[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Black Powder weapons? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 12/2/2008 9:57:02 AM EDT
| Anyone use them. Yes against the armed hord they are not effective but what about taking game? I just picked up a .45 cal muzzle load rifle. |
Yes I have several long guns and a couple of pistols. I shoot them on a regular basis. I don't think they will be on a band list. They will always bring home the dinner if needed. The rifles are .50 and .36. The pistols are both .44. I am going to get a black power shotgun as well. IMO you should have at least a couple in your collection with plenty of cap, ball, power, and flint. Ya just never know what will happen in the future since none of us have a crystal ball.
RLTW |
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I would challange you to hunt with one before you decide to count on one for survival. Now, my experience is limited as when I tried I had a T/C Hawkins Flintlock and I tried to hunt deer with it on a modestly wet day and I had three chances to shoot deer and all three times the gun never went off. I went back to the truck and got my bow out of frustration and went back to my stand and shot a deer an hour later.
For me, I would rather spend the money on an extra case of 223/5.45x39/7.62x39/7.62Nato ammo then try to depend on black powder for survival. Blackpowder can do the job, but it is best left for someone who likes a challange and not for someone who is despirate to put food on the table with the least amount of lost energy or chances of failure. JMHO |
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I would challange you to hunt with one before you decide to count on one for survival. Now, my experience is limited as when I tried I had a T/C Hawkins Flintlock and I tried to hunt deer with it on a modestly wet day and I had three chances to shoot deer and all three times the gun never went off. I went back to the truck and got my bow out of frustration and went back to my stand and shot a deer an hour later. For me, I would rather spend the money on an extra case of 223/5.45x39/7.62x39/7.62Nato ammo then try to depend on black powder for survival. Blackpowder can do the job, but it is best left for someone who likes a challange and not for someone who is despirate to put food on the table with the least amount of lost energy or chances of failure. JMHO Thanks for the chuckle. 
Actually there is a reason the gun replaced the bow. 
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I shoot 25-30#s of black powder a year- mostly single shot cartridge rifles (Sharps/Rem RB) and I can attest to their accuracy. I shoot against guys that use muzzle loaders out to 1000 yards & they hit as many 10's or X's as the cartridge guys.
I have sucessfully shot several mule deer with my .50 TC Hawken (Maxi-ball) & they typically drop within a few feet. We usually hot wax around the cap on the nipple & have not had a misfire hunting. It looks possible that ANYTHING .50 or larger could be banned, so I have a .45 convertible flint/percussion long rifle that I built that might make it for awhile. If we are down to just BP and pistols are still allowed, then something like a '58 Remington with a spare cylinder might give you a few repeat defensive shots. It might be prudent to lay in a bunch of caps- could be more valuable for barter than .22's. Let's HOPE that it does not get that bad- I love my M1A or bolt rifles (Have a very accurate AR, but it would not be the 1st rifle that I would grab). In lieu of HOPE, I might suggest being prepared for almost all contingencies might be a good plan.. |
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I would challange you to hunt with one before you decide to count on one for survival. Now, my experience is limited as when I tried I had a T/C Hawkins Flintlock and I tried to hunt deer with it on a modestly wet day and I had three chances to shoot deer and all three times the gun never went off. I went back to the truck and got my bow out of frustration and went back to my stand and shot a deer an hour later. For me, I would rather spend the money on an extra case of 223/5.45x39/7.62x39/7.62Nato ammo then try to depend on black powder for survival. Blackpowder can do the job, but it is best left for someone who likes a challange and not for someone who is despirate to put food on the table with the least amount of lost energy or chances of failure. JMHO +1, very well put. |
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Thanks for the chuckle.
Actually there is a reason the gun replaced the bow. I should have added I sold the gun a couple months later and the whole experience really taught me that the Native Amreicans did have a superior weapon to the colonialists. They just didn't have the skill to organize and use their strengths to send the Europeans back where they came from 
I have lead and I cast my own bullets and I reload but I load in front of smokless powder and a 45 Colt or 454 Casull will do any talking for me that I might do with a 45 or 50-cal muzzle loader. |
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How about this conversion?
