[ARCHIVED THREAD] - silver for SHTF? (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 12/16/2008 8:35:34 AM EDT
| IF you have the money is today as good a time as any to buy Silver 1oz rounds @$13 each?. I know Silver is up right now, But I snoozed. |
| The value of silver is artificial and silver only has value if other people believe that it has value/ want to give you stuff (or money) for your silver. $13 is a lot less than where silver peaked out at, but it can still go a lot lower too. I think that you would be better off putting the money into stuff you can actually use- but if you want to gamble on silver, go for it. |
|
I don't follow the idea that metals will not be suitable for trade if dollars have no value.
True, you cannot eat it or do anything useful with it in itself, but precious metals will always be suitable for trade. I wouldn't rely on any one thing though. Have some metals. Have some tradeable goods - seed stocks, commodities like alcohol or tobacco, even excess dried or canned goods. |
|
Precious metals are a sound investment for a SHTF event as has been proven time and again throughout history. Lots of data to prove the point.
Precious metals are an unknown for an EOTWAWKI event as one has not occured as of yet, no data to back up the theory. best advice: buy silver/gold as a SUPPLIMENT to other barter/trade materials such as ammo, food, booze,smokes,TP, etc. Where one man may scoff at your shiney round trinkets and want the bullets, another may jump at the chance for the silver. Hedge your bets, increase your chance for survival and diversify. (and yes now is a great time to buy silver! :) ) |
|
The value of precious metals is based on two things, their use in industry for jewellery, electronics, etc and their value to people who think they have "intrinsic" value.
Take away industrial uses and you're just left with people who believe precious metals are valuable even though they have little use for anything other than shiny bobbles. When people are starving I don't think "intrinsic" value is going to hold much weight. And before the shiny metal koolaid drinkers chime in about how precious metals have always had value remember salt was once the currency of the day. And right now I doubt you could trade a pound of salt for a cup of coffee. Now I can't tell you what gold or silver will be worth after a shtf but I can tell you no matter what happens you can't eat them or shoot a bad guy with them. If you have all the beans, bandaids, and bullets you'll ever need and money coming out of your ears then sure why not put some in precious metals. But until you are set up with a fully stocked BOL, there are many things that will most likely be more valuable to you than some shiny metal. |
|
If someone were to place 14 pieces of TP on the ground anywhere in the world, and a 1 oz. silver coin, which would be the first to be picked up? Or which would be left at the end of day?
One has a store of value, the other is simply useful for pretty much one or two things, mostly associated with fecal matter. Some folks want silver to be worthless, but do not understand it may never happen. |
I think that since the local bank is paying next to nothing for interest. Paper money is falling in value at an alarming rate and there IS more than one type of SHTF. Maybe having PORTABLE wealth of some type is not a bad idea. I think PMs are a good long term investment, Because the shit might NOT hit the fan
|
|
Throughout human history there has been war, famine, plague, etc. Gold and silver were valuable then,are valuable now, and will be valuable in the future, especially when the worldwide system of fiat money is painfully exposed for what it is.
Gold is money, silver is money. It should be included in your preps. |
|
I have been recently buying gold and silver as I have most of the basics covered. My intent is not so much for teotwawki but for the period coming up were we will see hyperinflation and the coming depression. I don't have much money so I'm just intent on preserving the value of a few thousand dollars every few months. Although I'm not a FerFal fan per se, I think he is right about an Argentina-style collapse, thus I will keep buying gold and silver as my finances allow. If I lose a bit of my money on price decreases then so be it. It's the cost of the insurance policy. I also won't buy anything except minted coins even though they cost more than rounds.
|
|
I feel for the guys that thought it was a "good investment" at $20.00 per coin, they've lost half the "value" of there "investment."
Ditto with gold at $1,000. I'm sure a LOT of folks that have been hearing this "gold is going to run to $2,500 and silver to $50.00" thought it WAS happening when gold hit 1,000. and silver $20.00 They are stuck just like the dumbarses that bought $40K chipboard McMansions for $300K thinking they would "flip" it for quick money. What's that Scripture verse about "he who hastens to be rich..."? I've been living at my retreat for almost a decade, there is ALWAYS something else you need to do, fix or get for a working retreat/homestead. Lowdown3 |
|
Quoted:
I feel for the guys that thought it was a "good investment" at $20.00 per coin, they've lost half the "value" of there "investment." Ditto with gold at $1,000. I'm sure a LOT of folks that have been hearing this "gold is going to run to $2,500 and silver to $50.00" thought it WAS happening when gold hit 1,000. and silver $20.00 They are stuck just like the dumbarses that bought $40K chipboard McMansions for $300K thinking they would "flip" it for quick money. What's that Scripture verse about "he who hastens to be rich..."? I've been living at my retreat for almost a decade, there is ALWAYS something else you need to do, fix or get for a working retreat/homestead. Lowdown3 I pretty much agree with you when it comes to "investments" in gold and silver. However, what is safer? Paper assets in a bank, or physical gold or silver? Especially right now. I think there are lots of us who are taking some percentage of our money and putting it into tangibles. To me, these tangibles not only consist of ammo, food, tools, weapons, etc. but also some gold and silver. I don't understand why those who prepare in every other area are so negative about having *some* gold and silver. Thanks |
|
Quoted:
I'm not knocking your line of thinking but how many people have lost saving's account money (in this Country) due to their bank folding lately? vs. how many house fires, thefts, etc.? How about the last few generations? Sure it could happen, but the likelihood is rather small. My insurance company will only cover $10k in gold/silver coinage so more than that and I'm out should a fire something like that happen. I understand people wanting their wealth to be in their possession when times are rough but statistically speaking, much safer in the bank. That said, I don't have utmost trust in anyone and I do keep some cash, gold, and silver at home as well, just not too much.
