[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Helmet Use in SHTF (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 1/19/2009 12:58:28 PM EDT
| Do you all think this would be a good idea? Maybe during riots or something of the like? Maybe a protec helmet for bumps or a K-pot for heavy duty? Does this seem like a good idea? Thanks all! |
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i have a kpot that was given to me. i have tested several including a mitch at the range. the odds of them giving real ballistic protection are minimal fram anything more than a standard handgun. JMHO but for the added weight and such i'd be better serveed with more ammo.
that said a brain bucket is not a bad idea if you are on the move and have to climb or enter damaged buidlings. |
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Not to hijack the thread, but I have a quick helmet question. A few years ago my Father gave me a USGI kevlar helmet as a Christmas present. I know nothing about it, aside from the little blue pamphlet that came in the box with it.
Are these kevlar helmets decent? It currently resides on my wall-I've never worn it except to try it on. 
It also came with a bunch of different covers that attach to it with velcro-black, white, chocolate chip, woodland, and "digital". |
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my 100% informal test has shown they will deflect pistol rounds and oblique angles and stop most head on. rifle rounds in almost every case will deaft them.
a 9mm at 25 yards pentrated one side and stopped in the other. 45 acp was stopped in the first side but i am sure a massive headache if not unconsciousness would have associated it. |
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Quoted:
Not to hijack the thread, but I have a quick helmet question. A few years ago my Father gave me a USGI kevlar helmet as a Christmas present. I know nothing about it, aside from the little blue pamphlet that came in the box with it. Are these kevlar helmets decent? It currently resides on my wall-I've never worn it except to try it on. http://home.comcast.net/~cjan99999/Surefire_Bezel.JPG It also came with a bunch of different covers that attach to it with velcro-black, white, chocolate chip, woodland, and "digital". They are rated for fragment protection, and will work for the most part on handgun ammo. If they do anything more, it is sheer luck or the will of God. That said, they are a force multiplier. If I am bugged in, in the neighborhood, and standing a post guarding against looters or the like, I will be wearing one, a lvl 3a vest, and a plate carrier with a pair of rifleplates. They are force multipliers. Body armour works for the most part at keeping you alive - a ton lot more of our guys would have been dead if it had not been for their armour. I think it is worth it if you are basically in a static position, and you don't have to carry all your belongings with you. If you are bugging out in the woods, carry the weight in water & or food instead. |
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According tot he Army, most deadly wounds were the result of indirect projectiles, stones, bullet and artillery fragments, and ricocheting bullets. If I think I MAY get shot at, I'll wear mine. If I KNOW I am gonna get shot at, I don't go..
and we wear the skateboard type helmets when working anywhere we need bump protection. God gave you a brain, now use that to protect it. Ops |
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It's not always the direct hit of a bullet that harms you in SHTF.
Glass, flying debris, falling objects, fragmentation, richochet, fire, and so forth. Glass flying at a mear 7 MPH will scalp you my friends. In short for many the same reasons you wear eye protection during SHTF (most people here should be set with some decent eye protection) you wear a helmet for. Head injuries are nasty things. Ask any EMT. Modern helmets are increasingly lighter weight and there are a host of excellent suspension systems to accomdate every personal taste. DAMN OPS beat me. |
| Even the old steel pots will stop handgun bullets and, in a SHTF world, you may have to contend with stone-throwing mobs (or zombies trying to eat your brains). Also, the authorities might be less likely to shoot at you if they see the helmet silhouette - if they're used to dealing with riff-raff. I say go with the helmet. |
| 4 years USMC, you can keep them. Yes they help against head shots, but the common thug would only get lucky to get a head shot. They are heavy and limit sight and movement and arent comfy by any means. Id invest in some LIII body armor first. About the only time Id wear a helmet would be driving, like madmax type stuff. |
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Quoted:
Even the old steel pots will stop handgun bullets and, in a SHTF world, you may have to contend with stone-throwing mobs (or zombies trying to eat your brains). Also, the authorities might be less likely to shoot at you if they see the helmet silhouette - if they're used to dealing with riff-raff. I say go with the helmet. most handgun rounds go through the old steel pots like tinfoil in our tests. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Even the old steel pots will stop handgun bullets and, in a SHTF world, you may have to contend with stone-throwing mobs (or zombies trying to eat your brains). Also, the authorities might be less likely to shoot at you if they see the helmet silhouette - if they're used to dealing with riff-raff. I say go with the helmet. most handgun rounds go through the old steel pots like tinfoil in our tests. Just to defend myself (not to hijack the thread) I remember reading many years ago that one of the reasons the 5.7 was invented was because handgun-caliber sub guns weren't considered powerful enough - one test being penetration of steel pot helmets. And, while I won't argue with you about your tests, I will say any hemet is better than no helmet - especially against brain-eating zombies. |
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Old_Painless tested a kevlar helmet in his Box O' Truth.