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=422701 Never tried one myself....the cylinder is pricey. Have a BP firearm is definetly something to consider if all ones other bases are covered. |
| mel tappan described black powder weapons as "great messy fun". Having said that, any centerfire can be loaded with black powder and go bang –– with the bigger bores being the most effective. Thus if I had to use black powder, I would choose a marlin 45/70 stainless. |
| Lyman Great Plains 54 cal. I shoot with a blackpowder club once a month, 20 to 30 rounds at steel plates at unknow distance. Sun, Rain or snow. I tell everyone who asks me that this is one of the best things I have ever done for traing myself for shooting off hand. That being said it's very low on my list of go to's, the only things that are lower is bow, fallowed by stick (with point). |
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I would challange you to hunt with one before you decide to count on one for survival. Now, my experience is limited as when I tried I had a T/C Hawkins Flintlock and I tried to hunt deer with it on a modestly wet day and I had three chances to shoot deer and all three times the gun never went off. I went back to the truck and got my bow out of frustration and went back to my stand and shot a deer an hour later. For me, I would rather spend the money on an extra case of 223/5.45x39/7.62x39/7.62Nato ammo then try to depend on black powder for survival. Blackpowder can do the job, but it is best left for someone who likes a challange and not for someone who is despirate to put food on the table with the least amount of lost energy or chances of failure. JMHO I have not hunted with a centerfire rifle for about 15 years....my Fusil de Chasse has always made meat....rain, snow etc...the occasional fall of the hammer has almost ALWAYS been my fault, not keeping the flint sharp ETC..... |
| I hunt deer, pretty much annually, with shotgun and blackpowder. While neither are long range implements, they are both more than adequate for going after white tails in the woods. And while it may not be EBR or even a single shot 12 gauge, but the fact remains that blackpowder guns have a lot of load versatility and a .50 soft lead projectile is going to leave a nasty wound in flesh. Also, many of the traditional carbines (ie Traditions Deer Hunter, etc...) are still pretty inexpensive, especially used (until a couple years ago, a CVA Bobcat was less than $60 nib AT Walmart) and can be taken down easily. Additionally, many of the traditional ones have a very sheeple friendly appearance, and have a very minimal likliehood of being subject to future legislation. |
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Blackpowder can do the job, but it is best left for someone who likes a challange and not for someone who is despirate to put food on the table with the least amount of lost energy or chances of failure
the challenge is only for those that haven't yet figure out basic hunting,tracking and stalking skills. there's a lot to know besides slinging a rifle on your shoulder and dropping a deer. IMHO Ive hunted deer from bow to modern firearms. If your do you part ( wind,scent,movement) you'll get game. If you dont. no matter what you shoot you'll go home empty handed. ML's are easy 100-200 yard weapons. If you cant harvest a deer that close( or closer) then you have some serious skill issues you need to work on
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Look at a Savage Muzzleloader........it can use SMOKELESS POWDER and still be ordered through the mail....so far. I have one. Been shooting it for about five years now. Vicious is an understatement for this guns ability. It's more like reloading than muzzle loading. Once you find a powder and bullet combo that it likes then it truly becomes a 250 yd killer. Downside is your not going to be able to shoot projectiles like patched round balls out of it due to the fast twist of the rifling. It's dependent on a 209 shotgun primer as an ignition source and requires a plastic sabot to hold the .44- .45 pistol bullet. |
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Blackpowder can do the job, but it is best left for someone who likes a challange and not for someone who is despirate to put food on the table with the least amount of lost energy or chances of failure
the challenge is only for those that haven't yet figure out basic hunting,tracking and stalking skills. there's a lot to know besides slinging a rifle on your shoulder and dropping a deer. IMHO Ive hunted deer from bow to modern firearms. If your do you part ( wind,scent,movement) you'll get game. If you dont. no matter what you shoot you'll go home empty handed. ML's are easy 100-200 yard weapons. If you cant harvest a deer that close( or closer) then you have some serious skill issues you need to work on +100 They do require extra attention in cleaning and preventative maintenance. If folks took the time to properly clean, load, and weatherproof then they wouldn't have the misfires that they are reporting. A reproduction long rifle, Hawken, or Inline is not an AK. They really do require cleaning. Some of your newer propellants like 777 burn cleaner, faster, more consistently and can be cleaned up with soap and water while other more traditional propellants like BP and Pyrodex have more corrosive tendencies. Shoot your gun a few times not clean it, stick it away for a short time and you might be surprised at the fur coat your gun has grown. Are they suitable for SHTF purposes? Really depends on your definition of SHTF. Stopping mutant zombie bikers? No, probably not too many but the smoke cloud generated from each shot will cover your movements as you fall back. 