I pretty much agree with you when it comes to "investments" in gold and silver. However, what is safer? Paper assets in a bank, or physical gold or silver? Especially right now. I think there are lots of us who are taking some percentage of our money and putting it into tangibles. To me, these tangibles not only consist of ammo, food, tools, weapons, etc. but also some gold and silver. I don't understand why those who prepare in every other area are so negative about having *some* gold and silver. Thanks If deflation really does hit hard, gold will likely go down, but I can't call that - I really don't know what's going to happen next. *Some* gold/silver is a good long term hedge against inflation but I wouldn't put too much money there, after all - just a hedge. JMO |
|
Gold and silver are stores of wealth. A LOT of different things have been used as currency over the years but while the peasants were using salt because that was all they had the royalty was using gold and silver. Obviously, other currencies and items of value will be commonly traded. Even now, with our fiat system in place, governments, banks and other financial institutions still have stores of gold.
How many 48 packs of toilet paper can you buy before you run out of room? How many can you carry with you when there's something else you need and you have to go to the local market for it? How many guns and cases of ammo do you want to have lying around? Once again, when that's what you have a surplus of and you need to trade them for something else do you really think that you'll be able to waltz into the local market and trade them for something you need? Obviously, you'll find people who want them but good luck getting past the JBTs with them. The government already demonizes people who own a lot of guns and who have a lot of ammo lying around whenever they find out about them. With BHO just a few weeks away from the white house do you really think that it's not going to get 100x worse, especially in the midst of a crisis? The door to door gun grabs may be just outside the realm of possibility but there's a MUCH better chance of that happening than gold being worth nothing. Gold didn't stay at $1000 for long. It hovered around $900 for several months then it momentarily shot up and then plummeted back down. When it hit $1000 everyone was selling. Even today, with spot sitting at $800 an ounce, the market for physical gold is still right around $900-$1000 an ounce. If you find it for less then it's because you found someone who's desperate or clueless. It will go back up and it will likely stay higher than it is now. Even if the economy gets back on track and fixes itself you can expect silver to sit comfortably at around $800-$900 an ounce until the next major crisis just like it stayed at around $400 for many years. The same goes for silver. For years it was around $5-$7. Then it shot up and hovered around $15 for a year or so. When it shot up to $20 everyone sold and it drove the spot price down to $10. Now it's almost impossible to find physical silver for less than $15 an ounce despite the fact that the spot price has been $10 for months. The spot price for both will likely go through the roof again at some point before the economy gets back on track (if it ever does in it's present form). The only way that gold will be worth nothing is if there is a massive die off on an epic scale. Think "The Road" where everything is destroyed, very few people are left alive and for some reason or another we can't grow any more crops for several years. If all we have to deal with is our economy crashing and people stop trusting the currency then gold and silver will be the absolute best investment that you can have. There will still be a government. There will still be some semblance of law and order. In that case, which is the most likely scenario right now, we could see huge swings in the value of our currency on a daily basis and gold and silver will adjust accordingly. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm not knocking your line of thinking but how many people have lost saving's account money (in this Country) due to their bank folding lately? vs. how many house fires, thefts, etc.? How about the last few generations? Sure it could happen, but the likelihood is rather small. My insurance company will only cover $10k in gold/silver coinage so more than that and I'm out should a fire something like that happen. I understand people wanting their wealth to be in their possession when times are rough but statistically speaking, much safer in the bank. That said, I don't have utmost trust in anyone and I do keep some cash, gold, and silver at home as well, just not too much.
I pretty much agree with you when it comes to "investments" in gold and silver. However, what is safer? Paper assets in a bank, or physical gold or silver? Especially right now. I think there are lots of us who are taking some percentage of our money and putting it into tangibles. To me, these tangibles not only consist of ammo, food, tools, weapons, etc. but also some gold and silver. I don't understand why those who prepare in every other area are so negative about having *some* gold and silver. Thanks If deflation really does hit hard, gold will likely go down, but I can't call that - I really don't know what's going to happen next. *Some* gold/silver is a good long term hedge against inflation but I wouldn't put too much money there, after all - just a hedge. JMO I completely agree with you. Fortunately(hah) I am only talking about 15-20k in disposable assets since I'm poor :). Anything larger than that and you should have that money working for you, somehow. I guess it's like keeping a month or two worth of cash around in case of short-term disasters. I think given the craziness that is going on we have to cover as many possibilities as we can. Thanks |
|
The title of the thread begs the question of whether we are talking about using PMs as a safe haven for storing wealth during hard times - or we are talking about using it for trade in hard times.
I personally have little interest in the former. If folks want to sink money into that - more power to them. For trade or barter - I personally believe that PMs are an intermediate form of trade. In difficult times - no-one NEEDS PMs. They need food, water, fuel, protection, medicine etc - but no one actually needs PMs. I'd rather have $10K in food, fuel or medicine than $10K in silver. Intermediate form of trade need to assayed and there is certain to be great debate and differences over their perceived value at any given SHTF time. I'd rather take food or medicine in trade than silver.... at least I know that I can turn that food/medicine into another deal quickly and easily. While I understand the portability perspective - I also don't plan on wandering the earth with my life's possessions in my backpack. Perhaps some other do. Different people see themselves in different circumstances - and thus should focus their preparations in different directions. |
|
Quoted:
I think they kinda go hand in hand to a degree. If you're planning on using them for trade in hard times, you've got to get and store them at some point, no?
