Posted: 11/11/2008 10:23:39 AM EDT
|
I am relatively new to the survival forum but have been on arfcom for a while. I am taking an interest in preparing myself and family for anything from a bad blizzard to complete social breakdown. Not that I anticipate these events happening but it is foolish not to be prepared.
I have found lots of good info on the forums here but one undercurrent that I don't understand is the recurring belief that the Police won't be on your side if things really go bad. Why is that? |
|
I think the idea revolves around two or three (possibly related) ideas:
First, the police may be under equipted themselves, and see your equipment and preps as "better used" for someone else. Second, they may be under orders to remove you (and everybody else) from your neightborhood. If you are sufficently prepped, you won't like that. Third, you may be activly defending your home/neighborhood and the police may see you as the problem. So its not that the police don't like you personally, but they have have agendas that conflict with yours come shtf. |
|
Quoted:
Second, they may be under orders to remove you (and everybody else) from your neightborhood. If you are sufficently prepped, you won't like that. Please educate me here...I've been thinking about this for a while. What happened in Katrina might be a good indication (but I don't know what did happen in this circumstance). So, lets say you've decided to bug in...you move all vehicles/signs of life to the back yard/side yard. Board up the windows. No smoke (chimney) - basically no signs of life. Are the police, in this role, going to knock and go away or kick the door in to see if someone is hiding inside? Ransack an empty house looking for supplies? |
|
So, lets say you've decided to bug in...you move all vehicles/signs of life to the back yard/side yard. Board up the windows. No smoke (chimney) - basically no signs of life. Are the police, in this role, going to knock and go away or kick the door in to see if someone is hiding inside? Ransack an empty house looking for supplies?
I've been studing this for some time now, and the answer is more complex than you would expect. There is no difinitive answer, and some of it depends on state law. Here's one link for you: http://128.32.29.133/disasters.php?categoryID=1 When FEMA gets involved, shit gets REALLY confusing because depending on who the area commander is will determine how federal law is interpreted. The prevaling attitude seems to be that FEMA can do whatever FEMA wants to do, all laws be damned. Various state laws seem to actually say that out loud, but nobody seems to notice. Louisiana, in the last legislative session, finally defined Compulsory Evacuation. The text of the bill is fairly straightforward. www.legis.louisiana.gov/billdata/streamdocument.asp?did=498846 The way I read that, if there is a compusory evacuation, the law allows officers to come into your home and kill you and be immune from prosecution. I've been told that my view on that is 'radical', and 'would never happen', but you read the law and tell me if I'm wrong. Shane |
|
The problem is that there is a fundamental disconnect between what is best for
an individual and what is best for the group when it comes to major disasters. So, police and LE/EMA in general will be out there trying to enforce whatever rules or policies that get enacted at that time. Regardless of what that means to you, the individual. I work with my state DHS in a SAR volunteer capacity (I sit in on a couple of advisory boards) and it is not an easy task to balance between the diehard "go it on my own" types and the "government isn't doing enough to save me" types. Read some accounts of the San Francisco fires after the big earthquake in the early 1900s, they were dynamiting houses to try to prevent the spread of the fire. What would *your* response be if they came to do that to your house? And then there is the mass hysteria that places broad categories of people under suspicion (gee, that never happens, does it? Just ask any Japanese family who was in the US in the 40s, or any arab-looking person in the last seven years). I work in EMS, I work with the DHS of my state, and I know a lot of folks in government and LE, and I have no doubt in my mind that if somehow I, and anyone like me, was suddenly declared to be suspicious, that those fine people who are supposed to serve would have little conscience about rounding us up. One only needs to look to this forum to see how many people would gleefully turn on a "bunch of dirty Muslims" if they thought they could get away with it (no, I'm not Moslem or Jewish, or Christian, it's just a point, folks...) The honorable Pastor Niemoller said it best when he said "and when they came for me, there was no one left to speak up." So, in spite of the fact that I work with and get along with the police, I don't for a moment believe that they are automatically on my side. The police are on the side of the government and I know far too few officers who would defy their orders when it comes to respecting the rights of the citizenry. Mike Rutherford (Mike and the Mechanics, after Genesis broke up) wrote it well in "Silent Running". "Teach the children quietly, for some day sons and daughters will fight while we sit still..." "Don't believe the church and state, and everything they tell you..." Hard to believe that was a top ten song in the 80s... |
|
So, in spite of the fact that I work with and get along with the police, I don't
for a moment believe that they are automatically on my side. The police are on the side of the government and I know far too few officers who would defy their orders when it comes to respecting the rights of the citizenry. You are right, to a point. After that point, police officers are on *their own* side. I talk a little about the dynamics of that on this page: http://www.theplacewithnoname.com/blogs/klessons/p/0062.html Shane |
|
Quoted:
So, lets say you've decided to bug in...you move all vehicles/signs of life to the back yard/side yard. Board up the windows. No smoke (chimney) - basically no signs of life. Are the police, in this role, going to knock and go away or kick the door in to see if someone is hiding inside? Ransack an empty house looking for supplies?