For taking game they'll get the job done if you've done your part. I started shooting the older caplock reproductions years ago and got away from it moving up to an inline. This year in preparation for a special primitive weapons only hunt I picked up two used repro guns, a .50 cal Hawken and a .45 cal long rifle for 175.00 total. Around here percussion caps and powder can be found but round balls, patches, and conical bullets are nonexistent. For "stocking up for hard times" as friend calls it I'd look into getting a ball or bullet mold, sabots or shooting patches, primers or percussion caps and a couple of pounds of powder along with either bulk pistol bullets for an inline or a pistol bullet mold. Using that above list we can see what we'll need for long term usage. Traditional Cap lock rifle; Spare parts- mainspring and nipple pillow ticking or pre cut patches bullet or ball mold a suitable quantity of lead patch and bullet lube percussion caps lead to cast a lead pot and ladle patch and bullet lube powder- either pyrodex, 777, or real blackpowder and percussion caps. Here's where the flint lock shooters have the advantage as they can knapp new or resharpen old gun flints. Misc accessories such as a patch knife, ball or bullet starter and cleaning supplies Inlines; Powder, same as above. 209 primers or caps depending on the ignition system replacement nipple or breech plug take down and cleaning tools Sabots and bullets or conicals. Most inlines won't shoot round balls and some won't shoot conicals well due to the fast twist of their rifling. Sabots are the small plastic cups that hold the pistol sized bullet in the rifle. They aren't reusable so a good supply would be a good idea. While for hunting purposes a jacketed pistol bullet is preferred a cast lead bullet can also be used. Purchasing a 44 or 45 bullet mold might be a wise idea as would picking up scrap lead to cast and a furnace or pot and ladle to melt the lead in. Here's a pic of a doe I killed earlier this year. That's an $80.00 CVA .45 long rifle that I bought off GB. I scrounged around in my shooting box and found half a can of pyrodex purchased who knows when and a small tin of number 11 percussion caps. No one around here carried any .45 ML supplies so I shopped around and found a used LEE mold that cast both round balls and 200gr conical bullets. For a quick source of lead I cut off a few weights from my goose decoys and melted them down in a small cast iron pot on a coleman stove. A 65gr charge of RS Pyrodex punched a hole through both sides of the deer sounding about as loud as a .22 magnum going off. So yes, you can harvest game with one. 
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But the context of this thread is survival, not hunting. Those of you that may think your smokepole is going to put meat on the table had better plan on far fewer wild game that may not be as willing to get as close as guys like me pick them off with a 308 at extended ranges. You may also be very hungy, cold , and sick unlike your hunting trips you are refering to.
My point was that I see this is a weapon for those that already have a healthy stack of ammo and primary weapons. If I am trying to survive I would take a supressed 22lr over a muzzle loader as well because survival hunting is shooting anything you can eat and odds are good small game will be easier to hunt then big game. |
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But the context of this thread is survival, not hunting. Those of you that may think your smokepole is going to put meat on the table had better plan on far fewer wild game that may not be as willing to get as close as guys like me pick them off with a 308 at extended ranges. You may also be very hungy, cold , and sick unlike your hunting trips you are refering to. My point was that I see this is a weapon for those that already have a healthy stack of ammo and primary weapons. If I am trying to survive I would take a supressed 22lr over a muzzle loader as well because survival hunting is shooting anything you can eat and odds are good small game will be easier to hunt then big game. +1 Black powder arms are fun toys, not serious survival guns. |
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Let me just throw out that there is a big difference between a flint lock and a cap lock or inline. The two main issues with flint locks are reliable ignition and lock time. Shooting a modern inline muzzle loader is no different than shooting a center fire rifle, for the most part. Shooting a flint lock, however, is far different. It takes real skill to hold the rifle on target for a full half second between pulling the trigger and waiting for the gun to fire.
I personally own and hunt with a TC firestorm flint lock, and its definitely not easy. Edited to add: If you are buying a black powder rifle for TSHTF, when ammunition resources are scarce, and you have to make your own black powder and cast your own bullets, then owning a caplock or inline would be pointless, because you cant really produce your own primers. If you are going to own a caplock, you may as well just buy more center fire ammo. In other words, the only true SHTF black powder firearm is a flint lock. |
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I have shot and hunted with lots of muzzle loaders over the years and in my experance thay are very dependable if loaded correctly. While I have a very nice new custom made 20 ga, smoothbore flintlock that I have used some most of what I have shot were older antiques. Most were flintlocks but have shot cap lock muskets and revolvers too.
