Posted: 2/12/2009 2:03:34 PM EDT
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First let me say I love the AR system. I have trained with one for years in my civilian job and use an M-16 in the military. I love the platform and I am quite proficient with one. I shot a Saiga (308) the other day, the first "AK" I have shot. When I got around to cleaning it I was impressed how easy it was to clean. I was cleaning an AR at the same time and the difference in time was significant. My thought was maybe I should get a Saiga in 223 for the following reasons:
-In a SHTF situation I think it would be easier to keep an AK running efficiently over and AR. Yes I know I am going to be swamped with responses about how easy AR's are to keep clean and running but from my own experience it takes a lot of time to keep them clean and you might not have that kind of time in a true SHTF. It is true AKs handle dirty conditions better than ARs (I am an AR guy but I can admit that). -223 because the price of 7.62 x 39 is reaching the same as 223. When I priced reloading supplies for 223 it was cheaper than 7.62 x 39. There is a large amount of local produced 223. It should be available here for quite a while. Reports I have read indicate that AKs/Saigas will eat any type of ammo, brass steel it does not matter. I know it will not be as accurate as an AR. But from what I have read the accuracy is pretty good in the Saiga. I also know that magazines will be a lot harder to come by if I need more so I would have to stock up on a lot now. For the price of an AR now I can get a Saiga with 10 30 round mags and 1000 rounds of ammo and have change left over. I am now wearing my flame suit so tell me what you think. So which do you think would be better in a serious SHTF. I know I will get a bunch of crap about ARs being the only true gun etc... I welcome your opinions just back the up with good reasons. |
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I have no opinion on your Saiga vs AR question. I do however have a VERY strong opinion that the vast majority of us (well, civilians anyway) over clean our ARs-frequently to the detriment of their reliability.
If you haven't yet done so, read this http://www.ar15.com/content/swat/keepitrunning.pdf Oh, and thank you for your service 
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I am by no means an expert of the AR platform, so I'll leave that to those more knowledgable and proficient than myself.
Having personally done my own Saiga .223 conversion I am familiar enough to make a few comments. First, I recommend converting the Saiga to pistol grip configuration unless you buy one that's already converted for you. The stock trigger on a Saiga isn't very good. Moving the trigger forward to where it belongs and putting in even a basic Tapco FCG makes a big improvement to the trigger. Here's a good site on how to do it. http://www.cross-conn.com/Saiga_Conversion/ Second, buy a bullet guide/feed ramp from Dinzig on Saiga12 forums. I used the one he sells and have had zero feeding issues. The only time the Saiga failed to feed correctly happened when a friend of mine was shooting with me and he didn't insert the magazine in all the way. For mags I recommend the orlite Galil mags. Once you have your bullet guide installed the galil mags work terrific with minimal alterations (just a little bit of material filed off). Make sure your parts count is correct (5 US parts or 6 US parts if you add a muzzle device) and the Saiga is a terrific .223 AK variant. As for the practicality of the Saiga, if you're comfortable with AK ergonomics then you're good to go. It may not be exactly on par with an AR but it is accurate. It has a chromed barrel and is AK reliable. It comes with the optics mount already installed so if you can add optics as you see fit. In an SHTF scenario it is hardy like any other AK, except it uses .223 and it won't be finicky about feeding whatever .223/5.56 ammo that you feed it. My only complaint is the AK safety, but there are aftermarket safety options that can improve it. |
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I'm not a AR fan. I am a big m14 fan, and have a couple m14 type rifles. I have played around with the Ruger mini 14 in the past, but do not currently own any 5.56 firearms. I too have thought about the Saiga in 5.56. They have alot going for them from my view point. They are a quality made firearm made by a long time manufacturer in Russia, have chrome lined bores. I have handled several of the Saiga products, and they feel like quality firearms, for fair prices. (before nov 4th anyway)
You can do a whole lot worse for alot more money. |
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.223 AK mags may be the weak link in that idea
My .223 AK (WASR-3) works pretty well most of the time with Weiger mags. The only AK I truly trust is one in 7.62x39 that has been proven to be malfunction-free with the many heavy steel mags I've tried in it. All others are just an amusement. |
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223 AKs are kind of an oddball config, which could easily lead to parts resupply during a SHTF event. The AR15/M16 system is not only proven but there is a parts logistics tail in place. We all know to have a spare extractor, retaining pin, etc. We DON'T have the same thing in place for a 223 AK.
I have both, and while the AK is legendary in its durability, all mechanical things break. I'm not sure an AK spare parts kit or recommended small parts set exists. I have never had a critical failure with any of my ARs, even after several 1000 round training classes. A little BreakFree into the bolt carrier will keep it running for a LONG time. Ops |
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I like the stock Saiga AK and I have many ARs, plus an Arsenel AK in 556 and a Saiga shotty.
I think it's a solid, economical platform and I'd even leave it unmodified. I'd also choose it over an SKS, which I've owned a shit ton. You can buy two Saigas for the price of one AR, thereby mitigating the parts issue. |
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Most people over clean their ARs. An AR will run a long time if properly lubed, no matter how dirty it looks.