I've been studing this for some time now, and the answer is more complex than you would expect. There is no difinitive answer, and some of it depends on state law. Here's one link for you: http://128.32.29.133/disasters.php?categoryID=1 When FEMA gets involved, shit gets REALLY confusing because depending on who the area commander is will determine how federal law is interpreted. The prevaling attitude seems to be that FEMA can do whatever FEMA wants to do, all laws be damned. Various state laws seem to actually say that out loud, but nobody seems to notice. Louisiana, in the last legislative session, finally defined Compulsory Evacuation. The text of the bill is fairly straightforward. www.legis.louisiana.gov/billdata/streamdocument.asp?did=498846 The way I read that, if there is a compusory evacuation, the law allows officers to come into your home and kill you and be immune from prosecution. I've been told that my view on that is 'radical', and 'would never happen', but you read the law and tell me if I'm wrong. Shane Damn man, thats what it reads in a nut sheel! |
|
A lot of LE bugged out during Katrina and did not report for duty.
Imagine if you were one of the ones who did report for duty and you have a bunch of armed civilians standing in the way of doing your job. You can see how a regular LEO can start to fall prey to the JBT/dark side. Just doing their jobs... |
|
Quoted:
A lot of LE bugged out during Katrina and did not report for duty. Imagine if you were one of the ones who did report for duty and you have a bunch of armed civilians standing in the way of doing your job. You can see how a regular LEO can start to fall prey to the JBT/dark side. Just doing their jobs... Haha... A lot bugged out with new stolen cars... Just doing their jobs... |
|
Quoted:
Please educate me here...I've been thinking about this for a while. What happened in Katrina might be a good indication (but I don't know what did happen in this circumstance). Katrina Gun Confiscation Great New Orleans Gun Grab |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
A lot of LE bugged out during Katrina and did not report for duty. Imagine if you were one of the ones who did report for duty and you have a bunch of armed civilians standing in the way of doing your job. You can see how a regular LEO can start to fall prey to the JBT/dark side. Just doing their jobs... Haha... A lot bugged out with new stolen cars... Just doing their jobs... New Orleans' Finest Drive Sewell Cadillacs |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
A lot of LE bugged out during Katrina and did not report for duty. Imagine if you were one of the ones who did report for duty and you have a bunch of armed civilians standing in the way of doing your job. You can see how a regular LEO can start to fall prey to the JBT/dark side. Just doing their jobs... Haha... A lot bugged out with new stolen cars... Just doing their jobs... Really, stole cars? Links for that please. Now the fat tards in uniform looting the WalMart was another thing. But then again, we are talking about New Orleans which is probably the second most corrupt city in the U.S. (2nd only to Chicago) I think many of you would be surprised at the number of local LEOs who would refuse to comply with FEMAs requests to disarm or take from the general populace. |
|
Really, stole cars? Links for that please. Now the fat tards in uniform looting the WalMart was another thing. But then again, we are talking about New Orleans which is probably the second most corrupt city in the U.S. (2nd only to Chicago)
I think many of you would be surprised at the number of local LEOs who would refuse to comply with FEMAs requests to disarm or take from the general populace. Everybody thinks that the people in their town are more righteous than anybody else. It's bullshit. We aren't talking about a bad weekend. We're talking about a total collapse. When SHTF for real, the ideas of law and order simply fail. That's what SHTF means... People do whatever they need to do to survive, and some, many, or most of them will also take advantages wherever they can. This is simple human nature. Shane |
|
The police in Orleans Parish(county), and parish official decieded to disarm citizens as a
policy to insure the safety of the public. In the neighboring parish of jefferson the officials had a different interpretation of the law, I sat in lawn chair, on my property with an AR15 and an hk USP 45c. The National Guard, NYPD, Louisiana State Police, and Jefferson Parish Sheriff all stopped and asked "If I was all right and where I could get MRE's and ice!" Not one of the these officials tried to take any weapons or invade my home. Some asked, if that was my home or what kind of Ar15 i had. |
|
Quoted:
People do whatever they need to do to survive, and some, many, or most of them will also take advantages wherever they can. This is simple human nature. There's quite a difference between "some" and "most." 
