Posted: 1/7/2009 7:32:31 AM EDT
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Hi all, I don't post here much but read just about every day. I have a question, and hopefully someone here can point me in the right direction, or maybe we have a pharmacist or two among us.
I take a blood thinner everyday (Warfarin), and will have to for the rest of my life. I have about a three month supply that I rotate thru, but I'm wondering what I would do for my meds in a longer term SHTF situation. It's basically something I need to live, not taking it is kind of a crap shoot. Does anyone have a source for how-tos on alternatives to medicines? Or perhaps any suggestions? According to OSHA what I take is a form of rat poison, but common sense would tell me that I can't just use an off the shelf box of rat bait. I would hate to be driven to that in bad circumstances. I hope this makes sense, and thanks for any help you might have to offer. |
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I have thought about that too.
I have thought that perhaps you can make friends with a doctor that understands SHTF scenarios, and he/she can give you a larger dose so that you can build up a bigger supply. That, or study it and learn alternatives. I figure that in a long-term SHTF scenario, there will certainly be a need for doctors and this kind of situation. |
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Quoted:
Alcohol will also thin the blood you could distill your own "medical" booze. I was going to make a joke about that, but depending on how badly he needs blood thinners, it's not a terrible idea. Booze and/or Aspirin is where I'd look if I required that medication and couldn't get it. |
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alcohol thickens the blood, that is why you get drunk, it starves your brain.
cayenne dialates the arteries, and there are other blood thiners. I knew someone that worked in a warferin clinic and they had problems with patients eatin natural [food] blood thinners that made it too thin. sorry I dont recall what food. |
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What do you take the coumadin for? If it is for a-fib, then your risk of stroke varies depending on heart and valve function, but runs around 2-3% per year. In this case, if the S really HTF, stopping is not as big of a deal. If you have an artificial heart valve, then the risk goes up, and it is a bigger deal. If it is due to pulmonary embolis, then did you have any risk factors for PE? Do you have one of the known congenital or acquired reasons for DVT/PE?
Taking coumadin chronically without checking INR is a risky proposition in and of itself. Especially if the SHTF and your diet changes significantly. This could lead to wild swings in your clotting time, and the risk of continuing to take it may quickly out weigh the benefits. There are now some home INR monitors on the market. It looks like they run about $1500, but if you are serious about this, you should look into these, and educate yourself about dosing adjustments and look into acquiring one of these. Taking rat poison would be a very bad idea. Many of them use "super warfarins" which last weeks or months, would be impossible to dose, and would almost certainly lead to your death in a SHTF situation. It is obviously a complicated issue, and best left to discussion with your primary physician. |
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some folks, get the Doc to double the script,,take one, save one.
most meds hold for a year or more before they start to detiorate, in SHTF if you went to meds every other day, you may extend your time longer, but,, many will die with in a year or two due to lack of meds. |
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For God sakes; Rat Poison? Don't ever make desparation cloud common sense. I say this not only for the rat poison idea, but or any ideas. Rat poison also contains the chemical in ipicac that almost immediately induces vomiting, so rat poison won't do you any good anyway.
As previously mentioned, your reason for taking coumadin helps determine the risk of being off of it. After all, as you probably well know, depending on a given medical procedure, your INR may be required to be lower than 1.5 for a certain period of time. Speak to your doctor about your concerns. The instability of certain areas of the world and the threat of civil disruption is a very real concern, and your doctor will more than likely speak with you about this and offer some advice. |
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Quoted:
What do you take the coumadin for? If it is for a-fib, then your risk of stroke varies depending on heart and valve function, but runs around 2-3% per year. In this case, if the S really HTF, stopping is not as big of a deal. If you have an artificial heart valve, then the risk goes up, and it is a bigger deal. If it is due to pulmonary embolis, then did you have any risk factors for PE? Do you have one of the known congenital or acquired reasons for DVT/PE? Taking coumadin chronically without checking INR is a risky proposition in and of itself. Especially if the SHTF and your diet changes significantly. This could lead to wild swings in your clotting time, and the risk of continuing to take it may quickly out weigh the benefits. There are now some home INR monitors on the market. It looks like they run about $1500, but if you are serious about this, you should look into these, and educate yourself about dosing adjustments and look into acquiring one of these. Taking rat poison would be a very bad idea. Many of them use "super warfarins" which last weeks or months, would be impossible to dose, and would almost certainly lead to your death in a SHTF situation. It is obviously a complicated issue, and best left to discussion with your primary physician. Good answer. Talk to your doctor. Don't take rat poison, even if you found one that only contained warfarin as the active rodenticide you have no good way to measure or standardize it for dosing, no way to monitor INR to stay in a safe range. Also as other have stated thay often contain other harmful chemicals or longer acting coumarin derivatives. When a doctor or pharmacist says they're treating you with rat poison (Coumadin) rattlesnake venom (captopril) or Gila monster spit (Byetta), it's not quite that simple. 