Given your experience with the AR platform, I would stick with what's been proven to work for you. However, I would wait until the panic buying stops before buying an over priced AR on today's market. |
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I really lik e Saiga products and have owned several of the .308 variety. My current battery includes a 16" Saiga .308 converted to PG and a MAADI Ak47 in addition to the AR I received a s a gift from some fellow shooters.
I believe the Saiga rifles to be robust and will serve you well in any situation. However, Shane had some very good points and OPS raises a great question regarding spare parts. They are difficult to obtain in any formal "spare parts kit" and must be acquired through many different companies. That being said, I think you'd be fine... I'd encourage you to consider the .308 version, unless you are adverse to adding an additional caliber to the stockpile. 
in action: 
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To those who worry about spare parts on the Saiga I have to ask: What parts are likely to break?
The piston/bolt carrier? Not likely. The bolt? I guess that it's possible but still not likely. The safety selector? I guess it's possible, but spares aren't hard to get. The fire control group? Spares are readily available. The driving spring for the bolt carrier along with the spring guide? Not likely, but spare parts for it are available (and incredibly easy to switch) if you want to have extras. Hammer spring? Spares are available. First of all, AK parts tend to be overbuilt so while a break is possible it just isn't all that likely. Why do some AR people keep suggesting that AK parts aren't available? A (converted) .223 Saiga uses the same FCG as a 7.62x39 AK. Need a hammer spring? Use the same as one from a 7.62x39 AK variant. What part of a .223 Saiga, besides magazines, is supposedly likely to break and spart parts not be available? I'm just not seeing how this is any more an issue than it would be for an AR. If anything it seems like less of an issue for the Saiga. Stock up on .223 mags for the Saiga and you should be good to go. |
| Thanks for all of the feed back. While AKs are robust I did not factor in finding spare parts for a 223. A 308 would be nice but it seems like there is more 223 ammo out there. Decisions, decisions, decisions. I wish I had the money to do the standard "get one of each" but I am trying to balance guns with other preps (like food storage). I guess I will start looking and see what kind of deals I can find. Thanks again. |
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The 5.56 vs 308 (7.62x51) should not be a issue at this point for you. If you are needing something now to protect you, your family, and your property, the BEST choice right now is 5.56
Here is why. Right now 308 is very hard to find, and very expensive. I only have 308 right now. I have ammo from years ago set back. At todays prices, I really cant afford to shoot much 7.62 nato. I am working towards reloading (should have long ago) just so I can continue to shoot my rifles. 7.62x51 has never been available on the scale of 5.56 There are so many weapons in 5.56, and several sources for ammo. It to has gotten more expensive, but there is enough of it out there it wont go to the point 7.62 nato has, and it is gonna get worse for 7.62 nato. 5.56 on the other hand is probably only second to 22LR as far as popularity. Of course the cheapest 7.62x51 is the russian stuff, and that should run just fine in a Saiga, but it is harder to find and more expensive than 5.56 5.56 in the Saiga will provide the protection you need, can secure deer size game if needed, and with practice I bet you can be accurate enough with iron sights out to 200 yards. Those are all the things that a "survival" rifle needs to be. Good luck |
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Quoted:
Thanks for all of the feed back. While AKs are robust I did not factor in finding spare parts for a 223. A 308 would be nice but it seems like there is more 223 ammo out there. Decisions, decisions, decisions. I wish I had the money to do the standard "get one of each" but I am trying to balance guns with other preps (like food storage). I guess I will start looking and see what kind of deals I can find. Thanks again. The only spare parts that would be unique to the .223, that I can think of, are the bolt and bolt carrier, feed ramp, and magazines. Can't imagine you breaking the bolt or bolt carrier. Even breaking the feed ramp seems unlikely. With mags just stock up on magazines from AIM Surplus or else find some Galil orlites. The fire control group is simply a standard Tapco AK FCG. Other than the parts I mentioned above there really isn't anything so particular to the .223. |
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IIRC the east german .223 AK works great.
I converted my .223 saiga to a romanian folding stock configuration. It is one of my bedside guns now. Very short and handy and so far it has been quite reliable. Oh yeah, more accurate than my other AK types but not as accurate as my ARs. |
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The company makes an adaptor that allows your rifle to us standard AR-15 / M-16 magazineshttp://magnoliastatearmory.com/
I'm heard that they are in the proces ofmaking one for the 308 using FAL mag. (I'm praying that the can do this before any bans come along.) |
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The company makes an adaptor that allows your rifle to us standard AR-15 / M-16 magazineshttp://magnoliastatearmory.com/
I'm heard that they are in the proces ofmaking one for the 308 using FAL mag. (I'm praying that the can do this before any bans come along.) |
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The company makes an adaptor that allows your rifle to us standard AR-15 / M-16 magazineshttp://magnoliastatearmory.com/
I'm heard that they are in the proces ofmaking one for the 308 using FAL mag. (I'm praying that the can do this before any bans come along.) |