I personally think that there will be few truly corrupt LEOs who actually show up to work if the SHTF. Those will be the ones who don't show up when they're scheduled to work. The vast, vast majority of LEOs who are working during a SHTF event will be men and women who believe in what they do and are doing it for the right reasons. That doesn't mean that they're there to make your life easier or my life easier. They're there to protect the "common good" as cacinok pointed out.......and the "common good" doesn't always agree with an individuals needs or desires. Oh....one other thing......this thread will die a quick death if "all LEOs are corrupt" posts start showing up. 
|
|
Quoted: I have found lots of good info on the forums here but one undercurrent that I don't understand is the recurring belief that the Police won't be on your side if things really go bad. Why is that? I will second the opinion of others that have said LE will do what they're told, so that they keep theirs jobs, feed their families and ultimately collect a pension. Can any of our Louisiana members confirm if there was a single NO officer who stood up and said no to Nagin's confiscation and mandatory evacuation orders? I sure didn't hear of any. I believe you can add the National Guard as well for the same reasons and also fear of court martial for disobeying orders. |
| Without doing a huge post, I will just say my last several interactions with LEO, under very ordinary conditions, have had a rather negative tone from the onset. The 1st words from my mouth were greeted with "who the hell would you be"..... "I bet" and " let me see some ID". This development seems to parallel the media referring to LEOs as "the authorities" and the public as "civilians", this following federal funding and state-wide federally required mandatory training. |
|
Heres a good one Illinois tell women to gag their self & throw up on your attacker
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMEKOr6DswM |
|
Quoted: take a look at what happened recently in south tx after the hurricane. some peeps bugged in, but the local judge decided that all should leave the island regardless of how prepared they were.Quoted: Second, they may be under orders to remove you (and everybody else) from your neightborhood. If you are sufficently prepped, you won't like that. Please educate me here...I've been thinking about this for a while. What happened in Katrina might be a good indication (but I don't know what did happen in this circumstance). So, lets say you've decided to bug in...you move all vehicles/signs of life to the back yard/side yard. Board up the windows. No smoke (chimney) - basically no signs of life. Are the police, in this role, going to knock and go away or kick the door in to see if someone is hiding inside? Ransack an empty house looking for supplies? |
|
Quoted:
So, lets say you've decided to bug in...you move all vehicles/signs of life to the back yard/side yard. Board up the windows. No smoke (chimney) - basically no signs of life. Are the police, in this role, going to knock and go away or kick the door in to see if someone is hiding inside? Ransack an empty house looking for supplies?
I've been studing this for some time now, and the answer is more complex than you would expect. There is no difinitive answer, and some of it depends on state law. Here's one link for you: http://128.32.29.133/disasters.php?categoryID=1 When FEMA gets involved, shit gets REALLY confusing because depending on who the area commander is will determine how federal law is interpreted. The prevaling attitude seems to be that FEMA can do whatever FEMA wants to do, all laws be damned. Various state laws seem to actually say that out loud, but nobody seems to notice. Louisiana, in the last legislative session, finally defined Compulsory Evacuation. The text of the bill is fairly straightforward. www.legis.louisiana.gov/billdata/streamdocument.asp?did=498846 The way I read that, if there is a compusory evacuation, the law allows officers to come into your home and kill you and be immune from prosecution. I've been told that my view on that is 'radical', and 'would never happen', but you read the law and tell me if I'm wrong. Shane (2) A person who refuses to comply with a mandatory evacuation order may
29 remain in his home and not be forcibly removed from his home; however, all public 30 services are suspended during a mandatory evacuation, and anyone failing to comply1 with a mandatory evacuation order may not be rescued or provided other lifesaving 2 assistance. During a hurricane, a person failing to comply with evacuation orders 3 may not be rescued or provided other lifesaving assistance after the onset of and 4 during tropical storm winds or higher at the Louisiana coast. Now, they might just interpret that law to mean that they can come in, double tap to the head, and be in the clear as long as they don't drag you out afterwards...... but I'm thinking that may be a stretch. |
|
Quoted:
So, lets say you've decided to bug in...you move all vehicles/signs of life to the back yard/side yard. Board up the windows. No smoke (chimney) - basically no signs of life. Are the police, in this role, going to knock and go away or kick the door in to see if someone is hiding inside? Ransack an empty house looking for supplies?