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Quoted:
Quoted:
What do you take the coumadin for? If it is for a-fib, then your risk of stroke varies depending on heart and valve function, but runs around 2-3% per year. In this case, if the S really HTF, stopping is not as big of a deal. If you have an artificial heart valve, then the risk goes up, and it is a bigger deal. If it is due to pulmonary embolis, then did you have any risk factors for PE? Do you have one of the known congenital or acquired reasons for DVT/PE? Taking coumadin chronically without checking INR is a risky proposition in and of itself. Especially if the SHTF and your diet changes significantly. This could lead to wild swings in your clotting time, and the risk of continuing to take it may quickly out weigh the benefits. There are now some home INR monitors on the market. It looks like they run about $1500, but if you are serious about this, you should look into these, and educate yourself about dosing adjustments and look into acquiring one of these. Taking rat poison would be a very bad idea. Many of them use "super warfarins" which last weeks or months, would be impossible to dose, and would almost certainly lead to your death in a SHTF situation. It is obviously a complicated issue, and best left to discussion with your primary physician. Good answer. Talk to your doctor. Don't take rat poison, even if you found one that only contained warfarin as the active rodenticide you have no good way to measure or standardize it for dosing, no way to monitor INR to stay in a safe range. Also as other have stated thay often contain other harmful chemicals or longer acting coumarin derivatives. When a doctor or pharmacist says they're treating you with rat poison (Coumadin) rattlesnake venom (captopril) or Gila monster spit (Byetta), it's not quite that simple. I think I'd even bump that rating up to excellent answer. |
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<––––––––-Chronic Illness
Every illness and how it impacts the individual differs. For those with a what if do without survival mindset, it becomes imperative you understand your illness and how it impacts you specifically like no other person on the planet. That includes the dos and don'ts of diet and exercise and impact of other things on your condition (like others mentioned aspirin etc.). This takes a lot of research, talking to doctors, and others with your ailment in similar conditions. BTW, kind of amazing if you truly have this mindset how many people that you are far worse off than they think they are far worse off. Others make them self far worse off by over medicating or seeking miracle cures. I'm not talking only alternative medicines here. That's actually a minor problem compared to total dependence on medication or medical procedures and ignoring diet and exercise. I wish I could tell you this learning process is fast and easy but its probably the hardest thing you will ever do. While learning you can't be stupid so learning smart takes a lot of time and patience. Something that generates pain though still not fast is quicker than something that doesn't. Unfortunately a high clotting factor is one of those no pain things and knowing what does what to you is really by a clotting factor test. If you remember how you doc did you when you first went on, now stretch that over months or years. Your doc can help you with this assuming the insurance company doesn't freak on you. There's many natural inhibitors in foods that immolates many drugs. How much we eat normally impacts how well the drug works or how well it doesn't. This blows your mind when you get into it. This is important stuff to know if you never ever vary your doctor recommended dosage for if you aren't paying attention depending on what you eat and how much you may. Learn. The more you learn the better armed you are. The better patient you become. The more helpful your doctor can be. The more knowledgeable you are on what if. Tj |
| Aspirin does not effect the clotting cascade. Aspririn merely decreases platelets' ability to stick together by inactivating cyclooxygenase, thereby preventing formation of thromboxane A2. If a person has an indication for anticagaulation, then aspirin is not going to do the job. If aspirin was adeqate, then nobody would mess around with all the trouble of using coumadin and following INRs, and adjusting doses. |
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Hello