I think most people have problems, esp. with flintlocks because they use a cheap gun [TC Flintlock ] don't understand how it works and then form thier opinon from that. Sort of like me deciding that revolvers are no good because that cheap RG .22 I shot that time was a piece of shit. I used to hunt a good bit with a 200 year old English double flint shotgun and I can't remember it ever NOT going off...somthing I can't say for my Remington 1100. But I had a high quality [if old] gun paid attention to my flints and how I loaded and primed it....and yes I shot ducks in the rain with it. I have an original Colt 1861 contract musket which i have shot several deer with, loaded with Minnie balls it is dead accurate and of course 100 % reliable. Will tell you straight if I shot at you from 100 - 150 yards away you would be just as dead as if I shot at you with my .308 semi. auto rifle. A better shot could streatch that 100 - 150 yards way out too I think If I had too choose today between using this musket or a .223 AR to go deer hunting to me it would be a no brainer ...I would take the musket. Matter of fact I normaly choose to use a muzzle loader rifle over a 12 ga. shotgun to go deer hunting here in the state I live in which didn't allow centerfire rifles I look at it this way...would I replace one of my modern assault rifles with a muzzleloader...no of course not. Just like I wouldn't replace them with a Ruger 10/22. But I think muzzle loaders have a place not to replace but to compliment your other guns. Pretty easy to put away lots of powder and caps and I doubt even the tin foil hat guys think that muzzleloaders will be outlawed...cripes I have a friend in England that shoots a Hawken .54 with no hassel....If you go to using a flintlock and figure out how to make powder you would be more or less self contained ......Todd |
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Let me just throw out that there is a big difference between a flint lock and a cap lock or inline. The two main issues with flint locks are reliable ignition and lock time. Shooting a modern inline muzzle loader is no different than shooting a center fire rifle, for the most part. Shooting a flint lock, however, is far different. It takes real skill to hold the rifle on target for a full half second between pulling the trigger and waiting for the gun to fire. I personally own and hunt with a TC firestorm flint lock, and its definitely not easy. Edited to add: If you are buying a black powder rifle for TSHTF, when ammunition resources are scarce, and you have to make your own black powder and cast your own bullets, then owning a caplock or inline would be pointless, because you cant really produce your own primers. If you are going to own a caplock, you may as well just buy more center fire ammo. In other words, the only true SHTF black powder firearm is a flint lock. Um...not really....Flintlocks are wholly more reliable in foul weather than caplock guns..I spend probably 15 hours tuning each lock on every gun I build, a PROPERLY tuned Flintlock is a marvel of geometry, and will ignite as fast and in some cases faster than a caplock, as another poster mentioned most peoples experience with flinlocks is some POS from Cabelas or whatever...a finely built firelock costs as much in raw parts as our beloved AR's....I know i build one or two each year on commission....primarily French guns but the occasional English......that being said I would keep one around as a back up hunting tool...can they be used in modern times for serious social purpose...not so much..thats when my AK or AR gets called up...I am sure most of us feel the same...just my .02 |
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Originally Posted By
I should have added I sold the gun a couple months later and the whole experience really taught me that the Native Amreicans did have a superior weapon to the colonialists. Well tradtionaly the Native Americans didn't agree with you that is for sure! Just like iron axes replaced stone axes the indians wanted guns and they did everything they could to get muzzle loaders to replace thier bows. In the east guns had replaced the natives bows to such an extent that by the mid 1700s most had forgotton how to even make a bow. Out west bows lasted longer mostly because of thier specialised use of shooting off horseback at close range they performed better ...but they still wanted guns which was better for general use. Im sure that the natives didn't give up the bow lightly either, think about it they were giving up a weapon they could make and upkeep on thier own for one that they had to depend on others for them to keep shooting...yet in about everycase they did just this because they considered the muzzle loader to be the better of the two One point...if you think your flintlock performed bad in the rain...take out a primitive sinew back and strung bow and report back......Todd |
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Um...not really....Flintlocks are wholly more reliable in foul weather than caplock guns..I spend probably 15 hours tuning each lock on every gun I build, a PROPERLY tuned Flintlock is a marvel of geometry, and will ignite as fast and in some cases faster than a caplock, as another poster mentioned most peoples experience with flinlocks is some POS from Cabelas or whatever...a finely built firelock costs as much in raw parts as our beloved AR's....I know i build one or two each year on commission....primarily French guns but the occasional English......that being said I would keep one around as a back up hunting tool...can they be used in modern times for serious social purpose...not so much..thats when my AK or AR gets called up...I am sure most of us feel the same...just my .02 I respect what you are saying here, but there is no way a flint lock, no matter how well tuned, will ever have as fast a locktime as a modern inline capgun. And many modern inlines also have fully enclosed water proof actions now, making them just as reliable as a center fire rifle. |
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i'm with QB on this. over the last few years i've come to the conclusion that i have no use or need to ever own or use a BP/ML rifle. the main reason people still hunt with them is the "season". here in VA you can get in the woods sooner if you hunt with one. if hunting season didn't regulate what gun you can use there would be far less BP/ML's in the woods. if you want to hunt with one, that's cool but ask yourself this, if you could take a center fire hunting rifle or your smoke stick on the first day of deer season which one would you pick? i can appreciate the historical aspect of the flint lock stuff but to say that you would "stock up" on black powder stuff for a SHTF event is a waste of time, space and money. pick up an extra case of ammo. in SHTF.... bow and arrow for stealthy hunting. modern rifle and pistol for everything else. |