The title of the thread begs the question of whether we are talking about using PMs as a safe haven for storing wealth during hard times - or we are talking about using it for trade in hard times. Different people see themselves in different circumstances - and thus should focus their preparations in different directions. agreed
|
|
I bought @13 an oz. I stopped by the same place today and it will now cost $13.95 and oz. I bought again and wished I'd bought more yesterday instead.
As for food, fuel and ammo, I don't dare buy anymore arms and ammo. The other things are fine also. I'm trying to protect my megar savings from deflation, SHTF or not. |
|
Quoted:
The value of silver is artificial and silver only has value if other people believe that it has value No, that's paper your thinking of. Paper money only has value if people think it has value and accept it for purchases. Gold and silver have intrinsic value because they can be used for many purposes and have a finite supply. When a $100 bill and a $1 bill are virtually worth the same, and that day will come, they will be only be worth the value they provide as sources of heat or toilet paper. Silver will still be used in jewelry, science, and electronics and it will still have value. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I feel for the guys that thought it was a "good investment" at $20.00 per coin, they've lost half the "value" of there "investment." Ditto with gold at $1,000. I'm sure a LOT of folks that have been hearing this "gold is going to run to $2,500 and silver to $50.00" thought it WAS happening when gold hit 1,000. and silver $20.00 They are stuck just like the dumbarses that bought $40K chipboard McMansions for $300K thinking they would "flip" it for quick money. What's that Scripture verse about "he who hastens to be rich..."? I've been living at my retreat for almost a decade, there is ALWAYS something else you need to do, fix or get for a working retreat/homestead. Lowdown3 I pretty much agree with you when it comes to "investments" in gold and silver. However, what is safer? Paper assets in a bank, or physical gold or silver? Especially right now. I think there are lots of us who are taking some percentage of our money and putting it into tangibles. To me, these tangibles not only consist of ammo, food, tools, weapons, etc. but also some gold and silver. I don't understand why those who prepare in every other area are so negative about having *some* gold and silver. Thanks Oh don't get me wrong, I have "some" silver and gold. Like most of us, I bought it early on when honestly, I had given little thoughts to my ACTUAL NEEDS as a survivor. In the early 90's (was just out of school and started to make money and prep in earnest), I bought silver and later more as a novelty, I purchased a Kruggerand. Sure they have went up in price since then, but less than what a 5% bank CD would have over that time period. So "hedge against inflation"- sorry I ain't buying that one! Microsoft stock purchased in the early 90's would be worth what right now? Most people get this idea that they "need" PM's and get them LONG before they have a decent amount of food put up, before they have all the logistics squared away for there weapons systems, before they have adequate medical supplies, before they have acquired much training, etc. etc. Paying off debts, etc. In other words, most of us could be better served putting our money elsewhere. This is a "consumer" society and the American way is to "buy" yourself out of trouble, so it stands to reason that so many people think that gold and silver are going to "save" them one day. There was an interesting thread some time back WHEN PM's were so high with a couple of folks complaining about how LITTLE they were offered for the coins. In other words, silver might be $10. an ounce, but the coin shop isn't going to give you $10. for it MOST of the time (I realize there is a shortage right now). Why not? Cause he is in BUSINESS and has to make money on it. It might be worth finding that old post and reviewing it. Best idea I've ever heard re: use of PM's was paying your property taxes in a long term depression type situation. I'm not "against" them, I just KNOW from doing this for a long time now that *FOR ME AT LEAST* that the money is better spent on other items.
It's all good. Just take the time to CRITICALLY review your preps. Are you planning on "buying" food with PM's later? Why not avoid the hassle and the possibility that none will be available- at the very least you'll be paying a HELLUVA LOT MORE- and buy the food now? The PM industry has spent a lot of marketing time and dollars over the last 40 years marketing there products to the preparedness market..... Lowdown3 |
|
I think its a good idea to have some silver. I think ammo will be a great bartering item as well...maybe better. I often struggle with this topic myself. If I have $13 to spend and I buy one silver coin and laterspend $13 to buy one brick of 22 ammo...which will buy me more in a SHTF situation. I would think I could end up buying a lot more with the 500 rounds of 22 than one small silver coin. That is not to say I couldnt find someone who would value the silver but I'd think there would be more of a need for items people can use, etc. The upside to the 22 ammo is I can use it in a functional level if I dont find something I need to buy where the silver will just be sitting, etc.