I've been an herbalist now since 1992, not that, that means alot, except I've kept myself and my family going without modern pharmaceuticals. I take it they have you are Warfin because you are prone to blood clots? Possibly deep vein thrombosis? Two of the best things are Ginko Biloba, which has a substance that prevents blood cells from becoming "sticky" and clotting prematurely. It will tend to slow normal clotting if you get cut, but will not prevent all clotting like rat poison. Next is good old amazing Garlic! Taken religiously everyday, its the best blood cleanser and will tend to moderate clotting problems while allowing you to clot naturally if cut. Also there is aspirin, and you really do not need to hoard it as long as you have access to willow trees, as you can strip away the hard outer bark, and scrape the softer living inner bark and boil it into a drink/tea. Ginko is actually becoming A popular ornamental tree in the U.S. so you might have some nearby, they are known for stinking pretty bad, like feet, during hayfever season, and for having fan shaped leaves. A good herbal resource book is A Prescription for Herbal Healing by "Balch" and The Little Herb Encyclopedia by "Richardson". Good Luck. |
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Hello I've been an herbalist now since 1992, not that, that means alot, except I've kept myself and my family going without modern pharmaceuticals. I take it they have you are Warfin because you are prone to blood clots? Possibly deep vein thrombosis? Two of the best things are Ginko Biloba, which has a substance that prevents blood cells from becoming "sticky" and clotting prematurely. It will tend to slow normal clotting if you get cut, but will not prevent all clotting like rat poison. Next is good old amazing Garlic! Taken religiously everyday, its the best blood cleanser and will tend to moderate clotting problems while allowing you to clot naturally if cut. Also there is aspirin, and you really do not need to hoard it as long as you have access to willow trees, as you can strip away the hard outer bark, and scrape the softer living inner bark and boil it into a drink/tea. Ginko is actually becoming A popular ornamental tree in the U.S. so you might have some nearby, they are known for stinking pretty bad, like feet, during hayfever season, and for having fan shaped leaves. A good herbal resource book is A Prescription for Herbal Healing by "Balch" and The Little Herb Encyclopedia by "Richardson". Good Luck. Isn' it actually ibuprophen that is synthesized from willow bark? A guide to herbal medicine would be a very valuable book to have in your shtf reference. which one of the two you have cited would you suggest to get for teotwawki situation? |
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That's a lot of good advice, and yes, one of the things I need to do is learn what chemical processes cause my clotting and how my anti-coagulation therapy affects it.
I had a DVT/PE in 2001, and I was diagnosed with Antiphospholipid Antibody Syndrome. Last year I foolishly missed about 4 consecutive doses and spent a week in the hospital. Some of that painful learning TJ was talking about. One of the ways it influences my diet is that I can't eat things that are high in vitamin K. Guess what has that....everything. Mostly I'm supposed to stay away from green leafy vegetables, but it's also found in apples, oranges, bananas, chicken, beef, pork and shrimp. I'm sure normal lake fish probably has it as well. That's not really surprising to me, but vitamin K is one of the things I've been told to avoid. I figured that if I ever had to resort a rat poison I'd just be killing myself anyway, chemical treatment and all the other reasons listed. Alcohol, I've been told, doesn't do specifically what I need it to do to lower my clotting factors. (the doc told me that a salad and a beer don't cancel each other out) Ginger and Garlic both work to reduce my clotting levels as well, but not as an alternative to the Anti-Coag Therapy, and I don't know what amounts I would need anyway. And aspirin I've been told is something I can take if I'm on my way to the ER with a PE, but they've said not to take it regularly because it can falsify my blood test results. As it is now I haven't had any sort of non prescription drug for going on 8 years just because a lot of things like that can potentially screw up my clotting levels. One thing I am fortunate in is that I can get 30 days worth of Warfarin for $4 at Wal-Mart, even without my insurance. My doc is an old Army doc, and he already thinks I'm a bit of a nut, so hopefully he'll humor me if I tell him I want to stockpile some more meds. I think from here I need to research the INR monitors that justlearnin mentioned, and get my doctor on board with my using it. I got to a lab once a month and get blood drawn, which I've been told is more accurate, so I'll keep doing that. I also need to find out the life of my meds, rotating a 3 month supply is no big deal, but I don't want to get a year or two from now and start taking some Warfarin that is less effective. I'm going to ask my doc to what to do in a pinch in what I'll term to him as a "Hurricane Katrina" type situation. He may still be a sheeple! Thanks |
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What the HELL has happened to SF???