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Um...not really....Flintlocks are wholly more reliable in foul weather than caplock guns..I spend probably 15 hours tuning each lock on every gun I build, a PROPERLY tuned Flintlock is a marvel of geometry, and will ignite as fast and in some cases faster than a caplock, as another poster mentioned most peoples experience with flinlocks is some POS from Cabelas or whatever...a finely built firelock costs as much in raw parts as our beloved AR's....I know i build one or two each year on commission....primarily French guns but the occasional English......that being said I would keep one around as a back up hunting tool...can they be used in modern times for serious social purpose...not so much..thats when my AK or AR gets called up...I am sure most of us feel the same...just my .02 I respect what you are saying here, but there is no way a flint lock, no matter how well tuned, will ever have as fast a locktime as a modern inline capgun. In miliseconds you would be correct..in real world field use almost imperceptable, It still amazes me when i hand one to someone who usually has NO experience with a flintlock and after the first shot are stunned at how fast it fires, now granted these are usually decent shooters with good fire control discipline with modern arms...when you squeeze it off..instant bang, ....and if you noticed my original point it was in comparison to CAPLOCKS (sidehammer)..inline muzzleloaders are in no way in my and many others opinions remotely close to historic arms in any capacity they are truly centerfire caseless guns..... |
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Quoted:In miliseconds you would be correct..in real world field use almost imperceptable, It still amazes me when i hand one to someone who usually has NO experience with a flintlock and after the first shot are stunned at how fast it fires, now granted these are usually decent shooters with good fire control discipline with modern arms...when you squeeze it off..instant bang, ....and if you noticed my original point it was in comparison to CAPLOCKS (sidehammer)..inline muzzleloaders are in no way in my and many others opinions remotely close to historic arms in any capacity they are truly centerfire caseless guns.....
Yeah, I hear you. I actually opened up the touchhole a bit on my firestorm to improve the locktime, cause it was pretty bad when I first got it. What other tweaks do you recommend I could do? Also, what technique do you use for keeping the powder in the pan dry when hunting in the rain? I have a small piece of leather that I use to cover it when its wet out, and then just quickly remove before firing. |
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Quoted:In miliseconds you would be correct..in real world field use almost imperceptable, It still amazes me when i hand one to someone who usually has NO experience with a flintlock and after the first shot are stunned at how fast it fires, now granted these are usually decent shooters with good fire control discipline with modern arms...when you squeeze it off..instant bang, ....and if you noticed my original point it was in comparison to CAPLOCKS (sidehammer)..inline muzzleloaders are in no way in my and many others opinions remotely close to historic arms in any capacity they are truly centerfire caseless guns.....
Yeah, I hear you. I actually opened up the touchhole a bit on my firestorm to improve the locktime, cause it was pretty bad when I first got it. What other tweaks do you recommend I could do? Also, what technique do you use for keeping the powder in the pan dry when hunting in the rain? I have a small piece of leather that I use to cover it when its wet out, and then just quickly remove before firing. depending on how big the original touch hole was that can sometimes have a reverse effect, Typically I use one of Jim Chambers liners when installing the touch hole it is made correctly in the original reverse flare of period guns,although originals for the most part did not use liners, some did and were made of gold alloy, the key to consistent ignition starts with where the pan bottom lines up to the hole, and this topic starts an argument among builders as much as which school and style you build in..anyway if the center of the touch hole is SLIGHTLY above dead center of the pan bottom that to me is about perfect, I myself do not use priming powder 4F some do and like it but it is not historically correct so for me its a no-no, I load and prime with 3F with one exception for one musket, and some will say fill the pan full others will say less id more, I am one of the less is more crowd, when I prime the pan is about 1/3 capacity, I close the hammerstall (frizzen) and slghtly angle the lock away from me and tap the the side of the gun , this pulls any powder away from the touch hole so as to not block it, HEAT is what sets off the main charge, not fire from the flash, tuning a lock is sometimes tricky depending on the architecture of the parts, all I can tell you is removing any rough spots on the tumbler , sear, and hammer is the basic , if you have set triggers do not over lube the mechanism or the Fly will stick, as far as keeping the lock dry using the "Cows Knee" is effective but a PITA, depending on how close the lockplate fit to the lock mortise is you can take small amounts of beeswax and smear it along the outline of the pan and where the closed Frizzen meets the barrel at the lockplate mortise, this is what i do as well as keeping the lock somewhat protected by my arm in bad weather, the other thing to do is CHANGE your prime several times throughout the days hunt and at the end of the day if you have not fired you CAN leave the charge in if you want or plug the touch hole with a feather, which is what we do in camp as sort of a historic chamber flag that way any one looking at the lock and seeing a feather knows the gun is loaded but not primed, ....hope that helps and answers your basic questions, and my apologies to the OP didnt mean to hijack......YMHS |
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I've killed more deer with a bow than anything else. It's just not something you're going to do while stomping around the woods or sitting on a big rock the way many people gun hunt. Being a bow hunter makes you a MUCH better gun hunter, just as being a trapper makes you a better all around woodsman. I've kileld teh great majority of my deer with BP. REAL BP. Something about the smoke and teh smell has infected me! (I even hunt modern gun seasons with BP!) Plus, buy a Tap-O-Cap, some AMERICAN made toy gun caps, and an empty beer can, and you can crank out your own #11 caps. And you can make your own BP. And BP has other uses besides firearms. |
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You know just a suggestion, some of you guys may want to read "The History of the Gun." or similar works.
