various definitions: "A kitchen in a private home where food is prepared or stored for family consumption or in a bed and breakfast home." Uh yeh "A private home that receives catered or home-delivered food" If you ordered in freeze dried food now you have home-delivered food? "The premises of a residence in which honey is stored; prepared; packaged, including by placement in a container; labeled; or from which honey is distributed." So store some honey and now you are regulated? It means if you are cooking shit and delivering it to people to eat " home delivered" not if you order a pizza or a #10 can of beef stew..... loosen up the tinfoil dude |
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In regard to flammable things––ammo, fuel––there may be fire codes to consider. Your insurance company may have a bit they wish to say about how much flammable stuff you keep too. There are fed rules about how and how much powder you can store. My understanding is that the federal regulations regarding storage of powder appily to black powder and other explosive material. Black powder is considered a low explosive under the law. Smokeless powder is considered a propellant and does not fall under these regulations. Primers may, I am not sure. I believe that there is a 50 pound limit, before you need to manufacture special lockers or bunkers for storage. This is only my understanding of the law, don't count on it 100%. edited to add, no weight limit that I know of for manufactured ammunition. Smokeless powder is regulated, and IIRC, there are requirements for commercial storage. I don't recall reading anything about storage requirements in a private residence, but local laws would probably be more relevant anyway. *It's possible I misread the applicable stuff on the ATF website, check for yourself to be sure.* |
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Quoted: Quoted: In regard to flammable things––ammo, fuel––there may be fire codes to consider. Your insurance company may have a bit they wish to say about how much flammable stuff you keep too. There are fed rules about how and how much powder you can store. Yeh, I've heard of that as well and have no idea where to get details on that. Powder company reloading books have the info in them. I think it's 8 pounds in an approved storage container. |
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wow What? I can't believe there are laws on hording/prepping/thinking ahead/.... just wow IF and this is a big IF there are laws against hoarding food, then the laws have been obscured in the fine print and not enforced. IF there were such laws and the .gov wanted to make an issue of them, then we would see headlines about folks getting arrested for having a fridge fully stocked. Read the thread the only rules that we know of are for storing flammables. |
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wow What? I can't believe there are laws on hording/prepping/thinking ahead/.... just wow IF and this is a big IF there are laws against hoarding food, then the laws have been obscured in the fine print and not enforced. IF there were such laws and the .gov wanted to make an issue of them, then we would see headlines about folks getting arrested for having a fridge fully stocked. Read the thread the only rules that we know of are for storing flammables. If anyone has the free time, I'd be interesting in knowing if such a law or laws exist. It really wouldn't surprise me. |
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wow What? I can't believe there are laws on hording/prepping/thinking ahead/.... just wow IF and this is a big IF there are laws against hoarding food, then the laws have been obscured in the fine print and not enforced. IF there were such laws and the .gov wanted to make an issue of them, then we would see headlines about folks getting arrested for having a fridge fully stocked. Read the thread the only rules that we know of are for storing flammables. If anyone has the free time, I'd be interesting in knowing if such a law or laws exist. It really wouldn't surprise me. There may not be a law that mentions food, but there may be laws that are general enough that anything that the officer wants can be taken. Ricco act comes to mind. |
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We have so many Local, State and Federal Laws on the books that it's impossible to know what may or may not be illegal. Many old laws are still on the books despite being irrelevent in 2010. Hell, according to some people Congress has unrestricted power to legislate everything in America due to the Commerce Clause of the Constitution. I don't believe that hoarding is illegal under current law if you bought your food before a disaster strikes but I'm not a lawyer. That's just my belief.
