Posted: 7/12/2008 6:26:07 PM EDT
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As this is overall a gunboard, I thought I would bring up this issue, as I am getting ready to buy a gas piston upper. I've seen it discussed before, but not recently. First of all, I think these have come of age, as there are several good manufacturers of them now. They are still a bit pricey, averaging around 1100 dollars. I know that one of the big reasons that many people in this forum prefer the AK or M1A/FAL to the AR for survival purposes (besides knockdown) is the reliability issue. Sure, a carefully maintained AR is great, and I have never had mine malfunction, but then again, I clean them after every shoot, and lube them nice, and basically pamper them. Any AKs I shoot or even my M1A, I give a quick barrel swab, and clean the action real quick and its ready to go. Actually, I would still feel comfortable carrying the M1A/AK/FAL types, even if I couldn't clean them for several month and they had seen a decent amount of action. Question is: Barring cost, Does the gas piston upper fix these problems? (yes I know you can buy 2 good AKs or a very nice regular AR, or a standard M1A for the price of the gas piston upper alone, but that aside....) The AR platform is the model of flexibility and modularity, almost to the point that we forget practicality. Would you be comfortable with a gas piston upper AR in a SHTF situation where your life could depend on it? as comfortable as you would with a regular AR? or an AK? |
No . My FAL carbine may be heavier then an AR ,but I like my chances with a shortened barrel and those nice litle 150 grain core lockt soft point .308 bullets. I'll never be a "sniper" or an "operator" . I also can't carry 5 guns at once ,and I can't call for back up /artillery/air support. I'm on my own ,and I'm comfortable with what I've chosen. Not necessarily the best at anything ,but competative all the way accross the board. |
I have to agree with Ops on this one. If I am EVER in a situation where I need more than part of one magazine to take care of any problem, I am probably not long for this world. Oh, and I like the FAL. Doc |
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I went to one of Hoffners Tactical Pistol/Rifle classes and put over 1300 rds through my franken-AR in 2 days with no cleaning and ZERO malfunctions of any kind. While I would like to have a gas piston upper just as a ""just in case" deal, I think I'll wait for the Osprey system to come out. I saw this at SHOT this year and was very impressed. Osprey Gas Piston |
+1 DocGP knows of what he speaks. |
| The correct gas piston upper clearly takes care of the most serious issues with the AR15 platform like shitting where it eats, dirt, mud, and heat. The only problem I see with the pistons guns is the lack of availbility for replacement parts in a SHTF situation. Unless you have several of the same piston uppers you could run into a parts shortage. If the military changes to and standardizes a piston upper this problem will fix itself, if not than you will have 12 differant systems out there and no 2 will be the same. IMHO the correct piston upper on the AR15 would create the best rifle platform available. For the time being I think the best option is the current AR15 platform. Part of a SHTF situation might include a long range shot of 300 yards at small game and you probably won't hit it at that distance with a AK47, the AR15 stands a good chance. |
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I've come to the conclusion, as have others here, that piston conversions are a solution looking for a real problem. IMO the idea that AR's can't be "shot dirty" is overblown. If the DI system was as fouling as some critics charge, there would be a lot more outcry for troops in the field. Excepting the early days of M16 use in Vietnam, the system has proven reliable under a wide variety of conditions. I've even tested the reliability waters with my own RRA carbine. I'll squirt it with lube now and then but haven't actually cleaned it in approximately 700-800 rounds. No problems so far. To the OP, can you foresee a survival scenario where you'll fire more than that between cleanings? Or before a zombie hordes get you first? As an aside, I think a lot of the AR reliability bashing comes from Kalashnikov enthusiasts. They really have nothing else to promote their chosen system over the AR except for this issue and perhaps the 7.62x39mm cartridge vs. 5.56mm NATO. So it gets beat to death on the 'net. Here's how I see the whole piston AR situation:
So getting back to the OP's question, "Would you be comfortable with a gas piston upper AR in a SHTF situation where your life could depend on it? as comfortable as you would with a regular AR? or an AK," yes I would of course use a piston AR but would feel just as comfortable with my current DI weapon. Along with a lot more ammo and magazines. *This appears to be a SOCOM-driven design element. They appear to be the ones who use sustained amounts of FA fire more than anyone else. IMO why not use an updated, shoulder-fired variant of the M231 port-firing weapon? It used an open bolt mechanism to keep rounds from cooking-off at a 1200rpm rate of fire. If such a weapon wouldn't provide SF with all the firepower they could want, I don't know what could. 