You really can't lump hundreds of years of gun development into one or two technological changes as far as effectiveness. There's a world of difference between a smooth bore musket and a rifle. The rifling improved accuracy 300%. To be frank, my surprise at taking up black powder wasn't how cumbersome they are to load, care, or cleaning but how accurate they are and how useful. Is it my first choice of gun? Of course not, no more than my .44mg six shooter is. Its just one more tool in the arsenal. Tj |
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I would challange you to hunt with one before you decide to count on one for survival. Now, my experience is limited as when I tried I had a T/C Hawkins Flintlock and I tried to hunt deer with it on a modestly wet day and I had three chances to shoot deer and all three times the gun never went off. I went back to the truck and got my bow out of frustration and went back to my stand and shot a deer an hour later. For me, I would rather spend the money on an extra case of 223/5.45x39/7.62x39/7.62Nato ammo then try to depend on black powder for survival. Blackpowder can do the job, but it is best left for someone who likes a challange and not for someone who is despirate to put food on the table with the least amount of lost energy or chances of failure. JMHO i suspect you had the old style tc flint lock work. they were junk. most folks i know replaced them with locks from track of the wolf and never had problems. i can make black powder, use quartz rocks and strip parked autos of wheel weights if i had to, but i cant make smokeless powder or primers to feed that 223 /762. at least not as easily. |
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A well tuned flintlock never fails to fire, if the frizzen is properly hardened and your flint is in good shape, a flintlock is very reliable.
If someone was building a flintlock and did not want to make their own lock, then they need to purchase a Siler lock, assembled or a kit...no better lock ...if you are wanting to forego the DIY |
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Quoted: But the context of this thread is survival, not hunting. Those of you that may think your smokepole is going to put meat on the table had better plan on far fewer wild game that may not be as willing to get as close as guys like me pick them off with a 308 at extended ranges. You may also be very hungy, cold , and sick unlike your hunting trips you are refering to. My point was that I see this is a weapon for those that already have a healthy stack of ammo and primary weapons. If I am trying to survive I would take a supressed 22lr over a muzzle loader as well because survival hunting is shooting anything you can eat and odds are good small game will be easier to hunt then big game. The North American continent was tamed by the blackpowder muzzleloader. Survival was a daily event for the earliest settlers, longhunters and mountain men. Not only did they feed themselves with the smokepole, they were plenty capable of defending themselves against bow and arrow-armed natives. As someone else posted, there wasn't a single tribe that sloughed off European firearms technology to retain the bow for hunting or war. Everyone couldn't have been wrong. To th OP, welcome to the blackpowder fraternity! |
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I'm wondering about folks who say they can make black powder. Where do you plan on getting the ingredients in a post-SHTF world? Sulfur doesn't grow on trees, saltpeter caves are few and far between, and have you ever tried to make charcoal? It's hard. All this takes time as well, time probably much better spent on other, more realistic things.
In the unlikely event you've lived long enough to actually run out of stockpiled ammunition, you'll probably have outlived the populations of big game in your area as well, in a TEOTWAWKI situation, every yahoo with a gun is going to gorge themselves on venison until there aren't any more deer to be killed, and you can count on that. I personally think if you're serious about long-term ammunition independence in a post-SHTF world, your most realistic, best option is to buy .22lr cheap, and stack it deep. The money you'd spend on a black powder rifle and implements to shoot and clean it (probably minumum $400) would buy you a few lifetimes worth of .22lr. |
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My type of shooter. I shoot a Shiloh 1874 in 45-90 .