Let's say however that "Hoarding" food is not illegal under any definition of the law. It doesn't matter in an emergency because the government (Local, State or Federal) will do what they want and you can address it in court at a latter date if you have the desire to spend $20,000 to make your point. We saw this in New Orleans in regards to guns. Government never goes away. It didn't go away during the Great Depression or the hyper infationary period of the 1930's in Germany. It didn't go away after the Cold War in Russia or in Mozabique today. The same can be said for Argentina during their meltdown. Someone in government will have a vested interest in being at the top of the food chain. If this means siezing privately owned food during a crisis then it will happen. Guess what....if it happens you will not be private citizen that happened to stock up during times of plenty. You will be a HOARDER. You will be demonized just as many business owners and wealthy people are today. It will be said that you are greedy and growing fat while women and children starve. The propaganda machine will roll and those grasshoppers that bought big tv's and expensive rims will KNOW that you are taking food out of their mouths. It doesn't matter what is legal in regards to the government doing what it wants. If you have preps then keep it to yourself or you will lose them or lose your life or freedom defending them. It's sad but true. |
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Quoted: Flaged for racism!My personal advise is to not bother worrying about the food. Do take reasonable precautions though. Use polite discretion––do not tell your thoughtless (bubble-headed-bleached blond) sister-in-law, or her husband, about your preps. Use discrete buying practices––a little here, a little there, slow and steady wins the race.  |
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Flaged for racism!My personal advise is to not bother worrying about the food. Do take reasonable precautions though. Use polite discretion––do not tell your thoughtless (bubble-headed-bleached blond) sister-in-law, or her husband, about your preps. Use discrete buying practices––a little here, a little there, slow and steady wins the race.
Good catch. 
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| Here in Idaho and in Utah also, there is a law that specifically protects the individual's right to store as much food as they want. In fact, a year and a half ago when Sam's club was limiting bulk purchases of rice, etc, there was a news report on the state law that forbid Sam's from limiting purchase amounts here. I don't agree with government regulating business practices, but in Idaho and Utah, you cannot restrict purchase amounts on regularly priced food items (sale price items can have restrictions). |
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So I heard that there are laws that don't ALLOW you to have more than a certain amount of food stored. Is this true? If so where can I read more a bit this cause it sounds really dumb if it's true. Well, it is dumb. To be honest, if your neighbors know enough about your stash to rat you out then you will have to worry about them looooooong before the Food Police come and seize your larder. Better to not let anyone know you have something worth taking. It's going to be bad enough when other people notice you aren't losing weight like they are. |
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The discreet prepper keeps his/her mouth shut about what they have done, or have.
Don't discuss your preps with your co workers or neighbors. Don't take pictures of your preps and post them for the world to 'critique'. If 'hording' is not illegal now, you can bet it WILL be before too long. |
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though not exactly food, didn't some guy get arrested in the news for having too much ammunition as that was against the law as well because of some hoarding law? IIRC, there was a video posted about a recent case in the socialist republik of Massachusetts. the talking heads (reporters) said the amount of ammunition was "against the law", but nobody ever cited WHAT law it was violating. he was also shooting in his attic, or something. in short, he was NOT discrete, scared the wife and she called the cops... or something like that. they showed his stuff on TV. a little of this, a little of that, i know lots of people who own lots more. don't know any who live in MA. in the end, i lost track of the issue, but didn't hear of any charges being filed. don't shoot in the attic where other tenants can hear you. don't draw attention. do NOT scare the wife! if you want to discuss stuff here, great. but know that if someone with enough power wanted too, they could trace the IP address you're posting from and knock on your door. showing/discussing preps can be great because it motivates some people and gives other people ideas that they might be able to use in their preps. but don't be stupid whit things you discuss or whow. there's *some* anonymity here, but as mentioned above, talking to your neighbors, FAMILY or co workers is probably a BAD idea. IF you're LDS and discussing it with a group from your church it might be a little different, but i still wouldn't put all my cards on the table. i've known some Mormons who only prepped half heatedly, and many who didn't prep at all and were fairly bad eggs. |
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 I grew up thinking of America as the home of the free....
The older I get, the more I come to realize we ain't even close. Well, be that as it may, is there another country that you consider more free? If not, then I guess we're relatively as free as it gets ... which sucks, as I certainly don't feel that free in the northeast. |
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I grew up thinking of America as the home of the free....
The older I get, the more I come to realize we ain't even close. Well, be that as it may, is there another country that you consider more free? If not, then I guess we're relatively as free as it gets ... which sucks, as I certainly don't feel that free in the northeast. As free as it gets, I agree. But losing it all the same. 
