Posted: 6/24/2009 4:23:58 AM EDT
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Very interesting info from a guy in CA who installed a system, including his last year's monthly usage, savings, costs, ROI, etc.
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2349173,00.asp |
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That guy pays A LOT in electricity.
My highest electric bill (2400sq ft house for 14 years) has only been $130 (A/C running in July). But my normal amount runs $65 a month. I looked into a solar system a couple of years ago, and spending $30,000 for a system that would run my home, does not make financial sense right now. I just cannot justify it in my mind, after all even if my electric bill was $100 a month, it would take 25 years to equal that $30,000. |
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Quoted: That guy pays A LOT in electricity. My highest electric bill (2400sq ft house for 14 years) has only been $130 (A/C running in July). But my normal amount runs $65 a month. You have a very good home then. Cooply, ridge vents, soffit vents, brick vents, and wall air gap? |
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Quoted:
That guy pays A LOT in electricity. My highest electric bill (2400sq ft house for 14 years) has only been $130 (A/C running in July). But my normal amount runs $65 a month. I looked into a solar system a couple of years ago, and spending $30,000 for a system that would run my home, does not make financial sense right now. I just cannot justify it in my mind, after all even if my electric bill was $100 a month, it would take 25 years to equal that $30,000. And depending on where you live, the probability of significant wind/storm/hail damage to your solar panels within 25 years (not counting panel-life and the slow efficiency loss) starts to approach 100%. When polymer thin-film panels can be printed like paper and just roll off a press in continuous sheets, then the whole economics of this will change. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
That guy pays A LOT in electricity. My highest electric bill (2400sq ft house for 14 years) has only been $130 (A/C running in July). But my normal amount runs $65 a month. You have a very good home then. Cooply, ridge vents, soffit vents, brick vents, and wall air gap? Cooply - not sure what this is. ridge vents - no, but I have the roof vent things. soffit vents - Yes all the way around brick vents - yes wall air gap - not sure on this one. I also have many large shade trees that help keep the sun off of the roof, except from 1100 to 1300 hours. |
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And depending on where you live, the probability of significant wind/storm/hail damage to your solar panels within 25 years (not counting panel-life and the slow efficiency loss) starts to approach 100%. Wow. And you are speaking from firsthand experience here? Solar has enough strikes against it without having to make up more. I've been running PV for 21 years now in tornado alley and thus far I've never had any damage to the arrays that you mention. For most people, that type of damage can be covered by their insurance (me, I live to far away from the road to get insurance). |
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Folks are used to the thin little solar panels in calculators and such so they think ALL panels are easily broken. This is incorrect. We have had quarter size hail here, winds in excess of 60 mph and never had a problem with our panels from that. Laying them on the ground I've STOOD on them before. Their is video of me beating on a panel at our hunt camp at the link in my signature line- Alternate Energy video #6 IIRC.
They are a LOT more durable than people realize. You don't get off grid just for the savings, you do it for the independence. We have had our system online almost a decade and are likely fairly close to "breaking even", but that wasn't my biggest concern. Lowdown3 |
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My numbers are far easier to pay off - a $30K system provide 8,000-10,000 watts per hour. I don't run my AC but a couple of hours a day as living out in the desert we take advantage of the cool nights and use a 40 watt whole house fan that paid for itself in the first month of use. I'm looking at a system about 3.2 to 4.0 Kw which would take me 90% off the grid - that last 10% remains so that I don't have to manage the coordination of my appliances nor bother with a bigger UPS battery bank. That 3.2K to 4.0Kw system will run me about $9000-$12,000 in materials, I'm checking with the city to see if I need a permit/licensed contractor to install the 16-24 forty pound panels on the roof or not. My pay back will be about 5 to 7 years - and that's not accounting for higher resale value of the system when I sell my house.