My two cents. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I feel for the guys that thought it was a "good investment" at $20.00 per coin, they've lost half the "value" of there "investment." Ditto with gold at $1,000. I'm sure a LOT of folks that have been hearing this "gold is going to run to $2,500 and silver to $50.00" thought it WAS happening when gold hit 1,000. and silver $20.00 They are stuck just like the dumbarses that bought $40K chipboard McMansions for $300K thinking they would "flip" it for quick money. What's that Scripture verse about "he who hastens to be rich..."? I've been living at my retreat for almost a decade, there is ALWAYS something else you need to do, fix or get for a working retreat/homestead. Lowdown3 I pretty much agree with you when it comes to "investments" in gold and silver. However, what is safer? Paper assets in a bank, or physical gold or silver? Especially right now. I think there are lots of us who are taking some percentage of our money and putting it into tangibles. To me, these tangibles not only consist of ammo, food, tools, weapons, etc. but also some gold and silver. I don't understand why those who prepare in every other area are so negative about having *some* gold and silver. Thanks Oh don't get me wrong, I have "some" silver and gold. Like most of us, I bought it early on when honestly, I had given little thoughts to my ACTUAL NEEDS as a survivor. In the early 90's (was just out of school and started to make money and prep in earnest), I bought silver and later more as a novelty, I purchased a Kruggerand. Sure they have went up in price since then, but less than what a 5% bank CD would have over that time period. So "hedge against inflation"- sorry I ain't buying that one! Microsoft stock purchased in the early 90's would be worth what right now? Most people get this idea that they "need" PM's and get them LONG before they have a decent amount of food put up, before they have all the logistics squared away for there weapons systems, before they have adequate medical supplies, before they have acquired much training, etc. etc. Paying off debts, etc. In other words, most of us could be better served putting our money elsewhere. This is a "consumer" society and the American way is to "buy" yourself out of trouble, so it stands to reason that so many people think that gold and silver are going to "save" them one day. There was an interesting thread some time back WHEN PM's were so high with a couple of folks complaining about how LITTLE they were offered for the coins. In other words, silver might be $10. an ounce, but the coin shop isn't going to give you $10. for it MOST of the time (I realize there is a shortage right now). Why not? Cause he is in BUSINESS and has to make money on it. It might be worth finding that old post and reviewing it. Best idea I've ever heard re: use of PM's was paying your property taxes in a long term depression type situation. I'm not "against" them, I just KNOW from doing this for a long time now that *FOR ME AT LEAST* that the money is better spent on other items.
It's all good. Just take the time to CRITICALLY review your preps. Are you planning on "buying" food with PM's later? Why not avoid the hassle and the possibility that none will be available- at the very least you'll be paying a HELLUVA LOT MORE- and buy the food now? The PM industry has spent a lot of marketing time and dollars over the last 40 years marketing there products to the preparedness market..... Lowdown3 So "hedge against inflation"- sorry I ain't buying that one! Example: in 1940 a loaf of bread cost 10 cents, paid for with a 90% silver dime. 68 years later a 90% silver dime is still worth around the price of a loaf of bread (80 cents to 1$). So, historically silver has basically kept up with inflation. Now in 1940 would it have been better to invest that money in something else? Maybe, maybe not, but just looking at historical inflation silver/gold have proven to be a hedge against inflation. |
|
Quoted:
The value of silver the USD is artificial and silver the USD only has value if other people believe that it has value/ want to give you stuff (or money) for your silver USD. What makes it any different from any other form of currency? I personally feel that PM's are the place to be right now as USD’s are in for a long devaluing road. |
|
Well it's always been a standard to keep %10 of your portfolio in PM's. One should also remember that PM's such as gold and silver have many functions. In good times people collect coins of silver and gold for a hobby or to make a few dollars. In bad times gold and silver serve as insurance against bad things as they are easily converted into cash if needed. Of course in really bad times they revert to the status of currency as they have since the beginning of civilization.
Plus there is nothing like the feel of several silver dollars in ones pocket or purse |
|
Quoted:
Whats the easiest place to buy silver from online? Coins or bullion. APMEX is a good place with a good reputation. You might be able to find better deals on coins, but be aware that buying coins for their numismatic value is a separate kind of investing than just buying metals. You can spend a lot more, and loose a lot more if you're not careful. Bullion is pretty widely available right now, but typically goes for more than common coins, compared by weight. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I feel for the guys that thought it was a "good investment" at $20.00 per coin, they've lost half the "value" of there "investment." Ditto with gold at $1,000. I'm sure a LOT of folks that have been hearing this "gold is going to run to $2,500 and silver to $50.00" thought it WAS happening when gold hit 1,000. and silver $20.00 They are stuck just like the dumbarses that bought $40K chipboard McMansions for $300K thinking they would "flip" it for quick money. What's that Scripture verse about "he who hastens to be rich..."? I've been living at my retreat for almost a decade, there is ALWAYS something else you need to do, fix or get for a working retreat/homestead. Lowdown3 I pretty much agree with you when it comes to "investments" in gold and silver. However, what is safer? Paper assets in a bank, or physical gold or silver? Especially right now. I think there are lots of us who are taking some percentage of our money and putting it into tangibles. To me, these tangibles not only consist of ammo, food, tools, weapons, etc. but also some gold and silver. I don't understand why those who prepare in every other area are so negative about having *some* gold and silver. Thanks Oh don't get me wrong, I have "some" silver and gold. Like most of us, I bought it early on when honestly, I had given little thoughts to my ACTUAL NEEDS as a survivor. In the early 90's (was just out of school and started to make money and prep in earnest), I bought silver and later more as a novelty, I purchased a Kruggerand. Sure they have went up in price since then, but less than what a 5% bank CD would have over that time period. So "hedge against inflation"- sorry I ain't buying that one! Microsoft stock purchased in the early 90's would be worth what right now? Most people get this idea that they "need" PM's and get them LONG before they have a decent amount of food put up, before they have all the logistics squared away for there weapons systems, before they have adequate medical supplies, before they have acquired much training, etc. etc. Paying off debts, etc. In other words, most of us could be better served putting our money elsewhere. This is a "consumer" society and the American way is to "buy" yourself out of trouble, so it stands to reason that so many people think that gold and silver are going to "save" them one day. There was an interesting thread some time back WHEN PM's were so high with a couple of folks complaining about how LITTLE they were offered for the coins. In other words, silver might be $10. an ounce, but the coin shop isn't going to give you $10. for it MOST of the time (I realize there is a shortage right now). Why not? Cause he is in BUSINESS and has to make money on it. It might be worth finding that old post and reviewing it. Best idea I've ever heard re: use of PM's was paying your property taxes in a long term depression type situation. I'm not "against" them, I just KNOW from doing this for a long time now that *FOR ME AT LEAST* that the money is better spent on other items.