Hi, I'm on drugs for ever because some doc said so... 
Take your health into your own hands and get off those drugs. Or drink alcohol, or wait don't drink alcohol... 
Rat poison sounds good. 
Jesus H Christ, general discussion has more sense than this thread. |
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Type 1 Diabetic here. Very long term SHTF and I'm screwed. I have a propane powered fridge and about 6 months supply of the insulins I use, that I rotate through. Total Armegeddon, no power, no modern medicines, I am pretty much out of the game after about 8 months. Diet can only help so much for so long. Dr's tried me on the oral meds in high school and almost killed me. Literally.
Patrick |
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Quoted:
That's a lot of good advice, and yes, one of the things I need to do is learn what chemical processes cause my clotting and how my anti-coagulation therapy affects it. I had a DVT/PE in 2001, and I was diagnosed with Antiphospholipid Antibody Syndrome. Last year I foolishly missed about 4 consecutive doses and spent a week in the hospital. Some of that painful learning TJ was talking about. One of the ways it influences my diet is that I can't eat things that are high in vitamin K. Guess what has that....everything. Mostly I'm supposed to stay away from green leafy vegetables, but it's also found in apples, oranges, bananas, chicken, beef, pork and shrimp. I'm sure normal lake fish probably has it as well. That's not really surprising to me, but vitamin K is one of the things I've been told to avoid. I figured that if I ever had to resort a rat poison I'd just be killing myself anyway, chemical treatment and all the other reasons listed. Alcohol, I've been told, doesn't do specifically what I need it to do to lower my clotting factors. (the doc told me that a salad and a beer don't cancel each other out) Ginger and Garlic both work to reduce my clotting levels as well, but not as an alternative to the Anti-Coag Therapy, and I don't know what amounts I would need anyway. And aspirin I've been told is something I can take if I'm on my way to the ER with a PE, but they've said not to take it regularly because it can falsify my blood test results. As it is now I haven't had any sort of non prescription drug for going on 8 years just because a lot of things like that can potentially screw up my clotting levels. One thing I am fortunate in is that I can get 30 days worth of Warfarin for $4 at Wal-Mart, even without my insurance. My doc is an old Army doc, and he already thinks I'm a bit of a nut, so hopefully he'll humor me if I tell him I want to stockpile some more meds. I think from here I need to research the INR monitors that justlearnin mentioned, and get my doctor on board with my using it. I got to a lab once a month and get blood drawn, which I've been told is more accurate, so I'll keep doing that. I also need to find out the life of my meds, rotating a 3 month supply is no big deal, but I don't want to get a year or two from now and start taking some Warfarin that is less effective. I'm going to ask my doc to what to do in a pinch in what I'll term to him as a "Hurricane Katrina" type situation. He may still be a sheeple! Thanks Antiphospholipid Antibody Syndrome is one of the more difficult clotting disorders to treat. You have already had a "trial" of no meds, with a bad outcome as you state in your post, so you really are a life long coumadin taker. Do you have SLE as well? These almost always go together. Basically, the way coumadin works is it interrupts the Vitamin K cycle in your body. Vitamin K is necessary for one of the enzymes which helps construct seveal of the proteins in the clotting cascade. If the vitamin K is not around, the proteins are not assembled correctly, and they don't work (I think that they are only missing one OH group, but it renders them ineffective). This makes it more difficult for clotting to occur and "thins" your blood (it really has nothing to do with viscosity). As you said, there is a lot of vitamin K in green leafy vegatables. Unfortunately (in my opinion) most doctors either don't understand, or don't take the time to educate their patients about eating. Most people either think or are told they shouldn't eat vegetables, but the important thing in your eating is CONSISTENCY. There are people on coumadin who are vegetarians. They eat lots of vegetables, so they need higher doses of coumadin to counteract the larger amount of vitamin K coming into their system. People who eat no vegetables need much lower doses. If you have a fairly consistent diet, eventually you settle on a pretty stable dose. Big changes in diet are what get you into trouble. When I start people on coumadin, I tell them to eat the way they plan on eating for the rest of their lives. That way the dose gets matched to their diet during the initial adjustment period, instead of them trying to make big changes to their diet to minimize the dose. Of course, you need to make sure any vitamins you take do not include Vit K as well. I would talk about this with your Doc. There are plenty of good docs out there who will work with you, you just need to get one who understands, and is willing to work with you. |