When FEMA gets involved, shit gets REALLY confusing because depending on who the area commander is will determine how federal law is interpreted. The prevaling attitude seems to be that FEMA can do whatever FEMA wants to do, all laws be damned. The way I read that, if there is a compusory evacuation, the law allows officers to come into your home and kill you and be immune from prosecution. I've been told that my view on that is 'radical', and 'would never happen', but you read the law and tell me if I'm wrong. Shane Disheartening to read Shane. Really makes it hard to determine what to do. Put a sign on the front door not to enter? Shoot anyone who comes through the door? Firefight the cops if that's who it is? I mean, if I choose to bug in to my own place, lock it down and they break in...if they are fending for themselves, so should I be, right? |
|
Quoted:
SHTF+ Cops= corrupt police Sooner or later they'll do whatever they have to do to survive, including following anti constitutional orders to preserve their jobs, steal, etc- at least most of them will. FerFAL Maybe in your country bud... I have no idea what the LEO's in your country are sworn to do. But I would caution you about making blanket statements such as this. I have sworn an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. This includes the 4th Amendment. The oath I took as a LEO 16 years ago, was very similar to the oath I took as an 18 yr old kid, when being sworn into the United States Marine Corps. You have no idea what I would do, or not do. You have never met me, nor I you. To state that during a SHTF incident, I will become corrupt is upsetting and insulting. Was there issues with the way NOLA was handled during Katrina? Of course there was. Many of the issues involved officers from other states, states where the ownership of firearms is much more restricted. Add into the mix the goatf&ck of FEMA, and you have the potential for issues. This was such an issue, that several states, and I believe the Feds, enacted laws to prevent this from happening again. Some of the officers in NOLA during Katrina were forced to decide between their work and their families, as they were not afforded any time to get their families out of harms way. The most resent hurricane scare for NOLA, this year, involved a new police chief. He afforded all members of his organization the chance to get their families out of the area. The percentage of officers who showed up for work during the incident was over 90% (don't have the exact figures handy now). As I previously stated FerFal, we don't know each other. What I do know is what I would do, and what I would permit the officers I am assigned to supervise to do. A SHTF incident does not change a thing. THe officers under my command will, and do, enforce the laws, statutes , and ordnances of the City and State in which we work. I will not, nor will I permit the officers under my command, violate the Constitution of the United States, to include teh 4th amendment. Now that I got that out of my system, the thing one must remember about the police in your area during a SHTF incident is that they will be overwhelmed. The larger and widespread the incident, the more their available resources will be stretched. Departments depend on "Mutual Aid" from other areas/agencies during major incidents. If this is not available because the other agencies are tied up with incidents in their own jurisdictions, then resources are stretched even more. What this means to you guys is if you have a need for an officer to come, they might not be available. You might have to protect yourselves. This is not a new concept for those who prep for SHTF incidents. That is what the many threads about weapons tend to center around. As upset as you might think you were while watching corrupt Cops during the Katrina incident, it pails in comparison to how MANY Officers around the nation felt watching the same thing. THis is because as any LEO will tell you, if one idiot or a$$hole does something bad, many in society are quick to generalize all Law Enforcement with those few who broke the very laws they had sworn to protect. I challenge anyone to show me a profession in which 100% of the individuals are of perfect moral character. You will always have a percentage of individuals who can make it through the toughest screening process. The trick is to always try to keep that percentage as low as possible, and to weed those out who you catch. To the OP's question reference Police and SHTF? My suggestion to anyone is to maintain a low profile, especially for the first week or two, and to keep your guard up. Do not expect the response you would normally get from your local Law Enforcement during an incident. If I have gone off on a tangent, I apologize to those many here who have offered me advise and encouragement over the last few years I have posted here. To those of you, I offer my heartfelt thanks, as you have increased the survival ability of my family by sharing your advice and knowledge. If some have issues with my profession and occupation, I am used to that. But do not think for one moment I will permit blanket statements such as assuming that I will become corrupt just because things have become "interesting" to go unchallenged. Over the years I have attended too many funerals of Officers who stood their ground when things "got interesting". It cost them their life. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
take a look at what happened recently in south tx after the hurricane. some peeps bugged in, but the local judge decided that all should leave the island regardless of how prepared they were.