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No matter how ya cut it, the AR design does not run as long before failure when a dirty weapon is the culprit. Most of us have been around military rifles for most of our adult lives, and know this to be true. If you don't, then it might be because you clean your weapons often enough not to know how long you can go without cleaning. My question to these guys is "What are you going to do when you run out of cleaning solvents and oil after SHTF?" Shooting a gun on the range and taking home to clean it and put it away is not the same thing as living with a rifle. Spend a week in the woods, taking your rifle with you. Shoot a few mags off every day. Do this in the winter and summer-both have their problems. I've taken freshly cleaned and lubed AR's out in 10 degree weather and had function problems because the oil was too thick. In the summer dust and crap gets in everywhere. I got tired of my rifles not working and bought my first piston gun-I don't think I'll ever buy another non-piston gun again. The first time I took my Robinson XCR out, it was 10 degrees. It has never failed to go bang, never malfunctioned. I shot it with only the lube it came with for the first 1400 rounds and didn't bother cleaning it either. Unlike an AR, piston guns don't get as picky when shooting dirty ammo like Silver Bear and Wolf. I know for a fact that none of the three AR's I've owned could handle a weekend of shooting with Wolf, then be expected to shoot again without issue a week later with no cleaning. |
The military forces soldiers to clean their weapons and has a long logistics train to make sure they have plenty of supplies to do so. Similarly, when a soldier's M16 fails, they replace the rifle and get it to the armorer for repair. Maybe they might have to replace the soldier too. |
Do they clean the weapons during the middle of a firefight? Or even during the course of a protracted battle, when shooting can erupt at any moment? Or how about all those soldiers and Marines who are reporting a lack of cleaning equipment right now in OEF and OIF? We've even seen requests for same here at this site. Yet I'm not hearing about casualties from jammed M16's and M4's. |
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I did not clean my new Rock River until after the first 500 rnds. I wanted to see if it would fail. I shot a random mix of Wolf, AE and XM193. The only failure I had was a brass case jammed in the chamber after shooting some Wolf due to the carbon build up. (common problem) So to answer your question - A properly designed gas piston would be a superior weapon but I'm not going to spend any money upgrading what I have. If a buy another, I would heavily consider it. |
+1 non standard parts will make repairs iffy at best in the field, not to mention expensive to stock. in a SHTF event sustained gun battles are simply not going to be happening <if they are one guy with a rifle isn't going to last long> take the extra money spent on the piston upper and buy cleaning gear and ammo. the only benifit i have seen is shooting suppressed. they DO make a difference in cleanliness quickly with a can. that in mind no reason you shouldn't be able to find the time to clean every 5-600 rounds. |
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Unless its the HK or LWRC, I wouldn't trust one of the countless xyz brand piston conversions due to propietary parts etc. I'll continue to use whatever the majority of the US Mil uses (Carbine length DI). DI has been proven reliable up to 6,000 rounds before failure (20 D-Days back to back). |
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FWIW, I'd want something as close as possible to a battle-proven military weapon. I'd be comfortable with any of the following after a few hundred rounds: AR15, AK, FAL, M1, M14/M1A, G3/HK91/PTR91, etc. YMMV. Except for some short-stroking with Wolf when I used a non mil-spec (extra power) buffer spring, all my ARs have been 100%. I've been thinking about quitting cleaning one of them to see how long it will run. |
There was an interesting article in SWAT Magazine, August 2008 issue, by Pat Rogers. Here is a quote from a photo caption from that article titled "Life in a Faster Lan", which chronicled a Trident Concepts carbine course:
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To me whether you a gas piston upper or direct gas impingment system is not an issue. I would avoid a firefight at all possible costs. To save the money and buy more ammo or other supplies.
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I looked at the Osprey website and that design looks interesting. It doesn't say how they deal with the force applied to the gas key. Other systems that have tried the direct pushrod to gas key set up usually end up breaking from the gas key being torn off the top of the bolt carrier. Maybe Osprey has figured out a work around. As to the OP's question, I would suggest sticking to the DI setup of a standard carbine. At training courses I have noticed that problems occur from other areas first before a dirty weapon becomes anywhere near an issue. IMO the #1 problem for the AR style rifle is bad magazines. Second would be extractor/bolt problems or lack of lubrication. Maybe the occasional poor gas key staking job fits in there somewhere also. If I was just setting up a new AR for SHTF I would buy quality magazines with magpul followers (or magpul mags) and I would buy a quality bolt from LMT or Bravo Co. and then keep the gun well lubed. Extra dollars would be best spent on ammo and training. |
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To the OP, good question. I have been thinking about an XCR, and making my current Bushy my back-up AR. Does anybody have an XCR, and do you like it? Sorry for hijack. Also, I think this might turn into another house divided thing, like the 45 guys and the Glock guys. -Green |
Got an XCR, like it a lot. It's a little heavier than I like (coming from a Carbon15) but it's not heavy for a .223 carbine. Even without the caliber change capability, it's worth having. You can get 6.5, 6.8, and 7.63x39 now, the conversions are $550 each. This rifle has good accuracy and positive, clean action. It's been everything I wanted in a battle rifle, I just wish it was as light as the 4lb C15. 
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It's funny how this subject about gas piston uppers for the AR/M16 comes and goes every so many years. Ever since the adoption of the M16, there has been talk of converting it to a piston/cylinder gas system. Not only has the military experimented with these systems, but they have been offered to the civilian market for some time as well. Remember the Rhino system back in the 1970's? It was a user installed gas system conversion from the DI system to a piston/cylinder type. It wasn't around long, but there was a lot of talk about it back then. I don't have an axe to grind regarding of any of these gas systems. I've been happy with the DI in all of my AR's and never had any particular problems with any of the M16's I've used either. On the other hand, I'm intrigued with the various piston/cylinder gas system conversions for the AR/M16 as well. It is interesting to note that there are many high dollar conversions being offered as replacement systems by several companies, yet a country like South Korea managed to quietly create and field their own successful system in the Daewoo K-2. And they did so without any of the apparent fanfare and high dollar costs. The best of the AK and AR18, combined with the best of the M16. You gotta admire the practicality there. By all accounts, they have fielded a reliable and accurate weapon. I'm just stating what appears obvious: The US Military has been reluctant to make the switch to any new gas system for the M16, and until they do, these systems will just remain a novelty among us civilian shooters. So, the bottom line as far as I'm concerned is that I'll stick with my DI systems until such time as the Military sees fit to make the change. Parts for the DI system are everywhere, and that should be a major concern for anyone considering the AR/M16 as a survival weapon. Just my $.223 cents worth, YMMV.... |
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One important thing to consider is that all piston guns are not created equal. Just because it has a piston doesn't mean it's an AK47. I think one thing we have learned is that ARs need lube, period. Think about this - a piston AR has more moving parts, and parts that can break, than a DI gun. If you plan on running an AR, keep lots of little bottles of Slip2000 around. |