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I beleive the original question what to do in long term shtf, as when he cant go to wal mart and get his coumadin or check his INR. In that case I would still suggest Aspirin,
some patients with hughes syndrome, the other name for his condition are actually treated with Aspirin alone or in combination with heparin. Asprin retains its potency for a long time, requires no INR and the efficacy on lots of clotting problems wether as prophylaxis or treament isnt that hugely different than coumadin and sure allows a wider choice of other medications and foods. so if he gets stuck with only septra and spinach he can still live. Its a matter of percentages and acceptable risks in long term shtf. and a good reason for us all to research altetrnatives to standard medicines, naturally growing herbs, and things that are common that you can scrounge or trade for. good luck in your quest waafist. |
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Quoted:
That's a lot of good advice, and yes, one of the things I need to do is learn what chemical processes cause my clotting and how my anti-coagulation therapy affects it. I had a DVT/PE in 2001, and I was diagnosed with Antiphospholipid Antibody Syndrome. Last year I foolishly missed about 4 consecutive doses and spent a week in the hospital. Some of that painful learning TJ was talking about. One of the ways it influences my diet is that I can't eat things that are high in vitamin K. Guess what has that....everything. Mostly I'm supposed to stay away from green leafy vegetables, but it's also found in apples, oranges, bananas, chicken, beef, pork and shrimp. I'm sure normal lake fish probably has it as well. That's not really surprising to me, but vitamin K is one of the things I've been told to avoid. I figured that if I ever had to resort a rat poison I'd just be killing myself anyway, chemical treatment and all the other reasons listed. Alcohol, I've been told, doesn't do specifically what I need it to do to lower my clotting factors. (the doc told me that a salad and a beer don't cancel each other out) Ginger and Garlic both work to reduce my clotting levels as well, but not as an alternative to the Anti-Coag Therapy, and I don't know what amounts I would need anyway. And aspirin I've been told is something I can take if I'm on my way to the ER with a PE, but they've said not to take it regularly because it can falsify my blood test results. As it is now I haven't had any sort of non prescription drug for going on 8 years just because a lot of things like that can potentially screw up my clotting levels. One thing I am fortunate in is that I can get 30 days worth of Warfarin for $4 at Wal-Mart, even without my insurance. My doc is an old Army doc, and he already thinks I'm a bit of a nut, so hopefully he'll humor me if I tell him I want to stockpile some more meds. I think from here I need to research the INR monitors that justlearnin mentioned, and get my doctor on board with my using it. I got to a lab once a month and get blood drawn, which I've been told is more accurate, so I'll keep doing that. I also need to find out the life of my meds, rotating a 3 month supply is no big deal, but I don't want to get a year or two from now and start taking some Warfarin that is less effective. I'm going to ask my doc to what to do in a pinch in what I'll term to him as a "Hurricane Katrina" type situation. He may still be a sheeple! Thanks You're definitely down the path a piece. I kind of sum my condition down to ruffage and two food chemicals from a dietary standpoint. If had to rely 100% on diet, I tell you man, I'd have one very bland boring diet and not necessarily all that healthful for the rest of my body. Still knowing that and what foods those are is tremendous information. Its literally allowed me to live a more active lifestyle and even the occasional indulgence. If I told you how many pills I was taking at one time, it would blow your mind. By working with my doctor and understanding my condition, I have reduced my meds over 1/3 over a ten year period and accomplished a pretty good stockpile of meds as well as having a very crude ability to adjust