Quoted:
Second, they may be under orders to remove you (and everybody else) from your neightborhood. If you are sufficently prepped, you won't like that. Please educate me here...I've been thinking about this for a while. What happened in Katrina might be a good indication (but I don't know what did happen in this circumstance). So, lets say you've decided to bug in...you move all vehicles/signs of life to the back yard/side yard. Board up the windows. No smoke (chimney) - basically no signs of life. Are the police, in this role, going to knock and go away or kick the door in to see if someone is hiding inside? Ransack an empty house looking for supplies? You kind of hit a nail on the head there didn't you? Who do you think you should worry more about, the Emergency Services folks who would help those folks carry their processions when ordered out or the guy who made the decision to get them out? Look at this recent election, how important it was and how few people voted? One of my favorite movie lines was from the miserably done Mel Gibson movie "The Patriot", "Why should I trade one tyrant a 1,000 miles away for a 1,000 tyrants a 100 miles way?" or close enough. Gentlemen I put to you if you aren't paying attention to where you live and what local government you have then come SHTF, you pretty much deserve what you will get. Those orders at NOLA Katrina didn't come from FEMA but NOLA Officials. It didn't even come from the Louisiana liberal woman governor who didn't have the guts to speak up. It took a long tall black general to take one look and see what a mess things were to simply step up, take charge, and set things right. What you know, that guy wore a uniform too. Cops are just people that have a job and wear a uniform. Think of them as such and not only will your preps be better but life in general. That uniform buys them nothing but that job does and its the job you need to worry about not the guy or the uniform. Tj |
|
Now, they might just interpret that law to mean that they can come in, double tap to the head, and be in the clear as long as they don't drag you out afterwards...... but I'm thinking that may be a stretch.
You missed: 3 (c)(i) "Forced evacuation" means an evacuation that may be ordered as a last 4 resort when a disaster or emergency has been declared and danger of loss of life is 5 imminent, and conditions exist that critically imperil or endanger the lives of those 6 in a defined area. During a forced evacuation, government officials may direct and 7 compel all persons in designated evacuation areas to relocate to safer locations for 8 their own safety. 9 (ii) A forced evacuation order shall apply to the public in general and may 10 include personnel designated as essential workforce or critical workforce. Forced 11 evacuations are designed for small geographic areas affected by a local emergency 12 or disaster. When a parish president determines that the size of the population or 13 geographic area to be evacuated during a forced evacuation exceeds the local 14 government's resources and capabilities to enforce the evacuation, he may request 15 the governor to issue a state-forced evacuation order. The governor may utilize the 16 national guard, state police, public safety agencies, or available federal agencies to 17 enforce the evacuation order. 18 (iii) No person who refuses to evacuate an evacuation area after a forced 19 evacuation order has been issued shall have a cause of action for damages, death, or 20 injury against the state or any political subdivision thereof, or other agencies, or the 21 agents, employees, or representatives of any of them. Shane |
|
There's quite a difference between "some" and "most."
True, but the difference is only found in the severity of the S that is HTF. The worse things get, the more and more officers stop performing 'public service' and are trying to survive themselves. That doesn't mean that they're there to make your life easier or my life easier. They're there to protect the "common good" as cacinok pointed out.......and the "common good" doesn't always agree with an individuals needs or desires.
Oh....one other thing......this thread will die a quick death if "all LEOs are corrupt" posts start showing up. 100% of LEO may not be corrupt, but 100% are corruptable. That's true not just for LEO, but for every human being. There simply comes a point when things are so bad that you will abandon your post and tend to your own survival needs. That's not good or bad, it just is. When the water starts rising, you're going to go save your own family before you try to save anyone else. Shane |
|
Just as an adder to this thread, if you paid close attention to the films, pictures, and stores from Texas, it was about as far from NOLA Katrina as one can get.