It's all good. Just take the time to CRITICALLY review your preps. Are you planning on "buying" food with PM's later? Why not avoid the hassle and the possibility that none will be available- at the very least you'll be paying a HELLUVA LOT MORE- and buy the food now? The PM industry has spent a lot of marketing time and dollars over the last 40 years marketing there products to the preparedness market..... Lowdown3 So "hedge against inflation"- sorry I ain't buying that one! Example: in 1940 a loaf of bread cost 10 cents, paid for with a 90% silver dime. 68 years later a 90% silver dime is still worth around the price of a loaf of bread (80 cents to 1$). So, historically silver has basically kept up with inflation. Now in 1940 would it have been better to invest that money in something else? Maybe, maybe not, but just looking at historical inflation silver/gold have proven to be a hedge against inflation. Well in the history of my life, silver has just kept up with bank CD's. Actually during the early 2000's when money markets could be found for 6% it would have done less than that. I'll be adding on to my alternate energy system, bringing my panel count from 14 to 20 before I buy any more PM's. The time to buy PM's is after *You have at least a year supply of food *You are COMPLETELY out of debt *You have a year of income in cash set aside *Your battery of weapons is complete and the accompanying logistics for these is squared away. *You have at least a basic set of tools- mechanics, carpentry, homesteading stuff, etc. *You have a SECURE place to go away from the cities *Your medical preps are squared away *Your plan for water is much more than just a "plan" *Basic gear needs are met *You've acquired some decent training in more than just shooting *Your family is on board with the plan, not just tag alongs *Your basic reference library is acquired These would be the minimums I would do FIRST before making any SERIOUS "investments" in PM's- |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I feel for the guys that thought it was a "good investment" at $20.00 per coin, they've lost half the "value" of there "investment." Ditto with gold at $1,000. I'm sure a LOT of folks that have been hearing this "gold is going to run to $2,500 and silver to $50.00" thought it WAS happening when gold hit 1,000. and silver $20.00 They are stuck just like the dumbarses that bought $40K chipboard McMansions for $300K thinking they would "flip" it for quick money. What's that Scripture verse about "he who hastens to be rich..."? I've been living at my retreat for almost a decade, there is ALWAYS something else you need to do, fix or get for a working retreat/homestead. Lowdown3 I pretty much agree with you when it comes to "investments" in gold and silver. However, what is safer? Paper assets in a bank, or physical gold or silver? Especially right now. I think there are lots of us who are taking some percentage of our money and putting it into tangibles. To me, these tangibles not only consist of ammo, food, tools, weapons, etc. but also some gold and silver. I don't understand why those who prepare in every other area are so negative about having *some* gold and silver. Thanks Oh don't get me wrong, I have "some" silver and gold. Like most of us, I bought it early on when honestly, I had given little thoughts to my ACTUAL NEEDS as a survivor. In the early 90's (was just out of school and started to make money and prep in earnest), I bought silver and later more as a novelty, I purchased a Kruggerand. Sure they have went up in price since then, but less than what a 5% bank CD would have over that time period. So "hedge against inflation"- sorry I ain't buying that one! Microsoft stock purchased in the early 90's would be worth what right now? Most people get this idea that they "need" PM's and get them LONG before they have a decent amount of food put up, before they have all the logistics squared away for there weapons systems, before they have adequate medical supplies, before they have acquired much training, etc. etc. Paying off debts, etc. In other words, most of us could be better served putting our money elsewhere. This is a "consumer" society and the American way is to "buy" yourself out of trouble, so it stands to reason that so many people think that gold and silver are going to "save" them one day. There was an interesting thread some time back WHEN PM's were so high with a couple of folks complaining about how LITTLE they were offered for the coins. In other words, silver might be $10. an ounce, but the coin shop isn't going to give you $10. for it MOST of the time (I realize there is a shortage right now). Why not? Cause he is in BUSINESS and has to make money on it. It might be worth finding that old post and reviewing it. Best idea I've ever heard re: use of PM's was paying your property taxes in a long term depression type situation. I'm not "against" them, I just KNOW from doing this for a long time now that *FOR ME AT LEAST* that the money is better spent on other items.
It's all good. Just take the time to CRITICALLY review your preps. Are you planning on "buying" food with PM's later? Why not avoid the hassle and the possibility that none will be available- at the very least you'll be paying a HELLUVA LOT MORE- and buy the food now? The PM industry has spent a lot of marketing time and dollars over the last 40 years marketing there products to the preparedness market..... Lowdown3 So "hedge against inflation"- sorry I ain't buying that one! Example: in 1940 a loaf of bread cost 10 cents, paid for with a 90% silver dime. 68 years later a 90% silver dime is still worth around the price of a loaf of bread (80 cents to 1$). So, historically silver has basically kept up with inflation. Now in 1940 would it have been better to invest that money in something else? Maybe, maybe not, but just looking at historical inflation silver/gold have proven to be a hedge against inflation. Hedge against inflation, yes... Actually, you just need more dollars & cents to have the same purchasing power... The Federal Reserve was charged with keeping the dollar value, and all they have done is print dollars and ruin the value... Its a con... real money is gold and silver... Founding fathers warned us of this... Article 1 section 8 of the Constitution... the 19`13 Federal Reserve ACT passed by Congress is not an amendment, is illegal and un-constitutional and should be abolished today... Note: 1 inflation - in increase money supply (rising prices are the result of rising money supply) 2 to change the constitution, you must have the states ratify an amendment |
|
THe survivalist wet dream of a "barter economy" (much like the ramboesqe, strap on 20 mags, an AR/AK, two pistols, and yadda yadda and run around saving damsels) will last a very short time if there is a COMPLETE and UTTER loss of civilization. THere will be opprotunities for barter of hard goods and skills (heck I already do it) BUT that will not last long, there has always been a form of currency (natives had trade beads and trade silver) for large transactions, and for those that need to transport wealth... How much TP will it take to buy 20 head of cattle???? I wouldnt give you two pumpkin seeds for a roll of tp cause I got corncobs! 
