Posted: 12/4/2008 7:24:43 PM EDT
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I recently got some property in Arizona, and we plan to set it up as a BOL and future retirement/vacation home.
It's completely undeveloped right now, but zoned for residential. I can get water run, but power will cost about $30K to get it run in. I'd actually rather run it off grid on a generator and then solar. For starters the house will be a trailer we'll drop there, but it's a full size double wide and so I'm thinking it might draw quite a bit of power. We won't have heat, and the stove and water will be on propane. Basically I figure the regular household appliances will need to be run off the genny or solar, and A/C is going to be a must if I plan on getting the wife out there. Does anyone have any good resources on how I can calculate how many watts I need to plan on for a generator/solar set up? Any recommendations, or things I should stay away from? It'll be a long term project over the next couple of years, so screaming deals right now are interesting but not helpful. I'm more interested in resources for general knowledge I can apply at the right time. Thanks guys. |
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I'm sure you'll get overwhelmed by better advice soon . . . but in the meantime, you can easily total up the wattage you need by looking at the data plate on each appliance/device you want to use. Just about everything that runs on electricity has printed on it somewhere its power consumption.
Just add it all up. |
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The best advice I can offer right now is wait on buying a generator.
Wait for these lower fuel & commodity prices to filter through the economy and prices will be lower by spring. Off the top of my head, a 7500/13.5k watt generator is a good start. A couple battery back up UPS sets will be a wise purchase as well. Those will electrically filter the power from the genny. BTW, buy the best quality genny you can afford. Honda, Yamaha or Subaru with a propane conversion or better yet mulit-fuel version. |
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Spend 9/10 of your time figuring out how to make your home more energy efficient/use less energy. I am assuming that the trailer isn't all that well insulated so you might want to start there. Low-E reflective insulation is outstanding if you can nail it to the bottom of your rafters. Instead of absorbing heat like batt insulation does it reflects more than 90% of it outside your home. It is relatively cheap and MUCH easier to work with than batt.
Not sure about your walls but someone here will chime in. Next, look at your big appliances and see if you can replace them with energy star appliances. As far as power generation, your going to need a decent sized genny to run your house especially when you throw in a central AC, dishwasher, clothes drier etc.. If local code allows I would also look into using wind power instead of solar. MUCH cheaper per watt cost, cheaper install and cheaper maintenance. Not sure how you would tie the two sources together (unless you have a big ass bank of batteries you are more than likely going to need the genny running to start any large appliance). |
| northerntool has a wattage chart here (about 1/3rd of the way down the page) that will give you a rough idea of what each item will draw. there are a lot of other wattage charts out there, some with a lot more detail, this is just the one i have book marked. |
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The news ran a story about a golf course putting in solar power to help cut costs and be green. Basically with the tax incentives it would "only" cost someone $5-$6K to go solar with a system. Also might consider the dome home for efficiency or building with Insulated Structural Panels.
http://www.gulfsouthsolar.com/ http://www.gulfsouthsolar.com/systems/ |
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P=I x R
Nameplates with the amperage or wattage are on most everything that you will be using. Add it all up and you have the wattage. For running a 4-5 ton central unit, you will need a minimum of 12KW. Look at the Lister set ups if money is tight. Got cash, get a 12-30 KW diesel genny with 500 gallon above ground tank. If you use 220V window units and only cool A FEW rooms you COULD get by with less than 12KW. |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJE6pvWAyVwBasic AE systems
Here's a series of 5 videos that will get you started. |
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I am usually over there at the AR15 or handgun side. This is the first time I have ventured over here. Good stuff.
I can tell you this from my hurricane outage experience. First you need to know what you want to run. If you want to run a "house" complete with stove, washer, a/c ect. In a house that is @ 2500 sq ft. 15,000 K is the minumum needed. Believe me, I used a small 5500 K gen for over 2 wks. It ran everything, not at once, with the exception of the stove, washer/dryer, a/c. Ceiling fans, tv, fridge and lights all at once. She ran hard. Anything that uses heat will draw alot of electricity. Coffee pot stove, toaster oven ect. I had to fill the 5 gallon tank @ almost twice a day. It ran 24 hours for 2 weeks. I changed the oil every third day. Generators here are pretty reasonable now, compared to what they were in the 2004 hurricane season. They have them runnig off diesel, gas and propane. You just have to figure out what you want. Good luck in your search. 