Though I disagreed heavily with many decisions made, seeing those cops on Crystal Beach carrying the peoples food home, the guys in plain uniform no tactical gear turning folks back on the bridge from going home sympathizing with the irate home owners, and all those looters being slammed in jail in Houston warmed my heart. If you think where you live and what tone of government you have in your area plays no role in these things, you are gravely mistaken. I have lived in seven states, major cities, high crime areas, and travel the US and the world. One of the reasons I live where I live is my LEOs are my neighbors. Their children play with our children. They even park their cop cars in their driveways. I don't envy you guys who live in the big city no more than I did all those law abiding folks in NOLA that suddenly had to deal with police from other states given BS orders to carry out. Tj |
|
Quoted:
Just as an adder to this thread, if you paid close attention to the films, pictures, and stores from Texas, it was about as far from NOLA Katrina as one can get. <SNIP> If you think where you live and what tone of government you have in your area plays no role in these things, you are gravely mistaken. Location and tone of government do have something to do with it, but Katrina was a lesson that paid off for Gustav and Ike. Look at the huge difference in response in Orleans Parish for Gustav. If Katrina happens again this year, it will be a completely different occourance. Shane |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
SHTF+ Cops= corrupt police Sooner or later they'll do whatever they have to do to survive, including following anti constitutional orders to preserve their jobs, steal, etc- at least most of them will. FerFAL Maybe in your country bud... I have no idea what the LEO's in your country are sworn to do. But I would caution you about making blanket statements such as this. Was there issues with the way NOLA was handled during Katrina? Of course there was. Many of the issues involved officers from other states, states where the ownership of firearms is much more restricted. div] That's what I was thinking thru this whole thread. I was sure I remembered hearing somthing about CHP and other California LEO's in LA after Katrina. |
|
Quoted:
100% of LEO may not be corrupt, but 100% are corruptable. That's true not just for LEO, but for every human being. There simply comes a point when things are so bad that you will abandon your post and tend to your own survival needs. That's not good or bad, it just is. When the water starts rising, you're going to go save your own family before you try to save anyone else. Shane But trying to "save your own family" is not the same as abusing the power that you're entrusted with in virtue of being a LEO. The LEOs who are/were trying to get themselves and their loved ones out of harms way aren't the same "corrupt police" that folks on the internet like to point at as being "the enemy", or some such. It may be the case that "everyone's corruptible" but even if that's true it doesn't really get us anywhere. The fact that everyone could be corrupted doesn't mean that everyone is in fact corrupt. Reminds of the interchange that (I believe) is attributed to Winston Churchill: Churchill: Madam, would you consent to sexual relations with me this evening for a sum of ten million pounds? Woman: Well, sir, I would be favorably disposed to that proposal. 
Churchill: Would you then agree to the same circumstance for twenty pounds? Woman: How dare you! What do you take me for? 
Churchill: Madam, we've already established what you are....now we're just haggling over the price. 
Perhaps it's the case that every LEO out there would let you and your family through the checkpoint ahead of others if you had a suitcase with $10 million in it that you could slide over discretely, but that's not really a realistic scenario. More in the realm of the hypothetical, no? I'm with Tj on this one.......I've known a lot of cops and former cops. I count a number of them as friends. I've even known a couple of "bad cops".....and I do mean bad cops. But the vast majority have been folks that try to give all people a fair shake and aren't going to be abusing their powers of office just because they can. My experience, FWIW, suggests that far more LEOs who will actually be working during a SHTF event will be cut from B-trashs's cloth.......guys and gals who are trying to do their jobs without trampling anybody's "rights" and then go home safe to their families when their shift ends. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
SHTF+ Cops= corrupt police Sooner or later they'll do whatever they have to do to survive, including following anti constitutional orders to preserve their jobs, steal, etc- at least most of them will. FerFAL Maybe in your country bud... I have no idea what the LEO's in your country are sworn to do. But I would caution you about making blanket statements such as this. I have sworn an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. This includes the 4th Amendment. The oath I took as a LEO 16 years ago, was very similar to the oath I took as an 18 yr old kid, when being sworn into the United States Marine Corps. You have no idea what I would do, or not do. You have never met me, nor I you. To state that during a SHTF incident, I will become corrupt is upsetting and insulting. Was there issues with the way NOLA was handled during Katrina? Of course there was. Many of the issues involved officers from other states, states where the ownership of firearms is much more restricted. Add into the mix the goatf&ck of FEMA, and you have the potential for issues. This