Rikki |
|
Quoted:
I think its a good idea to have some silver. I think ammo will be a great bartering item as well...maybe better. I often struggle with this topic myself. If I have $13 to spend and I buy one silver coin and laterspend $13 to buy one brick of 22 ammo...which will buy me more in a SHTF situation. I would think I could end up buying a lot more with the 500 rounds of 22 than one small silver coin. That is not to say I couldnt find someone who would value the silver but I'd think there would be more of a need for items people can use, etc. The upside to the 22 ammo is I can use it in a functional level if I dont find something I need to buy where the silver will just be sitting, etc. My two cents. A SHTF event has limited duration and limited area of influence. Given you can drive (and in most situations WALK) out of the affected area of a SHTF event; I'd stick with option 3. . .use paper money that the rest of the nation will be using when your small area is impacted by the SHTF event. If you really meant to say "Silver for EOTWAWKI" then the answer is "nobody knows, as nobody on these boards. . .hell in the world has been through one to offer up any experiance." |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I think its a good idea to have some silver. I think ammo will be a great bartering item as well...maybe better. I often struggle with this topic myself. If I have $13 to spend and I buy one silver coin and laterspend $13 to buy one brick of 22 ammo...which will buy me more in a SHTF situation. I would think I could end up buying a lot more with the 500 rounds of 22 than one small silver coin. That is not to say I couldnt find someone who would value the silver but I'd think there would be more of a need for items people can use, etc. The upside to the 22 ammo is I can use it in a functional level if I dont find something I need to buy where the silver will just be sitting, etc. My two cents. A SHTF event has limited duration and limited area of influence. Given you can drive (and in most situations WALK) out of the affected area of a SHTF event; I'd stick with option 3. . .use paper money that the rest of the nation will be using when your small area is impacted by the SHTF event. If you really meant to say "Silver for EOTWAWKI" then the answer is "nobody knows, as nobody on these boards. . .hell in the world has been through one to offer up any experiance." What does one do when Dollars arent accepted in the ole USofA? I promise you, at some point in our lifetime, the USdollar will collapse and the United States will need to change its monetary system.... We cant print money and create money by adding zeros to balance sheets like the Fed seems to do daily now and expect the fiat currency to hold up... Impossible... Never in history has it happend before where a country prints its way out of debt and not have an economic collapse and riots in the streets to overthrow the gubment that did it... Not once... Rome, Nazi Germany after WWII, Argentina and Zimbabwa... Gold and silver is real money, period.... the U.S. has ony had this paper crap for a few years... and they cant help themselves but print more when in trouble. The problem is, the problem is too big for the rest of the world is owed to much this time.... Peter Schiff had a great article Wednesday... I lifted it and posted here... Read on... http://www.europac.net/externalframeset.asp?from=home&id=14928 December 17, 2008 In Madoff We Trust As the multi-billion dollar Ponzi scheme orchestrated by Wall Street insider Bernard Madoff unravels in the media spotlight, the nation is being presented with a rare opportunity to understand the true nature of many of our most cherished financial structures. Hopefully we have the wisdom to connect the dots. Although the $50 billion loss engineered by Madoff is truly a staggering accomplishment (and was done using old-fashioned fraud rather than the mathematical wizardry that has characterized Wall Street’s recent larcenies) the size of the scheme pales in comparison to the multi-trillion dollar Ponzi structures run by the United States government. In fact, rather than looking to jail Madoff, President-elect Obama should consider making him our new Treasury secretary. If not that, at least make him the czar of something! Madoff’s inspiration came from Charles Ponzi, the Italian-born American immigrant who promoted an investment plan in the early 1900s’ that traded postal coupons. Rather than paying investors from legitimate investment returns, Ponzi hit upon the innovative idea of paying out early investors with money collected from new investors. By creating an illusion of success, interest in his investment plan ballooned. Over time the schemes have become known by many other names, such as chain letters or pyramid schemes. They are united by the fact that they always fail in the end. When the influx of new investors inevitably slows to the point where distributions to current investors can no longer be maintained, investors look to withdraw funds. When this happens, the entire structure falls apart. The profits received by those who “invested” early as well so any funds skimmed off by the promoter, are offset by all the losses of those who came late to the party. To a large extent, the same concept has driven the major asset bubbles of the last decade. Given the ridiculously high valuations that were assigned to tech stocks and real estate during their respective booms, the only way the bubbles could be perpetuated was if newer “investors” could be found to pay even more outrageous prices (the greater fool). But when these new buyers balked, the whole structure crumbled. Although there was no Ponzi or Madoff to orchestrate these manias, the entire financial and economic apparatus of the country had successfully convinced the public that “investments” in tech stocks and condominiums were bullet proof and that the supply of new buyers was endless. Unfortunately, the Ponzi economy doesn’t stop there. A chain letter is no more viable when run by governments than when run by private citizens. However, government orchestrated pyramids have the advantage of required participation. As a result, they can maintain the illusion of viability for several generations. But the longer such schemes operate the larger will be the losses when they ultimately collapse. The Social Security Administration runs its “trust funds” with