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Even if you don't tell anyone, there are ways that they can find out. Even if you pay cash and tell nobody. A service worked might see it, and assume that there's been a meltdown. The S has hit the fan. The End might be here. Martial Law is here for a period. They WILL knock on your door and demand to see that you aren't hoarding.
People make the mistake of thinking they can be safe, hole up in their own house with guns and ammo to defend against roving bands. Well you can't resist government and live to tell if they don't want you to. Government can knock on your door and inform you that you are in a mandatory evacuation zone. Game over. |
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Even if you don't tell anyone, there are ways that they can find out. Even if you pay cash and tell nobody. A service worked might see it, and assume that there's been a meltdown. The S has hit the fan. The End might be here. Martial Law is here for a period. They WILL knock on your door and demand to see that you aren't hoarding. People make the mistake of thinking they can be safe, hole up in their own house with guns and ammo to defend against roving bands. Well you can't resist government and live to tell if they don't want you to. Government can knock on your door and inform you that you are in a mandatory evacuation zone. Game over. Looks like they have trained you well. be sure to say "Hi" to your new overlords for me! 
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Even if you don't tell anyone, there are ways that they can find out. Even if you pay cash and tell nobody. A service worked might see it, and assume that there's been a meltdown. The S has hit the fan. The End might be here. Martial Law is here for a period. They WILL knock on your door and demand to see that you aren't hoarding. People make the mistake of thinking they can be safe, hole up in their own house with guns and ammo to defend against roving bands. Well you can't resist government and live to tell if they don't want you to. Government can knock on your door and inform you that you are in a mandatory evacuation zone. Game over. They can TRY whatever they like. |
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I remember reading about a Dr. and his wife who were imprisoned during WWI for hoarding food. They had a lot of food stockpiled fout of a sense of preparedness and maybe some religious tenet, I think. They found out about the new law and ASKED THE AUTHORITIES what to do with their food stocks. As a result they were raided, arrested, and imprisoned for a year for their "crime". To the best of my recollection this allegedly happened in the USA in a yankee state like Ohio or Pennsylvania. YMMV
If the govt or anyone else is coming around demanding to inspect or confiscate your food it's high time to fire up the backhoe and start filling those prestaged holes. |
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Skimming my state code it appears it's possible for your home to be regulated as a "Food Establishment" by one its various definitions: "A kitchen in a private home where food is prepared or stored for family consumption or in a bed and breakfast home." Uh yeh "A private home that receives catered or home-delivered food" If you ordered in freeze dried food now you have home-delivered food? "The premises of a residence in which honey is stored; prepared; packaged, including by placement in a container; labeled; or from which honey is distributed." So store some honey and now you are regulated? They gotcha now.......no more pizza delivery...could be a sting.... |
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They can TRY whatever they like. lets not turn this into a "cold dead hands" thread. there is the possibility for some good and relevent information here. i for one am going to try to find some info on this topic as i believe that i heard about "hoarding after a disaster, and food "reallocation" " |
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i wasn't able to find any laws. but there are quite a few "Executive Orders" regarding what the .gov can seize. here is a list that have to do with seizure and FEMA control during times of "Nat'l Emergency"
i pulled the list from here "So Where Do Anti-Hoarding Laws Come In? These ideas of anti-hoarding legislation may have stemmed from two areas of confusion: First is from Executive Orders in place dating back to 1939 which Clinton has grouped together under one order, EO #12919 released on June 6, 1994. The following EOs all fall under EO#12919: 10995––Federal seizure of all communications media in the US; 10997––Federal seizure of all electric power, fuels, minerals, public and private; 10998––Federal seizure of all food supplies and resources, public and private and all farms and equipment; 10999––Federal seizure of all means of transportation, including cars, trucks, or vehicles of any kind and total control over all highways, seaports and water ways; 11000––Federal seizure of American people for work forces under federal supervision, including the splitting up of families if the government so desires; 11001––Federal seizure of all health, education and welfare facilities, both public and private; 11002––Empowers the Postmaster General to register every single person in the US 11003––Federal seizure of all airports and aircraft; 11004––Federal seizure of all housing and finances and authority to establish forced relocation. Authority to designate areas to be abandoned as "unsafe," establish new locations for populations, relocate communities, build new housing with public funds; 11005––Seizure of all railroads, inland waterways and storage facilities, both public and private; 11051––Provides FEMA complete authorization to put above orders into effect in times of increased international tension of economic or financial crisis (FEMA will be in control incase of "National Emergency"). " |