was such an issue, that several states, and I believe the Feds, enacted laws to prevent this from happening again. Some of the officers in NOLA during Katrina were forced to decide between their work and their families, as they were not afforded any time to get their families out of harms way. The most resent hurricane scare for NOLA, this year, involved a new police chief. He afforded all members of his organization the chance to get their families out of the area. The percentage of officers who showed up for work during the incident was over 90% (don't have the exact figures handy now). As I previously stated FerFal, we don't know each other. What I do know is what I would do, and what I would permit the officers I am assigned to supervise to do. A SHTF incident does not change a thing. THe officers under my command will, and do, enforce the laws, statutes , and ordnances of the City and State in which we work. I will not, nor will I permit the officers under my command, violate the Constitution of the United States, to include teh 4th amendment. Now that I got that out of my system, the thing one must remember about the police in your area during a SHTF incident is that they will be overwhelmed. The larger and widespread the incident, the more their available resources will be stretched. Departments depend on "Mutual Aid" from other areas/agencies during major incidents. If this is not available because the other agencies are tied up with incidents in their own jurisdictions, then resources are stretched even more. What this means to you guys is if you have a need for an officer to come, they might not be available. You might have to protect yourselves. This is not a new concept for those who prep for SHTF incidents. That is what the many threads about weapons tend to center around. As upset as you might think you were while watching corrupt Cops during the Katrina incident, it pails in comparison to how MANY Officers around the nation felt watching the same thing. THis is because as any LEO will tell you, if one idiot or a$$hole does something bad, many in society are quick to generalize all Law Enforcement with those few who broke the very laws they had sworn to protect. I challenge anyone to show me a profession in which 100% of the individuals are of perfect moral character. You will always have a percentage of individuals who can make it through the toughest screening process. The trick is to always try to keep that percentage as low as possible, and to weed those out who you catch. To the OP's question reference Police and SHTF? My suggestion to anyone is to maintain a low profile, especially for the first week or two, and to keep your guard up. Do not expect the response you would normally get from your local Law Enforcement during an incident. If I have gone off on a tangent, I apologize to those many here who have offered me advise and encouragement over the last few years I have posted here. To those of you, I offer my heartfelt thanks, as you have increased the survival ability of my family by sharing your advice and knowledge. If some have issues with my profession and occupation, I am used to that. But do not think for one moment I will permit blanket statements such as assuming that I will become corrupt just because things have become "interesting" to go unchallenged. Over the years I have attended too many funerals of Officers who stood their ground when things "got interesting". It cost them their life. Hold your horses and straighten out your panties. I didn’t insult you. I applaud you dedication ( not being a smartass, I sincerely do ) but understand that I’ve seen and experienced differently, cops here have killed innocent people and even in your own country, during Katrina you saw them take away guns from people, even from that old lady. I know my country's police, I know the kind of cops USA has, and I know what I said. I’ve always had nothing but good things to say about USA military and law enforcement. I was talking about a) SHTF and B) About most cops.( don’t like the word most, lets say a significant number then) I’m saying what I said because that’s been my experience, hell I even got threatened by cops for not bribing them fast enough and there’s another Argy here at ar15.com that can easily back up my version of what cops are like around here. Why are they that way? Among the plethora of sworn duties and philosophy we could discuss, the end of the line is that they simply don’t get paid enough, and small bribes are something we’ve come to expect and accept. If a country goes down and corruption spreads, I’d expect cops to fall for it too, just like any other government worker, at least in numbers enough to be a problem. You being the exception along with many other thousands doesn’t do squat for me if a bunch of other bad cops have me on the floor with a knee on my neck while they take away my weapons, money or other private property. NOLA was just a tiny example of what happens when things get out of control. Good cops? Sure, two thumbs up. But the amount of bad cops, corrupt cops or cops and military following the wrong kind of orders would be a problem. FerFAL |
|
I had a rather different response all typed out.....but on thinking about it, I'm going in in this direction instead.
The issue of corruption amongst law enforcement officers in a SHTF event can be hashed out ad nauseum.......who, when, how many, under what circumstances, blah blah blah. This thread can really only go one way.......and I'm locking it so the Survival community doesn't have to suffer through that and so we don't lose valuable posters over this contentious topic. The OP's question was answered. |