I shoot 25-30#s of black powder a year- mostly single shot cartridge rifles (Sharps/Rem RB) and I can attest to their accuracy. I shoot against guys that use muzzle loaders out to 1000 yards & they hit as many 10's or X's as the cartridge guys. I have sucessfully shot several mule deer with my .50 TC Hawken (Maxi-ball) & they typically drop within a few feet. We usually hot wax around the cap on the nipple & have not had a misfire hunting. It looks possible that ANYTHING .50 or larger could be banned, so I have a .45 convertible flint/percussion long rifle that I built that might make it for awhile. If we are down to just BP and pistols are still allowed, then something like a '58 Remington with a spare cylinder might give you a few repeat defensive shots. It might be prudent to lay in a bunch of caps- could be more valuable for barter than .22's. Let's HOPE that it does not get that bad- I love my M1A or bolt rifles (Have a very accurate AR, but it would not be the 1st rifle that I would grab). In lieu of HOPE, I might suggest being prepared for almost all contingencies might be a good plan.. |
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Anyone who advocates blackpowder with visions of "I can make blackpowder to feed my flintlock, 'cause I learned the recipe in high school" is deluding themselves if they have not already made blackpowder with resources available here-and-now.
If TSHTF there WILL NOT be any mail-order saltpeter from pyrotechnics websites or sulfur from the drug store. Can you provide these from local sources? And more to the point, have you already done so as a proof of concept? Usable blackpowder is a lot harder to make than people are willing to acknowledge. There're good reasons that even in the 1800s most black powder was made by a handful of companies, like Dupont, and shipped long distances. |
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Anyone who advocates blackpowder with visions of "I can make blackpowder to feed my flintlock, 'cause I learned the recipe in high school" is deluding themselves if they have not already made blackpowder with resources available here-and-now. If TSHTF there WILL NOT be any mail-order saltpeter from pyrotechnics websites or sulfur from the drug store. Can you provide these from local sources? And more to the point, have you already done so as a proof of concept? Usable blackpowder is a lot harder to make than people are willing to acknowledge. There're good reasons that even in the 1800s most black powder was made by a handful of companies, like Dupont, and shipped long distances. Well maybe I should just send my Chemical Engineering degree back since you told me it won't work.
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Anyone who advocates blackpowder with visions of "I can make blackpowder to feed my flintlock, 'cause I learned the recipe in high school" is deluding themselves if they have not already made blackpowder with resources available here-and-now. If TSHTF there WILL NOT be any mail-order saltpeter from pyrotechnics websites or sulfur from the drug store. Can you provide these from local sources? And more to the point, have you already done so as a proof of concept? Usable blackpowder is a lot harder to make than people are willing to acknowledge. There're good reasons that even in the 1800s most black powder was made by a handful of companies, like Dupont, and shipped long distances. Well maybe I should just send my Chemical Engineering degree back since you told me it won't work. Nice non-answer... Do you have a local source for sulfur? A local source for sodium nitrate? All the knowledge in the world doesn't mean shit if the raw materials aren't available. "Don't worry, I can make blackpowder from scratch" is a persistent survivalist myth, right up there with "the check's in the mail" and some I won't mention. The historical record is full of "professional" blackpowder makers who ended up as a fine pink mist. The DuPont and Nobel family histories are worth reading up on for anyone who fantasizes they're going to casually whip up some BP in their kitchen. |
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Let me just throw out that there is a big difference between a flint lock and a cap lock or inline. The two main issues with flint locks are reliable ignition and lock time. Shooting a modern inline muzzle loader is no different than shooting a center fire rifle, for the most part. Shooting a flint lock, however, is far different. It takes real skill to hold the rifle on target for a full half second between pulling the trigger and waiting for the gun to fire. I personally own and hunt with a TC firestorm flint lock, and its definitely not easy. Edited to add: If you are buying a black powder rifle for TSHTF, when ammunition resources are scarce, and you have to make your own black powder and cast your own bullets, then owning a caplock or inline would be pointless, because you cant really produce your own primers. If you are going to own a caplock, you may as well just buy more center fire ammo. In other words, the only true SHTF black powder firearm is a flint lock. I big +! on this. The goal is not to use survival to have a reason to buy guns, but rather to buy and practice with guns to help survive. 10K of large rifle primers cost much less than a black powder rifle. And smokeless powder cost no more than black powder. Thus any big bore cast bullet repeater (Stainless Marlin in 45/70 comes to mind) seems to me to have no worse a logistics train than a single shot black powder rifle and to be far more useful. I don't think anyone should consider trying to make their own black powder but even if you do, you can always load that marlin (or a 30-06 for than matter) with black powder and have a far more effective repeater in 45/70. Black powder rifles are great messy fun and if you have extra money, buy a flintlock if you wish. But I think practically, one is far better off buying a centerfire repeater, molds, smokeless powder and lots and lots of primers. |
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The key word is "usable" . Usable black powder for firearm use is alot harder to make than just mixing your drugstore purchased saltpeter, sulfur, charcoal . As kids we did that all the time to use on fire ant mounds. It was a far cry from today's Goex .