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Hay bro: Been of the grid for about 8 years this place has real good resources and not to much "Save the gay whales" nonsense http://www.backwoodssolar.com/ Just go to Calculate power usage
I have personaly used these folks they are friendly and knowledgeable Sonoutlaw |
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Thanks guys.
Here is the plan. Of the three acres, we plan to put a trailer on one and that will be our immediate "go to" house while the rest of the property gets set up. Eventually, we plan to transition my mother to that house after we build our own on the remaining two acres. We'll have septic, and I'm thinking of trying a grey water system to water the gardens. Water really won't be much of an issue though, as we are pretty sure the land will perk and we will have a well, plus the town has it's own water company that is well derived and then RO purified. (My MIL actually runs it) Hot water will be from a solar water heater, backed up by propane. My MIL has a similar set up and even in the winter the water gets into the 80's on just the sun, so hot water will use a minimum of power. Cooking appliances will be propane as well, and I'd try to get a gas dryer for clothes as well. Of course with the climate a clothesline will be more than adequate most of the time. I'd like to have all the 'comforts' of home, television, computer, etc... CFL lighting is a given, and we're going to insulate the hell out of the place. I also plan on planting shade trees and putting large awnings over the windows to cut down on solar heat. We could get power run, but with the distance from the current line it would be very costly. As time goes on, if more neighbors build and bring the line in closer then the cost goes down. Regardless, I'd like to have the 'off grid' capability merely as a survival issue. It'll probably be a combination of both a genny and solar. I'll solar and a battery bank that should hopefully keep stuff like the fridge going when the generator is off, and when we're home using the appliances we'll run the generator (and recharge the batts) The long term plan is build our house on the two acres. It'll be a straw bale house most likely, super thick walls make it very well insulated, from what I've heard it works better than almost any commercial insulation. It won't be a Bug Out Location in the sense that if something happens we can head there to wait it out, but more in the sense that if something happens jobwise, we have a place to go that is owned outright and will cost almost nothing for upkeep. Of course, with even a bit of warning it won't take too long to get out there. It's going to be a long term project, but it's going to fun and useful. Thanks again for the links, I've got to spend some time checking them out. |
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Quoted:
Thanks guys. Here is the plan. Of the three acres, we plan to put a trailer on one and that will be our immediate "go to" house while the rest of the property gets set up. Eventually, we plan to transition my mother to that house after we build our own on the remaining two acres. We'll have septic, and I'm thinking of trying a grey water system to water the gardens. Water really won't be much of an issue though, as we are pretty sure the land will perk and we will have a well, plus the town has it's own water company that is well derived and then RO purified. (My MIL actually runs it) Hot water will be from a solar water heater, backed up by propane. My MIL has a similar set up and even in the winter the water gets into the 80's on just the sun, so hot water will use a minimum of power. Cooking appliances will be propane as well, and I'd try to get a gas dryer for clothes as well. Of course with the climate a clothesline will be more than adequate most of the time. I'd like to have all the 'comforts' of home, television, computer, etc... CFL lighting is a given, and we're going to insulate the hell out of the place. I also plan on planting shade trees and putting large awnings over the windows to cut down on solar heat. We could get power run, but with the distance from the current line it would be very costly. As time goes on, if more neighbors build and bring the line in closer then the cost goes down. Regardless, I'd like to have the 'off grid' capability merely as a survival issue. It'll probably be a combination of both a genny and solar. I'll solar and a battery bank that should hopefully keep stuff like the fridge going when the generator is off, and when we're home using the appliances we'll run the generator (and recharge the batts) The long term plan is build our house on the two acres. It'll be a straw bale house most likely, super thick walls make it very well insulated, from what I've heard it works better than almost any commercial insulation. It won't be a Bug Out Location in the sense that if something happens we can head there to wait it out, but more in the sense that if something happens jobwise, we have a place to go that is owned outright and will cost almost nothing for upkeep. Of course, with even a bit of warning it won't take too long to get out there. It's going to be a long term project, but it's going to fun and useful. Thanks again for the links, I've got to spend some time checking them out. You are going to have some issues trying to go off the grid. At that cost of running power lines, you still would have a hard time getting to cheaper to use solar. What's the cost per KWH there? Since you want AC, you are going to have to spend some serious cash. You will also have to have a HUGE battery bank to run all that. If you can design the house to not need AC, then your system won't be THAT huge. First of all, as you are planning, you need to have propane appliances. Gas water heater (solar is good too but have a gas backup), gas stove/oven, gas dryer (if you just have to have a dryer). If you don't get a propane refrigerator (and I really don't recommend them...they use a lot of propane), then you need to get the most efficient one you can find. No automatic ice maker, freezer over refrigerator....I would also look into the idea of a non-frost free unit. Don't know if anyone makes them but the frost free feature comes at a energy dense price tag. Look into electricity free heat source....meaning no power needed to move the heated air/liquid. There are a lot of options. I'd plan on a solar/wind/fuel power system...kind of a hybrid. Don't know if you have much wind but you should have plenty of solar. The wind should help you charge batts at night...and sometimes in the day time as well. Do you have a well? If so, you need to know how deep it is and what kind of power you need to draw from it. Get the largest holding tank you can. That's some of my ideas. I really like alternative power but it's not always cheaper...even with the grid $30,000 away, it still takes a lot of money to put your own power production system in!! What part of AZ? Does it get below freezing very much? |
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It's about an hour out of Yuma, right on the I-8. I don't think it ever gets below freezing, even right now it's only what I would consider "cool" at night, not cold. Dates grow just fine there, (hence the name) and they like a pretty warm and frost free climate.