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Skimming my state code it appears it's possible for your home to be regulated as a "Food Establishment" by one its various definitions: "A kitchen in a private home where food is prepared or stored for family consumption or in a bed and breakfast home." Uh yeh "A private home that receives catered or home-delivered food" If you ordered in freeze dried food now you have home-delivered food? "The premises of a residence in which honey is stored; prepared; packaged, including by placement in a container; labeled; or from which honey is distributed." So store some honey and now you are regulated? They gotcha now.......no more pizza delivery...could be a sting.... Yeh I may have been reading into that more that I thought. Either away I think the best advice is it keep shut on whatever you got and don't let it be known especially in a state of emergency. |
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In regard to flammable things––ammo, fuel––how much flammable stuff you keep too. There are fed rules about how and how much powder you can store. My local city limits me to less than 3000 gallons of gasoline without a permit - which they don't issue in areas zoned residential. My vehicles have upto 50 gallons in their tanks so I make sure my storage doesn't exceed 2950 gallons. There are limits on shipping powder/primers but I know of nothing for storage. I bought down 1800 pounds of guns and ammo as weighed for my military travel claim. I figure 200-300 pounds of that was guns. |
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Storage requirements according to Alliant's website.
10-3.7 Smokeless propellants intended for personal use in quantities not exceeding 20 lb (9.1 kg) may be stored in original containers in residences. Quantities exceeding 20 lb (9.1 kg), but not exceeding 50 lb (22.7 kg), may be stored in residences if kept in a wooden box or cabinet having walls or at least 1-inc. (25.4-mm) nominal thickness.
I looked up the NFPA code on this and it is the same. Over 50# and you are supposed to have it in a different type of wooden box |
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Even if you don't tell anyone, there are ways that they can find out. Even if you pay cash and tell nobody. A service worked might see it, and assume that there's been a meltdown. The S has hit the fan. The End might be here. Martial Law is here for a period. They WILL knock on your door and demand to see that you aren't hoarding. People make the mistake of thinking they can be safe, hole up in their own house with guns and ammo to defend against roving bands. Well you can't resist government and live to tell if they don't want you to. Government can knock on your door and inform you that you are in a mandatory evacuation zone. Game over. I agree. Here's something I bet some haven't thought of. How many of your kids friends have seen some of your preps? It's hard to keep a large stockpile of preps entirely secret from everyone. |
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Quoted: That's the route I'm currently taking as I get going on this process. I've even considered though it's an expense renting a storage spot in a temp controlled location so it's not all sitting in my house. I did this interesting http://standeyo.com/News_Files/Exec.Orders/EOs.html. Bad Idea!!!! How would you get to it if everything goes to hades in a handbag in a day or 2? The only out of house storage you should do is on land/building you own and can control access to. It's harder to do than it sounds. |
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Quoted: Kids need to learn OPSEC. That, and it shouldn't be much of a concern of theirs that they share with friends. My kids think everyone has pantry's full like ours. And pails stuffed with chow in the corners, and closets full of K-rats. When they think that it is normal , they would mention it as quickly as they would "we have several towels in the linen closet."Quoted: Even if you don't tell anyone, there are ways that they can find out. Even if you pay cash and tell nobody. A service worked might see it, and assume that there's been a meltdown. The S has hit the fan. The End might be here. Martial Law is here for a period. They WILL knock on your door and demand to see that you aren't hoarding. People make the mistake of thinking they can be safe, hole up in their own house with guns and ammo to defend against roving bands. Well you can't resist government and live to tell if they don't want you to. Government can knock on your door and inform you that you are in a mandatory evacuation zone. Game over. I agree. Here's something I bet some haven't thought of. How many of your kids friends have seen some of your preps? It's hard to keep a large stockpile of preps entirely secret from everyone. |