9mm, .45ACP, and even his hand-loaded .357 Magnum FMJ couldn't do more than dent it. 7.62x25 Tokarev went through like a hot knife through butter. Kevlar helmets are only supposed to stop 5.56mm at a range of a thousand yards. It's basically very good Level II or slightly substandard Level IIIa protection for your head. Good for wearing in a vehicle when there's a chance you could get shot at, good for entering damaged buildings, good for when you may have to deal with shrapnel, flying/falling debris, or gunfire. Otherwise, just wear a boonie hat or cap. Steel helmets are cheaper, heavier, and provide far less protection. Most handgun rounds will go right through. |
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depends on which helments he tested. mitch seem much better.
the old kpots stopped 9mm some of thime straight on shot almost always pentrated one side. 45 acp was almost always stopped. 357 ball was close to 9mm in penetration. as youd expect bullet type had a LOT to do with the penetration. |
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I would say yes.. Come up with your own reasons though...
Better to have it and not need it... If you are only concerned with riots got with the Protec, though I would look at something a tad thicker... I have seen riot shields shatter from bricks being thrown at them. I would think a Protec might have a quick breaking point. I'll have to test that out with the one I have... As for a Kevlar Helmet, its a good idea for me. But thats my version of SHTF... If it does not weigh heavily on your mind, then don't get it... But I would think it a higher priority then low, and I would also think it to be right up there with IBA... |
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ETA: Every small arm or small arm ammo accepted for use in western .mil (5.56 ss109, and FN5.7) has used the kevlar helmet as the standard to defeat since the kevlar was introduced.
To add to what TBS and OPS have said. The kevlar helmet provided better balistic protection than its predecessor, the steel pot. 2 reasons for this: 1 the kevlar is better, and 2 GIjo used the steel pot to cook in whigh could destroy the heat treatment and strength. That said I've considered using helmets in the BOV if there is some likelihood of a crash. Why do racers wear helmets? Crash probability goes up in bad weather, riots, road rage, Katrina/Rita type storms, etc |
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I have a British surplus KPOT that I was given the Christmas swap last year. I bought the propper DPM cover for it for a couple bucks at a local army-navy store. I never gave it much credit for potential SHTF value- considering it more of a nice momento that might be useful.
This past summer, some nut around the corner decided to let loose. For about 9 hours (intermitently) he (and possibly his wife) fired various weapons. I could make out the distinct sounds of shotgun blasts, .22 rimfire, a couple of different centerfire pistol calibers, and what sounded like 5.56 and another centerfire rifle caliber (possibly .308). The cops locked down several sqaure blocks and stood it off with him- while he kept firing. News reports later indicated they never fired a single return shot  While it turned out that most of the bullets went towards a different end of my street, I was that bullets (if any went towards my residence) penetrate the walls. Even if it was more of a psychological aid than practical, I donned that KPOT and was very glad that I didn't have to find out whether or not it worked.