precisely the same methods used by Madoff and Ponzi. As money is collected by from current workers, the funds are then dispersed to those already receiving benefits. None of the funds collected are actually invested, so no investment returns are ever generated. Those currently paying into the system are expected to receive their returns based on the “contribution” made by future workers. This is the classic definition of a Ponzi scheme. The only difference is that Ponzi didn’t own a printing press. The United States Government runs its own balance sheet based on the Ponzi principal as well. Our national debt always grows and never shrinks. As existing debt matures, proceeds are repaid by issuing new debt. Interest payments on existing debt are also made by selling new debt to investors. The whole scheme depends on an ever growing supply of new lenders, or the willingness of existing lenders, to continue to roll over maturing notes. Of course, as was the case with Madoff, if enough of our creditors want their money back, the music stops playing. In Madoff’s case, the rug pulling was provided by the huge financial losses suffered by some of his clients in other non-Madoff investments. When enough of these clients looked to sell some of their apparently well-performing Madoff assets to help offset such losses, the scam collapsed. The same thing could befall the United States Government. Now that China and our other creditors are looking to spend some of their U.S. Treasury holdings to stimulate their own economies, look for a similar outcome with even more dire implications. The main difference is that while Madoff took elaborate steps to conceal his scheme, the U.S. government operates in broad daylight. It truly is amazing how faith in government is so pervasive that many can believe that politicians will succeed where private individuals fail, and that governments are somehow immune to the economic laws that govern the rest of society. Like those unfortunate to have been duped by Madoff and Ponzi, the world is in for a rude awakening. |
|
http://www.europac.net/externalframeset.asp?from=home&id=14965
December 19, 2008 2009—LIKELY VINTAGE YEAR FOR GOLD The Federal Reserve estimates that in the past year losses in real estate, stocks and mortgages have sucked out some $7.2 trillion of wealth from the U.S. economy. Some are now putting the figure at $20 trillion. A massive recession is starting and will likely spread throughout much of the world. These forces have exerted their classic strong downward pressure on the price of gold. In addition, the $700 billion TARP fund to salvage the American financial system, and large amounts spent by other governments to protect their own banks, has greatly reduced the fear of a financial breakdown. As a result, the financial panic insurance value of gold was largely eroded, adding further downward price pressure. 2008 was a volatile year for gold. Prices have gyrated quite violently between the $700’s and $1,000, or by some 25 to 30 percent. This volatility alone acts as a depressing influence on gold prices as it discourages the belief that gold is a credible investment. The world’s major governments long have sought to eradicate gold as a monetary measure in order to remove the last vestiges of monetary discipline and to clear the field for massive government over-spending and inflation. In 1968, the London Gold Poll was abolished. In 1978, America forced a further move, via the IMF, to write gold out of the international money supply. In August 1971, President Nixon broke the U.S. dollar-gold exchange link. In September 1999, the United States, while being careful to keep its own gold stocks intact, led other major nations, in the first of two so-called ‘Central Bank Gold Agreements’ to flood the gold market with sales of gold. In 1999, the central banks held some 33,000 tonnes, or one quarter of all mined gold. The effect of government gold sales was potentially very bearish for gold. Gold market observers, who have studied the pattern of IMF gold sales, allege that the sales are timed to cause the maximum volatility in the price of gold, to discourage investment. More recently, there are allegations that the Government has allowed certain institutions to engage in massive naked short selling of gold and silver. This has caused distortions in the gold price that do not reflect genuine market pressures. In short, they amount to market manipulation. A fair conclusion is that gold is cheap and that its present price does not truly reflect market conditions. On December 16th, the Fed announced, as we have long forecast, a further cut in interest rates to between zero and 0.25 percent. It also announced ‘unlimited’ support to buy assets from beleaguered institutions. The amount of debt and new money injected into the economy should progressively raise inflation alarm bells. The fire of future inflation is being stoked alarmingly, but the recessive forces of deleveraging are concealing it temporarily. The Fed looks desperate. This could lead to feelings of panic and upward pressure on the gold price. Investors should also especially be concerned as to who will repay these massive debts. The conventional answer of politicians is “taxpayers”. But this is a serious understatement. Any depreciation of the U.S. dollar means that every American citizen and every single holder of U.S. dollars throughout the world will suffer from monetary loss and a severely reduced standard of living. In 1934, facing a depression President Roosevelt first confiscated gold from every American. Then, he unilaterally devalued the U.S. dollar by 75 percent against gold. At a stroke, FDR wiped out 75 percent of the dollar denominated debt of the U.S. Treasury. As both President-Elect Obama and Fed chairman Bernanke are students of FDR, we face the real possibility of a massive devaluation of the U.S. dollar against gold in 2009. –––––––––––––––– BUY GOLD NOW... THE NEW GOLD RUSH IS NEAR, YOU WONT HAVE TO DIG IT UP, JUST SELL WHAT YOU HAVE TO THOSE DESPERATE FOR IT.... Prices are on the fourth floor of a hundred and fifty story building and it will go to the top floor before Obama's re-election... |
|
Quoted:
Major snip of irrealavent information We're talking about silver and gold's usefulness in a SHTF situation. A complete economic collapse isn't a SHTF event; it's much worse. A SHTF event is rioting, floods, wilfires, ice storms, NCB, dirty nuke, tornado, hurricane, drought, etc. By definition of the term, it is a limited duration event with a limited area of influence. An economic collapse of the USD would be an international impacting event; thus *NOT* a SHTF event. |
|
Quoted:
http://www.europac.net/externalframeset.asp?from=home&id=14965 December 19, 2008 2009—LIKELY VINTAGE YEAR FOR GOLD ...blah...blah...blah... Of course written with a heavy slant by a company with gold and silver to sell. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Major snip of irrealavent information We're talking about silver and gold's usefulness in a SHTF situation. A complete economic collapse isn't a SHTF event; it's much worse. A SHTF event is rioting, floods, wilfires, ice storms, NCB, dirty nuke, tornado, hurricane, drought, etc. By definition of the term, it is a limited duration event with a limited area of influence. An economic collapse of the USD would be an international impacting event; thus *NOT* a SHTF event. I surely do not think that a SHTF situation is rioting,ice storms, tornado,hurricanes ,droughts, floods or wildfires. Those are just localized inconviences like the floods and wilfires that seem to be yearly events where I live. In my simple real world opinion a SHTF event is a major event like an economic collapse,a depression or wide spread event where normal govt functions have ceased. Saying that a economic collapse IS NOT a SHTF event is misinformed at the least. The usefulness of gold & silver in riots,floods,wildfires etc is unrealistic. Gold & silver are a useful universally accepted easily recognized and transported means of payment in a economic or currency collapse. Someday maybe sooner than we think taking paper money as payment will be as smart as taking your brother in laws check that always bounces. I have a couple gold claims I lease out and this year is the FIRST in the last 22 years that I have taken ALL my fees in gold. That is my plan until I see a major change in the US & world economic outlook. With the current bailout, prop it up, give it away and keep the printing press rolling 24/7 policy by holding gold I'll sleep a lot better. I have several years worth of food and goods and a lifetime + of ammo stashed so I think PM's are a good store of wealth at this time. It surely is NOT real estate,stocks,bonds & T bills that worked well for me in the past. This year being able to get a return OF my capital has been more important than a return ON my capital! Red |
|
Quoted:
If someone were to place 14 pieces of TP on the ground anywhere in the world, and a 1 oz. silver coin, which would be the first to be picked up? Or which would be left at the end of day? I guess it depends on how badly you want to wipe your ass. If things are so bad that we're actually using silver rounds to barter with, I think wiping one's ass with actual toilet paper might become a luxury worth having. |
|
Quoted:
I surely do not think that a SHTF situation is rioting,ice storms, tornado,hurricanes ,droughts, floods or wildfires. Those are just localized inconveniences[sic] like the floods and wildfires[sic] that seem to be yearly events where I live. Red Welcome to the Survival boards. Feel free to look through the past 8 years of archives to cross reference what constitutes a SHTF event by definition of the forum members here. Economic collapse is a situation in it's own category, somewhere between a SHTF and EOTWAWKI. yatta hey |
|
Well I found this site recently... Lurked for a year and starting posting a few weeks ago... I have learned alot on several issues, AR, Ammo, survival, gear and links to vendor websites..
Economic collapse will have SHTF at the start all over the USA... I fear a total collapse of local and federal agencies for periods of time stretching into years in some areas of this country... My wife, I and many coworkers are preparing... Born and raised in New Orleans and lived through Katrina, I have some "spirience" in what is going to probably be on a much larger scale... I feel some here are to quick to think that a SHTF scenario is just a couple days... Katrina was weeks... Just cause TV had the military in after 8 days didnt make life here better, actually worse, those clowns were just the biggest gang with the best guns... Now on europac, he may be selling gold and silver... but you can call them and get advice and not even be a customer... Mr Schiff has several books predicting a major collapse that will involve unrest... Jim Rogers and David Tyce also are lock step with Peter's thinking... In fact, anyone who actually studies money/fiat currencies come to the exact same conclusion... Read Schiffs, Rogers or Tyce books... Europac.net, PrudentBear.com or just go to youtube.com and watch all three from years ago... The current crisis was truly started 1999 when Alan Greenspan starting the series of phony economies with the tech bubble, then the real estate bubble... Hyper inflation is next... Remember, inflation- to increase money supply, 2 to increase money supply which results in increases prices for goods and services in any event, best of luck to all you.... |
|
In a hyper inflation type situation metals may retain original value because there may still be an economy that is functioning. However, given a SHTF situation, metals will have little value and items of intrinsic use can be bartered with.
Metals are a good hedge against major inflation as long as the economy is functioning, otherwise not so much. Get some metals after you have a good supply of everything else |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Whats the easiest place to buy silver from online? Coins or bullion. APMEX is a good place with a good reputation. You might be able to find better deals on coins, but be aware that buying coins for their numismatic value is a separate kind of investing than just buying metals. You can spend a lot more, and loose a lot more if you're not careful. Bullion is pretty widely available right now, but typically goes for more than common coins, compared by weight. I've purchased from APMEX and never had any problems. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
How much TP will it take to buy 20 head of cattle???? I wouldnt give you two pumpkin seeds for a roll of tp cause I got corncobs!
Rikki Hahahaha, But you will trade me 2 cows for some Preperation H after rubbing your sphincter raw on corn cobs... Now thats funny 
|