I've said this before here, in this forum people aren't buy MREs and Mountain House freeze dried because it's cheaper than buying fresh or even taking the family out - they're doing it to be independent - or "off the grid" as we say with electrical power. My grid tie system will allow me to spin my meter backwards and then allow it to run forwards when my wife is cooking in the microwave, running a load in the washing machine and dryer, and let the AC kick in too. But if the power grid drops the system trips and I'm stand-alone with 3.2K W of power and that's going to do any one of those tasks with ease - not as convent but still possible. I'm not looking at solar to save the planet or to save money but rather to gain me some relief and self-reliance when and if the grid ever goes down. If it saves the planet yippee! If it cuts my electric bill by 75-90% across the year oh joy. Those that live completely off-grid and want the convince of running everything at once are going to have to put a much bigger system in - if you're spending $30,000 you ought to come out with a 10-14 KW system after rebates and taxes. That's 50-70 panels and I know my home or yard doesn't have room for that many! I've been pricing 16-24 panel systems which would cover my south facing roof and the equipment is running about $3.82 a watt prior to rebates and tax savings. Another site has a 4Kw system at $12,160 following rebates/credits or $3.04 per watt. http://www.dmsolar.com/solar-gridtie-system.html http://partsonsale.com/solarhomekits.html |
+$1300 a month in electrical power 
I come closer to that a year than a month! My worst bills in the peak of summer run around $300 to $350 depending on how many +110 degree days we get. On those rare days the evening temperatures don't drop down to comfortable until too late at night so we run the AC in the master bedroom to keep cool enough. |
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Quoted:
And depending on where you live, the probability of significant wind/storm/hail damage to your solar panels within 25 years (not counting panel-life and the slow efficiency loss) starts to approach 100%. When polymer thin-film panels can be printed like paper and just roll off a press in continuous sheets, then the whole economics of this will change. The panels that I've been looking at have hail stone survival and meet the Florida state requirements for hurricane damage resistance when installed with their track system. The panels I've seen are also guaranteed at 25 years to still be producing 80% of their power. So some time before 25 years you're going to have to throw some additional capacity into the system. The thin film panels do show lots of promise but I don't think I'm going to wait the years before they become productive. |
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Quoted:
My numbers are far easier to pay off - a $30K system provide 8,000-10,000 watts per hour. I don't run my AC but a couple of hours a day as living out in the desert we take advantage of the cool nights and use a 40 watt whole house fan that paid for itself in the first month of use. I'm looking at a system about 3.2 to 4.0 Kw which would take me 90% off the grid - that last 10% remains so that I don't have to manage the coordination of my appliances nor bother with a bigger UPS battery bank. That 3.2K to 4.0Kw system will run me about $9000-$12,000 in materials, I'm checking with the city to see if I need a permit/licensed contractor to install the 16-24 forty pound panels on the roof or not. My pay back will be about 5 to 7 years - and that's not accounting for higher resale value of the system when I sell my house. I've said this before here, in this forum people aren't buy MREs and Mountain House freeze dried because it's cheaper than buying fresh or even taking the family out - they're doing it to be independent - or "off the grid" as we say with electrical power. My grid tie system will allow me to spin my meter backwards and then allow it to run forwards when my wife is cooking in the microwave, running a load in the washing machine and dryer, and let the AC kick in too. But if the power grid drops the system trips and I'm stand-alone with 3.2K W of power and that's going to do any one of those tasks with ease - not as convent but still possible. I'm not looking at solar to save the planet or to save money but rather to gain me some relief and self-reliance when and if the grid ever goes down. If it saves the planet yippee! If it cuts my electric bill by 75-90% across the year oh joy. Those that live completely off-grid and want the convince of running everything at once are going to have to put a much bigger system in - if you're spending $30,000 you ought to come out with a 10-14 KW system after rebates and taxes. That's 50-70 panels and I know my home or yard doesn't have room for that many! I've been pricing 16-24 panel systems which would cover my south facing roof and the equipment is running about $3.82 a watt prior to rebates and tax savings. Another site has a 4Kw system at $12,160 following rebates/credits or $3.04 per watt. http://www.dmsolar.com/solar-gridtie-system.html http://partsonsale.com/solarhomekits.html this i will buy |
| It is going to be a long time before solar pays back in a reasonable amount of time for most of the US. WInd makes great sense some places and small hydro could work if you have decent running water on your property. No matter what it's a 10 year payback which is tough for an individual. |