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Quoted:
It's not always the direct hit of a bullet that harms you in SHTF. Glass, flying debris, falling objects, fragmentation, richochet, fire, and so forth. Glass flying at a mear 7 MPH will scalp you my friends. In short for many the same reasons you wear eye protection during SHTF (most people here should be set with some decent eye protection) you wear a helmet for. Head injuries are nasty things. Ask any EMT. Modern helmets are increasingly lighter weight and there are a host of excellent suspension systems to accomdate every personal taste. Quoted:
Head wounds have a bad way of ruining your day... +1 on what these guys said. I have a protec and a mich for these reasons. I would agree that it would not be on the top of my priority list if I was starting to prep, but for the $40 the protec will cost you, you cant go wrong. |
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Quoted:Head injuries are nasty things. Ask any EMT. Modern helmets are increasingly lighter weight and there are a host of excellent suspension systems to accomdate every personal taste.
Ask an EMT-B who has personally experienced a fractured skull ;) They suck. A lot. When an ER doc looks at you, smiles and says "I'm surprised you're alive at this point" really hits home. My question for you guys is this: How many battles do you expect to engage in, let alone survive? Do you view SHTF as a constant series of gunfights? |
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ETA: Every small arm or small arm ammo accepted for use in western .mil (5.56 ss109, and FN5.7) has used the kevlar helmet as the standard to defeat since the kevlar was introduced.
To add to what TBS and OPS have said. The kevlar helmet provided better balistic protection than its predecessor, the steel pot. 2 reasons for this: 1 the kevlar is better, and 2 GIjo used the steel pot to cook in whigh could destroy the heat treatment and strength. True, but the rifles used in those days were more powerful than now so the heat treatment was probably not a real factor in protection. If the bad guys are using mortars and artillery against you, put your helmet on, but the situation might be out of hand already. RS |
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I don't have any of the kevlar stuff, but a skater/climbing/hocky type helmet holds up a pair of NVD's better than the scull crusher, helps out with some of the bigger bumps you might get while being active, and is better than nothing when glass and shit start flying around.. They wont help with head shots or frag, but they weigh ounces to the pound of the "bullet proof" stuff that kinda stops some bullets..
just a thought.. |
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Quoted:
Even the old steel pots will stop handgun bullets and, in a SHTF world, you may have to contend with stone-throwing mobs (or zombies trying to eat your brains). Also, the authorities might be less likely to shoot at you if they see the helmet silhouette - if they're used to dealing with riff-raff. I say go with the helmet. The old steel pots had many uses outside of sitting on ones cabbage. They make nice chairs,entrenching tools,bathtub/sink,cook pot,pillow,foot rest and many other things I can't think of now. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Even the old steel pots will stop handgun bullets and, in a SHTF world, you may have to contend with stone-throwing mobs (or zombies trying to eat your brains). Also, the authorities might be less likely to shoot at you if they see the helmet silhouette - if they're used to dealing with riff-raff. I say go with the helmet. The old steel pots had many uses outside of sitting on ones cabbage. They make nice chairs,entrenching tools,bathtub/sink,cook pot,pillow,foot rest and many other things I can't think of now. I hate them Kevlar helmets....gimme the old steel pot anytime |
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In Iraq right now and I wouldn't wear my kevlar 90% of the time that I have to if it wasn't mandated
we've got so much armor it limits our mobility, and I cant stand having the weight on my head. once you wear one for a living you'll think twice about it. guarding a position it makes sense, but more times than not I'll pass. |
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+1 for a brain bucket.
IMO weight can't really be used as an excuse anymore. Newer (not older issued k-pots) are out there for sale that have lighter weight and improved protection. You could get the MICH or lightweight USMC helmet, but I'm not sure on the ballistic rating for those. I myself opted for an RBR kevlar rated at IIIA. Same cut as the old kevlars, but lighter and stronger, better suspension system, and I can use standard military accessories and covers for it as well. The bulk is still there of course, as it is a full coverage helmet. You can get MICH cut ones too. On the move or on guard duty, I'd rather have my bell rung hard rather than my brains splattered. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:Head injuries are nasty things. Ask any EMT. Modern helmets are increasingly lighter weight and there are a host of excellent suspension systems to accomdate every personal taste.