Anyone who advocates black powder with visions of "I can make black powder to feed my flintlock, 'cause I learned the recipe in high school" is deluding themselves if they have not already made black powder with resources available here-and-now. If TSHTF there WILL NOT be any mail-order saltpeter from pyrotechnics websites or sulfur from the drug store. Can you provide these from local sources? And more to the point, have you already done so as a proof of concept? Usable black powder is a lot harder to make than people are willing to acknowledge. AGC is correct on all of his above posts. |
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The key word is "usable" . Usable black powder for firearm use is alot harder to make than just mixing your drugstore purchased saltpeter, sulfur, charcoal . As kids we did that all the time to use on fire ant mounds. It was a far cry from today's Goex .
Anyone who advocates black powder with visions of "I can make black powder to feed my flintlock, 'cause I learned the recipe in high school" is deluding themselves if they have not already made black powder with resources available here-and-now. If TSHTF there WILL NOT be any mail-order saltpeter from pyrotechnics websites or sulfur from the drug store. Can you provide these from local sources? And more to the point, have you already done so as a proof of concept? Usable black powder is a lot harder to make than people are willing to acknowledge. AGC is correct on all of his above posts. and given the lack of drugstores with TEOTWAWKI, I am not really sure how much horse droppings I would need to go through to get enough saltpeter to make a pound of black powder. :) |
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Anyone who advocates blackpowder with visions of "I can make blackpowder to feed my flintlock, 'cause I learned the recipe in high school" is deluding themselves if they have not already made blackpowder with resources available here-and-now. If TSHTF there WILL NOT be any mail-order saltpeter from pyrotechnics websites or sulfur from the drug store. Can you provide these from local sources? And more to the point, have you already done so as a proof of concept? Usable blackpowder is a lot harder to make than people are willing to acknowledge. There're good reasons that even in the 1800s most black powder was made by a handful of companies, like Dupont, and shipped long distances. Well maybe I should just send my Chemical Engineering degree back since you told me it won't work. Nice non-answer... Do you have a local source for sulfur? A local source for sodium nitrate? All the knowledge in the world doesn't mean shit if the raw materials aren't available. "Don't worry, I can make blackpowder from scratch" is a persistent survivalist myth, right up there with "the check's in the mail" and some I won't mention. The historical record is full of "professional" blackpowder makers who ended up as a fine pink mist. The DuPont and Nobel family histories are worth reading up on for anyone who fantasizes they're going to casually whip up some BP in their kitchen. Actually yes. You may want to notice the state I'm in. Appalachia not only has been known for having the natural resources for powder but making iron. Doesn't matter much though. The biggest myth survivalist have isn't what they can make or can not but that some event is going to happen that takes us all back to the stone age. That some event is going to suddenly make every thing man has gathered, manufactured, and knowledge will disappear. BTW, Just so you know the biggest problem with making usable gunpowder for a gun isn't the collection of material nor the mixing but the fabrication of granular size to control burn rate and pressures. There are many ways to get the materials or even substitute material if you understand the reactions involved. Even the common materials mentioned in this thread are readily available in most areas. Its the granulation process which manually done is long and pains taking involving a fourth chemical with low yields that made the process more suited for factory than home during 19th century. That Fg, FFg, FFFg, FFFFg designation is kind of an important thing. When I did this project in college, it was quite lengthy, however I didn't have a chronograph in those days which would greatly decrease the research time. Now, if you really want to be freaked, we also made nitro in college in very small amounts which we would flip a drop of the edge of a tooth pick. 
Its a big mistake to assume just because you can't do something others can't nor others can not learn. The number one survival tool isn't what gear one can buy but knowledge. Tj |
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I would challange you to hunt with one before you decide to count on one for survival. Now, my experience is limited as when I tried I had a T/C Hawkins Flintlock and I tried to hunt deer with it on a modestly wet day and I had three chances to shoot deer and all three times the gun never went off. I went back to the truck and got my bow out of frustration and went back to my stand and shot a deer an hour later. For me, I would rather spend the money on an extra case of 223/5.45x39/7.62x39/7.62Nato ammo then try to depend on black powder for survival. Blackpowder can do the job, but it is best left for someone who likes a challange and not for someone who is despirate to put food on the table with the least amount of lost energy or chances of failure. JMHO I hunt in PA and I hate the flintlock only rule. An in line with a 209 primer would have most likely fired. |