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It is going to be a long time before solar pays back in a reasonable amount of time for most of the US. WInd makes great sense some places and small hydro could work if you have decent running water on your property. No matter what it's a 10 year payback which is tough for an individual. I remember someone saying something like, you can open a Coal fired power plant, but you will go bankrupt paying for the carbon credits from green house emissions. Obiwan is going to push utilities through the roof, along with gasoline prices. These nutjobs are going to force us into those coufins they call cars, higher taxes, fees, etc etc... utilities, gas, diesel, you name it. Doesn't anyone see the light, they are offering tax incentives for turning in older cars, of which I read some where they can be 1 year old. GM, Chrysler will produce the cars they are told to. If I see the government going after Ford like in the great depression, I will sell my Jeep Wrangler Rubicon and buy a Ford. At least they have the balls to tell the govt to go screw themselves. Solar will become cheaper, because the other means of power generation will be driven higher and higher. Cap and Trade. Next time you hear someone bitch about things, ask them who they voted for. If they said no one, tell them next time to get off their fat lazy asses. Barnum Bailey was proven right in November 2008. State Obama/Biden McCain/Palin AL 813479 1266546 AK 123594 193841 AZ 1034707 1230111 AR 422310 638017 CA 8274473 5011781 CO 1288576 1073589 CT 997763 629428 DE 255459 152374 DC 245800 17367 FL 4282074 4045624 GA 1844137 2048744 HI 325871 120566 ID 236440 403012 IL 3419673 2031527 IN 1374039 1345648 IA 828940 682379 KS 514765 699655 KY 751985 1048462 LA 782989 1148275 ME 421923 295273 MD 1629467 959862 MA 1904097 1108854 MI 2872579 2048639 MN 1573354 1275409 MS 554662 724597 MO 1441911 1445814 MT 231667 242763 NE 333319 452979 NV 533736 412827 NH 384826 316534 NJ 2215422 1613207 NM 472422 346832 NY 4610809 2409077 NC 2142651 2128474 ND 141278 168601 OH 2933388 2674491 OK 502496 960165 OR 1037291 738475 PA 3276363 2651812 RI 296571 165391 SC 862449 1034896 SD 170924 203054 TN 1087437 1479178 TX 3528633 4479328 UT 327670 596030 VT 219262 98974 VA 1959532 1725005 WA 1750848 1229216 WV 303857 397466 WI 1677211 1262393 WY 82868 164958 Totals 69297997 59597520 361226 523253 47700 159889 590101 455113 131032799 |
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Quoted: +$1300 a month in electrical power I come closer to that a year than a month! My worst bills in the peak of summer run around $300 to $350 depending on how many +110 degree days we get. On those rare days the evening temperatures don't drop down to comfortable until too late at night so we run the AC in the master bedroom to keep cool enough. I think you read that wrong...it was 1300+ KWh at a cost of $333 that month (December). |
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The part about solar being for independance and not about payoff is 100% correct in my case.
I finally got myself a nice little quiet generator and now I can start looking for batteries and a couple panels as well. I will use the system at home but eventually plan to build a small camper and will integrate it into that or just make another system at that point. While tn has cheap power for the most part my town keeps jacking costs up and with obama talking cap and tax I want to start moving some of my stuff to solar so I can get an education on solar and be better setup for when the grid goes down. I don't plan to run my place on solar, it would be a pain to redo the building anyway. But I have been looking at some options and need to get some light measurements to be sure, but I think I can run a couple things on solar and drop my grid electric bill down considerably. I want the education now because I think the future is going to require me to know what other options I have besides grid power. |
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That guy pays A LOT in electricity. My highest electric bill (2400sq ft house for 14 years) has only been $130 (A/C running in July). But my normal amount runs $65 a month. I looked into a solar system a couple of years ago, and spending $30,000 for a system that would run my home, does not make financial sense right now. I just cannot justify it in my mind, after all even if my electric bill was $100 a month, it would take 25 years to equal that $30,000. And depending on where you live, the probability of significant wind/storm/hail damage to your solar panels within 25 years (not counting panel-life and the slow efficiency loss) starts to approach 100%. When polymer thin-film panels can be printed like paper and just roll off a press in continuous sheets, then the whole economics of this will change. Care to cite some facts for your claim? Most modern panels have a warranty covering efficiency (i.e. 25 year warranty guaranteeing output will be with 5% of nameplate rating). Hail, wind/etc are all legitimate concerns, but you are WAY overblowing (pun!) them. My arrays regularly survive golf ball sized hail and are rated for 130mph exposure B. I can't make a claim for PV based on economics alone unless you let fedzilla get involved, but the statements above fly in the face of dozens of installations along the colorado front range that I've been involved with. Also, the $100/month -> 30 year analysis above is pretty errant - The utility bill won't be $100/month for the next 30 years, guaranteed. (Especially if Cap' N' Trade gets passed). Also, right now, you get some of your tax money back (30%) from fedzilla, so your investment is really 20k. Factor in even basic, non-zimbabwe inflation, and pretend that electricity won't have other market forces pushing it up, and the justification gets closer, but perhaps still out there for some people. Most of the survival types I know who have the means are doing it now as a mitigation for cap-n-trade and inflation. |