Ask an EMT-B who has personally experienced a fractured skull ;) They suck. A lot. When an ER doc looks at you, smiles and says "I'm surprised you're alive at this point" really hits home. My question for you guys is this: How many battles do you expect to engage in, let alone survive? Do you view SHTF as a constant series of gunfights? the ideal is NONE. if your in a running gun battle you did plan properly. the purpose of armor would come into my preps in having to defend a position where it is not feasible to leave or having to get from one location to another. i have ZERO plans to engage anyone or anything not shooting at me. |
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My question for you guys is this: How many battles do you expect to engage in, let alone survive?
I plan on surviving EVERY ONE that I'm a part of, whether that is a one or thirty.....that's why I have body armor and helmets among other things. I don't PLAN to fail even once. IF I do fail it won't be for a lack of trying and playing the odds to my favor. Since my crystal ball is fresh out of Unobtainium to power it, I have to plan the best I can and that means covering as many eventualities as possible. |
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Quoted:
My question for you guys is this: How many battles do you expect to engage in, let alone survive?
I plan on surviving EVERY ONE that I'm a part of, whether that is a one or thirty.....that's why I have body armor and helmets among other things. I don't PLAN to fail even once. IF I do fail it won't be for a lack of trying and playing the odds to my favor. Since my crystal ball is fresh out of Unobtainium to power it, I have to plan the best I can and that means covering as many eventualities as possible. +1 to this. A little backache beats a hole through your torso or head, every time and twice on Sundays. Body armour is insurance, just as is LTFS, a cistern, a generator, solar panels, or whatever else you can think of. I intend to get in 0 fights, but I also intend to win and live if I am ever attacked, which is why I take the trouble to put in range time, pay for training, pay for the ammo to expend for both, etc. In reality, I will likely never have to shoot at, or be shot at, or shoot anything more than a rabbit in the garden, BUT, if looters, MZB's, or whatever you want to call them during Civil Unrest come up the hill to our sub-division to loot, burn, or steal, they will think they walked up Pork Chop hill, or into the LZ at Ia Drang, and I intend me and mine to live through it. Best have it, and be prepared for it, and have it never happen, than to have it happen and be caught unprepared. |
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+1 to this. A little backache beats a hole through your torso or head, every time and twice on Sundays. Body armour is insurance, just as is LTFS, a cistern, a generator, solar panels, or whatever else you can think of.
I intend to get in 0 fights, but I also intend to win and live if I am ever attacked, which is why I take the trouble to put in range time, pay for training, pay for the ammo to expend for both, etc. In reality, I will likely never have to shoot at, or be shot at, or shoot anything more than a rabbit in the garden, BUT, if looters, MZB's, or whatever you want to call them during Civil Unrest come up the hill to our sub-division to loot, burn, or steal, they will think they walked up Pork Chop hill, or into the LZ at Ia Drang, and I intend me and mine to live through it. Best have it, and be prepared for it, and have it never happen, than to have it happen and be caught unprepared. I was hoping I wasn't alone on this. I don't plan on looking for any shit but it has a funny way of showing up anyway and if it does....ME AND MINE rules apply. I'm going to do everything I can to ensure that ME AND MINE come through unscathed, that may not be reality but it's a hell of alot better place to start from than a discussion of "acceptable losses"..... With ME AND MINE....NO LOSS is acceptable. Hence, we train and plan and gear up as much as reasonably possible. I'm not going to explain to my Sons mother why a bullet fragment caught him in the ear and killed him when I could have spent $60 on a Mich that might have saved him. Your family dynamics may be different, to each their own. |
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Count me down as another vet that would rather take my chances than deal with a helmet.
Now if I know I'm going out to fight the invading Chinese, maybe, but what's the odds? Most certainly walking down the street trying to make my way to my BOL with my family, not a good idea. Tj |
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Count me down as another vet that would rather take my chances than deal with a helmet. Now if I know I'm going out to fight the invading Chinese, maybe, but what's the odds? Most certainly walking down the street trying to make my way to my BOL with my family, not a good idea. Tj True enough, and I used the modifier it was a decent idea for bugging in, but not so much for bugging out. |
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My question for you guys is this: How many battles do you expect to engage in, let alone survive? Do you view SHTF as a constant series of gunfights? Helmets have other uses. We keep a pair of helmets for Tornado drills. Lots of crap flies around during Tornadoes, and you don't always get time to run away. I'll take Kevlar or steel pot over high-impact plastic (a la construction type helmets) any day, especially versus falling/flying debris or glass. |
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dont mean to steal the thread but what about body armour. i had a guy trade me a flak jacket from the 90's for some stuff i had on the EE. i know their only rated for fragmentation and their are not bullet proof but should i keep it? do they make plates for them? or would it just be worthless to have?