I will be able to cheat a little bit at first. Since it's not going to be a primary residence right away, A/C isn't an immediate issue. It'll get used more during the cooler months when when we don't need A/C. I'm definitely thinking a hybrid system is what we'll need. Perhaps a wind powered well pump, but since the well isn't dug yet, I don't know what that'll draw. At some point the A/C will become a must, as for a few weeks temps well over 100 are not uncommon. However, if we are there at those times we can run a generator and just suck up the fuel costs. I'm thinking a propane generator makes the most sense, as with propane appliances I'll need a large LP tank anyway. It'll probably be easier plumbing that than running all over with gas cans trying to keep the genny running. |
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It's about an hour out of Yuma, right on the I-8. I don't think it ever gets below freezing, even right now it's only what I would consider "cool" at night, not cold. Dates grow just fine there, (hence the name) and they like a pretty warm and frost free climate. I will be able to cheat a little bit at first. Since it's not going to be a primary residence right away, A/C isn't an immediate issue. It'll get used more during the cooler months when when we don't need A/C. I'm definitely thinking a hybrid system is what we'll need. Perhaps a wind powered well pump, but since the well isn't dug yet, I don't know what that'll draw. At some point the A/C will become a must, as for a few weeks temps well over 100 are not uncommon. However, if we are there at those times we can run a generator and just suck up the fuel costs. I'm thinking a propane generator makes the most sense, as with propane appliances I'll need a large LP tank anyway. It'll probably be easier plumbing that than running all over with gas cans trying to keep the genny running. Ok then. I think you need to look at a swamp cooler instead of an AC unit. I used to live in the desert in southern CA and a lot of the houses used swamp coolers. Seemed to keep the house nice and cool IIRC. Uses a LOT less power than an AC unit. Would be easy to run off a small generator. You will go through a LOT of propane if you try to run the generator with it. IMO propane generators work great as backup units but not so good for full time units. Since you plan to use it nearly full time, I would look at a low speed diesel. The fuel will keep well there in the dry air, you can put in a 500-1000 gallon diesel tank and have it filled with off road diesel, and the fuel comsumption will be much better than with the propane one. Fuel suppliers will come to you and keep it filled .....just like your propane. Any idea how deep your well will have to be? |
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Good idea on the diesel. I hadn't even thought of that for some reason, just plain gas and the problems with storing large quantities.
Not sure on the well, but it shouldn't have to be too deep. The area was originally settled because of easy access to water on the train routes for the steam engines. |
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Quoted:
P=I x R Nameplates with the amperage or wattage are on most everything that you will be using. Add it all up and you have the wattage. For running a 4-5 ton central unit, you will need a minimum of 12KW. Look at the Lister set ups if money is tight. Got cash, get a 12-30 KW diesel genny with 500 gallon above ground tank. If you use 220V window units and only cool A FEW rooms you COULD get by with less than 12KW. pwer =I squared x r , or watts=E x I either way the first thing you have to remember is you wont be running everything at the same time , I checked my 1300 sq ft home and average about 50 to 70 amps and that includes an electric water heater . 7000 to 8000 watts should serve you just fine . I would suggest checking into wind power residential units run about 10 grand also fuel cell technology has become more affordable and alot of remote homes are being powered by it . the by product is hot water so it can also be used for radiant heat. ditto on the window unit mount it high since cold air is heavy and falls so a window unit is more effecient for a cople of rooms. |