my medication levels for varying conditions. I guess I'm lucky in that regard for I can tell when I'm getting worse before I get there if you know what I mean. (BTW, that took years for me learn too.) This hasn't come without a price either. It's been the balancing act from hell balancing current condition against long term side effects. Man oh man, do I have the major if I had known thens what I know nows. I actually have two good doctors now. My GP is West Point ex career military so understands my desire to be prepared and my specialist is where our trust level very quickly went to see me once a year instead of every six months. Developing doctor trust is a key part. Him knowing that you are knowledgeable helps but so does you aren't BSing him either and taking his advice. I've been pretty darn lucky on doctors having 2 out of three good specialists over the last 15 years that would actually work with me rather than write a script and test. They would discuss dietary issues and even managing long-term stress. You develop that trust and knowledge, its amazing how much more control you gain over your life. In picking doctors, I'll give you a hint. I don't look for the you're an idiot type nor the whatever you want it type, but a sharp guy with good commonsense and a keen sense of character judgment. They don't give trust too easily for its too easy to get burned. It takes time. Hell, Our conditions are chronic so time is all we have really. Its succumb to this crap or deal with it and deal with it life is much better. TJ |
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I'm lucky enough that I had to go look up what SLE stands for. I went to a Rheumatologist last year because I knew I was at risk for Lupus, and when my doctor had me take a urinalysis it came back high with protein. After a few visits with the Rheumatologist I went to a kidney specialist so they could run some tests. His tests on protein in my urine as well as the few my Rheumatologist ran all came back normal, and they say it's normal to have it come back a little high every once in a while.
After all of those batteries of tests they determined that I don't have any form of Lupus, but I have a few of the symptoms, and could possibly develop it later in life. They suggested lots of exercise and to eat healthy, so that's what I'm doing. Next time I see my doctor I'm going to talk to him about working more vegetables back into my diet. The problem with those is strict consistency so I don't have to alter my dosage, unfortunately for me I love spinach. I was on Heparin for a little while, but it was way too hard to regulate, and if I remember right it was just to ramp up to the Warfarin. I didn't mind the shots though, after the first time every other time was easy. |
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Quoted:
One thing I am fortunate in is that I can get 30 days worth of Warfarin for $4 at Wal-Mart, even without my insurance. My doc is an old Army doc, and he already thinks I'm a bit of a nut, so hopefully he'll humor me if I tell him I want to stockpile some more meds. This is exactly how I built up a 6 month supply of pravastatin. My doc wrote me two separate Rx for it, I took one to walmart and submitted no insurance paperwork and got it for $4 each month; the other I took to my regular pharmacy which files for my insurance. Now I rotate them out. But this is just a cholesterol drug- warfarin has a much narrower therapeutic range and requires much more frequent monitoring, and that I believe is a much bigger issue to be concerned about. |
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Aspirin does not effect the clotting cascade. Aspririn merely decreases platelets' ability to stick together by inactivating cyclooxygenase, thereby preventing formation of thromboxane A2. If a person has an indication for anticagaulation, then aspirin is not going to do the job. If aspirin was adeqate, then nobody would mess around with all the trouble of using coumadin and following INRs, and adjusting doses. Since you're 'juslearnin,' I'll point out that aspirin is perfectly acceptable (in fact, preferrable) alternative to warfarin in afib if the CHADS2 score is 0 or 1. |
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What the HELL has happened to SF??? Hi, I'm on drugs for ever because some doc said so...
Take your health into your own hands and get off those drugs. Or drink alcohol, or wait don't drink alcohol...
Rat poison sounds good.
Jesus H Christ, general discussion has more sense than this thread. redacted: I'm not sure in which sense you meant something, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt. 
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