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:Head injuries are nasty things. Ask any EMT. Modern helmets are increasingly lighter weight and there are a host of excellent suspension systems to accomdate every personal taste.
Ask an EMT-B who has personally experienced a fractured skull ;) They suck. A lot. When an ER doc looks at you, smiles and says "I'm surprised you're alive at this point" really hits home. My question for you guys is this: How many battles do you expect to engage in, let alone survive? Do you view SHTF as a constant series of gunfights? the ideal is NONE. if your in a running gun battle you did plan properly. the purpose of armor would come into my preps in having to defend a position where it is not feasible to leave or having to get from one location to another. i have ZERO plans to engage anyone or anything not shooting at me. +1. w/ a wife and three kids if i can safely E and E i will. i have the tools to fight should it be necessary. |
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well, they are not really considered 'bullet proof'. I don't expect any shell bursts, so I think I will leave m K pot at home. They're not bullet 'proof', but they do a decent job of bullet resistance... Mainly by deflecting rounds - guys I know have mentioned getting shot (or someone they know getting shot) in the helmet, and the round tearing up the inside of the helmet but not injuring the wearer..... That said, body armor in general sucks to wear, and 90%+ of people will simply leave it in their home or vehicle unless they are *expecting* a firefight.... Thus ensuring that they will NOT be wearing it when they actually get in a situation where it might help... Most folks who have worn IBA or similar for extended time-periods will agree with this.... |
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I've got a unarmored skateboard lookin helmet I wear to use with NVGs or to protect my noggin. I can't imagine NOT having it now that I do. I'm sure the latest generation of ACH/MICH would make me feel a bit safer, but I don't plan on being near any artillery or frag grenades, so its much lower on the list. |
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Well.... Like TJ, just an old vet's experience..
Had to carry a steel Pot for 13 months in VN... had many baths in it.. never wore it !(Pathfinders wear black baseball caps so that pilots can identify you on an LZ) They restrict vision & movement.. it takes very little interference/ distraction to screw up your target identification or shot placement. However, they can save your life... in a race car accident where I tore all four wheels off the car going end over end & rolling twice, it worked. In a crop dusting crash (sucked up a bird), ripped off both wings, engine & LG and took out the instrument panel with the top of my helmet- saved my life.. Won't be wearing one in SHTF though.. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:Head injuries are nasty things. Ask any EMT. Modern helmets are increasingly lighter weight and there are a host of excellent suspension systems to accomdate every personal taste.
Ask an EMT-B who has personally experienced a fractured skull ;) They suck. A lot. When an ER doc looks at you, smiles and says "I'm surprised you're alive at this point" really hits home. My question for you guys is this: How many battles do you expect to engage in, let alone survive? Do you view SHTF as a constant series of gunfights?  What you don't? Come SHTF I'll be driving back the filthy unwashed masses with my ubber tactical AR while sporting my multi-cam chest rig with 20 mag load out and my kifaru on back. I wont get shot or killed cause I bought the best weapons and gear and I am wearing my multi-cam ballistic underwear. I will win all 20 of these fire fights as I have paid lots for weapons training classes at prestigious training centers.
Now that I am done being a smart ass, a helmet may not be a bad idea as long as I didn't have to carry it. I cant hardly carry all the important stuff I need, the weight of a helmet would be un welcome. That said for use driving or in your AO may not be a bad idea depending on situation. Ballistic protection would be the last of my concerns as I hope not to be in a bullet storm of that proportion. |
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Quoted:
dont mean to steal the thread but what about body armour. i had a guy trade me a flak jacket from the 90's for some stuff i had on the EE. i know their only rated for fragmentation and their are not bullet proof but should i keep it? do they make plates for them? or would it just be worthless to have? It is far from useless - just understand that it is bullet resistant, rather than bullet proof, and it isn't going to stop a rifle round. Put some steel plates in a plate carrier over it, and it will stop more. A lot of people complain about weight and discomfort, I have a different perspective, as I have had the opportunity to wear 65 lbs of steel harness for 7 hours a go, in pretty much all weather, on horseback and on foot including some crushingly brutal, humid days. What people complain about in regards to modern armour is nothing in comparison, and most soldiers are carrying a full battle load. If you are in your Area of Operations, and you aren't laden down with a 3 day assault pack, and all the rest of a combat load the modern soldier has on - lets just say you are carrying 6 mags, and water, and maybe less than 20 lbs worth of other stuff, the wieght and discomfort level would be managable, if you are in any kind of shape at all - even for us Middle Aged guys. Add a pack , and be bugging out, and it will kill a middle aged guy, who isn't in top shape. I think you would find people shedding their Red Dawn 12 mag load out in a hurry, nevermind a plate carrier and a flack jacket. Still, if I am being shot at, I would rather have it than not, but if I am bugging out, and if I am not in a vehicle, I am not going to carry the additional weight. Armour is, and always has been a personal preference between the lervel of comfort a person is willing to sacrifice, for the level actual of protection, and perception of safety and thus confidence it gives. Really, it is only in the last 2 decades that modern personal armour has really approached a worthwhile level of protection offered, against the discomfort it adds, to bother with it. In Vietnam, the average grunts Flack Jacket and steel pot offered marginal protection, compared to todays issue items, and a 'chicken plate' from the 60's really can't compare to rifle plates performance today. In the end, it is entirely up to you, and your individual situation,. If you have it, and intend to use it, you better get used to it now, as best you can, instead of leaving it until SHTF, cause if you do that, it will be a burden, and worse than useless to you - like having a gun you have never fired before, and trying to zero it in the middle of a firefight. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
dont mean to steal the thread but what about body armour. i had a guy trade me a flak jacket from the 90's for some stuff i had on the EE. i know their only rated for fragmentation and their are not bullet proof but should i keep it? do they make plates for them? or would it just be worthless to have? It is far from useless - just understand that it is bullet resistant, rather than bullet proof, and it isn't going to stop a rifle round. Put some steel plates in a plate carrier over it, and it will stop more. A lot of people complain about weight and discomfort, I have a different perspective, as I have had the opportunity to wear 65 lbs of steel harness for 7 hours a go, in pretty much all weather, on horseback and on foot including some crushingly brutal, humid days. What people complain about in regards to modern armour is nothing in comparison, and most soldiers are carrying a full battle load. If you are in your Area of Operations, and you aren't laden down with a 3 day assault pack, and all the rest of a combat load the modern soldier has on - lets just say you are carrying 6 mags, and water, and maybe less than 20 lbs worth of other stuff, the wieght and discomfort level would be managable, if you are in any kind of shape at all - even for us Middle Aged guys. Add a pack , and be bugging out, and it will kill a middle aged guy, who isn't in top shape. I think you would find people shedding their Red Dawn 12 mag load out in a hurry, nevermind a plate carrier and a flack jacket. Still, if I am being shot at, I would rather have it than not, but if I am bugging out, and if I am not in a vehicle, I am not going to carry the additional weight. Armour is, and always has been a personal preference between the lervel of comfort a person is willing to sacrifice, for the level actual of protection, and perception of safety and thus confidence it gives. Really, it is only in the last 2 decades that modern personal armour has really approached a worthwhile level of protection offered, against the discomfort it adds, to bother with it. In Vietnam, the average grunts Flack Jacket and steel pot offered marginal protection, compared to todays issue items, and a 'chicken plate' from the 60's really can't compare to rifle plates performance today. In the end, it is entirely up to you, and your individual situation,. If you have it, and intend to use it, you better get used to it now, as best you can, instead of leaving it until SHTF, cause if you do that, it will be a burden, and worse than useless to you - like having a gun you have never fired before, and trying to zero it in the middle of a firefight. i have a outter cover for the jacket do they makes plates for it or would i have to fab up something? |